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View Full Version : Flamers of tzeentch vs Flesh hounds of khorne



fubukii
02-06-2008, 00:24
hey i have been trying to come up with a 2000 point daemon army to use in a tournament/league setting. I was thinking of a 4 tzeentch herald chariot army with master of sorc and flames of tzeentch. then 3 units of horrors for core. Now i have extra points left and i cant decide between using all the points left on flesh hounds, or on flamers. both have their pros and cons here are some of them.

Flamers:
Pros:
slightly cheaper then flesh hounds
Str 5
d6 str 4 shots at 18inch range at bs 4, 5 for the champion
Skirmish so they can move freely in any direction
Can move through terrain with no penealty
Fits with the theme of the army
stand and shoot

Cons:
slower then fleshhounds
No mr3
slightly worse in cc
Cant negate Enemy rank bonus

Flesh hounds
Pros:
ws5
str 5
mv8 (3d6 pursue)
mr3
can break ranks

Cons:
slightly more pts
wheeling
Dont move through terrain freely
Have to wheel

Basically it will come to would it be more effective to shoot my enemy a bit first, or magic them to death then do a huge charge combo with a chariot and flesh hounds.

Lord Aries
02-06-2008, 00:30
Flamers are much stronger... and since you are going all TZ anyways...

theunwantedbeing
02-06-2008, 00:38
Flesh hounds, you'll want the combat ability.

fubukii
02-06-2008, 00:40
another issue i have come up with is if i play high elves, i wont be able to hurt any elves in dragon armor with flamers.

Condottiere
02-06-2008, 00:45
another issue i have come up with is if i play high elves, i wont be able to hurt any elves in dragon armor with flamers.

Not all of them wear flame-retardant PJs.;)

Oenghus
02-06-2008, 01:04
I've played against both -- and they're both pretty nasty. You'd be hard-pressed to make a really wrong decision on this one. I'd say that you should try them both out (proxy?) and see which one you can't live without. Flesh hounds are heavy-hitting cavalry (with light-cav saves, but an extra wound each). Flamers are, in big enough groups, (6 or so should do) nearly the match of salamanders -- and we all know how brutal those things are.

fubukii
02-06-2008, 01:32
well it may help if i post the list,

4 heralds of tzeentch - chariot, master of sorc, flames of tzeentch
3 units of 10 horrors
2 units of 6 furies
then either
3 units of 5 flesh hounds and more furies

or 2 units of 6 flamers with champions and 5 flesh hounds.

Dominatrix
02-06-2008, 18:58
Both choices have their uses and you did a pretty good job of listing each unit's pros and cons. If I were you (actually I did the same thing for my daemon army) use both and see which choice you like best. Flesh hounds will bring a lot more hitting power in your list whereas flamers will give you a very nasty shooty and maneuverable unit. You can't go wrong with any of the two really, just a matter of playstyle.

P.S. At the moment I am playtesting a tzeentch list that uses both flamers and flesh hounds.

fubukii
03-06-2008, 01:46
yea i think i may try 2 units of 4 flamers with champions and 2 units of 5 flesh hounds, best of both worlds.

Emeraldw
03-06-2008, 01:49
Hounds and flamers are both great. Personally if your going so horror heavy, take hounds if you want to offset your weakness or take flamers to go towards your strengths.

TIZNE
03-06-2008, 10:13
I've heard that Star dragons are popular in tournaments, so be prepared. I don't think that flesh hounds are a enough to defeat one.
You can only beat them with magic, but they will also have a couple scrolls to get some time. His dragon lord will probably be engaged in combat by turn 2 so it won't be a viable target for your strong spells.

And yes, probably not every player uses that dragon armour that makes you immune to fire and gives you a 2+ save.... but that's because not every player goes to a tournament.
Just be prepared for that.

Neknoh
03-06-2008, 12:19
Your 2x Flamers + 2x Hounds seem the best to me.

However, what I'd REALLY consider would be dropping the Flames from your heralds, you'll hardly ever be in a position where you want to shoot rather than charge, and in which case, you'll have moved if you are in said position. What I'd do instead would be to take the Corona and add a few kills to the combined chariot charges that way.

Also, take Screamers over Furies, really, they are better in most, if not every, way

snyggejygge
03-06-2008, 15:34
2 of each, or 2 flamer units & 1 flesh hound unit, flamers work better in this list, but hounds are too good to pass up.

fubukii
03-06-2008, 18:59
Your 2x Flamers + 2x Hounds seem the best to me.

However, what I'd REALLY consider would be dropping the Flames from your heralds, you'll hardly ever be in a position where you want to shoot rather than charge, and in which case, you'll have moved if you are in said position. What I'd do instead would be to take the Corona and add a few kills to the combined chariot charges that way.

Also, take Screamers over Furies, really, they are better in most, if not every, way

see i kind of disagree i thin screamers are better if taken in mass (like 10-15) but for the purporses of my list i needed units to go after warmachines and with str4 furies the same amount of wounds and attacks but roughly 1/3 of the cost i seemed like a better option to take furies as i can can fit more in. i dont think he 4 screamers will out perform 12 furies. last edition when screamers werent 30pt str/tough 3 1 wound models i would agree.

In addition to the flames of tzeentch idea, i was planning on spamming gift of chaos, flickering flames, and boon of tzeentch for a few turns before i charged into combat (while hiding behind/beside a unit) vs shooty armys i will charge their shooty units with the chariots then go back and spam my magic on their blocks. ALthough freeing up the 100 pts it costs could be a valid idea, i could add 3 more flamers, or 8 furies, so ill consider that

decker_cky
04-06-2008, 06:45
I've heard that Star dragons are popular in tournaments, so be prepared. I don't think that flesh hounds are a enough to defeat one.
You can only beat them with magic, but they will also have a couple scrolls to get some time. His dragon lord will probably be engaged in combat by turn 2 so it won't be a viable target for your strong spells.

And yes, probably not every player uses that dragon armour that makes you immune to fire and gives you a 2+ save.... but that's because not every player goes to a tournament.
Just be prepared for that.

4 flying chariots with non-flaming impact hits, a load of non-flaming magic missiles, and potentially several attempts at beast cowers per turn won't be enough to cover that? Yea....since a bolt of change won't tear a big hole in said dragon. ;)

Oh, another pro for the hounds is that they can be targeted by the wolf hunts, which is great on lore of beast heralds.

Kerill
04-06-2008, 09:01
Keep your flamers as 5 models or above for flank attacks.

TIZNE
05-06-2008, 16:29
4 flying chariots with non-flaming impact hits, a load of non-flaming magic missiles,

Chariot hits aren't flaming? I hope so. With the popularity of dragon armour this flaming blessing is not that cool.



Yea....since a bolt of change won't tear a big hole in said dragon.
Hell yeah, Bolt of change is awesome! :evilgrin: If you manage to cast it twice on his Lord on dragon, they will be death and gone, both of them!
On the downside, your opponent also knows that Bolt of change is that amazing, so he will scroll it on your first magic fase, and by your second one have engaged his dragon into combat, so he can no longer be a viable target.

But now, I haven't considered beast cowers...


And yeah, Screamers are great. Anything that dares to get near your lines will regret it!

By the way, Why not a LoC?

The_Dark_Lord
06-06-2008, 17:39
you should invest in a couple of units of screamers instead of furies. furies are pretty lame unless they are taking out enemy guns and such. but screamers can do that too, and they dont have to go into CC, they can fly over multiple units and so take down some more important things aswell

Fulgrim's-Chosen
06-06-2008, 22:51
It's debatable that the 4 Heralds of Tzeentch option might actually be "better" than the Lord of Change - 2 Heralds setup.


You essentially get more attempts to cast some of those nasty spells, with mostly the same chance of success.


If you mix it up - 2 Heralds with Lore of Beasts, 2 with Lore of Tzeentch - you can do some major damage and disruption to the enemy battle line.


As one poster noted, if you try Bolt of Change on an enemy Dragon or key unit, they will likely scroll it.

But imagine this for a first turn (for the Daemons)


- Horror block Flickering Fire's at the Dragon/general

- Horrro block Flickering Fire's at the Dragon/general

(have they tried to Dispel any of these ? Probably/possibly)

- Herald of Tzeentch casts Boon of Tzeentch

(They use 2 Dispel dice to stop it)

- That same Herald fires a 1-dice attempt Flickering Fire (4+) - say he fails

- Herald with Beast Lore uses "Beast Cowers" on Dragon/general

* Enemy HAS to scroll this, or his massive pointed key unit sits there useless in his next turn *

- Third Horror block Flickering Fire's another enemy unit


- 2nd Tzeentch Lore Herald casts Boon of Tzeentch

* How many Dispel Dice does the enemy have left ? Say he uses his last regular Dispel Dice to block this *

- 2nd Tzeentch Lore Herald casts Flickering Fire with 1-dice at the Dragon/General - 4+ / 50/50 if it gets cast or not


- 2nd Lore of Beasts Herald now hits the Dragon/General with ANOTHER "Beast Cowers"

* The enemy HAS to have a second scroll, and HAS to use it here, or his key unit is just sitting there next turn *

----------------------------------------

MOST armies don't run much more than 2-3 Scrolls - some less than that - so effectively, by the end of Turn-1, you should have depleted his entire scroll arsenal. That is HUGE. You now can cast with impunity (virtually) in the turns to come, knowing that your 4 Heralds can "out-magic" his Dispel dice.


This doesn't even take into account all the potential damage you did to the Dragon/general with all those Flickering Fire shots !


Yeah - Lore of Beasts // Lore of Tzeentch for the win ;)

W0lf
07-06-2008, 00:09
Someone hates Dragons :P

I really like Flesh hounds.

However i like Fiends more :P

Defender of Ulthuan
07-06-2008, 00:52
FLAMERS!

Unless I'm fielding my Caledor list, its a no brainer.

Quoted by every person ever fighting them, "What the !@#$ do you mean 6D6 S4 Shots! NO!!!! NOT 25 SHOTS!!"

Enemy Unit v. Flamers = Enemy Unit decimated!

With the amount of regen being force-fed into warhammer these days, those S4 flaming shots are priceless.

This unit always doubles it's points.

Unless you're immune to psych, there's a panic check involved whenever these guys target you. If you live that long.

Defender

decker_cky
07-06-2008, 00:59
you should invest in a couple of units of screamers instead of furies. furies are pretty lame unless they are taking out enemy guns and such. but screamers can do that too, and they dont have to go into CC, they can fly over multiple units and so take down some more important things aswell

I dunno, I like furies more. They're sorta a bodyguard for my LoC. They're decent fighters, but can play a very nice temporary 'swarm' to hold up units on the general's Ld9 (possibly with BSB backup). My current list has 5 furies to be annoying and 10 furies for versatility. Use those furies and tie up a dragon for a turn, setting you up for a combo charge (which is easy enough with tzeentch).

(By the way, regarding the herald vs LoC, I believe in 2000 pts the heralds would generally be better, but I run the LoC because I love the model I have for it.)

The_Dark_Lord
08-06-2008, 18:08
I dunno, I like furies more.

fair enough :D everyone likes different thingys

fubukii
08-06-2008, 19:31
THe reason i took 4 chariots over a loc is that i feel they are more survivable. 1 great cannon shot can kill a loc, but only one of my heralds. Granted my chariots are slightly more vunerable to other missle fire, but ill just have to use my flying movement and terrain to stay out of los of handguns and xbows. Or just hit them with flickering flames a few times until they hopefully panic. In addition i could charge the missle units with the flyin chariot then spam gift of chaos and boon of tzeetch up close and personal.

yoshimo
18-07-2008, 22:31
Flamers vastly superior to flesh hounds. flamers can do missile and are viable for close combat, flesh hounds are only viable for close combat. same points cost = no-brainer

TheWarSmith
20-07-2008, 18:38
Well, I think you're making a mistake with only having 3x10 units of horrors. It won't take much to piddle that down to a point where they can't cast(only gotta kill 5), and your heralds won't be in the units, so they won't have the added 4+ to make them more resilient.

If all you have is 30 horrors, I'd still merge them and have 2x15.

If you do have the models, you clearly have the points to invest in more horrors instead of taking a VERY high amount of points of hounds/flamers. Gift of chaos is a WONDERFUL spell by turn 3+, and once again, it'll force his wandering mages and stuff into units which you can tie up in combat.

to the original question, I'd say flamers. It's nice to have some fairly more consistent and non luck driven attacks.

I HIGHLY suggest taking at least a unit of screamers. Their ability to pick off solo models will greatly alter how your opponent has to play.