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Xzazzarai
01-06-2008, 22:17
Can the VC Black knights do a marchmove even if there's no vampire within 6"?
It is stated that they are undead, and therefor cannot march. But, at the same time, they allso got Ethereal movement: "They are allso never affected by any special rule, spell or item that would otherwise reduce their movement or stop them from moving completely (Such as the pit of Shades, for example)."

I see the "Undead" as a special rule (which it is) that reduces their movement sience they can't use it to it's full potential. Which should be negated due to the Ethereal movement special rule.
Or do they mean it litteraly? Do the special rule, spell or what ever have to affect the number beneth the M for the Ethereal movement rule to kick in?

???

WLBjork
01-06-2008, 22:23
No Black Knights cannot march.

Marching is a *bonus*, not the normal movement state.

EvC
02-06-2008, 00:23
Being unable to march is exactly the same kind of penalty is being unable to fly is.

][nquist0r
02-06-2008, 00:42
I think blood knights can march as they count as vampires

lparigi34
02-06-2008, 02:03
Knights of the Blood Keep are vampires indeed. However, Black Knights are not.

Lord Aries
02-06-2008, 02:07
No they cannot march... Your interpretation of the rules of Ethereal is pretty bad. Undead doesn't slow their movement... it prevents marching. Your movement value is still 7(or 8). Your ability to march can be stopped by being march blocked as well, even though you are ethereal.

Lordmonkey
02-06-2008, 04:06
Can the VC Black knights do a marchmove even if there's no vampire within 6"?

No?


It is stated that they are undead, and therefor cannot march.

No! Read the army book. Again.


Such as the pit of Shades, for example

Stop. Just, please, stop quoting this piece of crap spell that somehow seems to define every bloody rule in the game.


I see the "Undead" as a special rule (which it is)

True.


that reduces their movement...etc

False. Their movement remains precisely the same. Where did you get this from?


Or do they mean it litteraly? Do the special rule, spell or what ever have to affect the number beneth the M for the Ethereal movement rule to kick in?

Ethereal is a special rule. It is an ability of a given unit type that does not cancel out any other special rule. PLEASE point me to the place in the rulebook where 'ethereal' cancels out 'undead'. In other words, Ethereal and/or undead units are still one and/or the other. They suffer from both penalties and/or both weaknesses.


Being unable to march is exactly the same kind of penalty is being unable to fly is.

No it isn't. What does that even mean? Marching isn't a special rule, for one.

Eternus
02-06-2008, 08:22
To keep it simple, Black Knights are 'Undead' in every sense of the word. Their special movement rules only have an effect on how they interact with terrain when they move. They are not Ethereal. They do however move through terrain as if they were Ethereal. This is the limit of the special faux ethereal movement rules that affect them, and they are affected by the 'Undead' rules regarding everything else.;)

EvC
02-06-2008, 09:57
No it isn't. What does that even mean? Marching isn't a special rule, for one.

Wow, you're eager to argue, aren't you? All I'm saying is that if someone has the mindset "Not being able to march is a movement penalty" then you might as well replace "march" with the term "fly", and the statement would have the same validity (None). Both are rules that would let ethereals move really fast if they had the ability, but it's not a penalty that they can't. So Black Knights can neither march without a Vampire near, nor can they fly!

xragg
02-06-2008, 11:04
Wow, you're eager to argue, aren't you? All I'm saying is that if someone has the mindset "Not being able to march is a movement penalty" then you might as well replace "march" with the term "fly", and the statement would have the same validity (None). Both are rules that would let ethereals move really fast if they had the ability, but it's not a penalty that they can't. So Black Knights can neither march without a Vampire near, nor can they fly!

I understood your analogy, if that makes you feel any better.

Dark_Mage99
02-06-2008, 11:06
I apologise for the rudeness of a couple of above posters, Xzazzarai.

You have it right with your last statement: being unable to march is not a penalty to movement. A good example for such a penalty would be having your movement cut in half, say, for scenery. So Black Knights can't march with no vampire nearby.

Xzazzarai
02-06-2008, 11:08
Thx for the answers everyone!

But seriously @ some of you, there is no reason to be rude. Grow up...

@Dark_Mage99 Thx man! =)

DeathlessDraich
02-06-2008, 16:35
Many have made assumptions and added word to the rules that do not exist.

e.g. movement penalty, movement bonus etc

1) Reading the posts above, many players seem to think that marching is not a type of movement. A dreadful mistake as it leads to the following erroneous conclusion:
Any spell/ magic item that restricts 'movement' [using that very word in its description] will not restrict marching.
Furthermore the rules specifically state that marching *is a type of movement* - see (3) below

2) The BRB differentiates Manoeuvres (Turn, wheel, reform etc) and Movement.
However for the rules to work smoothly, it *must* be assumed that Manoeuvres are also a type of Movement.

3) Pg 12 clearly states that marching, fleeing and pursuing *are* types of movement.

Applying (3) to the Ethereal rules:

A) The phrase 'reduce their movement' becomes meaningless if it is assumed to mean 'reduce some types of movement' .
The Ethereal rule must include all types of movement.

B) Therefore any restriction on *all types of movement* is negated by Ethereals - i.e. They are not march blocked and can always march, wheel, etc


One basic question has to be clarified by GW if they ever intend to produce an FAQ on this:

What constitutes movement in Warhammer? Or A definition of movement.


I can foresee that when GW produces an FAQ on this, it will simply state that Ethereals are march blocked and follow Undead marching restrictions without tackling the problem at the basic level.

xragg
02-06-2008, 17:19
DeathlessD...
Not being able to march is not a restriction, but just a type of movement allowed if conditions are met. Being allowed to do something and restricted from doing something are two different things. A restriction is something that prevents you from moving a distance that you should be able to normally move. Marching is additional movement allowed if certain requirements are met. Undead happen to have additional requirements in order to march, not restrictions. Under your logic, black knights would move 14/16 inches even on a failed charge. Under your logic, black knights could reform and still move 14/16 inches (even with enemies with in 8 inches!).

lparigi34
02-06-2008, 18:05
Ufah!

You guys really want to make this complicated!!!!

I've never doubted the rules intent is pretty clear (though some RAW defenders that occasionally also mention intent on certain ocassions will say intent is not what is under questioning here).

Though: I believe that DD was just overstreching his real interpretation in order to show how bizarre things can become if you try too.

Griefbringer
02-06-2008, 18:18
nor can they fly!

Wait until you see the 8th edition VC book, featuring amongst other new units "Ethereal Pegasus Riding Black Knights Who Say Ni!".

[Though it will be unsure ATM if they will suffer movement penalties for shrubbery.]

Lordmonkey
02-06-2008, 18:29
Wow, you're eager to argue, aren't you?

Sorry about that, I didn't mean to come across as rude or anything. I apologise for being needlessly hostile - to everyone else also.

Xzazzarai
02-06-2008, 20:43
I think the majority of you are right - BK can't march. But, I will wait for a FAQ dealing with this befor I go in to any discussion about this again.

@Lordmonkey thx, appreciated. =)

DeathlessDraich
02-06-2008, 21:15
Ufah!

Though: I believe that DD was just overstreching his real interpretation in order to show how bizarre things can become if you try too.

You're right in some ways.
I would definitely play it in the same way as the majority and probably find it easier to concede the march blocking bit when pushed.

However, if a player who is new to the rules reads the Ethereal rules I won't be surprised if he ends up interpreting the rules in the way I've done above.


DeathlessD...
Not being able to march is not a restriction, but just a type of movement

Yes - as confirmed by pg 12


allowed if conditions are met.

Conditions? - maybe you mean pg 15


Marching is additional movement

Contradicts the first statement above.
Marching is a type of movement.


Under your logic, black knights would move 14/16 inches even on a failed charge.

Not 'my logic' as you put it.
Failed charge and marching are 2 very different mechanisms with rules that are separate.


Under your logic, black knights could reform and still move 14/16 inches (even with enemies with in 8 inches!).

No. 1) Reform is a Manoeuvre - strictly speaking it is not a type of movement. - This is not my fault! It's the way GW has written the rules.
For convenience, as I stated above manoeuvres have to be regarded as a type of movement.

Please re-read the Reform rules and then the Marching rules carefully and you will notice that the difference between the *process or mechanism* of marching or reforming and *restrictions* to marching or reforming.

It is by no means obvious that march blocking is a restriction or not a restriction.

e.g. "A unit that reforms cannot move that turn because it takes the entire etc etc"
This is not a *restriction to a reform*. A restriction to a reform would have been phrased like this: " A unit that does (A) cannot reform" or "If enemy models is within X" a unit cannot reform".

The above are definitely restrictions to reforming [if they exist].

Now compare the above to the march blocking rules.

This is all down to poor rules or the inaccurate way in which they are written.
If GW acknowledges the inaccuracy then these problems will not persist but they keep insisting on crossreferencing to exact words in the rule books when writing their dodgy FAQs.

May I suggest that you show the Ethereals rules and Marching rules to a person [reasonably intelligent] and asks how he or she would interpret march blocking and ethereal movement.

Doesn't this then cause many players to scrutinise words in the rules unnecessarily?

xragg
02-06-2008, 22:39
Sigh. Ripping apart every word in order to gain an advantage that isnt there. Over analyze this sentence, "They are also never affected by any special rule, spell or item that would otherwise reduce their movement or stop them moving completely." Marching is not a spell or item, so for etheral movement to affect it, marching has to be a special rule. Marching only increases a unit's maximum movement. Since etheral on affects special rules that reduce the unit's movement, it cant affect marching. Having to go through arguments/issues like this is ridiculous.


May I suggest that you show the Ethereals rules and Marching rules to a person [reasonably intelligent] and asks how he or she would interpret march blocking and ethereal movement.

Do that and very few will conclude they can always march, unless all the people I game with are not reasonably intelligent.



e.g. "A unit that reforms cannot move that turn because it takes the entire etc etc"
This is not a *restriction to a reform*. A restriction to a reform would have been phrased like this: " A unit that does (A) cannot reform" or "If enemy models is within X" a unit cannot reform".

First, I never said it was a restriction to reforming. Its a restriction of movement. "A unit that reforms cannot move that turn..." and by what you stated, "(B) Therefore any restriction on *all types of movement* is negated by Ethereals"; they would still be able to move after reforming.

Xzazzarai
03-06-2008, 11:34
Marching is not a spell or item, so for etheral movement to affect it, marching has to be a special rule.

The march move IS affected due to it's negation by the Undead Special Rule...

I think we gotta move the focus here a little bit. From the written word to the thoughts behind it.
If BK would be alowed to march, would that screw up the balance?
Does it fit the fluff of the BK to march?

I'd say it doesn't screw up the balance, but might make VC a little bit better than they allready are.
Allso, I don't think it fits the fluff of the BK and a dead army.

So, even if the rules are unclear and might allow the BK to march, I don't think GW will allow BK to march due to fluff and the feeling of the dead army.

It's not the players job to interpret the rules (The rules should be well written and crystal clear from the beginning), but when GW keeps doing contradictions those dissagreements arise.
To wait for a FAQ is probably the best we can do atm, sience both of you have a point in what you are saying.

DeathlessDraich
03-06-2008, 12:01
Do that and very few will conclude they can always march, unless all the people I game with are not reasonably intelligent.

No, sorry I meant show it to a person who does not play Warhammer.
I showed to 2 friends and they both made the conclusions I derived above.

Can I suggest you try the same?

Whitehorn
03-06-2008, 12:32
Showing a rule to someone who doesn't know how to play isn't very conclusive.

There's a huge foundation of rules to get to grips with to be able to interpret rules that are exceptions to the core.

If it hasn't been made clear, Black Knights can only march when within 6 inches (or 12 for general) of a unit that has the vampire special rule - like every undead unit in the book (Note exceptions).
Having Ethereal movement means the unit can travel through terrain without penalty, and pass through inpassible terrain, as long as it ends its move out of inpassible terrain.

EvC
03-06-2008, 13:26
Good god, worst argument on these forums ever there DeathlessDraich, and that is saying a lot! I've had entire groups of experienced players read some very clear rules and come up with the wrong conclusions because they didn't grasp the concepts involved. If I didn't know better and someone asked me, "Hey, there's this unit that ignores all movement penalties. If a unit is march blocked, it loses half its movement. Do you think the unit ignores the marchblocking penalty?" then I'd probably agree that they can't be march blocked, too.

Now I'm sure that you didn't phrase it quite so blatantly, but hell, 90% (conservative estimate) of people who've read the rule haven't thought they can always march, so that should say a fair amount than your straw poll of two non-players...

T10
03-06-2008, 15:30
Why are you only talking about marching?

Are you forgetting the failed charge move?

-T10

Faustburg
03-06-2008, 15:41
...and surely it must be impossible to dispel a movement type-spell targeting black Knights or Ethereals, because by doing so you are using a rule (or item) that would hinder their movement?

;)

Loopstah
03-06-2008, 16:47
...and surely it must be impossible to dispel a movement type-spell targeting black Knights or Ethereals, because by doing so you are using a rule (or item) that would hinder their movement?

;)

Exactly, and when you think about it, by actually putting a defined value in the M category for Black Knights you are in fact limiting their movement to said value. Surely they should be able to move as far as they want without being limited by the number in their profile as being Ethereal they should ignore the rule that all models can't move more than their Movement value.

;)

EvC
03-06-2008, 17:35
Exactly! I tell you, they can fly, dagnabit- show me where it says they can't!

Xzazzarai
03-06-2008, 18:24
...and surely it must be impossible to dispel a movement type-spell targeting black Knights or Ethereals, because by doing so you are using a rule (or item) that would hinder their movement?

;)

They are immune to all Reduction of their movement.
;)

@ the rest: What is the average age here? Less than 50% in this thread have been serious and rather polite.

Festus
03-06-2008, 19:57
The average age?

I don't know, but I had to laugh - loud and long ... because of the original question no less ...

... and then along came DDraich -mate, you topped it again ;) Kudos!

Erm ... this thread is not meant seriously, now, is it?

Festus

Lordmonkey
03-06-2008, 20:20
Let's clear something up here. Marching is not movement - two seperate things. Something that affects movement will not necessarily affect marching, except that the maximum march distance is based on the M value of the given unit.

The ethereal rule affects movement only. It does not have anything to do with marching. So while Black Knights move as if they were ethereal, they march as normal.

Note: Barding reduces their movement to 7, as per the FAQ. That's an 'ethereal' unit being affected by movement reduction right there.

Chicago Slim
03-06-2008, 20:58
Oh, don't be ridiculous. Marching is a kind of movement (inasmuch as it's a thing you do, during the Remaining Moves subphase of the Movement Phase, which results in a physical displacement of the lead and/or plastic on the table).

Marching is a specific type of movement, which requires certain preconditions to be met, and has certain intrinsic restrictions (for example, no unit can march if it starts its move within 8" of an enemy, some units cannot march through difficult ground, etc.)

The additional restriction on march moves discussed here (Vampire Counts units cannot march unless they are within 6" of a Vampire, 12" of the General, or are themselves a Vampire) are merely, well, additional restrictions on march moves.

Xzazzarai
03-06-2008, 21:44
The average age?


Erm ... this thread is not meant seriously, now, is it?

Festus

Yes, the average age...

And yes, my question is totally serious sience the rules contradicts eachother (Some what atleast, but that's enugh to cause dissagreement and what ever that bring to the table...).
I won't take any answer here for the truth, but wait for the FAQ.
I just want everything nice and straight, aight?

Festus
03-06-2008, 21:59
Hi

If it is really serious, I am aghast!

Both rules equally well apply. An undead may not march if not a Vampire or in a certain distance from one. This applies to all of them. Certain Undead are Ethereal, and thus cannot be hindered from moving the normally allowed amount. This includes marching as well as marchblocking.
If the unit is marchblocked, it may not march, if the unit is not within the distance to the Vampire it may not march. Period.

If in doubt, reread the Marching rules for the Undead, which - surprisingly enough - apply to ALL units with the special rule *Undead*. For it to not apply in the sense asked here, the Special Rule *Undead* must not apply to the Black Knights, as this is the special rule they have.
Fine with me: They do not cause fear, they are susceptible to psychology, etc. - well, I would let them march to all their heart's desire ;)

But back to reality:
No FAQ needed. And there will be none on this point, I daresay (... apart from the Direwolf concoctions)

Festus

DeathlessDraich
04-06-2008, 10:05
This issue was discussed when VC first came out. - in my VC commentary.
There are no new arguments here.


Good god, worst argument on these forums ever there DeathlessDraich, and that is saying a lot!

You seemed to have read my post with dismissive bias or you failed to understand it.


Now I'm sure that you didn't phrase it quite so blatantly, but hell, 90% (conservative estimate) of people who've read the rule haven't thought they can always march, so that should say a fair amount than your straw poll of two non-players...

Again you failed to understand the gist of what I'm saying.

Most players interpret rules not in accordance with the written rules but in accordance with a set of accepted 'practices'.
In doing so they fail to acquiesce the basic flaws of Fantasy rules, namely its lack of clear terms, phrases and definitions.

It is difficult for an experienced player like yourself to solely look at rules for what they are, rather than how they fit in with how you think the game should be played. This is why I strongly suggest that you show the set of rules to non players ,of reasonable intelligence and note their unbiased interpretation.

Fantasy rules is certainly not rocket science and any novice, of some intelligence, to the game should be able to understand its rules easily.

I've put myself in the position of such a player reading the Movement, marching and Ethereal rules for the first time and my conclusions are based on the rules as they are stated in the books, nothing less.

Rather than making a general spurious comment, it would be better for Xzazzarai if you explained which part of my argument you see as flawed.




Both rules equally well apply. An undead may not march if not a Vampire or in a certain distance from one. This applies to all of them. Certain Undead are Ethereal, and thus cannot be hindered from moving the normally allowed amount. This includes marching as well as marchblocking.

This supports my case above?



If the unit is marchblocked, it may not march, if the unit is not within the distance to the Vampire it may not march. Period.
Festus

And this is the alternative?

i.e. you would accept a dice roll to resolve this?

Eternus
04-06-2008, 10:47
My friends, this has gone on long enough.

Quite simply, Black Knights are affected by the 'Undead' Rules in their entirety - they can't march when outside the range of a Vampire's influence, they take additional damage from combat resolution etc, etc, etc.

Black Knights move as if they are Ethereal, but they are not actually Ethereal. The only benefit they gain is, like Ethereal units, they are not impeded by terrain that affect movement, including being able to move through buildings etc with out penalty AS IF THEY WERE ETHEREAL - BUT THEY ARE NOT ACTAULLY ETHEREAL.

That is all you need to know. Apart from that, they move, March, Charge and manouver like any other Undead unit, except they don't have to worry about terrain slowing them down.

It doesn't have to be that complicated. I understand people's arguments, but this seems to stem from the fact that people are misunderstanding the Ethereal movement rules. It's no big deal.

:)

EvC
04-06-2008, 13:14
That's correct Eternus, but your post sort of implies that normal ethereal units like Wraiths can always march, which is not the case either. I hope I'm just misreading it? :)


You seemed to have read my post with dismissive bias or you failed to understand it.

Again you failed to understand the gist of what I'm saying.

No, I get the gist of what you say. When you showed parts of the rules to two people who have no idea about the game, they both arrived at the same wrong conclusion. I'd be surprised if they didn't. Just because a layman doesn't understand something, doesn't mean it's not clear. That's Creationist-style thinking. That you even think you can infer anything at all from this is indeed laughable. Get someone else who thinks the rules are clear to present the rules to 10 non-players and see what they say. I'll listen.


Rather than making a general spurious comment, it would be better for Xzazzarai if you explained which part of my argument you see as flawed.

Don't pretend I didn't. I did explain why it was flawed, in the part of my post that you conveniently ignored: "If I didn't know better and someone asked me, "Hey, there's this unit that ignores all movement penalties. If a unit is march blocked, it loses half its movement. Do you think the unit ignores the marchblocking penalty?" then I'd probably agree that they can't be march blocked, too." That's the flaw. As I said, you didn't phrase it like that- but there would have been some bias in there. In your tone. Just by bringing it up, you're influencing them and making them think the rule is strange and unclear. It is certainly strange, of course ;)

I wouldn't personally accept a dice roll to resolve this, but then I'm the one using the Black Knights usually. If my opponent gets a rule wrong, I'm not going to take advantage of the situation.

Jiaolong
05-06-2008, 00:05
But seriously @ some of you, there is no reason to be rude. Grow up...

LOL I PLAY THE INTERNETS U DONT NO ME IM LIKE CHUCK NORRIS IF HE WAS SUPERMAN FAG [/scathing sarcasm]

It doesn't matter if an Undead unit is ethereal or not, they can't march unless they've got a vamp.

I'd be interested to know however: Undead troops mounted on Living mounts. Capable of marching or not?

lparigi34
05-06-2008, 01:38
LOL I PLAY THE INTERNETS U DONT NO ME IM LIKE CHUCK NORRIS IF HE WAS SUPERMAN FAG [/scathing sarcasm]

It doesn't matter if an Undead unit is ethereal or not, they can't march unless they've got a vamp.

I'd be interested to know however: Undead troops mounted on Living mounts. Capable of marching or not?

How do this happen?

Lordmonkey
05-06-2008, 09:05
Oh, don't be ridiculous. Marching is a kind of movement (inasmuch as it's a thing you do, during the Remaining Moves subphase of the Movement Phase, which results in a physical displacement of the lead and/or plastic on the table).

So does a cat jumping on the table top from a height of 9 feet, but is this classed as movement? :rolleyes:

At this ridiculously deep level of rules-picking, there are a lot of ways to slice it. But this immediately reflects the nature of this thread topic. The facts are:

"All undead units may not march unless within 6" of a vampire."

but also:

"Ethereal Movement:

They are also never affected by any special rule, spell or item that may would otherwise reduce their movement or stop them moving completely."

My argument is simply this: Not being allowed to march, or if you like, move double, is not the same as having your movement reduced. Rather, marching is an action you simply cannot take as a result of the undead rule.

Your movement remains unaffected.

Loopstah
05-06-2008, 09:36
"The normal movement rate of a model is defined by its Movement allowance (M) characteristic value".

"During their movement phase units can move up to their Movement allowance in inches."

So there we go. The normal movement rate of a model is clearly defined and we can therefore take any mention of movement as referring to this specific idea rather than the physical action of moving the models.

Now marching says:

"Marching troops move at twice their normal Movement rate"

So there we go, marching is a type of movement based on the "Movement value" of the model. It is also twice the "normal" rate, so it is clearly not normal movement.


If we read the Ethereal rules we see:

"They are also never affected by any special rule, spell or item that would otherwise reduce their movement..."

If we stop an Ethereal unit marching are we reducing its movement? No, because it can still move it's full Movement. Marching is an addition to movement and therefore the base movement isn't affected by removing the ability to march.

You just need to realise that their is a difference between physically moving the models and their Movement.

Whitehorn
05-06-2008, 09:40
(or unless within 12 of your general)