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View Full Version : The tarpit (chaos daemons) viable tactic?



Kroxigore
01-06-2008, 18:33
Hey folks,

I took a look at the daemon book and one item that really caught my eye is that banner, which makes all daemons within 12'' stubborn. The combination of this banner with certain units and a mobile general, could really be quite devastating. For instance Nurglings suddenly become quite attractive. They are normally not my favorite units, but if they get stubborn, they can easyly bind one or two units in CC.
One combo, that came to my mind is that banner on a herald of tzeench in a unit of horrors, which is screened by furies/nurglings/whatever. You combine that with one really hard hitting unit like, for instance, bloodcrushers. This way you can just glue your enemy to the ground and reduce him with gift of chaos until the bloodcrushers attack their flank. If you manage to align your enemy properly, you can break two units per round, as the second unit will already be in CC when the crushers reach them.

So what do you think, can this tactic be effective or not?

Lord Aries
01-06-2008, 18:39
Take 16 Plague Bearers, give them a herald on palanquin with noxious vapors. You now have a tarpit... I don't know of much that can kill them, and nothing that can kill them fast. You don't need the stubborn banner, because you won't loose many dudes. Flank in with Fleshhounds or feinds of slaneesh...

Kroxigore
01-06-2008, 19:29
Take 16 Plague Bearers, give them a herald on palanquin with noxious vapors. You now have a tarpit... I don't know of much that can kill them, and nothing that can kill them fast. You don't need the stubborn banner, because you won't loose many dudes. Flank in with Fleshhounds or feinds of slaneesh...

Sure, a unit of plaguebearers is a tarpit, no doubt. But the point is, that you have to march all over the field, so that you can effectively bind something. And you're so slow, that most units can just avoid you. Not so with Furies. They can bind a unit in turn two, if necessary. The same with well-placed scouting nurglings. The thing is, that there are several quite good tarpits, but they all are either expensive or not very mobile.

Lord Aries
01-06-2008, 20:26
The way I play, is with 2 units of PBs with Heralds, 1 unit of horrors in between them, with 2 heralds, 2 units of corn-dogs, 2 units of flamers and one unit of furies.

If you don't kill the tarpits, you don't win. I've not been defeated yet, even when my opponent stayed away from the tarpits and killed everything else. I know you are investing a lot in the units, but you are forcing them to face off with them, or have very little chance to win. A lot of armies (most) can't deal with that.


HOWEVER, to speak of your strategy... using Bloodletters or deamonettes in units of 10, 12, 14 backed up by a unit with the banner behind them, will work great. You can take many many units of them, get engaged and hopefully not loose combat by too much, and then counter flank. You would be fast enough to make it work.

fubukii
01-06-2008, 20:28
furies are ld2 though, im not sure how much stubborn will be helping them

Chaos Mortal
01-06-2008, 21:44
the banners great but i prefere plaguebearers myself for that job.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
01-06-2008, 22:26
However, since your BSB is/should going to be a near-unkillable Herald of Nurgle anyways, and he will doubtless be in a unit of Plaguebearers himself, it's not a bad idea to consider the Banner of Chaos Glory (Stubborn for everything within 12-inches of the Banner-Bearer) because it pretty much makes your Ultimate Anvil unit "Unbreakable".

Using the Herald's Leadership-8.....STUBBORN....with a Re-roll for it being the BSB is almost invincible. You can (somehow) lose combat by 2-3 points (let's say you got charged in the flank by Blood Knights, whilst engaged in the front by Grave Guard or something).....and test your Instability on Ldrshp of 8 instead of the Combat-Reduced value of 5 or 6 ! This is huge as it means you can only lose models on a 9,10,11, or 12 result. Additionally, with the Re-roll, you effectively have two chances to get an 8 or less. HUGE.

You will, effectively, only be losing models from actual combat. As the poster pointed out, this is especially effective for lesser units around the BSB as they don't have to be huge-sized anymore, to be effective. A 10 Bloodletter unit can charge a fully-ranked one, cause 3 casualties to the front rank, take none in return "Lose" by 3-4 due to all the Static Combat Resolution, and yet roll Instability on a Stubborn-7, RE-rollable due to BSB presence.


HUGE. The more I am looking at this Banner (following an in-depth debate of it on the Daemonic Legion Forum), the more I am really liking it and considering it in my 2000-2250 point armies.

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Exceptions would be Slaanesh-based where the Icon of Despair is better due to all the Slaaneshi Leadership-affecting Magic and Daemonic Gifts, or Tzeentch-based where something like the Banner of Hellfire on a Chariot-Herald might be put to better use due to the flying-movement + huge damage it can do.

* for laughs, against Undead, take that on your Herald with Master of Sorcery (Lore of Light) to know all Light Spells. Fly to within 12-inches of several enemy units on Turn-2 or 3....unleash this Banner for D6, STR-6 hits to all enemy units in range....then smile and throw 3-dice at Cleansing Flare for a further D6, STR-6 (cause they are Undead/Daemons) hits on everything in 12-inches. :D *

Kroxigore
02-06-2008, 00:16
HOWEVER, to speak of your strategy... using Bloodletters or deamonettes in units of 10, 12, 14 backed up by a unit with the banner behind them, will work great. You can take many many units of them, get engaged and hopefully not loose combat by too much, and then counter flank. You would be fast enough to make it work.


That's one thing, that I thought about too. At least with daemonettes. The only thing is, that daemonettes aren't that cheap for how easyly they die. At least they can do some damage to light troops. Which also could help is that banner, that prevents enemy troops from fleeing a charge. This way, you can nail the enemy, where he stands.



furies are ld2 though, im not sure how much stubborn will be helping them

For this you need a mobile general. I think a LoC should be quite good for the job, as he can flank a unit himself and he's pretty mobile.


However, since your BSB is/should going to be a near-unkillable Herald of Nurgle anyways, and he will doubtless be in a unit of Plaguebearers himself, it's not a bad idea to consider the Banner of Chaos Glory (Stubborn for everything within 12-inches of the Banner-Bearer) because it pretty much makes your Ultimate Anvil unit "Unbreakable".


I think besides plaguebearers, bloodletters could work also (though I think, that bearers do the job better). At least you can make the banner carrier pretty tough to kill. IIRC the juggernaught gives a herold 4 wounds, right?




Exceptions would be Slaanesh-based where the Icon of Despair is better due to all the Slaaneshi Leadership-affecting Magic and Daemonic Gifts, or Tzeentch-based where something like the Banner of Hellfire on a Chariot-Herald might be put to better use due to the flying-movement + huge damage it can do.


The banner of despair is pretty nifty also, that's right. But I think the Banner of Chaos Glory is also far from useless. Anyways, I think, if you play slaanesh, that the decision between both of them, isn't easy, especially as slaanesh can use at least a little 'moral resilience'.

The nice thing about that banner is, that you can do MMU (multiple middle sized units) and each of those units can take at least one charge of nearly any unit without being destroyed. One sustained charge is normally enough to place a flank-charge...

Lord Aries
02-06-2008, 00:27
All heralds have 2 wounds.... nothing gives them more wounds.

However, a herald of nurgle is t5 with the wardsave, regen, and ussually AASF (always always strikes first)

The Herald on Jugger has a 1+ save... so each is pretty tough.

fubukii
02-06-2008, 00:41
herald on a jugger actually rocks a 0+ save which is pretty impressive.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
02-06-2008, 04:09
Corrrect. 0+. Tis' awesome !

Is that a Knight charging me with a Lance ? Ouch. STR-5 hit eh. Yep. I'm...I'm in trouble. What am I doing ? Preparing to roll my 2+ Armor Save, after modification for the Strength of your hit.

No. No, I'm serious. It's still 2+. Ooh, look at that. Saved it. ;)

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For BSB though, if you are going a mixed-god army, nothing is as resilient as the Heralds of Nurgle on Palanquins with Noxious Vapors and Nurgle's Rot/Slime Trail. They are insanely tough and can take down Lord-level foes if they roll decently with their attacks/wounds/poison. 9 Attacks from a Hero is pretty amazing ! (Palanquin + Herald)

Kroxigore
02-06-2008, 18:00
Okay, so let me summarize this:
It is agreed, that the optimum BSB in a tarpit-like army is a herold of nurgle. Nurglings are also good as a tarpit unit, so I guess some nurgle-elements should be in such an army. For the part, that goes flanking the tarpitted units, I personally like slaanesh units, as they are fast and therefore good for flanking anyway. Apart from that, Khorne is pretty decent for the flanking part also, so khorne should be considered too.
The General of such an army should be quite mobile, so a LoC or a Bloodthirster should be first choice. A KoS could work also, same with a flying DP, but I'm not a fan of the DP and a march-blocked KoS is still only at 10'' movement.
Any additions?

Chaos Mortal
02-06-2008, 18:58
i actually think the banner in a unit of 40 horrors that alot of people seem to be taking is quite a nice combo. Still i think plaguebearers are the best tarpit and i dont think its really needed or easy to fit in to 2k games =P still a great item in some situations.

Gaftra
02-06-2008, 19:54
the strength of the daemon list is in its tarpit and hammer units (i like calling them anvils, make me feel better). a GUO, 2-3 beasts of nurgle, or a tricked out unit of plaguebearers with herald, bsb, palanquin, full command, war banner, and three ranks is damn near irremovable. using any, or all if youre me, along with the hardest hitting unit you can field is the way to go with daemons imo