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Captain Keen
02-06-2008, 04:14
hey everybody,

I have some unclearities:

q1:I was wondering about some contradictiveness in my rulebook. at page 19 it says at 'stand & Shoot' that if my charged unit has missile weapons, then it can stand and shoot.
at some missile weapons in my army book (empire) it says at rules: 'always stand and shoot'. Now why do some weapons have this rule when in the rulebook it says that units under charge with missile weapons may stand and shoot as reaction at being charged? Does that not go for all ranged weapons then?

q2: at 'move or fire' (p53) it states that a model that has moved, will never be able to shoot his gun.
at 'fast cavalry' (p70) it says they can move and fire.
I play a lot of games (Magic and other cardgames and boardgames), and usually the 'can't' -option prevails over the 'can'-option. But how about in this game? Can fast cav's do it or not?

q3: the ranged weapons that don't have the rules of 's&s' or "w/f" (like shortbows).....don't they have either option at all then? One is a good thing, and the other is a bad thing, so I am a little confused as you can see.

thx in advance (but don't charge me :p )
Koen

Tarian
02-06-2008, 04:20
1) You cannot normally stand and shoot if the enemy is within half their charge range. Pistols allow you to shoot anyways.

2) Outriders CANNOT move and fire.

3) I don't know what you're asking, sorry.

That'll be 2 gil. ^^

Captain Keen
02-06-2008, 05:16
I asked around on some other forms as well, so this may clear some things up for us..
http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=22962.new#new

2: someone at this site above says that outriders CAN.
3: s&s=stand and shoot and m/f=move or fire (I was wondering why some guns have one or the other, and why some don't have any of this rules, since there are generic rules that seem to go for all guns)

thanks for the reply.

Captain Keen
02-06-2008, 05:19
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=120901#post120901

And just to be on the safe site....

ehlijen
02-06-2008, 05:29
All weapons can stand and shoot.

Only pistols (and other specifially noted special weapons) can stand and shoot if the enemy is within half his charge range.

Fast cavalry can march and shoot (which few other things can do), that's their special ability. As marching is still moving, even fast cav is still bound by the move or fire rule of any weapon they possess.

Weapons without "always stand and shoot" and without "move or shoot" (or any other special rule) just follow the basic shooting rules: they can shoot (at -1 if they moved) and stand and shoot if allowed as described in the charge section of the BRB but cannot 'always stand and shoot' nor shoot after marching.

Captain Keen
02-06-2008, 18:21
thanks for the replies

Captain Keen
02-06-2008, 18:51
I read on another site that rulebook rules are overriden by army book special rules. At armybook special rules of outriders (page 78 armybook empire), it says 'fast cavalry'. making this the special rule, therefore overriding the general rule of 'move or fire'
So following the override-rule, I would state that outriders may move and shoot with weapons that say 'move or shoot' with a -1 penalty.
This makes sence to me, but some peaple say this, and some that.

Nurgling Chieftain
02-06-2008, 19:37
There's no overruling involved; they have the fast cavalry rule, and their codex-specific weapons have the move or fire rule, both of which are main rulebook rules referenced in the Empire codex. They're not contradictory rules. The rule which fast cavalry contradicts (and does, indeed, override) is the rule that you cannot fire when marching.

Lord Inquisitor
02-06-2008, 20:01
As mentioned already, the fast cavalry rule means that outriders would be allowed to march and shoot - if they were allowed to move and fire at all, which they aren't.

Note that they still benefit from the other bonuses for fast cavalry, such as the 360-degree fire arc.

Toonces
03-06-2008, 02:43
As mentioned already, the fast cavalry rule means that outriders would be allowed to march and shoot - if they were allowed to move and fire at all, which they aren't.

Note that they still benefit from the other bonuses for fast cavalry, such as the 360-degree fire arc.

Another way of looking at it (sorry if I'm beating a dead warhorse here) is that Outrideres can march and shoot - but the weapons most of them carry can NEVER be fired when the model carrying them have moved. If the Outriders magically dropped their repeater handguns and grabbed, say, shortbows, they would be able to March and shoot.

I'd have to double check my army book at home, but you might be able to configure the Outrider Champ with a weapon that isn't "move or shoot" - in that case, the Champ could take a shot, even the rest of the folks in the group could not.

Faustburg
03-06-2008, 11:13
Sure, you can swap his Repeater Hand gun for a Pistol and Repeater Pistol at no cost, giving you the possibility of a handful of shots during the turns you might be moving your Outriders.

Not really worth it though...

bosstroll
03-06-2008, 12:00
I read on another site that rulebook rules are overriden by army book special rules. At armybook special rules of outriders (page 78 armybook empire), it says 'fast cavalry'. making this the special rule, therefore overriding the general rule of 'move or fire'
So following the override-rule, I would state that outriders may move and shoot with weapons that say 'move or shoot' with a -1 penalty.
This makes sence to me, but some peaple say this, and some that.

The rules for repeater handguns are in the empire book aswell.

DeathlessDraich
03-06-2008, 12:29
I asked around on some other forms as well, so this may clear some things up for us..
http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=22962.new#new

2: someone at this site above says that outriders CAN.
3: s&s=stand and shoot and m/f=move or fire (I was wondering why some guns have one or the other, and why some don't have any of this rules, since there are generic rules that seem to go for all guns)

thanks for the reply.

1) All you need are the rule books and FAQs. The above site and Warseer are not rules authorities

2) Stand and Shoot - The only 2 requirements are (pg19):
A) The charged unit must be armed with missile weapons
B) The charging unit must be more than half their charge move.

3) Missile weapons are given in the list on pg 17.
Handguns and Pistols are missile weapons but whether Repeater Handguns are missile weapons is debated by some players.
Since a Treeman's roots are also deemed to be missile weapons, I'm sure that it can be assumed that Repeater Handguns/Hochland/Blunderbuss must be missile weapons as well.

4) Repeater Pistols fortunately clearly state that it can S&S and must therefore be missile weapons.
Similarly Pigeon Bombs are missile weapons

Condottiere
03-06-2008, 13:32
4) Repeater Pistols fortunately clearly state that it can S&S and must therefore be missile weapons.
Similarly Pigeon Bombs are missile weapons

Do Repeater Pistols suffer the penalty for multiple shot?

Can they do multiple shot for S&S?

Pigeons Bombs? S&S? Seriously?:wtf:

Captain Keen
03-06-2008, 18:00
Hahaha, well... thanks for clearing this up then...
I wonder if I can summon a whole flock of birds at once.....a little houseruling never hurts...:chrome: :chrome: :chrome:

DeathlessDraich
04-06-2008, 10:16
Do Repeater Pistols suffer the penalty for multiple shot?

Can they do multiple shot for S&S?

Pigeons Bombs? S&S? Seriously?:wtf:

If a missile weapon states X multiple shots , then it has to follow the Multiple shot rules - Repeaters have to abide by this rule.

Yes in the same way that DE Xbows can

Yes, Pigeon Bombs rules clearly state they are missile weapons.

Captain Keen
04-06-2008, 18:37
DE=?
And can I mono-shoot a multiple shooter? (if the -1 penalty for multishooting might be unwanted?)

Gorbad Ironclaw
04-06-2008, 19:03
Dark Elves.

And yes, you don't have to use the multiple shot rule. However there isn't that many cases where you are better of shooting single shots over multiple shots.

Captain Keen
04-06-2008, 19:15
ah. I just read it on page 55, yes.
It says there that I can shoot as many times as indicated in their rules, at an additional -1 penalty. I presume that this penalty is not cumulative per fire shoot with same gun right?
So a gun with multishot x4 doesn't get a -4 penalty? Just the -1? (I guess this would be silly..)

Jonke
04-06-2008, 22:19
It's just -1.

Captain Keen
05-06-2008, 06:29
:rolleyes:Thank shootness.

And for now I have run out of silly questions. I'll be back when I feel smarter.:p (or am I quoting Arnold now? Hmmm....)

Griefbringer
05-06-2008, 06:40
However there isn't that many cases where you are better of shooting single shots over multiple shots.

Skinks with poisoned darts come to my mind - there hitting with 6+ with one shot is better than hitting with 7+ on two shots.

WLBjork
05-06-2008, 08:14
Anything hitting on 6+ is better than multiple shots at 7+, given that the chance to hit per shot goes from 1/6 to 1/12!

Griefbringer
05-06-2008, 08:27
Anything hitting on 6+ is better than multiple shots at 7+, given that the chance to hit per shot goes from 1/6 to 1/12!

Not really, if you use the statistical average number of hits per model per turn. One shot at 6+ to hit results in the same average as 2 shots at 7+ to hit (ie. 1/6 hits per model per turn), though they have slightly differing distributions of results. And three shots at 7+ to hit would be definitely better than one shot at 6+ to hit.

However, with poisoned attacks special rule you only gain the benefit if you need 6+ or better to hit, you cannot gain it if you need 7+ to hit.