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Dras
02-06-2008, 00:10
Given that a two inch scatter should be acceptable, a Fire Prism will be able (in the new 5th edition rules) to hit larger target vehicles (such as Monoliths and Land Raiders) roughly 65 percent of the time (and roughly 87 percent of the time if it is twin-linked to another Fire Prism) when firing a focussed shot! (1/3 chance of hitting w/out scatter, 2d6-BS for scatter, re-roll both dice if you wish on any twin-linked blast weapon but you must keep the new roles)

Are eldar players out there planning on using them (I'm thinking about picking one or two up)?

I'm also interested in how people think the new rules for cover will affect their utility. It seems like it will be easier for them to get LOS, but that seems to cut both ways.

Any comments or suggestions mightely appreciated!

Stezerok
02-06-2008, 00:18
yea, I will definitely be using two in my army. The fact that cover is so readily available now is kind of a pain, but we're capable of targeting things easier, and the blasts by themselves are just enough to disrupt the enemy. For Fire Prisms I don't mind them not killing too much, its the idea that they're there in my DZ pounding away at stuff turn after turn after turn, that starts to really disrupt my opponents back field, and thats when the rest of the army needs to strike. I think they help a lot as long-range firepower becomes more desirable and they tend to really hurt our exposed infantry (Lootas come to mind...), so having a long-ranged counter of our own helps in that situation...

Plus things get better for Fire Prisms in that they can still move 12" and fire their one and only main weapon, but also don't have to worry as much about Immobilization any more.

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

madfiend9
02-06-2008, 00:24
Tried a couple of games under 5th ed rules using fire prisms. Unfortuneately the new LOS rules affect the FPT enormously as you can hardly get the tank completely outa LOS. As an effect against a clever opponent you will never be able to shoot. Also doesn't take much to get the crew shaken, so it's not like your opponent wastes a lot of fire on the tank unless he/ she really wants to get the thing destroyed as thats still pretty hard. Was a big fan of FPSs in 4th ed. but they likely are outa my list when 5th ed is released.

Hellebore
02-06-2008, 00:31
Did you take into account the fact that blasts still halve their S value if the central hole is not over the vehicle?

Hellebore

Stezerok
02-06-2008, 00:54
Did you take into account the fact that blasts still halve their S value if the central hole is not over the vehicle?

Hellebore

Whats the deal with this? I thought this was only for Ordnance?

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

TaintedSpam
02-06-2008, 01:16
Well, if it is only ordnance that that applies to, then the Prism Cannon might not be as bad as we thought...

Hellebore
02-06-2008, 01:16
Well the 4th ed rules say that ALL blast markers halve their strength (pg 65 under vehicle armour values) when the hole isn't on a vehicle.

It's just that almost all small blast weapons were direct fire so it never mattered (unless you tried to hit some infantry and clip a tank at the same time for example).

Afaik the 5th ed rules are still the same.

Hellebore

Stezerok
02-06-2008, 03:29
ah, I see... Well that being the case, could make Eldar Pulsars pretty terrible, although the size of most Superheavies is larger anyhow... meh, we'll see...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

BrPrometheus
02-06-2008, 04:27
Pulsars are D weapons. Auto pen. Strength doesn't matter.

Stezerok
02-06-2008, 04:31
Pulsars are D weapons. Auto pen. Strength doesn't matter.

what?

The profile I have is the same as a concentrated FP shot with Heavy 2 and Lance... Not sure where you got the D weapon from...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

cuda1179
02-06-2008, 04:43
Yeah, Pulsars are identical to Warhound Turbo lasers now. Strenth D for everyone!!!

Hellebore
02-06-2008, 04:48
Yeah, Pulsars are identical to Warhound Turbo lasers now. Strenth D for everyone!!!

Actually they're worse, they've got 36" shorter range...

Hellebore

dwnhmcntryboy
02-06-2008, 04:48
what?

The profile I have is the same as a concentrated FP shot with Heavy 2 and Lance... Not sure where you got the D weapon from...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok


Pulsar 60" range / Str D / AP 2 / Heavy2, 5" blast

Stezerok
02-06-2008, 05:32
Pulsar 60" range / Str D / AP 2 / Heavy2, 5" blast

hmm... well I think my Imperial Armor might be out of date then...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Hellebore
02-06-2008, 05:34
hmm... well I think my Imperial Armor might be out of date then...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

The newest rules are in the Apocalypse book, so people assume it takes precedence.

You can still use the old stats (I would for the Warhound, it got buffed so hard compared to the more expensive but worse revenant).

Hellebore

dwnhmcntryboy
02-06-2008, 06:20
The newest rules are in the Apocalypse book, so people assume it takes precedence.

You can still use the old stats (I would for the Warhound, it got buffed so hard compared to the more expensive but worse revenant).

Hellebore


True you can use the old stats. However Gw has always said and practiced that the most recent printing of any of the rules that affect their games overrule the former printings. So I guess it is not an assumption after all...wierd how that works when you look at all of the silly lil stuck together rectangle things with the funny squiggles on them. ;)

Idaan
02-06-2008, 10:11
I'm gonna use them because I like them for that twin-linked S6 AP3 Marine killer big blast. Although I have no idea how is a frakking laser beam supposed to scatter :wtf:

erion
02-06-2008, 10:18
I don't think this is meant to represent scatter in the traditional sense. Just that when you miss, the beam actually goes somewhere near the target instead disappearing into nothingness. This rule is going to make the dispersed shot from Tau Hammerhead railguns a lot more useful as well. Instead of doing nothing on a 1 or 2, the template still has a pretty good chance of catching a big chunk of infantry when it misses.

Starchild
02-06-2008, 13:03
Instead of doing nothing on a 1 or 2, the template still has a pretty good chance of catching a big chunk of infantry when it misses.Under true line of sight, does a scattering blast shot hit intervening terrain instead of simply appearing over a different location? :confused:

SanguinaryDan
02-06-2008, 17:40
I don't think this is meant to represent scatter in the traditional sense. Just that when you miss, the beam actually goes somewhere near the target instead disappearing into nothingness. This rule is going to make the dispersed shot from Tau Hammerhead railguns a lot more useful as well. Instead of doing nothing on a 1 or 2, the template still has a pretty good chance of catching a big chunk of infantry when it misses.

Except it doesn't hit on a 3+ anymore. It's a Blast weapon and ALL blasts scatter. So it's only got a 1 in 3 chance of going where you aimed or you're at the mercy of 2d6-BS. Or so I'm told.

ScytheSwathe
02-06-2008, 18:04
I love it! the last thread i read mentioning prisms was all about how theyll be useless come 5th. Good to see that im not the only one keeping a brace of prisms in my list. All in all, they are worse if you do the mathhammer, but theyre still worth having

Karhedron
02-06-2008, 22:35
Tried a couple of games under 5th ed rules using fire prisms. Unfortuneately the new LOS rules affect the FPT enormously as you can hardly get the tank completely outa LOS. As an effect against a clever opponent you will never be able to shoot. Also doesn't take much to get the crew shaken, so it's not like your opponent wastes a lot of fire on the tank unless he/ she really wants to get the thing destroyed as thats still pretty hard. Was a big fan of FPSs in 4th ed. but they likely are outa my list when 5th ed is released.
I find that the best protection for Fire Prisms is their long range. Cover is useful and always worth using if possible but the only weapon that can outrange it is the railgun. Unless you are facing Tau, you can usually ensure there is not much with the range to hit you back. If you opponent sends fast units like MM attack bikes after the Prism then he is reacting to your moves rather than taking the initiative. Plus there are plenty of friendly units that can provide protection

Hellebore
03-06-2008, 05:25
I don't think this is meant to represent scatter in the traditional sense. Just that when you miss, the beam actually goes somewhere near the target instead disappearing into nothingness. This rule is going to make the dispersed shot from Tau Hammerhead railguns a lot more useful as well. Instead of doing nothing on a 1 or 2, the template still has a pretty good chance of catching a big chunk of infantry when it misses.

Which is fine if its main role was as an anti infantry weapon, but the Fire Prism has been for the last 15+ years a tank killer. A scattering 3" template AT weapon is not particularly effective.

Considering it was never used in 3rd ed because it was BS3, they increased its BS to 4 to make it more attractive and now it's gone back to its 3rd ed effectiveness.

It's also a LOS vehicle. That AI blast template is the same S and AP as a Whirlwind but doesn't get to hide behind terrain and fire AND it costs 30+pts more.

I foresee the prism disappearing in 5th just as it did in 3rd. Unless people think that its cost is worth a LOS whirlwind anti infantry shot, in which case it won't be used for its original task anyway.

It's the eldar Hammerhead, but its anti tank shot is worse than the hammerheads in every way, simply because it has the Blast special rule.

Hellebore

Stezerok
03-06-2008, 05:36
Fire Prisms aren't going anywhere, it's linking ability is too good, and having an LoS whirlwind is also valuable in a meta where Orks and Nids suddenly became competitive with massed troops... But even on MEq's the small blast is still going to be effective, and even the large blast will be if used enough... last I heard 3+ armor wasn't invincible...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Ravenous
03-06-2008, 06:06
Nah I'll be leaving mine at home, they are unreliable now, being able to place the template is a big deal, having even scatter an inch or two can ruin a shot.

That and they loose the chance to shoot the shuriken cannon, and are auto assaulted on the back armour makes them much more vulnerable. Oh and the fact that everyone and their mom has a 4+ save in 5th makes the anti infantry blast poop against light troops.

Wraithlords are the prime choice again IMO.

Ianos
03-06-2008, 07:32
The FP is now THE anti infantry tank of choice for Eldar while maintaining some flexibility to strike at all targets (light/med/heavy inf&tanks) if necessary. In the horde army environment of 5th 2 str5 ap4 templates that never really miss will many times save an Eldar army from ruin.

madfiend9
03-06-2008, 13:59
I find that the best protection for Fire Prisms is their long range. Cover is useful and always worth using if possible but the only weapon that can outrange it is the railgun. Unless you are facing Tau, you can usually ensure there is not much with the range to hit you back. If you opponent sends fast units like MM attack bikes after the Prism then he is reacting to your moves rather than taking the initiative. Plus there are plenty of friendly units that can provide protection

True, long range is he best protection, but I find that this actually dictates you to moving to a position where you dont wanna be on the table as there arent plenty of places where you are outa the 48" range of AT stuff. FPs clearly wont be useless, but they wont be a top choice either anymore in my opinion.

Stezerok
03-06-2008, 14:46
Nah I'll be leaving mine at home, they are unreliable now, being able to place the template is a big deal, having even scatter an inch or two can ruin a shot.

That and they loose the chance to shoot the shuriken cannon, and are auto assaulted on the back armour makes them much more vulnerable. Oh and the fact that everyone and their mom has a 4+ save in 5th makes the anti infantry blast poop against light troops.

Wraithlords are the prime choice again IMO.

how so? With a 5 inch template, a 5 or a 6 roll will only scatter 1 or 2 inches, but they definitely will not "ruin" the shot. Depending on how you place, it may not be optimal but it will still be killing a fair number of guys...

Ok back armor you should only really worry about if the opponent is Outflanking because if they're in your DZ by this point then you've probably lost. But also what rules do you play with for the Dispersed Shot? if everyone and their mom has a 4+ save then the anti-infantry blast should be more like explosive nuclear poop against light infantry... :rolleyes: I'm afraid I don't see your logic on this last point...

but Wraithlords are going to be very good in this edition so I can't blame you for that.

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Avariel
03-06-2008, 16:15
The big question is is the blast half strength unless the hole is over the vehicle in 5th edition? If this is the case. Fire Prisms are not very good for anti tank anymore. If the blast is not half strength then they are still decent.

Ravenous
03-06-2008, 16:24
The big question is is the blast half strength unless the hole is over the vehicle in 5th edition? If this is the case. Fire Prisms are not very good for anti tank anymore. If the blast is not half strength then they are still decent.

Yes, unfortunately the "half strength if not on the hole" bit is still there.

Guided wraithlords with EMLs and Lances are a much better anti tank option.


how so? With a 5 inch template, a 5 or a 6 roll will only scatter 1 or 2 inches, but they definitely will not "ruin" the shot. Depending on how you place, it may not be optimal but it will still be killing a fair number of guys...

Ok back armor you should only really worry about if the opponent is Outflanking because if they're in your DZ by this point then you've probably lost. But also what rules do you play with for the Dispersed Shot? if everyone and their mom has a 4+ save then the anti-infantry blast should be more like explosive nuclear poop against light infantry... :rolleyes: I'm afraid I don't see your logic on this last point...

but Wraithlords are going to be very good in this edition so I can't blame you for that.

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

When I was refering to the ruined shot I was talking about the small template, there has been so many times being able to put the S9 Ap2 small blast template on top of a freshly deepstruck terminator squard won a game for me, but that will only happen 1/3rd of the time instead of 2/3rds of the time, not to mention you can use the run rule after you deepstrike.

As for the problems with the large blast; you are only throwing a S5 Ap4 template around, against Orks (which will be a big player in 5th) you're only wounding on 3s, so lets say you cover 9 Orks, 6 will be wounded on average, and because you shot through the grot wall, or through terrian only 3 of them will die.

That doesnt scream effective to me, and 9 is an optimal shot.

Im fairly certian that a Dark Reaper exarch with crack shot and the tempest launcher would be able to kill more.

Lorieth
03-06-2008, 17:48
When I was refering to the ruined shot I was talking about the small template, there has been so many times being able to put the S9 Ap2 small blast template on top of a freshly deepstruck terminator squard won a game for me, but that will only happen 1/3rd of the time instead of 2/3rds of the time, not to mention you can use the run rule after you deepstrike.

Remember that the scatter is 2D6-BS, so your chance to hit is not 1/3 but

1/3 + 2/3*(1/6) = 4/9

Not as good as 2/3 I'll grant you, but given that partials now count as full hits a 1" scatter will still be very useful even against close-packed infantry.

There is a rumour that some units might be able to run after deep striking, which would affect this tactic rather more!



As for the problems with the large blast; you are only throwing a S5 Ap4 template around, against Orks (which will be a big player in 5th) you're only wounding on 3s, so lets say you cover 9 Orks, 6 will be wounded on average, and because you shot through the grot wall, or through terrian only 3 of them will die.


Do you get the cover save automatically from blast weapons or is the shot counted as coming from the centre of the blast?

Ravenous
03-06-2008, 19:40
You can indeed run after deepstriking, and its only indirect weapons that you dont receive the save from (which is silly).

avatar of kaine
03-06-2008, 20:05
I don't know much about 5ed but i know Large balast/blast wepons do not scatter unless noted at the moment.

Stezerok
04-06-2008, 00:27
I don't know much about 5ed but i know Large balast/blast wepons do not scatter unless noted at the moment.

I'm not sure what you mean... I and others who have read the book have seen the all blasts roll on the scatter die and then scatter 2d6-bs...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

IJW
04-06-2008, 00:37
I don't know much about 5ed but i know Large balast/blast wepons do not scatter unless noted at the moment.
In case you've somehow missed it, ALL blast weapons scatter in 5th ed...

Dras
04-06-2008, 02:19
Do models get a 4+ cover save even against blast weapons? And if so, when? I mean do you roll for scatter, to wound, then each model wounded/damaged individually gets a 4+ save, or do you just role once, and if the enemy passes the save the whole blast has no effect? Sorry if this has been answered before on other threads, but I'm really confused (I actually feel like I'm growing stupider by the moment). It almost seems like you shouldn't get any cover save against fire prisms or anything that uses a blast marker, which would in turn definitely make them more powerful than many other otherwise comparable weapons.

ScytheSwathe
04-06-2008, 02:23
Dras, read the thread. The answer to you first question is literally 4 posts above yours. Also, each model is wounded/ saved individually as per current rules

Hellebore
04-06-2008, 02:32
Fire Prisms aren't going anywhere, it's linking ability is too good, and having an LoS whirlwind is also valuable in a meta where Orks and Nids suddenly became competitive with massed troops... But even on MEq's the small blast is still going to be effective, and even the large blast will be if used enough... last I heard 3+ armor wasn't invincible...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

That linking ability requires at least 230 pts - for 250pts you can get a land raider with twinlinked lascannons - the same stats as the prism except they actually hit more often.

On top of that you have to some how prevent BOTH of your tanks from being stunned or shaken so the other can fire in order to combine beams.

It's hard enough to do now.

I think people have been overawed by the novelty of the weapon to realise that it's just not an economical use of two vehicles. Increasing one vehicle's shot Strength and AP by 1 is NOT a good trade off from getting an extra shot.

The description of the tank is purely as AT in the eldar codex.

The new blast rules mean that it is better off targeting infantry; completely at odds with its designated role.

The only other AT weapon I can think of that suffers from this rule is the Imperial laser destroyer tank as it also has a blast (and is 12" longer ranged than the prism too, but then what do you expect from the technologically advanced eldar:rolleyes:).

Hellebore

Strey
04-06-2008, 02:33
Well the 4th ed rules say that ALL blast markers halve their strength (pg 65 under vehicle armour values) when the hole isn't on a vehicle.

It's just that almost all small blast weapons were direct fire so it never mattered (unless you tried to hit some infantry and clip a tank at the same time for example).

Afaik the 5th ed rules are still the same.

Hellebore

Has anyone had a chance to confirm whether or not this is still the same in 5th? Seems a rather important detail to help us determine the effectiveness of FP's in 5th.

Flo
04-06-2008, 03:53
I think the problem with the FP in 5th is not it's killing power, but its potential to actually unleash its destruction. Now that you can't hide, any smart opponent will make sure to cover the board with one form or another of AT weaponry. They only armies I possibly see having a hard time doing so are nids and orks. Otherwise, which other armies don't have access to min 48" AT guns?

Sure, FP are 60", but most boards are only 48" wide; so you have min 2x 48" guns and you can cover every inch of playing space.

Now if you had to draw LOS on a one-to-one basis, then maybe I would consider them. But the fact that you only need 1 model to see another to permit his entire squad to open fire (so I've understood by forum posts) makes it even easier to control LOS. The board has become simply one huge firing lane untill new terrain is designed to block TLOS.. and I doubt will see huge random walls/cliffs poping all over the place hehe :p

-Flo

Lorieth
04-06-2008, 16:19
Concerning their designated AT role, the scatter isn't too bad against all but the smallest vehicles. As I said before we have:

4/9 to hit direct (incl. 0" scatter)
2/27 to get 1" scatter (scatter and 2D6=5)

which brings us to 14/27 (about 52%, so BS3). However this is against a 2" square target - how many tanks are only 2" square?

Now consider a rhino chassis - it's 3"x5" IIRC, and those odd no. inches mean placing the blast centre in the middle is a bad idea. Place the centre 1" in from one side, and 2" from the rear. Now a scatter of 2" has a 2/3 chance to hit, and 3" has about 17% which bring our total up to about 60%.

60% vs 67% (BS4 direct) isn't really all that bad, and remember that all the 2" scatters that "miss" hit the side armour, and some of the 3" scatters that miss hit side or rear, so although the strength is halved the armour facing the shot is only 10/11 even on predators. Guide and/or linked fire will let you re-roll the scatter for an even better chance to hit.

Against bigger targets (like Land Raiders) the chances of hitting are at least as good as in 4th ed. so good all-round armour won't matter so much. The main reduction in accuracy is against small isolated targets like dreadnoughts, but unless the Fire Prism is your only AT that's unlikely to be too much of a problem.

Of course now the Eldar FAQ is out we know that you can link fire from a prism with LOS regardless of range, so with a big enough board you can make sure one of the tanks is fairly untouchable!


Now that you can't hide, any smart opponent will make sure to cover the board with one form or another of AT weaponry.

I know where you're coming from, but if you're right at the back of the battlefield there's a very restricted arc that long-range incoming fire can come from - plus the prism cannon is on the turret, so you can happily screen the vast majority of the tank and still be able to fire the only weapon you care about. The range means your opponent will probably get a cover save too, but it seems that'll be true a lot of the time in 5th.