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chadenej
01-06-2008, 15:55
Hello,

If I'm wondering if the Emperor of Mankind was a genius, it's because there's no formal clue that He was.

Let's begin with His bio :
He was born in Anatoly, 8000 BC. He reveal Himself to the Mankind in ~28000. Fluff telling, He didn't invent so much things, apart from the Astartes.
Speaking of our time of period 8000 BC to 2000 AD, all major inventions were the fact of known men. I read somewhere that the flame-thwrower was an Emperor invention... that's a bit short for the biggest spirit of all time no ? But in the other hand, I read He was behind all the major inventions, as a counselor, apprentice or hidden master.

About the Astartes, there is stated in one of the HH books (if I remember well) that He created them with the help of the best scientists of the period. Maybe He just was a sort of "director of program"? Or something like that? Did He said "I want this", and the scientists, with all their knowledge, did all the job?

I mean, to be the Emperor request "just" to have the most powerful physiology a man could have (be immortal and sickproof...), and be the most potent psyker of all time (see the true nature of the Warp, and then be able to lead Mankind to survive...), not have a 200+ IQ.

Could it be possible that the Emperor was after all, a man with an average intellect? Was His experience of life (more than 40000 years of life!) giving Him His wisdom, and not an über-intellect?

Ashnari Doomsong
01-06-2008, 16:19
Yes. Yes, he was.

Daemonslave
01-06-2008, 16:28
If you look at us today and compare us with people from as little as 20 years ago, we would appear geniuses. The advancement of computers and mobile phones, etc has improved massively.

If the knowledge of how to make computers and phones was then lost with only one guy remembering how to make them (maybe not completely, but he knew a lot about their construction) then he would appear a genius.

The Emperor remembers a lot of information, information that was lost during the DAoT and now that he is explaining how thing worked he is coming across as a genius when really his intellect is quite normal. He is more knowledgeable, but not necessarily more intelligent.

ZiggyTempest
01-06-2008, 16:41
If you look at us today and compare us with people from as little as 20 years ago, we would appear geniuses. The advancement of computers and mobile phones, etc has improved massively.

If the knowledge of how to make computers and phones was then lost with only one guy remembering how to make them (maybe not completely, but he knew a lot about their construction) then he would appear a genius.

The Emperor remembers a lot of information, information that was lost during the DAoT and now that he is explaining how thing worked he is coming across as a genius when really his intellect is quite normal. He is more knowledgeable, but not necessarily more intelligent.

So you would feel like a genius if you met Einstein or Newton?

I think he was at least above average intelligence but probably not a genius. He just had a lot of experience and wisdom.

Sephtar II
01-06-2008, 16:42
I would say that he was. The fact that he didn't scatter great inventions across history is probably something to do with staying hidden until needed. He did design the golden throne himself if i recall correctly (feel free to correct if not) and he then united all of humanity across the universe (more or less). He understood the threat of chaos and was working on a way to stop it that scared the bejeesus out of the chaos gods.

heretics bane
01-06-2008, 17:01
Well being around for a long and his ability of fore-site he could invent stuff to combat future events when no one else would know until they happened. And he did bio-engineer super-humans, build the golden throne, create a way into the webway(which IIRC the Eldat and Old ones know how the thing works)

So yeah he must be pretty intelligent as he probebly had them thousands of years of studying.

DapperAnarchist
01-06-2008, 17:41
I think he was able to give the impression of being a genius, much like Professor Xavier in Ultimate X-Men, who simply raids the memories of other humans for the skills he needs, such as surgery. He was of course massively knowledgable - but thats not genius, or else the Encyclopedia Britannica would be more intelligent than most of us. Well, not really, but you see my point.

Daemonslave
01-06-2008, 18:09
So you would feel like a genius if you met Einstein or Newton?



Well having studied Mathematics at degree level and knowing of the basics surrounding subatomic behaviour and such things, fields of study that were unknown in Newtons age (and just getting started in Einsteins), I might come across as being very intelligent because I know more than someone who himself was a genius.

In my opinion, genius is the ability to create new ideas and concepts. I don't think the Emperor invented much of the science he used, he merely recalled it from memory/data that he has stored somewhere. For all we know, the Emperor could have a partial STC memory core built into his brain, something that could have been possible during the Golden Age of Technology.

Alpharius
01-06-2008, 18:22
I'd say he was.

But given all that, and his amazing psychic abilities, he was, at the core, still human, with human frailties as well.

Hence, his blind spot regarding his 'sons' and the Heresy...

Kandarin
01-06-2008, 19:00
There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom.

TCB
01-06-2008, 19:01
If by genius you mean "intelligent" then yes, he was the most intelligent human being ever to exist.

If by genius you mean successful, then yet again he is probably the most successful human ever, lifting humanity out of a grim dark age back into a strong, functioning empire. However, he did make mistakes by placing too much trust in his primarchs (especially Horus) and initially hesitating during when the Heresy broke out.

MrBigMr
01-06-2008, 19:13
I've always thought the Emperor to be a mere man with superpowers. He might have had great spiritual insight and knowledge of things old and new, but non the less he was a man. I would view his as more like Jesus or Ghandi than MacGyver or anything like that. He was far from some logical machine. He, after thousands of years witnessing human errors and frailties, he was not able to overcome them when they happened to him himself. It's like a non-magical version of the old "a seer can see everyoneelses future except their own" or the fairly common "I'll succeed in what everyone else has failed, because I'm better than them".

DarkMatter2
01-06-2008, 20:08
He was both a "genetically advantaged post-human" and, quite frankly, a mind so powerful that calling it genius is missing the point - his consciousness seems to envelop the entire galaxy.

Lisiecki
01-06-2008, 20:36
Depends? was he a genus at technology? others have brought that up.
Was Jesus, a genius?
was Siddhartha Guatama?
was Muhammad?
Hell, was ghengis kahn?
was alexander the macedonian?

these are all men who changed the world (or at least significant portions of it
did any of them invent ANYTHING mechinacial (no, really, did they? i mean they may have, but i dont know about it

Deus Mechanicus
01-06-2008, 20:50
was alexander the macedonian?

Yes, Alexander was the Macedonian.

Lisiecki
01-06-2008, 20:58
Ohh good one ;)
better use of commas next time



Yes, Alexander was the Macedonian.

chadenej
01-06-2008, 21:25
Ok let's talk about this one :
the Emperor knew the true nature of Chaos, He knew Chaos was malign and He knew about the existence of Chaos Gods, and what Chaos can do on mere humans, even men with an iron willpower.
So how did He not imagined that Horus, or whatever Primarch, could turn against Him, with all the consequences a rebel Astartes legion can do?

If He got an higher than average intellect, He'll just did not give all this power in the hands of one, just to prevent this things to happen, "in case of". Maybe He was just a man, He could not foresee/plan everything for everybody...

Condottiere
01-06-2008, 21:48
At a minimum, the Emperor was brilliant. He may have been a genius in planning and organization. He was undoubtedly charismatic.

He may not need to be a genius at technological development, just be able to recognize potential when he sees it.

Lisiecki
01-06-2008, 21:55
genius =/= omniscient

Was the emperior aware that theres was something not so good in the warp?
Yes

the Emperor knew the true nature of Chaos,
possibly could you site a source?

He knew about the existence of Chaos Gods,
ummm maybe

and what Chaos can do on mere humans, even men with an iron willpower
Umm how do you figure, untill you encounter what Chaos will do to men of iron will power then how could he know?
Are you saying that the Emp should have known what Chaos would do to Marines BEFORE they encountered it, or are you saying that once they encountered it, that he should have gone back in time and stopped it from happening

genius =/= omniscient




Ok let's talk about this one :
the Emperor knew the true nature of Chaos, He knew Chaos was malign and He knew about the existence of Chaos Gods, and what Chaos can do on mere humans, even men with an iron willpower.
So how did He not imagined that Horus, or whatever Primarch, could turn against Him, with all the consequences a rebel Astartes legion can do?

If He got an higher than average intellect, He'll just did not give all this power in the hands of one, just to prevent this things to happen, "in case of". Maybe He was just a man, He could not foresee/plan everything for everybody...

MrBigMr
01-06-2008, 21:56
Heh, I just remembered an advert I once saw in a magazine. There was this guy, dressed up like Einstein next to a black board with numbers and he was looking very ponderous. The text of the advert said "Even he doesn't know how women can at the same time have too little clothes and closets."

MvS
01-06-2008, 22:00
By any normal measure of course the Emperor was a genius. He wasn't even human in the sense that matters to this discussion.

His genius was a product of his nature. It's like asking if a greater daemon or minor god is a genius.

He might not have been a particularly bright god, but he was certainly the most knowledgeable, wise and inventive 'human' ever to walk the earth.

In fact his older imagery suggests that he chose to stay 'behind the scenes' as it were, guiding others to great discoveries, being like Merlin to King Arthur, or Aristotle to Alexander. In fact his original 'fluff' stated that he guided many of the scientific discoveries that led to Warp travel and the colonisation of the galaxy. Indeed, the Mechanicum of Mars would not have declard him the Omnissiah - the messiah/avatar of the Machine God - if the Emperor wasn't at the very least more a knowledgeable and creative thinker than even the highest ranking Fabricators of the entire Cult of Mars.

So yes. As far as the designation means anything to someone who wasn't 'just' human, the Emperor was a genius.

Condottiere
01-06-2008, 22:03
Heh, I just remembered an advert I once saw in a magazine. There was this guy, dressed up like Einstein next to a black board with numbers and he was looking very ponderous. The text of the advert said "Even he doesn't know how women can at the same time have too little clothes and closets."

That's really good.

Maybe they're trying to find the portal to Narnia.:angel:

No, I doubt that the Emperor was omniscient, because than he would be the Creator.;)

Lisiecki
01-06-2008, 22:10
Damned Imperal Cult

We Marines know the truth

The Emperor was but a man

A man who would rock you like a hurricane

But still a man


By any normal measure of course the Emperor was a genius. He wasn't even human in the sense that matters to this discussion.

His genius was a product of his nature. It's like asking if a greater daemon or minor god is a genius.

He might not have been a particularly bright god, but he was certainly the most knowledgeable, wise and inventive 'human' ever to walk the earth.

In fact his older imagery suggests that he chose to stay 'behind the scenes' as it were, guiding others to great discoveries, being like Merlin to King Arthur, or Aristotle to Alexander. In fact his original 'fluff' stated that he guided many of the scientific discoveries that led to Warp travel and the colonisation of the galaxy. Indeed, the Mechanicum of Mars would not have declard him the Omnissiah - the messiah/avatar of the Machine God - if the Emperor wasn't at the very least more a knowledgeable and creative thinker than even the highest ranking Fabricators of the entire Cult of Mars.

So yes. As far as the designation means anything to someone who wasn't 'just' human, the Emperor was a genius.

MvS
01-06-2008, 22:17
On the contrary, the Emperor wasn't 'just a man'. The marines that believe this are still following the doctrine of the 'Imperial Truth', which isn't necessarily the... er... truth. :)

The Emperor was more than a man in every way. He was an amalgamation of all the most powerful psykers who had existed from the moment humans became humans up until their death and rebirth into one vessel, the New Man. This 'new Man' then lived for tens of thousands of years, learning all the time, adding to his memories that already stretched back to the dawn of humanity as a species. He could perhaps use his powers to enhance his brain if he wished, like biomancers can alter their physiology.

The Imperial Cult portrayed him as an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent god - which of course he wasn't. This doesn't mean that he wasn't a god by any other 40K measure. He was much more powerful than the Primarchs, and we are told that the primarchs could beat Avatars of Khaine to death...

The rest of the stuff about the Emperor as the New Man is not part of the Imperial Cult dogma.

Lisiecki
01-06-2008, 22:20
True
but my tooled up wolf lord can take out an avatar of Khaine ;P


The Imperial Cult portrayed him as an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent god - which of course he wasn't. This doesn't mean that he wasn't a god by any other 40K measure. He was much more powerful than the Primarchs, and we are told that the primarchs could beat Avatars of Khaine to death...

MvS
01-06-2008, 22:23
True
but my tooled up wolf lord can take out an avatar of Khaine ;P
Game rules and background imagery... oil and water.

Most of the time at least.

Hell I've seen Khaelis Ra killed by a heavy bolter during a game.

Lisiecki
01-06-2008, 22:44
Oh im aware ;)
IT was just getting a bit serious in here
It was that or a fart joke



Game rules and background imagery... oil and water.

Most of the time at least.

Hell I've seen Khaelis Ra killed by a heavy bolter during a game.

lequaye
01-06-2008, 22:51
You have to look at where humanity was when the Emperor came out from the shadows and rose to power. Humanity on Earth was cut off from the rest of the Galaxy and had turned into a barbaric race of roaming war bands. Most technology had been lost or was seen as sorcery and there was definitely no clear organisations or institutions. The Emperor had the wisdom and charisma to join the disparate clans of Earth and also rediscover large amounts of the lost technology in a relatively short time. He then had the good sense to make pacts with Mars, create the Astarte's and then head out on the unimaginably large task of the Great Crusade, which was almost complete in only 200 years!

On top of that the Emperor designed the Astronomican, discovered the entrance to the Eldar web way under the Imperial Palace and had the force of will to prevent the Chaos Gods drenching his soul with daemonic minions. This last point I feel shows how brilliant his mind was. If a human soul is like a small candle in the warp, a pycher is a glowing beacon attracting the attention of large numbers of daemons eager to feed on their mind a push their way into the material universe. The Emperor's powers where many times greater than any Human past or present (ok Magnus the Red may be near and also Malcador the Sigillite) He was a beacon of light which blighted the Chaos gods in the warp and for all their attempts they could not dent his iron will. their last resort was to turn to Horus and turn him instead.

With a CV like this how could you not say the Emperor was not a Genius? The simple fact that he instituted many social changes, he eradicated blind faith and introduced practicality and rationality shows this. Can you imagin one person bringing the Earth together in a mater of a few decades at present, let alone during the age of strife?

Lol, having said all that however, he was a mutant with a talent for foresight, so is the word genius even a word that can be used to describe him? Mind you he was no God either...

DapperAnarchist
01-06-2008, 23:06
Magnus, maybe, but the Emperor could whup Malcador in his sleep - similar power level, but the stamina is what counts (thats what...etc). Malcador was on the Throne for some small length of time. Compare to - 10,000 years. Can I get that again? Is that 100 centuries, 10 millenia, nearly twice the age of the oldest known buildings? Thats some power...

lequaye
01-06-2008, 23:17
lol, true, true... Malcador was a very powerful psychic (was he a clone of the Emperor, I'm sure I read that some where) But yep he did wimp out when it came to sitting on the Golden Throne after only a short time. However does that not just go to show how powerful the Emperor was?

Eldartank
01-06-2008, 23:48
Actually, the Emperor was not a genius. He was far from it. The Emperor suffered from a lower than average I.Q., was severely learning disabled, and had attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. He dropped out before finishing grammar school, and spent much of his youth panhandling in various major cities.

:)

Sharkydave
02-06-2008, 01:00
Genius means many things to many people, and there all kinds of genius, from artistic to mathematical to military. For the Emperor to have united humanity across the galaxy, I think you have to admit he had a genius for something.

Emperor's Grace
02-06-2008, 01:47
On the contrary, the Emperor wasn't 'just a man'. The marines that believe thi are still following the doctrine of the 'Imperial Truth', which isn't necessarily the... er... truth. :)

The Emperor was more than a man in every way. He was an amalgamation of all the most powerful psykers who had existed from the moment humans became humans up until their death and rebirth into one vessel, the New Man. This 'nw Man' then lived for tens of thousands of years, learning all the time, adding to his memories that already stretched back to the dawn of humanity as aspecies. He could use his powers to enhance his brain if he wished, like biomancers can alter their physiology.

The Imperial Cult portrayed him as an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent god - which of course he wasn't. This doesn't mean that he wasn't a god by any other 40K measure. He was much more powerful than the Primarchs, and we are told that the primarchs could beat Avatars of Khaine to death...

The rest of the stuff about the Emperor as the New Man is not part of the Imperial Cult dogma.

I'm with you on everything but the bolded sentence. Certainly a possibility, but but I've not seen it established (unless there's something I missed...).

In simplest terms, it's "many hands make light work". :D

He wasn't just one bright guy, he had an auditorium full of bright guys in his head. Just imagine the "collective IQ" as being the real genius...

Dragonlv8
02-06-2008, 02:36
Genius means many things to many people, and there all kinds of genius, from artistic to mathematical to military. For the Emperor to have united humanity across the galaxy, I think you have to admit he had a genius for something.

He created a new type of Genius, he was a genius of saving humanity.
Any one else a genius their?

Captain Stern
02-06-2008, 04:10
He was an amalgamation of all the most powerful psykers who had existed from the moment humans became humans up until their death and rebirth into one vessel, the New Man..

That's still an assumption after almost two decades of 40K background. It might actually be contradictory given what was written in Lost and the Damned, which hasn't been contradicted since.

What exactly the Emperor was, and what his limitations might have been, is still up for debate. However, given that he had to thwart the machinations of the chaos powers for tens of thousands of years single handedly, we do know that he had to have been superhumanly intelligent, to the point where his mind could cope with fighting tactical battles with galacticly powerful beings. His intelligence, therefore, must have been beyond human.

However, I like to think that certain individuals must have popped up throughout history who exhibited some quality, or came up with an important new idea or discipline, that either exceeded or elluded the Emperor in some way for any given reason. He didn't create the primarchs alone after all. Moses, Christ, Mohamed, Tesla, De Vinci, Africanus, Ben Gurion, Conan, Napoleon, Hitler, Khan and the rest (highly disputable list, I realise) might have been such people. I think it's cool to think that Horus, Russ, Guilleman et al had the blood of Napoleon and Einstein running through their veins.

Ghost Of Caliban
02-06-2008, 04:20
Hello,

If I'm wondering if the Emperor of Mankind was a genius, it's because there's no formal clue that He was.

Let's begin with His bio :
He was born in Anatoly, 8000 BC. He reveal Himself to the Mankind in ~28000. Fluff telling, He didn't invent so much things, apart from the Astartes.
Speaking of our time of period 8000 BC to 2000 AD, all major inventions were the fact of known men. I read somewhere that the flame-thwrower was an Emperor invention... that's a bit short for the biggest spirit of all time no ? But in the other hand, I read He was behind all the major inventions, as a counselor, apprentice or hidden master.

About the Astartes, there is stated in one of the HH books (if I remember well) that He created them with the help of the best scientists of the period. Maybe He just was a sort of "director of program"? Or something like that? Did He said "I want this", and the scientists, with all their knowledge, did all the job?

I mean, to be the Emperor request "just" to have the most powerful physiology a man could have (be immortal and sickproof...), and be the most potent psyker of all time (see the true nature of the Warp, and then be able to lead Mankind to survive...), not have a 200+ IQ.

Could it be possible that the Emperor was after all, a man with an average intellect? Was His experience of life (more than 40000 years of life!) giving Him His wisdom, and not an über-intellect?

uh where is it stated he was born in 8000 bc?

shadowhawk2008
02-06-2008, 05:23
You have to look at where humanity was when the Emperor came out from the shadows and rose to power. Humanity on Earth was cut off from the rest of the Galaxy and had turned into a barbaric race of roaming war bands. Most technology had been lost or was seen as sorcery and there was definitely no clear organisations or institutions. The Emperor had the wisdom and charisma to join the disparate clans of Earth and also rediscover large amounts of the lost technology in a relatively short time. He then had the good sense to make pacts with Mars, create the Astarte's and then head out on the unimaginably large task of the Great Crusade, which was almost complete in only 200 years!

On top of that the Emperor designed the Astronomican, discovered the entrance to the Eldar web way under the Imperial Palace and had the force of will to prevent the Chaos Gods drenching his soul with daemonic minions. This last point I feel shows how brilliant his mind was. If a human soul is like a small candle in the warp, a pycher is a glowing beacon attracting the attention of large numbers of daemons eager to feed on their mind a push their way into the material universe. The Emperor's powers where many times greater than any Human past or present (ok Magnus the Red may be near and also Malcador the Sigillite) He was a beacon of light which blighted the Chaos gods in the warp and for all their attempts they could not dent his iron will. their last resort was to turn to Horus and turn him instead.

With a CV like this how could you not say the Emperor was not a Genius? The simple fact that he instituted many social changes, he eradicated blind faith and introduced practicality and rationality shows this. Can you imagin one person bringing the Earth together in a mater of a few decades at present, let alone during the age of strife?

Lol, having said all that however, he was a mutant with a talent for foresight, so is the word genius even a word that can be used to describe him? Mind you he was no God either...

Sadly the truth has been lost due to the Cult of the Immortal God-Emperor. The Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy have completely destroyed the principles that the Emperor stood for. The Imperium was supposed to be creative, inventive, always seeking to advance beyond its current state. But instead of pursuing knowledge and advancing scientific knowledge, the Imperium has stagnated to a point where they have lost several technological artifacts fromt the Great Crusade era, little to no technological advancement has been made, and those who do not "worship" the Emperor are "burned at the stake".

Aside from all that, I agree with you. Most Space Marine Chapters believe if was a very (very) powerful man, not a god, but a man still.

Captain Stern
02-06-2008, 06:00
Urgh! "The Emperor then Magnus and then Malcador the Sigillite."

No.

It's the Emperor, Magnus and the primarchs, and then whoever comes next, such as Malcador.

Condottiere
02-06-2008, 07:37
That's still an assumption after almost two decades of 40K background. It might actually be contradictory given what was written in Lost and the Damned, which hasn't been contradicted since.

What exactly the Emperor was, and what his limitations might have been, is still up for debate. However, given that he had to thwart the machinations of the chaos powers for tens of thousands of years single handedly, we do know that he had to have been superhumanly intelligent, to the point where his mind could cope with fighting tactical battles with galacticly powerful beings. His intelligence, therefore, must have been beyond human.

However, I like to think that certain individuals must have popped up throughout history who exhibited some quality, or came up with an important new idea or discipline, that either exceeded or elluded the Emperor in some way for any given reason. He didn't create the primarchs alone after all. Moses, Christ, Mohamed, Tesla, De Vinci, Africanus, Ben Gurion, Conan, Napoleon, Hitler, Khan and the rest (highly disputable list, I realise) might have been such people. I think it's cool to think that Horus, Russ, Guilleman et al had the blood of Napoleon and Einstein running through their veins.

This summarizes nicely how I feel, and I would like to thank the poster for saving me the effort of trying to type out somewhat similar thoughts on electronic media.;)

DapperAnarchist
02-06-2008, 09:52
uh where is it stated he was born in 8000 bc?

Realms Of Chaos. Lovely books. And its mentioned in the Horus Heresy books, isn't it? In the bit with the Saggitr ring, he says it was made near his home in Anatolia a little before he was born, with the implication that that time was about the same as when the first cities were being built, and things like zodiacs being invented.

stiltjet
02-06-2008, 10:47
How do we know the Emperor myth is not just propaganda?

I have read a fair lot of the 40k fluff, but sometimes I wonder if what is being told is actually true or just the way history is constructed.

Maybe there was never an Emperor like the one the fluff would have him be. Maybe his image just had to be created, as a symbol, to unite the human worlds across the galaxy?

Ooops, I better stop, this could be taken for heresy, could it not? :eek:

MvS
02-06-2008, 11:35
Captain Stern:

Your point is well made and taken. It has indeed been a long time since the Emperor's history and nature were discussed. Then again hints of the old RoC stuff has re-emerged from time to time in other places, whether it's just the very debateble depictions of him as dark haired (he MUST be Anatolian then!!) or references in the Horus Heresy novels that draw parallels with the older imagery.

I think that GW are preferring to keep the Emperor a bit mysterious for now, although this may not last. I remember when they used to say they would never explore the Horus Heresy or any of the 'Big' events in the 40K or Fantasy imageries because to do so would 'spoil the mystery'. That's mostly changed now, so perhaps we might get an Abnett novel on the Emperor one day, you never know... ;) :D

On topic, I still think that as far as it matters the Emperor was a genius, although as I said previously, and as others have pointed out as well, 'genius' tends to be a description of an otherwise 'normal' human with a remarkable intellect. The Emperor was so far from being a 'normal' human that the comparison doesn't raelly apply I feel.

Biomancy

As someone asked, biomancy has appeared relatively recently in the background as one of the psychic skills or paths or somesuch. They can manipulate their bodies, cells and even molecules if they are powerful and skilled enough and can concentrate long enough. They appear in the Dark Heresy stuff and in the Inquisitor imagery.

There are also telepaths, telekines, pyromancers (all self explanatory), daemonologists (who are just spitting distance away from sorcerers if you ask me, playing with raw Warp energy, studying daemons and teleporting themselves through the Immaterium) and theosophists (or something like that, who seem to be little more than less dangerous daemonologists, look at how the Warp interacts with Realspace, avatars, banishing daemons and all that jazz).

EDIT


How do we know the Emperor myth is not just propaganda?...{snip}...I better stop, this could be taken for heresy, could it not?

*BLAM*

Move along citizens. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Killgore
02-06-2008, 11:49
The Emperor was a very clever chap, being alive for thousands of years you pick up a few tricks and insights, especialy when alot is forgotten and you still got the information in your noggin + ideas for more.

lets also not forget that the Emperor didnt work alone like a mad scientist in his tower, nope he had teams of scientists to work with

avatar of kaine
14-06-2008, 12:35
Well acording to sources and maps of terra and todays earth the emporors throne is actualy is in notigham in rick priestly's office....

you don't think do you......
also rick preistly is often bribed with strong beer so no the emporor is not a genius

heretics bane
14-06-2008, 15:14
well if we take wiki as offical:

He has thousand of past lives, since he is the geselt form of thousands of shaman souls so that would make him a pretty smart cookie if you have thousands of minds of various degrees of intelligance would technicly make you a genius

ryng_sting
14-06-2008, 15:15
Do lemmings like cliffs?

If he can scratch-build the Astronomican and the Golden Throne, what else could he be?

Lame Duck
14-06-2008, 15:45
How do we know the Emperor myth is not just propaganda?

I have read a fair lot of the 40k fluff, but sometimes I wonder if what is being told is actually true or just the way history is constructed.

Maybe there was never an Emperor like the one the fluff would have him be. Maybe his image just had to be created, as a symbol, to unite the human worlds across the galaxy?

Ooops, I better stop, this could be taken for heresy, could it not? :eek:

Maybe the conspiracy is even bigger...maybe...maybe....maybe 40K doesn't exist!!!

Sorry, bit of a stupid post, of course it exists.:angel:

Ekranoplan
14-06-2008, 16:41
The Emperor is certainly very knowledgeable, and a very hard worker, but until we see how he fairs in a college level physics or mathematics course, his ability to learn and understand is questionable. He had more then 10,000 years to master material that most of us have to in 4-8 years.

Condottiere
14-06-2008, 16:45
First he has to take the SAT.

Iuris
14-06-2008, 22:56
I think he was smarter than most people here realize, but also more fallible than they realize. Just in a different way - more sneaky than we'd expect, but also too sure of himself, too reliant on his psyker powers.

Take the Space marines as an example. Why are they as they are? Why are they not better, as they could be, if one thinks for but a while:
-Why are they made from humans instead of cloned whole with no chance of tissue rejection?
-Why individual added organs instead of a single transformation virus that does it all in one go and not over long years?
-Why are they recruited from children, when a trained adult would allow a longer evaluation period?

Well, maybe it's all on purpose? Maybe the emperor realized that marines superior to human beings would fell above humans and would become a threat to humanity instead of its protectors (OK, so half of the legions eventually did exactly that). BUT:
-if they can only be made from humans, they are still a part of humanity. They were all once human, and will feel they are still of the same race, ensuring they feel they are the same race they protect. Which also explains why the complex ritual.
-children are not yet fully formed personalities and can be made into what one wants - and emotionally, the marines are kept as children - more easily manipulated (why do you think warlords of our own time employ child soldiers...)

If the emperor did this on purpose, he'd sure be smart, eh? (Of course, GW may not have done that intentionally...).



Another note: while the emperor's judgment of the primarchs was imperfect, we must still realize that it was not rash. The emperor spent years with the primarchs during which he studied them - in the case of Horus, for two centuries! Plenty of time to study.

Kage2020
15-06-2008, 05:44
I remember a while back I posted a thread on how people viewed the Emperor, though I have a few themed titles and descriptions to the choices that could be made. Briefly these were:

Pre-Incarceration
The God. The Emperor was everything that he was portrayed to be. Nigh on Thor physically (which is to say following the somewhat traditional imagery that is applied to the Emperor in the Horus Heresy books), his psychic powers were focused on prescience and clairsentience.
The Scientist. Intelligent and insightful, but physically little more than a human (with psyker powers to go beyond that), the Emperor's powers lay in his deep understanding of the physical and psychic universe.
The Trickster. The Emperor, little more than a human, used his abilities as a flim-flam, tricking everyone around him to believing he was something that he wasn't.

Post-Incarceration
The Husk. Little remains upon the Golden Throne but a withered, dessicated corpse held together with arcane technology. Only through those technologies is the Imperium bound together in a decaying, fragmenting semblance of anything remotely whole.
The Child. A single fragment of hope in a dark universe, the Child awaits the time when it will be born into a new New Man, and the battle with the Old Gods will begin once again. Will humanity survive this period of quiet hope, though?
The Twin. Born out of the fervent worship of the adherents of the Adeptus Ministorum, the Twin is the Dark Twin to the image of the Emperor. Twisted by the canker of Chaos into a true image of the corrupt worship of the Ecclesiarchy...

But there we go. For me it was ever the Scientist pre-Incarceration (but with elements of The Trickster, but little of The God) in the Golden Throne, and after that all three of the Husk, Child, and Twin.

Erm, anyway. Back to the question of whether he was a genius? Yes, I would say that he was (The Scientist). I'm a positivist, though. All this God nonsense has always struck me as just that: nonsense. ;)

Kage

Deus Mechanicus
15-06-2008, 12:09
I think the Emperor was a charasmatic and intelligent dude, but not that he scratch built everything himself.

In my rogue trader compendium it was Dr. Outek who atleast had great insight in the Space Marine project. He even had to explain to the Emperor alot of things about the organs and so on. Qoute from the emperor "You call the organs Zygotes" and Dr. Outek explains how and why and so on.

Kage2020
15-06-2008, 16:27
One of the wonderful things about that bit of 'fluff' is that it puts the Emperor in a light that he is so rarely cast in -- one where he isn't the best at everything. I like it when that happens. :D

Kage

Sajuuk
15-06-2008, 18:56
Genius is eternal patience. - Michelangelo

Intelligence is nothing. Only imagination matters. - Einstain

Reader's Digest:
- Systematic and orderly approaches to problem solving.
- Sense of wonder, ability to look at things in a fresh, almost childlike way. They keep an open mind and a flexible attitude on all subjects.
- Ability to concentrate with greater depth and intensity than the average person.

So yes... imho Emperor undoubtedly is a genius.

Iuris
15-06-2008, 18:56
Heh, I haven't considered the big guy perfect for years. VERY fallible, in my opinion. Doesn't make him seriously capable... but we should keep in mind what the eldar once called him: the fledgeling seer...

MvS
15-06-2008, 19:35
Well there it is. The 'fluff' is a touch inconsistent. Who'd have thought?

One way or another, whether the Emperor was a thousands of years old scholar/scientist or whether he was a manifest many-soul 'daemon' of some sort, he was still, as far as it matters, a genius... yes? :D

Condottiere
16-06-2008, 09:55
The short answer? Yes, the Emperor is a genius.

Kage2020
17-06-2008, 00:24
One way or another, whether the Emperor was a thousands of years old scholar/scientist or whether he was a manifest many-soul 'daemon' of some sort, he was still, as far as it matters, a genius... yes? :D
As long as he never worked in an academic department at a university? Fair enough. As anyone who has ever had the... pleasure of working in one of those, it rapidly becomes apparent that the "sum is lesser than the parts." Oh the joys. ;)

Kage

Templar_Victorious
17-06-2008, 08:00
I've haven't got around to read HH yet, but from what I've read here about the Emperor being omniscient and all (in this thread), isn't the following a possibility?

The Emperor knew Chaos was going to overcome half of his beloved sons, perhaps to the extent of even which and how much. It might be possible that he even knew which sons who was going to fall. Seeing the possible futures which each of them, he saw that Horus was the most likely to, in the end, regret his actions.

The other Primarchs, might have been better dealt with one by one, but that would not reveal all of the Chaos worshippers to the soldiers of mankind. With one single act, all of Chaos within the Imperium was revealed, and mankind would have the chance to cleanse itself of the corruptions of warp, a baptism of fire. With faith in the Emperor, they would stand against the armies of evil
(A sort of Ragnarok, or other Apocalyspe like ending of one world, the dawning of a new one).

However, as the Emperor and Horus had been standing side by side like no other Primarch, he would see that Horus would be the only one seeing his own wrongdoin in the end. The Emperor 'KNEW' Horus would come to his senses in the end, and therefore staged so that Horus would be the one to lead the Chaos armies and therefore be the very breaking point of Chaos. All of which he knew. All had been planned in his divine wisdom.

This is off course, a mere speculation, but I have based it on the tellings of the possiblity of a omniscient Emperor.

Feel free to totally reject such a far out statement, praise it to the heavens, or anything between.

MvS
17-06-2008, 08:58
As long as he never worked in an academic department at a university? Fair enough. As anyone who has ever had the... pleasure of working in one of those, it rapidly becomes apparent that the "sum is lesser than the parts." Oh the joys.
:D

There is, however, a flaw in your observation Kage.

As far as we know, the sum of Emperor is many souls manking up a super-soul. Most academic departments I've had the dubious pleasure of being associated with have been largely soulless.

Ergo, the gestalt of most academic departments is a kind of super-Pariah that makes people dealing with it feel uncomfortable and overwhelmed wiith a sense of unnatural horror...

True.

Hellebore
17-06-2008, 09:47
Well starting at the beginning:

The Emperor is a gestalt consciousness of thousands of Homo erectus psykers who have lived hundreds of life times. They have a great deal of experience in stone tool use and the hunter gatherer lifestyle, so the Emperor would definitely be a genius in that field.

When he was born humanity was on the precipice of falling into civilisation. He understood the flow of nature; how a gazelle flashes it's butt to deter predators etc.

So he had a great deal of earthy wisdom from multiple souls (none of which were human). If nothing else he probably knew several hundred different ways to skin an elephant.

Those multiple souls would definitely have given him a thousand different ways to approach a problem which in itself is a valuable skill. We are shaped and constrained by our environment so generally have only ONE way of approaching something. Unfortunately the Emperor's multifaceted approach was marred by the shamans' need for a return to their original way of life. So although he could look at something from a thousand different angles, it generally boiled down to 'why can't we go back to living in a cave like we used to?'

After thousands of years the Emperor would have expanded his prosaic and rural repertoire with more than just a love for trees. He would have been able to absorb the sciences and make leaps of understanding faster than anyone else. He was in effect a walking university faculty (with all the narrowness of an ivory tower).

Living for thousands of years alone allows one to sample a rather large variety of information, so even were he an ignoramus a few thousand years would have allowed him to pick at least something up.

So was the Emperor a genius? I suppose it depends on what one defines as a genius. The souls of several thousand hippy psyker hominids combined in one man is certainly interesting....

Hellebore

Kage2020
19-06-2008, 02:35
:D

There is, however, a flaw in your observation Kage.

As far as we know, the sum of Emperor is many souls manking up a super-soul. Most academic departments I've had the dubious pleasure of being associated with have been largely soulless.

Ergo, the gestalt of most academic departments is a kind of super-Pariah that makes people feel dealing with it uncomfortable and overwhelmed wiith a sense of unnatural horror...

True.
Now that truly made me smile. :D

Of course, it is predicated upon a non-rationalist appoach to the soul, but that's kind of the point. ;)

Kage

Swope
19-06-2008, 05:37
ALL I know is that he is SIGMAR

Condottiere
19-06-2008, 06:16
Or is it he's the only one able to tap into the Human racial unconsciousness, for both knowledge and to focus its latest psychic power?

Azulthar
19-06-2008, 07:56
Ranking the Emperor's strengths, I'd put it something like this:

1. Psychic powers
2. Wisdom
3. Intelligence
4. Physique

I'm not quite sure about 2 and 3. I think the Emperor was definitely way up there in the superhuman category, though I'd hate to think he was best at everything. Still, he was far from an ordinary man.

Rod Hull
19-06-2008, 16:20
He's a fricking god.

LordFulgrim
19-06-2008, 16:43
No matter what he was he was a genius but also human enough to make some very human mistakes, Horus Heresy anyone?

WastedWhiteBoy
20-06-2008, 02:56
Thing that always got me is, how could he possibly be "human" after about 38,000 years of existence...one would think he would have quite an inhuman mindset after all those years, and as such, wouldn't really be prone to human mistakes and foolishness (such as the Heresy).

Kage2020
20-06-2008, 05:07
Who says the hubris is restricted to humanity, though? Surely that label is applied against a certain alien race more often than not... ;)

Kage

Condottiere
20-06-2008, 08:16
Who says the hubris is restricted to humanity, though? Surely that label is applied against a certain alien race more often than not... ;)

Or to mortals?;)

MvS
20-06-2008, 10:53
Indeed so.

It seems to be a common mistake to conflate hubris with stupidity or ignorance, or perhaps even a lack of wisdom.

It seems to me that wisdom is not an absolute that you either have or don't have. There are different sorts of wisdom, so the wisdom of an all-powerful absolute ruler like King Solomon would be subtly different from the wisdom of a wandering monk with no money. Many of the observations they make about humanity would be pretty identical, but how they act on their wisdom (if at all) will vary due to their positions.

So the monk might just speak his wisdom to those who ask and leave it to them to think about what he says, or not as the case may be. King Solomon might have passed laws to try to promote and even enforce his own wise observances, but doing so changes the the man himself.

Buddha was supposed to have refused, at least at first, to explain his experience of enlightenment, because by doing so he feared his words would lead to dogma before personal exploration, critical thinking and genuine self-realisation. In the end however he realised that he was becoming dogmatic and probably a bit hard on the people who were asking for his opinion on matters, so he relented. Then, after a century or two, a religion was built up around him. :)

Anyway, I see the Emperor as taking the path of the wandering monk (and variations thereof) for millennia, always encouraging others and trying to prompt people to self-discovery, critical thinking and personal and social 'enlightenment', in whatever forms they might take. But as the millennia passed and he became less and less human by any meanignful measure and also as humanity eventually fell into anarchy and barbarity mixed with awakening psychic potential and amazing technology (a very dangerous cocktail indeed), the Emperor actually became The Emperor deciding, quite understandably from his point of view, that as he knew so much, had seen so much and had done his best to guide and take care of humanity (in some form or another) for as long as humans had existed, he decided to step up and take control before humanity self-immolated.

He wasn't wrong per se, but this is a pretty massive shift in the dynamic of how he spread 'wisdom' throughout humanity. By moving away from trying to encourage grass-roots change to trying to promote and enforce change from above, the Emperor naturally became detached from the day-to-day concerns of humanity. He started to see and care for Humanity more than he did individual humans.

The same thing can happen to any revolutionary government - when they first attain power they still understand 'the people' at grass-roots and can make all sorts of brilliant changes, but as time goes by their position makes it increasingly difficult for them to just meet with ordinary people and their opinions and needs without them first being filtered and interpreted through foucs groups, civil service experts and even academia. So whereas that government's intentions can remain generally good, how they perceive the problems they face and how they move to address these problems can become ever more... odd, maybe?

Think how much more this must apply to the Emperor, who even before he took the reins of power was already detached and separate from humanity in very profound ways.

The Emperor can make mistakes because of hubris, although if you dissect those mistakes into the component decisions that led up to them it wouldn't necessarily be so easy to point to a moment of ignorance, pettiness or stupidity. His reasonings might all be justifiable and make perfect sense from the high tower he was looking out from, but in practise at 'ground level' they may have been limited in very particular, and fatal, ways.

In fact if you want to see the Emperor as the wisest superhuman ever we still could, because knowing the flaws in one's arguments or actions is not the same thing as perceiving how to counter or mitigate against them all. The Emperor might have known on one level that Horus had a few problems, say, but on another level might have felt that by giving Horus the responsibility he did, Horus might have 'made good' and transcended his limitations or somesuch. What good is it to create demi-gods if they are so emotionally fragile that you are frightened of putting them into tough situations? Typical godlike 'putting My beloved creation to the test for his own good' while downplaying to himself the dangers of doing so.

Hubris, then.

Kage2020
20-06-2008, 14:47
Hubris, then.
Or, in simpler terms, the Scientist becomes God, but is never more than Trickster (at least to himself). :D

Kage

MvS
20-06-2008, 15:00
I'm not sure I understand the entirety of what you mean by 'scientist' in this context, Kage.

The Emperor certainly was a scientist, but I think from what little we know of his pre-Emperor life and post-Emperor actions, he certainly acted, and perhaps even saw himself, as humanity's 'special' protector and/or shepherd - or, at least, the 'Guy Who Knows Best'.

So in other words, wasn't he already more than just a bright psychic scientist who became God in the eyes of others, both by his own self-perception and in a more objective analysis. It seems to me that his superman alienation from 'normal' humans ("I'm so powerful and unique, not even the people I love can understand me") and his "only I can save them" hubris started a long time before he stepped into the fore ground, don't you think?

I mean, he may have been tricking himself, but perhaps in the same way that any norm-entrepreneur does...

What do you think?

Captain Stern
20-06-2008, 15:22
the Emperor actually became The Emperor deciding, quite understandably from his point of view, that as he knew so much, had seen so much and had done his best to guide and take care of humanity (in some form or another) for as long as humans had existed, he decided to step up and take control before humanity self-immolated.

He wasn't wrong per se, but this is a pretty massive shift in the dynamic of how he spread 'wisdom' throughout humanity. By moving away from trying to encourage grass-roots change to trying to promote and enforce change from above, the Emperor naturally became detached from the day-to-day concerns of humanity. He started to see and care for Humanity more than he did individual humans.

The same thing can happen to any revolutionary government - when they first attain power they still understand 'the people' at grass-roots and can make all sorts of brilliant changes, but as time goes by their position makes it increasingly difficult for them to just meet with ordinary people and their opinions and needs without them first being filtered and interpreted through foucs groups, civil service experts and even academia. So whereas that government's intentions can remain generally good, how they perceive the problems they face and how they move to address these problems can become ever more... odd, maybe?

Think how much more this must apply to the Emperor, who even before he took the reins of power was already detached and separate from humanity in very profound ways.

The Emperor can make mistakes because of hubris, although if you dissect those mistakes into the component decisions that led up to them it wouldn't necessarily be so easy to point to a moment of ignorance, pettiness or stupidity. His reasonings might all be justifiable and make perfect sense from the high tower he was looking out from, but in practise at 'ground level' they may have been limited in very particular, and fatal, ways.

In fact if you want to see the Emperor as the wisest superhuman ever we still could, because knowing the flaws in one's arguments or actions is not the same thing as perceiving how to counter or mitigate against them all. The Emperor might have known on one level that Horus had a few problems, say, but on another level might have felt that by giving Horus the responsibility he did, Horus might have 'made good' and transcended his limitations or somesuch. What good is it to create demi-gods if they are so emotionally fragile that you are frightened of putting them into tough situations? Typical godlike 'putting My beloved creation to the test for his own good' while downplaying to himself the dangers of doing so.


Just because the Emperor, out of necessity, raised himself to a loftier position doesn't mean that he'd 'naturally' make the same mistakes as ordinary humans who come to occupy positions of power i.e. that he'd forget, or become desensitised to, the concerns of the people. Yes, even the Emperor's ability to cater to a person's needs would suffer by governing from a centralised position, but that's determined by distance, time e.t.c and can't be helped. That's all we can assume here where the Emperor's concerned. Whether his outlook, attitues e.t.c. would change once he became Emperor, is debatable. He is, after all, not like other humans and therefore not to be judged in the same way.

MvS
20-06-2008, 15:39
Yes, even the Emperor's ability to cater to a person's needs would suffer by governing from a centralised position, but that's determined by distance, time e.t.c and can't be helped. That's all we can assume here where the Emperor's concerned. Whether his outlook, attitues e.t.c. would change once he became Emperor, is debatable. He is, after all, not like other humans and therefore not to be judged in the same way.
Actually I'm largely in agreement with you.

By governing, as opposed to advising, his position changes and so does his experience of the people around him. It doesn't matter if he is a 'mere' human or a superhuman.

I think his outlook would shift simply because the view is different from the top looking down rather than from the bottom looking up. Sure he would be able to grasp more than almost any other in his position, by merit of his peculiar mind and longevity, but if he is really trying to govern a galaxy spanning Imperium while at the same time trying to make incredible breakthroughs in science/technomancy, while also directing the Astronomican while also always being surrounded by a detachment of super-warrior Custodians, even in his private chambers, then it is fair to say that regardless of how clever and wise he is, he would not have the kind of perception he had before all these things came into being.

Yes he had an amazing mind, but then again the Horus heresy happened, so whichever way we want to cut it, the Emperor either made a mistake or else didn't perceive and/or think through as much as was needed to prevent the Heresy ever happening. As he is the seemingly immortal, super-psyker, self-made galactic Emperor the buck stops with him, no?

Captain Stern
20-06-2008, 15:48
The Chaos gods were too formidable an enemy. Let's not forget about them.

Originally at least, the Emperor was ultimately defeated because of his attachment to Horus. In their duel he held back, pulled his blows. At that point it was still possible to snatch victory out of the jaws of defeat and turn it all around.

So it wasn't hubris. It was because he was too much of a softy.

Kage2020
20-06-2008, 16:54
I'm not sure I understand the entirety of what you mean by 'scientist' in this conext, Kage.
A simple allusion to my previous post, which admittedly didn't go into detail of the descriptions of those particular themed "flavours" (interpretations) of the Emperor. (The original goal of those was to act as a focus for some RPG interpretations of the character, similar to those that you can find int he Amber DRPG game with regards to the major characters of the Zelazy Amber Chronicles.)

In there, The Scientist is the protector figure; the nurterer. He works behind the scenes for the betterment of humanity.

The God, on other hand, is the bombastic and in-your-face figure that we see presented in some material -- the huge hulking figure that can cower the Primarchs, out-eat Russ, etc., etc. Ad nauseum. In this context, he is the brash figure that takes up the reins of humanity, shackling them to a vision of the future that he is not truly equipped (from his own stance) to deal with.

Thus, The Trickster. The Trickster takes on the role of the God, but ultimately it's just an act; something that he is ultimately ill-equipped to deal with, even if he can maintain his position as a result of this.

Ultimately, neither Scientist, God, or Trickster wholly encompass what the Emperor was, just as in the same way the Child, Husk, and Twin do not encompass everything about the post-incarceration Emperor. (I personally use all three, but there we go.) Rather, they are just evocative little foci designed to represent certain approaches to the Emperor that do not subscribe to the approach whereby the Emperor is God and, well, you better eat your vegetables or he will come down and smite you. I shall leave this little fictions to the adherents to the Imperial Cult. ;)


It seems to me that his superman alienation from 'normal' humans ("I'm so powerful and unique, not even the people I love can understand me") and his "only I can save them" hubris started a long time before he stepped into the fore ground, don't you think?
I would personally argue that there is a difference between what the Emperor was created to do, and what he ended up doing. Thus, for me, there is a difference between a guardian and shepherd of humanity, and being its savior. The greatest act of his hubris was taking up the role of savior.

Kage

Azulthar
20-06-2008, 17:11
I don't really see the Emperor as a scientist, according to the definition Kage uses. Far too much of a guide/leader for that. I mean, I would like him to be, but I don't see it :)

You can't be both.


Edit: Hmmm...well, I spoke too soon. He could be all three of those, and more. It's pretty hard not to go by your own interpretation of the Emperor, since that's pretty much all you have :p

MvS
20-06-2008, 17:32
I would personally argue that there is a difference between what the Emperor was created to do, and what he ended up doing. Thus, for me, there is a difference between a guardian and shepherd of humanity, and being its savior. The greatest act of his hubris was taking up the role of savior.
Interesting point.

A saviour of this sort is doomed to failure because there is no fixed end point where we can judge whether the 'saving' has happened or not. Even if he managed to guide and protect humanity until it was a fully psychic species, does that make him its saviour? What if something happens after that? etc, etc, etc.

Guardian/shepherd is perhaps a more realistic (in terms of 40K imagery at least) job task than eternal saviour in a physical sense. If we say he was some sort of religious/spiritual saviour then it is a little easier to say, however arbitrarily, that he succeeded, because there is no physical standard by which to measure this by.

I'm sure the Imperial Cult say this all the time... ;)

Kage2020
20-06-2008, 21:02
I don't really see the Emperor as a scientist, according to the definition Kage uses. Far too much of a guide/leader for that.
Isn't this merely the difference between his role pre-outing himself, and after that point: guide versus subsequent arrogant savior? Whether he was a successful leader doesn't really make any difference to the idea of his supposed arrogance.


Even if he managed to guide and protect humanity until it was a fully psychic species, does that make him its saviour?
The Emperor in this scenario would be a facilitator, with in many regards the whole purpose of the "guidance to a fully psychic species" being an evolution of the self more than that which is imposed from the outside. Thus the Emperor's transition into self-avowed savior (all but) remains an act of foolish hubris. He just made a darned good show of it.

And, of course, we won't know what would have happened had he stuck to his guns and carried on as before. Of course, that doesn't make as interesting a story.

But there we go. I like to view the Emperor as a flawed, manifestly human character, since I believe that this makes his story more interesting. Regardless of the error (or not) of his decision, he made the decision to change his "state" and in so doing tried to save humanity. Had he been the "God" that so many people argue for, then where is the difficulty in that? Where is the power of the story?

It is for that reason that any time that you see the discussion about the Emperor being a physical god that I tend to (mostly) internally roll my eyes. After all, the best heroes are the ones that sacrifice themselves on the anvil of history, rather than those that shape history around themselves and make it dance to their tune.

For me, anyway. (Thus, give me Cain over Ragnar Blackmane any second of the day.)

Kage

Azulthar
21-06-2008, 08:14
I like to view the Emperor as a flawed, manifestly human character, since I believe that this makes his story more interesting. Regardless of the error (or not) of his decision, he made the decision to change his "state" and in so doing tried to save humanity. Had he been the "God" that so many people argue for, then where is the difficulty in that? Where is the power of the story?
I prefer this view on the Emperor as well, and luckily when it comes to the Emperor we're pretty much free to see him as we want :)

While in the normal world scientists make poor leaders, I think the Emperor had the potential to take on pretty much any role he wanted. It's hard to imagine someone like that though: a born leader sticking to the shadows, or a scientist taking up the mantle of leadership.

Kage2020
21-06-2008, 15:04
I prefer this view on the Emperor as well, and luckily when it comes to the Emperor we're pretty much free to see him as we want :)
That's true of the rest of the 40k universe as well, though most people tend to stick to certain 'facts' as givens that cannot be changed.


While in the normal world scientists make poor leaders...
Leadership is not inversely related to scientific ability, nor any other skill or talent. It just... is. After all, I'm sure that we have all met people that were in leadership roles (including teachers) that probably should have sought a different career option, or people that were not in those roles that should have been.

So, no. Cannot agree with that statement with the caveat that any individual who is so desperately focused on a given activity is probably not going to make a good leader. Thus a "world class" scientist focused on, say, the cure for AIDS, might not make a good leader (still... might).

Kage