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Partisan Rimmo
02-06-2008, 16:54
Hey guys and girls

I have a copy of the main part of the 5th ed rules, which I've been reading in detail. I can confirm these ARE final :)

Mostly its entirely what we expect, so I'm just going to state a few points which I've not noticed anywhere else:


Area Terrain DOES exist for determining where Difficult Terrain and Cover Saves start and stop. However, if you cannot be seen in the Area Terrain (eg due to being behind something big) then you cannot be shot at, though you can be a casualty. Also, if LOS can be drawn through Area Terrain, then anything behind the Area Terrain can be shot at, but it receives the Area Terrain cover save.

Run is as predicted, but Falling Back models may run backwards if they so choose.

If you Go to Ground you are not Pinned, but if you are Pinned you Go to Ground, though the cover bonus does not apply against the unit which caused you to be pinned.

Instant Death kills full wound models first (Ogryns tremble...)

There is a 4+ Cover save through shooting through units of any type, but infantry do NOT block LOS. Interestingly, I think this means Cameoline boosts this save.

Small blasts scatter 2D6 - Firer's BS, assuming an arrow is rolled.
Multiple blasts scatter separately.

Snipers have lost the 2+ to hit, but are now S3 against vehicles. Combined with Rending, this gives a possible Penetration 12, so light tank hunting is on the cards.

Slight rearrangement of working out multiple blasts, but that's just a mechanics issue. I don't think its better or worse.

Fantasy style combat resolution! A unit has a minus modifier to its leadership equal to what it lost the combat by.

Harsher No Retreat! A unit takes saves equal to the number it lost combat by. Also, if a unit cannot be hurt by its attackers, it can ignore No Retreat.

A unit gets a free 3" move when it rallies.

Consolidation always moves D6" and never locks units in Hand to hand

All units must be charged in a phase before any rolls to hit are made. I bet this will catch a few people out.

Defender's response: If a unit is charged, it must move all models 6" to get them closer to base to base with the enemy. This means no more dodging power fists through creative charging.


Haven't got to vehicles yet, but I'll comment when I do.

All the old rumours I recall reading are basically right, so I won't repeat them. If you have any questions, ask me.

IJW
02-06-2008, 16:56
All units must be charged in a phase before any rolls to hit are made. I bet this will catch a few people out.
Isn't that identical to 4th ed?

Reticent
02-06-2008, 17:13
Defender's response: If a unit is charged, it must move all models 6" to get them closer to base to base with the enemy. This means no more dodging power fists through creative charging.

MUST the defender move, or is it optional?

don_mondo
02-06-2008, 17:13
Instant Death kills full wound models first (Ogryns tremble...)

A unit gets a free 3" move when it rallies.


Isn't that identical to 4th ed?

So are these..............

BrotherErekose
02-06-2008, 17:40
Yeah, actual 5th edition Big Rule Books have made their way to independent retailers and my grubby finger prints are all over the local store's copy, not for sale, but just advanced copies.

Even played a game with the book available to reference (It was chained to an ogryn body guard, so I had to hold my nose when checking on things :p ).

Many of the rumors were accurate, and sorry, I don't have the set up here at work to detail out more than Partisan Rimmo has.

Wound allocation (for those who aren't familair with WH fantasy, like me) did take a little longer to resolve, as you have to point out which guy is going to take the las cannon wound, the plasma wound and the bolter wounds before rolling dice. It means those power wepped sergeants won't always be the Last Man surviving the unit anymore.

The book itself is the same binding quality of the last one. :(

GW's writing, in general, seems to have been really conscientious about addressing a lot of those little gray areas of the game, like dice etiquette for example. I think it was a really good effort at addressing a lot of the gaps left in 4th ed. 'Course, this is only with 4 odd hours of time with the book. Gimme a few more hours with my own copy and something might come up to complain about.
:cool:

rakath
02-06-2008, 17:52
If you Go to Ground you are not Pinned, but if you are Pinned you Go to Ground, though the cover bonus does not apply against the unit which caused you to be pinned.


Sorry could you clarify this?
"Go to ground" gives you +1 to cover save, right? So if you voluntarily "go to ground", you get the bonus but aren't pinned next round?
Why shouldn't you always go to ground with every unit always? Free +1 cover for everyone!

Nurgling Chieftain
02-06-2008, 17:58
So if you voluntarily "go to ground", you get the bonus but aren't pinned next round?

If you "Go to Ground" you do nothing next turn. Pinning weapons force you to make a pin check or "Go to Ground". So, there is no "pinned" state in 5th edition, or rather, it's re-named, gives you +1 cover, and you can do it voluntarily.

ScytheSwathe
02-06-2008, 18:10
Ditto reticent. Im concerned about that one




Defender's response: If a unit is charged, it must move all models 6" to get them closer to base to base with the enemy. This means no more dodging power fists through creative charging.
MUST the defender move, or is it optional?

dwnhmcntryboy
02-06-2008, 18:18
Isn't that identical to 4th ed?


The charge rules are a little bit different in the fact that as soon as you declare the charge with a unit you must move that unit immediatly into base to base. Also on the initial charge you must move model to model. One model can only engage one model untill every model is in single base to base. Then if there is a gap you may have other models move in to engage 2 or more models. There is no more wrap around charging. You must take the most direct route to get into base to base.

Another tricky issue is that you can no longer walk, run or charge over the base of a friendly model. So it is a little more tricky but very interesting.

Bloodknight
02-06-2008, 18:26
Could you elaborate on multiple blasts on one unit (how does it work? As now, one causes casualties and the next one therefore hits less, or as in late 3rd edition, multiplying the hits of the first one?). And how do multiple barrages work?

dariusorleans
02-06-2008, 18:29
Of interest i thought was the Vehicle Squadron Rules.
While the Immobilized = Destroyed result does indeed exist.
Vehicle Squadrons effectively have free Extra Armor as well.
(Treating all Shaken results as stunned) So they pick up something and lose another.
Also last member of a Vehicle Squadron doesn't keep the "Squadron" rules when its by itself.

Bloodknight
02-06-2008, 18:51
(Treating all Shaken results as stunned)

I hope it's the other way round...;) Might be good for Sentinels.

neophryte
02-06-2008, 19:13
Ditto reticent. Im concerned about that one

I don't really understand why you would not want to do that? Wounds are taken from anywhere in the unit - I guess maybe if you are worried about multi initiative units you could pull from base to base? Is that why it is mattering to you? Basically already looking for ways to bend the rules ;-)

cochise
02-06-2008, 19:14
Another tricky issue is that you can no longer walk, run or charge over the base of a friendly model. So it is a little more tricky but very interesting.:confused::confused:

Donīt think you can do that in 4th edition either. You can run through the gaps between model bases, but over them? Only if you fly or "jump" I think.

big squig
02-06-2008, 19:15
So do units (friend or foe) NEVER EVER block line of sight?

Badger
02-06-2008, 19:22
i would like to know, what happens to passengers if there "car" is shaken,stunned, penetrated(but not destroyed)...

and do monstrous creatures and/or vehicles get cover from infantry (that stands between them and the shooter)

greetings Badger

SlaughterSong
02-06-2008, 19:28
i think one of the best rules concerns ICs in retinues being part of the unit for combat, makes my grandmaster prettyy sweet, as a hidden strength 6 force weapon, though he can't kill things that are immune to instant death anymore

though the fact that u can no longer consolidate into another unit in close combat kills so many tactics and really helps my tau army

AgeOfEgos
02-06-2008, 19:34
I'm confused by multiple blasts. Could you explain, as an example, how a 4 man Plasma dev squad would work? Mucho appreciated!

nathonicus
02-06-2008, 19:39
i would like to know, what happens to passengers if there "car" is shaken,stunned, penetrated(but not destroyed)...

and do monstrous creatures and/or vehicles get cover from infantry (that stands between them and the shooter)

greetings Badger

I did a 45 minute read through the rules section yesterday at my LGS, and I believe that troops embarked in a vehicle may not fire if their vehicle is shaken/stunned, but are otherwise unaffected unless it is wrecked/exploded. I believe this means no more auto-disembark for a penning hit.

I think Infantry give cover to MCs, but NOT to vehicles. They have a picture example of what gives a vehicle cover, and they say that trees, infantry, etc., don't cut it. It has to be more than %50 out of sight, like, half way behind a hill, building, tank-slot, etc.

Cheers,

LokkoRex
02-06-2008, 19:41
anything on the relentless rule(MC:s, (jet)bikes, and tanks can fire heavy weapons while moving)?

and the rumoured -1 attack for powerfists?

biztheclown
02-06-2008, 19:45
Consolidation always moves D6" and never locks units in Hand to hand


Does this mean no contacting enemies altogether or just unengaged enemies?

nathonicus
02-06-2008, 19:47
anything on the relentless rule(MC:s, (jet)bikes, and tanks can fire heavy weapons while moving)?

and the rumoured -1 attack for powerfists?

Yeah, sorry, relentless is not for tanks. (Unless they give it to a tank in a new codex :P) The rumoured changes for weapons firing on vehicles are as stated in the rumor threads. MCs get to fire two weapons, not sure about bikes.

"Special" close combat weapons only give an extra attack if paired with another cc weapon of the same type, so no more getting an extra powerfist attack from your bolt pistol, has to be 2 power fists.

Nurgling Chieftain
02-06-2008, 19:48
Ditto reticent. Im concerned about that oneYou have to "counter-charge".


The charge rules are a little bit different in the fact that as soon as you declare the charge with a unit you must move that unit immediatly into base to base. Also on the initial charge you must move model to model. One model can only engage one model untill every model is in single base to base. Then if there is a gap you may have other models move in to engage 2 or more models. There is no more wrap around charging. You must take the most direct route to get into base to base.

Another tricky issue is that you can no longer walk, run or charge over the base of a friendly model.That's not right... Generally where it's correct, it's not different from 4th edition, and where it's different from 4th edition it's not correct.


Could you elaborate on multiple blasts on one unit (how does it work? As now, one causes casualties and the next one therefore hits less, or as in late 3rd edition, multiplying the hits of the first one?). And how do multiple barrages work?Multiple barrages work essentially the same as in 4th. Other blasts scatter as rumoured (2d6-BS); each blast is scattered independently (so not like multiple barrages at all); all hits are totalled up before any to-wound rolls are made.


i would like to know, what happens to passengers if there "car" is shaken,stunned, penetrated(but not destroyed)...Shaken and penetrated results have no effect on passengers (well, unless the pen result is something which affects the passengers). Stunned results prevent the passengers from firing from within the vehicle, but they can still disembark and are then unaffected.


and do monstrous creatures and/or vehicles get cover from infantry (that stands between them and the shooter)Yes, if the infantry is not swarms and covers at least 50% of the model. ...Which is a lot like saying "no" in most cases!


I'm confused by multiple blasts. Could you explain, as an example, how a 4 man Plasma dev squad would work? Mucho appreciated!Place the first blast. Roll 2d6-BS and a scatter die to see where it ends up. Count the hits. Roll another die; if it's a one, take an overheat save! Repeat for each plasma cannon. Once you've fired all four, take the total number of hits on each unit struck (intentionally or otherwise) and roll to wound for each unit. Proceed as usual from there...

Stingray_tm
02-06-2008, 19:52
Harsher No Retreat! A unit takes saves equal to the number it lost combat by. Also, if a unit cannot be hurt by its attackers, it can ignore No Retreat.


Does "No Retreat" only come into effect against outnumbering opponents, or every time a fearless unit loses combat?

Warsmith Strader
02-06-2008, 19:56
I looked at the new rules saturday at the ard boyz tourney round 2

Plasma cannons do get hot still, you roll a d6 before placing the template, if a 1 is rolled the shot didn't happen and the models need a armour save as normal....

The force weapon is a pyschic power now..... yeah for tzeentchian sorcerors!:D

Luv the new artwork in the book and the fact that GW has advanced the story..... the diagrams in the book are a pleasant not grey area change... even for moving tanks!

SlaughterSong
02-06-2008, 19:56
fearless unit loses cc

Nurgling Chieftain
02-06-2008, 20:00
Does "No Retreat" only come into effect against outnumbering opponents, or every time a fearless unit loses combat?
Every time. Outnumbering no longer affects the "No Retreat" rule - or the morale check, for that matter.

Badger
02-06-2008, 20:00
thx for those answers (even if they differ slightly ^^)!

guardians with conceal, wraithguard and a wraithlord (all in cover formation) move through open ground and all get cover saves! :)

with that lasts piece of information i take the crown of 5th edition and give it to the allmighty wraithlord!

-option to run
-immunity to most rending attacks (biggest enemy of him in 4th)
-most of the time 4+ cover
-less powerfists overall (second biggest enemy in 4th)

all hail the "5th King" !!!

greetings Badger

LokkoRex
02-06-2008, 20:08
aw, dang! i bet that minus attack is just so more people will get that smurf general(which i hate)

good for wraithlords, none the less

so, no vehicles AT ALL capable of firing str 5 or more heavy weapons while moving?(i just wanna be sure, sorry if this is annoying)

Stingray_tm
02-06-2008, 20:08
fearless unit loses cc


Now that sucks. That means, i can't even bind Space Marines in Combat with my Gaunts, because they will probably kill twice the amount of Gaunts they used to in 4th edition.

Partisan Rimmo
02-06-2008, 20:11
Hi all


MUST the defender move, or is it optional?

The defender MUST move his models towards the enemy, even if this is not in his best interests.



Sorry could you clarify this?
"Go to ground" gives you +1 to cover save, right? So if you voluntarily "go to ground", you get the bonus but aren't pinned next round?
Why shouldn't you always go to ground with every unit always? Free +1 cover for everyone!

Ah, I could have been clearer on this one. It's a technicality really. Units that Go to Ground CANNOT do anything till their next turn. If a unit is pinned, it automatically enters the Go to Ground status against its will. This means that if a special rule or some such affects 'Pinned' units, it will not affect a unit that has voluntarily Gone to Ground. The Pinned state does exist though, it's just subtly different from going to ground.



Could you elaborate on multiple blasts on one unit (how does it work? As now, one causes casualties and the next one therefore hits less, or as in late 3rd edition, multiplying the hits of the first one?). And how do multiple barrages work?

It works as neither actually. What you do is place each blast one by one, counting the number of hits each one achieves. Then you total these up, THEN you roll to wound. It's a considerable increase in power I think.



Originally Posted by Partisan Rimmo:
All units must be charged in a phase before any rolls to hit are made. I bet this will catch a few people out.

Isn't that identical to 4th ed?

It is not. You'll notice I said all 'units', not all 'models', i.e. you have to go across the whole board and move every single charging unit forwards into base to base before you roll to hit with any of them. Much like the Fantasy system.



So do units (friend or foe) NEVER EVER block line of sight?

Exactly. Which means its very hard for a unit to get out of LOS, unless it sits behind a tank. You'll get a 4+ cover save at least if there are troops in the way, or the enemy will depending on which way things are going.




I'm confused by multiple blasts. Could you explain, as an example, how a 4 man Plasma dev squad would work? Mucho appreciated!

For each plasma cannon, pick a model in range and Line of sight, and place the small blast template on their head. Then, for each cannon individually, roll a scatter dice and 2D6. If you roll a hit, the shot lands where you wanted. If you roll an arrow, move the blast in the direction by the 2D6 minus the firer's BS (in this case 4). All partial hits now count as full hits. After this has been done for all 4 plasma cannons, count the number of models that are under each template. Add these numbers up, and roll to wound with that many dice. The enemy squad then takes that many wounds.

Interestingly, if you have other weapons in the squad, i.e. boltguns, you can fire them into the enemy before rolling to wound with the blast weapons, them give the enemy the armour saves together, to affect wound allocation.



i think one of the best rules concerns ICs in retinues being part of the unit for combat, makes my grandmaster prettyy sweet, as a hidden strength 6 force weapon, though he can't kill things that are immune to instant death anymore

Nice! This one had slipped me by, but yup, you're right. Looks like it's time for the Incubi to come out of retirement.

IJW
02-06-2008, 20:17
The force weapon is a pyschic power now.....
It is in 4th ed.


-immunity to most rending attacks (biggest enemy of him in 4th)
:confused:
There are slightly fewer rending wounds than in 4th, but the Wraithlord is no more immune to them than any other non-vehicle model.

EDIT:

Hi all
It is not. You'll notice I said all 'units', not all 'models', i.e. you have to go across the whole board and move every single charging unit forwards into base to base before you roll to hit with any of them.
I know I'm being over-picky in this thread, but that's exactly how it works now in 4th ed. - all charge moves are made before you start resolving hits or anything.

Reticent
02-06-2008, 20:20
The defender MUST move his models towards the enemy, even if this is not in his best interests.

Thanks for replying!

That seems like a big and potentially nasty deal to me. I can just picture the use of small, cheap, expendable units charging into hopeless combats to shift enemy units out of position.

Partisan Rimmo
02-06-2008, 20:29
There are slightly fewer rending wounds than in 4th, but the Wraithlord is no more immune to them than any other non-vehicle model.
.

I think he's right actually.

Since Rending is now made on the to Wound roll, if you cannot Wound, you cannot roll, and so you cannot Rend.

EDIT* Oh, and maybe you're right on the charging thing. I can't be bothered to go across my room to look it up in the 4th ed book. If so, then I owe some people an apology, but nevermind eh? I doubt it made any difference.

ScytheSwathe
02-06-2008, 20:31
^Reticent. Precisely, I for one dont fancy pathfinders being pulled out of cover, or any other heavy weapon armed troops for that matter.

^Partisan. But you can wound on a 6, so roll away. Thats the point. Otherwise rend would be really useful....

biztheclown
02-06-2008, 20:32
"Special" close combat weapons only give an extra attack if paired with another cc weapon of the same type, so no more getting an extra powerfist attack from your bolt pistol, has to be 2 power fists.

We have only heard that this applies to powerfists so far. Does it also apply to ALL special weapon attacks? Witchblades? Power Weapons? Poisoned Weapons?

I would also like an unmbiguous answer about consolidating? No contacting ANY enemies regardeless of engaged status?

Partisan Rimmo
02-06-2008, 20:39
It only applies to Power Fists, Thunderhammers and Lightning Claws. Other one handed Special Close combat weapons are fine.


Quote: A consolidation move may not be used to move into base contact with enemy models, as this can only be done with an assault move.


Also I don't think units will be pulled out of cover by charge reaction moves. Bear in mind the enemy has to charge you in the same fashion as normal, THEN you move. Meaning the models the enemy contacts in base to base, i.e. most of them, won't move at all, and the other models in the unit will be moving towards the close combat, and therefore are unlikely to end up further forward than the models in base to base.

IJW
02-06-2008, 20:41
Since Rending is now made on the to Wound roll, if you cannot Wound, you cannot roll, and so you cannot Rend.
I'll have to check tomorrow when I'm near a store, but I don't remember anything about not normally being able to wound stopping you rolling. 'Cannot wound' = 'cannot wound' not 'never roll', rather like rolling a double one always succeeding for Morale checks regardless of the modifiers.


We have only heard that this applies to powerfists so far. Does it also apply to ALL special weapon attacks? Witchblades? Power Weapons? Poisoned Weapons?
From memory, it's Powerfists, Thunder Hammers and Lightning Claws.

Partisan Rimmo
02-06-2008, 20:52
I'll have to check tomorrow when I'm near a store, but I don't remember anything about not normally being able to wound stopping you rolling. 'Cannot wound' = 'cannot wound' not 'never roll', rather like rolling a double one always succeeding for Morale checks regardless of the modifiers.


It's a questionable point, but I don't think they can. Quote again, in reference to the To Wound chart:

Note that N on the chart means the hit has no effect. A target with the Toughness indicated cannot be harmed by a hit of such puny Strength.

neophryte
02-06-2008, 20:54
Thanks for replying!

That seems like a big and potentially nasty deal to me. I can just picture the use of small, cheap, expendable units charging into hopeless combats to shift enemy units out of position.

Well, the d6 consolidation will help that a bit - not to mention that those small cheap expendable units will have to get across the table. If someone wants to spam those, then the kill points games will basically mean they auto lose.

There is a pretty decent build in "comp" system overall.

Bloodknight
02-06-2008, 21:01
Do multiple barrages work like the plasma cannon example you gave us before or do these still form patterns as now (like a mortar squad, first marker hits, the other two later touch the first marker?).

lethlis
02-06-2008, 21:01
Friends and foes do not block line of sight, however if you are fireing thru friends/enemies then the unit you are firing at gets a 4+ cover save. However this is cancelled if it is at something like a vehicle or something where you could draw line of sight over the enemy.
All blasts no longer roll to hit and are now scattered 2d6-BS. Each blast is worked out individually. Tanks can fire one weapon on the move and all defensive however it is down to strength 4. Relentless is still in and they cans still fire 2 weapons as well as heavy on the move.

Every LOS is now directly related to model size. So if you can see the head, torso, legs or arms(not tails or wings or standard ect) then you can shoot them.

Power-fists, thunder-hammers and lightning claws now require the pair of them to get the +1 attack(looks like termies with shield thunder-hammer are alot better now huh) however everything else still gets +1 attack (Power weapons agonizer ect)

Passengers only drop out when the vehicle is destroyed and they take a pinning test instead of being auto pinned.

Overall I like every change in the rule book. It is pretty fair all around, eldar players quit yer bitching you are still really good just now you have options for your heavy support slots, take those dark reapers.

decker_cky
02-06-2008, 21:16
Don't have the rulebook on me, but I know this recently came up in the fantasy forums, and if you checked through the actual rules, you were still actually supposed to roll the to wound roll, then consult the chart for the effect. Most people just skipped that step. I'd be surprised if they worded that any differently in the 40k book.

Nurgling Chieftain
02-06-2008, 21:19
Rending is specifically allowed to wound any toughness value on a six.


Do multiple barrages work like the plasma cannon example you gave us before or do these still form patterns as now (like a mortar squad, first marker hits, the other two later touch the first marker?).Multiple barrages still form patterns, unlike multiple blasts from things like the plasma cannon dev squad.

Badger
02-06-2008, 21:28
thx,
i wondered allready, why no one from the rumours department mentionend the wraithlord-rending-immunity ...

greetings Badger

Badger
02-06-2008, 21:35
so, to get it in my head, do wraithlords get a 4+ coversave if they stand behind a unit of wraithguard?

normal infantry would get it, but as far as i understand the 5th rules monstrous c. and vehicles need to get 50%+ covered.

but if no unit blocks LOS , is he covered or not?

greetings Badger

Hortwerth
02-06-2008, 21:43
Could you please tell me how Ordnance Blasts scatter (I specifically want to know how Leman Russ Battle Tank will fire in 5th edition) - with regards to the moving/unmoving tank.

Also, does a night fighting affect the way Blasts, Ordnance Blasts, and Barrages scatter (any/all of them)?

Badger
02-06-2008, 22:00
i can answer that (it was mentioned befor):

there is no difference in moving or not, always 2d6(added)-bs if no hit-symbol comes up.

you cant shoot blast, ord. blast if you dont see the enemy during nightfight.

barrages add 1d6 in nightfight and dont substract(-) the bs if they dont have a LOS!


i have another one,
there is a debate about lash of tourment, "you cant lash pinned units" from your interpretation of the rules, can you "go to ground" to counter lash-movement?

(esp.can you "go to ground" without "rolls to wound"?)

Nurgling Chieftain
02-06-2008, 22:07
so, to get it in my head, do wraithlords get a 4+ coversave if they stand behind a unit of wraithguard?

normal infantry would get it, but as far as i understand the 5th rules monstrous c. and vehicles need to get 50%+ covered.

but if no unit blocks LOS , is he covered or not?
5th edition uses True LOS. (Whoever told you that units don't block LOS was...let's say "exaggerating".) A monstrous creature must have 50%+ of the model out of LOS to get a cover save. Wraithguard are tall enough to cover >50% of a Wraithlord, but they'd have to be packed in tight to actually pull the feat off.

jobi
02-06-2008, 22:09
Since Rending is now made on the to Wound roll, if you cannot Wound, you cannot roll, and so you cannot Rend.



This doesn't make sense. A rending hit always wounds on a 6 regardless of Toughness.

Also you could always roll to wound after you hit, even if you weren't strong enough to damage the model. I have never seen any rule stating otherwise. I mean nobody probably actually rolled the dice but that doesn't mean they weren't allowed to.

Iron Father
02-06-2008, 22:21
i think one of the best rules concerns ICs in retinues being part of the unit for combat, makes my grandmaster prettyy sweet, as a hidden strength 6 force weapon, though he can't kill things that are immune to instant death anymore

though the fact that u can no longer consolidate into another unit in close combat kills so many tactics and really helps my tau army


Now is this ONLy retinues or does it also count cahracters attached to a unit?

lethlis
02-06-2008, 22:23
actually when you cant hurt them you still make the roll just nothing happens normally so people tend to skip it. You can declare at anytime a unit is going to ground in the enemy shooting phase. It gives you a 6+ or plus one to cover save if you are in cover.

Leman russes fire the same as blast. auto hit 2d6 scatter - BS. Moving doesnt make a difference however they can only fire the ord same as before.

Nurgling Chieftain
02-06-2008, 22:24
Now is this ONLy retinues or does it also count cahracters attached to a unit?

Only retinues which a character can't leave. ...Oddly, they haven't printed one of those in quite some time, they're being phased out of the newer codicies.

Lokust
02-06-2008, 22:30
My LGS has a copy of the 5e book and I got the chance to read through it friday night. I'm curious about the folks who said that defenders must move 6" when charged. The wording in the book that I saw definitely made it sound optional, and several of us there actually discussed it to make sure we were reading it right. I don't have a photographic memory but the wording was along the lines of 'defender moves up to 6" to contact the enemy.' It seems to me that the 'up to' part allows a great deal of latitude... but our interpretation could be incorrect. If anything we all agreed that it was worded very poorly and ambiguously.

Oh, also due to typo, bright lances are no longer lance weapons, as in the big weapon description section they goofed on their color banding and stuck lance with the d-cannon instead of the bright lance. Obviously a mistake but I'm sure someone, somewhere will manage to make an ass of themselves about it.

zeqe
02-06-2008, 22:31
I think he's right actually.

Since Rending is now made on the to Wound roll, if you cannot Wound, you cannot roll, and so you cannot Rend.

EDIT* Oh, and maybe you're right on the charging thing. I can't be bothered to go across my room to look it up in the 4th ed book. If so, then I owe some people an apology, but nevermind eh? I doubt it made any difference.

There's actually a bit of a grey area on this one:

Since Genestealers can't normally wound a wraithlord with their attacks but if they roll a 6 they rend... What happens to wraithlords when they lose a close combat against a unit with 9 S4 models and 1 model armed with a powerfist? Normally the S4 models wouldn't be able to hurt the wraithlord, but there's one S8 model in the unit. They really need to start selling us these 5E rulebooks earlier, I hate driving all the way up to the bunker just to read a book.

Also in regards to bright lances no longer being lance weapons: Codex takes priority over the main rulebook unless stated otherwise. Page 68 of Codex: Eldar clearly lists bright lances as "Heavy 1, Lance"

Partisan Rimmo
02-06-2008, 22:35
Do multiple barrages work like the plasma cannon example you gave us before or do these still form patterns as now (like a mortar squad, first marker hits, the other two later touch the first marker?).

Actually it works pretty differently.

Unfortunatly, my copy of the rules is actually a bit damaged at this part, so the first step is missing, but I assume you scatter the first shot by 2D6-BS :p

Then, for each subsequent blast, roll a scatter dice. The new blast is placed adjacent to the old blast touching in the direction the arrow indicates. If a Hit is rolled, the new blast may be placed anywhere touching any of the blasts, including directly on top. Again, all hits are totalled up from each template before rolling to wound.



so, to get it in my head, do wraithlords get a 4+ coversave if they stand behind a unit of wraithguard?

normal infantry would get it, but as far as i understand the 5th rules monstrous c. and vehicles need to get 50%+ covered.

but if no unit blocks LOS , is he covered or not?

I have to say Nurgling Chieftain is wrong on this one. The 5th ed rules have entirely scrapped the concept of '50%'. In fact, it specifically says as long as any body part is partially covered. So yes, Wraithlords and MCs will get cover from being behind infantry.


Leman Russes will not scatter any less on the move, assuming they don't move so far as to prevent them firing in the first place.



Since Genestealers can't normally wound a wraithlord with their attacks but if they roll a 6 they rend... What happens to wraithlords when they lose a close combat against a unit with 9 S4 models and 1 model armed with a powerfist? Normally the S4 models wouldn't be able to hurt the wraithlord, but there's one S8 model in the unit. They really need to start selling us these 5E rulebooks earlier, I hate driving all the way up to the bunker just to read a book.

Also in regards to bright lances no longer being lance weapons: Codex takes priority over the main rulebook unless stated otherwise. Page 68 of Codex: Eldar clearly lists bright lances as "Heavy 1, Lance"

The rulebook specifically states that as long as one model can hurt the enemy, the enemy receives the full No Retreat damage if it loses.

Also, the rulebook also states that Bright Lances ARE lances. Not sure where you got this from.




i have another one,
there is a debate about lash of tourment, "you cant lash pinned units" from your interpretation of the rules, can you "go to ground" to counter lash-movement?

(esp.can you "go to ground" without "rolls to wound"?)

You can't, no. That's sort of the point of the differentiation. If you CHOOSE to go to ground, you are not pinned. You just act like you are.

Also, the decision to go to ground or not is made after rolling to wound but before armour saves.

Lord Raneus
02-06-2008, 23:24
Now that sucks. That means, i can't even bind Space Marines in Combat with my Gaunts, because they will probably kill twice the amount of Gaunts they used to in 4th edition.

You'll bind them; it'll be less effective. This is all.
I vastly prefer the Fantasy system and am glad to see it ported over. True, unbreakable units are worth more in Fantasy, but it's about time Leadership started actually mattering.

Nurgling Chieftain
02-06-2008, 23:25
I have to say Nurgling Chieftain is wrong on this one.Always a dangerous proposition. ;)


The 5th ed rules have entirely scrapped the concept of '50%'. In fact, it specifically says as long as any body part is partially covered. So yes, Wraithlords and MCs will get cover from being behind infantry.I suggest that you go read the section on Monstrous Creatures. IIRC, they don't work the same. BTW, vehicles also use the >50% rule, so the idea that 5th edition scrapped that altogether is definitely incorrect. It's just normal models which only need to be slightly obscured to get cover, since it's assumed that they squeeze into cover rather than being static models.


You can't, no. That's sort of the point of the differentiation. If you CHOOSE to go to ground, you are not pinned. You just act like you are.Go review pinning weapons again. There is no "pinned" state any more. You're just forced to go to ground if you fail the check.

That being said, I don't think you can choose to go to ground against the lash because the lash doesn't go through the normal shooting order. The Pavane, however, rolls to hit, so you might, I'll have to review the exact wording again before I can make a conclusion.

EDIT:
It seems to me that the 'up to' part allows a great deal of latitude...They have to try to reach B2B. The "up to" isn't a choice, it's just how far they can potentially move. Obviously, if they can reach B2B in just 1", that's fine.

studderigdave
03-06-2008, 01:39
does AP 1 and 2 ignore Feel No Pain?

Ravenous
03-06-2008, 01:40
does AP 1 and 2 ignore Feel No Pain?

Yes it most certianly does

Bloodknight
03-06-2008, 01:53
Big meh for my Plaguemarines (makes them also pretty vulnerable to snipers, especially Eldar snipers), big yay for my IG vs other people's PMs and Nurgle Daemons.

Drek
03-06-2008, 02:01
I do not see anything about FNP changing. It works the same as in 4th from what I see. So, only shooting weapons that are 2x Toughness or CC Weapons that ignore armor.

Rosicrucian
03-06-2008, 02:20
I do not see anything about FNP changing. It works the same as in 4th from what I see. So, only shooting weapons that are 2x Toughness or CC Weapons that ignore armor.

Last line of the FNP USR is "Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons, and any other wounds against which no armor save can ever be taken..."

stompzilla
03-06-2008, 03:18
You'll bind them; it'll be less effective. This is all.
I vastly prefer the Fantasy system and am glad to see it ported over. True, unbreakable units are worth more in Fantasy, but it's about time Leadership started actually mattering.

Try playing with an army that's not marines and you'll see just how much LD actually does matter.

Nurgling Chieftain
03-06-2008, 03:24
The Autarch-on-jetbike-with-reaper-launcher move-and-fire works in 5th edition. (Worked in 4th, too...)

Antonius.Prime
03-06-2008, 05:18
Well folks, I don't know if it's been said elsewhere yet, but it's up for pre-order on the UK and US GW sites...

Ordered me the Gamers Edition. Yummy.

Decius
03-06-2008, 07:33
Only retinues which a character can't leave. ...Oddly, they haven't printed one of those in quite some time, they're being phased out of the newer codicies.

It is going to matter for Imperial Guard command squads. Currently, an Lt. or Cpt. is too easy to kill because they can be singled out. In 5th Ed, they can't be targeted specifically. Hurray!

I just hope they don't phase out retinues in the next guard codex...

nathonicus
03-06-2008, 07:49
My LGS has a copy of the 5e book and I got the chance to read through it friday night. I'm curious about the folks who said that defenders must move 6" when charged. The wording in the book that I saw definitely made it sound optional, and several of us there actually discussed it to make sure we were reading it right. I don't have a photographic memory but the wording was along the lines of 'defender moves up to 6" to contact the enemy.' It seems to me that the 'up to' part allows a great deal of latitude... but our interpretation could be incorrect. If anything we all agreed that it was worded very poorly and ambiguously.


Think of it this way, it does not say that they "may move" it says that they move. The "up to" part just clarifies that the maximum value for the movement.

KingNova3000
03-06-2008, 08:12
Another tricky issue is that you can no longer walk, run or charge over the base of a friendly model. So it is a little more tricky but very interesting.

Have a read of your 4th ed book.....

Souleater
03-06-2008, 08:18
How does twin-linking work with blast weapons? e.g. twin-linked Deathspitters?

lethlis
03-06-2008, 09:51
You can re-roll all the dice

torgoch
03-06-2008, 10:07
How do combats with multiple units work. Given people are so worried about the loss of consolidating into another unit, I’m surprised this hasn’t been asked.

To be precise.

i) Can you shoot a different unit to which you assault? A slightly odd one, but I saw reference to blowing up a vehicle then charging the passengers, which would imply a rule change from 4th.

ii) Can you assault multiple units? If so, what are the rules for doing so?

iii) How is multiple unit combat resolved? Does a unit take his for the wounds it receives, or the total wounds combat was lost overall by. For example, my 30 hormagaunts are in combat with a guard squad and a ogryn squad. They cause 7 wounds on the scouts and 4 on the ogryns, and taking 3 wounds in return. Who takes morale checks and at what penalties?

Mad Larkin UK
03-06-2008, 10:49
It is going to matter for Imperial Guard command squads. Currently, an Lt. or Cpt. is too easy to kill because they can be singled out. In 5th Ed, they can't be targeted specifically. Hurray!

I just hope they don't phase out retinues in the next guard codex...

Not True, in the current Guard codex with the 5th edition rules, they can be attacked if in B2B contact with the enemy.The only way they can get attacks back too.

shabbadoo
03-06-2008, 11:05
The force weapon is a psychic power now..... yeah for Tzeentchian sorcerors!:D


It is in 4th ed.

I think they are implying that there is a fundamental difference in how the force weapon is being treated as a psychic power in 5e. In 4e, force weapon instant death is more of a psychic ability than a psychic power. In 4e, you can’t use another psychic power in the same turn as you use a force weapon to cause instant death(as per the force weapon rules) even if the user has rules that say they can- the use of the force weapon drains your ability to use other powers. As a psychic power in 5e, force weapons can be used multiple times in a turn if the user can use more than one psychic power in a turn. Yes, you can end up being able to instant kill more than one multiple wound model in close combat using a force weapon in 5e. That is a *very* important difference in the rules.

That is my understanding of what has been implied about the change in how force weapon function in 5e as compared to 4e. Maybe I’ve missed an FAQ somewhere along the way where the 4e rules for force weapons were altered to be exactly as I have just described though, but I don't think so.

Partisan Rimmo
03-06-2008, 11:24
It is going to matter for Imperial Guard command squads. Currently, an Lt. or Cpt. is too easy to kill because they can be singled out. In 5th Ed, they can't be targeted specifically. Hurray!

I just hope they don't phase out retinues in the next guard codex...

Actually this is a really important issue. Do Guard Command squads count as Retinues? I'm not sure they do. I hope they do.



Think of it this way, it does not say that they "may move" it says that they move. The "up to" part just clarifies that the maximum value for the movement.

It says 'Must' move. 'Must' means it's not optional, so yeah, you're right.





I suggest that you go read the section on Monstrous Creatures. IIRC, they don't work the same. BTW, vehicles also use the >50% rule, so the idea that 5th edition scrapped that altogether is definitely incorrect. It's just normal models which only need to be slightly obscured to get cover, since it's assumed that they squeeze into cover rather than being static models.

Hah! I've just noticed that the section on Monstrous Creatures seems to be entirely missing from my copy of the rules for some reason :p
In that case, I take your word for it that you were right all along.

And on further reading, you are right about Pinning too.




How do combats with multiple units work. Given people are so worried about the loss of consolidating into another unit, I’m surprised this hasn’t been asked.

To be precise.

i) Can you shoot a different unit to which you assault? A slightly odd one, but I saw reference to blowing up a vehicle then charging the passengers, which would imply a rule change from 4th.

ii) Can you assault multiple units? If so, what are the rules for doing so?

iii) How is multiple unit combat resolved? Does a unit take his for the wounds it receives, or the total wounds combat was lost overall by. For example, my 30 hormagaunts are in combat with a guard squad and a ogryn squad. They cause 7 wounds on the scouts and 4 on the ogryns, and taking 3 wounds in return. Who takes morale checks and at what penaltie

i) A unit that blew up a tank CAN assault its occupants, but this is the only exception. Other than that, Charging what you Shoot is still firmly in place.

ii) You can. The models in the charging unit must move to get as many of their models in base to base contact with the target unit as possible, as normal. However, if in doing this they end up in base to base contact with models from another squad, that squad has been charged too, and will also move 6" into the assault too.

iii) For working out morale in multi unit combats, work out the total wounds each side has inflicted. Then, work out which side lost overall, and what the penalty for this will be. Then test leadership (or No Retreat) for every unit on the losing side with the same penalty. That is a bit harsh for multiple fearless units in combat, but nevermind.



How does twin-linking work with blast weapons? e.g. twin-linked Deathspitters?

You reroll to wound rolls.

IJW
03-06-2008, 11:28
Hah! I've just noticed that the section on Monstrous Creatures seems to be entirely missing from my copy of the rules for some reason :p
So what are you actually reading? :confused:

x-esiv-4c
03-06-2008, 11:58
Anything new about "swarms"?

BaronDG
03-06-2008, 13:54
So what are you actually reading? :confused:

Makes me wonder as well...

Partisan Rimmo
03-06-2008, 14:02
So what are you actually reading? :confused:

Turns out, it isn't missing, I was just looking in the wrong place. Gah!:rolleyes:

I'm reading a set of scans of the preview book that was sent out to GW stores.

MCs can't Go to Ground either I notice, and don't automatically get the benefit of Area Terrain. That's a notable penalty.

TaintedSpam
03-06-2008, 14:10
Retinues are units that an IC is purchased with and cannot leave. An IG command squad is one example. The officer cannot leave it and thus counts as an "uprgade character" for the unit. When the unit dies, he regains IC status. I can start looking at taking an expensive IG command squad just for fun.

Bloodknight
03-06-2008, 15:22
Good that I ripped off all powerfists on my officers with 4th edition because they could be picked out *gah*...

Lorieth
03-06-2008, 16:47
Snipers have lost the 2+ to hit, but are now S3 against vehicles. Combined with Rending, this gives a possible Penetration 12, so light tank hunting is on the cards.


Isn't sniper armour pen 2D6 in 4th? I'm pretty sure this is how the Eldar Ranger rifle works anyway. If so then S3+rending doesn't make much difference. I make it same chance to hurt AV10, but 2/3 of hits penetrate vs 1/2 in 4th -- however the change to damage tables means this is less serious for the vehicle. You do have twice the chance to hurt AV12, but the odds are still slim (1/18) and now you can't destroy it on a glance.



i) Can you shoot a different unit to which you assault? A slightly odd one, but I saw reference to blowing up a vehicle then charging the passengers, which would imply a rule change from 4th.

On a similar theme, if I destroy a target unit (not just vehicle) with shooting, can I assault someone else or do I still have to sit there staring in amazement.

dwnhmcntryboy
03-06-2008, 18:39
Have a read of your 4th ed book.....

I did read my book.

dwnhmcntryboy
03-06-2008, 18:52
You have to "counter-charge".

That's not right... Generally where it's correct, it's not different from 4th edition, and where it's different from 4th edition it's not correct.



I have the book in hand and that is exactly the description they give in the diogram under the charge rules in the pictures. They tell you the rules in the charge rules. Then they show you exactly what they mean in the following pictures.

Fable
03-06-2008, 21:05
Still haven't gotten this answered yet...

Are there still Strategy Ratings in 5th? If so, what do they even do?

.H.
03-06-2008, 22:14
No, Strategy Ratings are gone, which makes sense because they were so silly. I think they just rolled a D3 to come up with them in the first place.

I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but Poison Weapons now must re-roll to wound if your Strength is equal to or greater than their Toughness. Typhus just became even more ridiculously powerful.

Nurgling Chieftain
04-06-2008, 00:27
You do have twice the chance to hurt AV12, but the odds are still slim (1/18) and now you can't destroy it on a glance.You can if you're Eldar - AP1 is good that way. :evilgrin:

imweasel
04-06-2008, 00:57
Last line of the FNP USR is "Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons, and any other wounds against which no armor save can ever be taken..."

If this is true, then plague marines cannot get FNP vs AP3 weapons either...

pwrgmrguard
04-06-2008, 01:00
but 2+ armor saves can be taken against ap 3 weapons...they get FNP against str7 AP3,

imweasel
04-06-2008, 01:12
but 2+ armor saves can be taken against ap 3 weapons...they get FNP against str7 AP3,

Then why not simply state that you cannot get a FNP roll if you don't get an armor save...

Silly brits.

Edit: And how does this affect units that have no armor save to begin with?!?!?

The_Outsider
04-06-2008, 01:15
Then why not simply state that you cannot get a FNP roll if you don't get an armor save...

Silly brits.

I read that last bit more as a clause to cover themselves against anything they haven't considered, not meaning to say "ap3 ignore fnp" more of "anything else that may deny armour, like a turbosquig also ignores fnp".

Bloodknight
04-06-2008, 01:20
If this is true, then plague marines cannot get FNP vs AP3 weapons either..

They do. The "no armour save ever" part refers to power weapons etc. in the paragraph, ie. weapons that always ignore armour.

Stezerok
04-06-2008, 01:28
If this is true, then plague marines cannot get FNP vs AP3 weapons either...

I don't think this is the case, though I can definitely understand what you're saying. The inclusion of AP 1 and AP 2 suggests that those two are unique, otherwise they would have just said that any time a weapons AP beats the armor value... or something to that effect.

Likewise if you were to counter what I'm saying by pointing to the "wounds against which no armor save can ever be taken" I would say that the "can ever be taken" might be GW's way of suggesting that since there are armor saves that can be saved against AP 3 it doesn't affect FNP, that it can only be canceled by attacks that always will negate armor...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

imweasel
04-06-2008, 01:39
They do. The "no armour save ever" part refers to power weapons etc. in the paragraph, ie. weapons that always ignore armour.

I am sorry, but all AP3 weapons always ignore my armor saves.

Once again, poor wording on a brand new book.

neophryte
04-06-2008, 01:51
Why don't we wait til we actually see the book in more detail before pronouncing the wording poor.

imweasel
04-06-2008, 02:07
Why don't we wait til we actually see the book in more detail before pronouncing the wording poor.

Because, unless people are talking out of their hat, they are quoting the rulebook.

Battle-Brother Wags
04-06-2008, 02:11
A couple of points. Sorry if I'm reiterating what anyone else wrote, but there are a billion of these threads and its not realistic to read every one.

Anyway. I was able to spend some time with the rulebook at my FGS after work today.

I noticed -

1. There is nothing in the description of "Run" that says vehicles can't do it. It says "units" in the description of how it goes. It starts out by talking generically about "warriors", but in the actual rule description it only states "units" may do this and "units" may do that. Interesting. You'd have a hard time convincing a diehard "my tank can 'run'" fan that the guys driving the vehicle aren't just as much "warriors" as the guys on foot.

2. Enclosed buildings using bunker-like rules are very interesting. I like it, especially because if you don't want the hassle, you don't have to field any enclosed buildings in your game and just have impassable terrain instead. I like the flexibility there to have as little or as much playability and depth as you desire.

3. LOS is still kinda screwy. Granted, I only had about half an hour to 45 minutes with the book and LOS isn't the only thing I looked at and my brain was already fried from a long day at work, so I need to get back and read it in more depth sometime soon. One thing I noticed about shooting through area terrain at models that are clearly visible on the other side is this: Just because they are on the other side doesn't mean they get a save, if I remember correctly. They have a picture with a marine in the area terrain (within the border) who gets a save. They have a marine on the other side of the area terrain that is clearly visible but the LOS would travel between two trees. This means the marine would get a cover save. The third marine was on the other side of the area terrain, but there was only a tree to the left of him and so he was not "bracketted" by area terrain features, therefore he did not get a save. I found this to be very interesting.

4. From the TLOS perspective, it seems that if any part of the main body (head, torso, arms, or legs), then the model is counted as obscure. But if you you see the whole model OVER any obstructions, then it isn't obscure. Add in the fact that there is no sizes and this is what you get: My wraithlord stands a few inches behind a low wall that comes up to about his knees. LOS from a lascannon toting marine is taken and the wraithlord is counted as obscured because a portion of the 'lord's main body is covered. The wraithlord gets a cover save. The wraithlord then gets his turn to shoot back and from his perspective, can easily see the entirety of the lascannon marine, the low wall not being in the way whatsoever and the poor marine has no cover save. This seems a pretty powerful advantage for the likes of such a tall model as a wraithlord.

5. Could someone who had more time than me and more brain power energy please explain how you determine if a unit gets a cover save based on the number of models that are obscured? There was a good diagram of marines shooting at orcs with 3 examples, the last of which being that since the players couldn't decide one way or another, the orcs got a 5+ cover save instead of a 4+. I think anyone who looked at the rules in any depth should recognize which scenario I'm talking about. I can't recall now the ramifications or requirements needed to see if over half of the unit is obscured or not. Its a weird mixture of if half the unit being shot at is in cover or if more than half the unit doing the shooting can actually draw a clear LOS to at least half the models in the target unit or some such . . . anyway, I could use some help clarifying that one.

6. I general I felt the book much easier to read and find the parts I wanted to. It didn't seem nearly as haphazard as our current rulebook. It felt cleaner and more reasonably fashioned. I didn't look at the fluff at all because I wanted to focus on the rules because I knew I didn't have forever to loaf about, as well as the fact that there were no good lounge chairs handy.

Upon first sight, my conclusion is that i am very excited to play 5th edition. Some aspects of the game will change mightily, but I think overall it will be a better experience. I won't even bother trying ot play 5th edition, however, until I have read the book cover to cover and have one available for reference during the games, so I'll still be waiting until July 12th for my first experiences. Hope my above points were enlightening, though. And again, my apologies if they were just repeats.

Ianos
04-06-2008, 02:23
If they haven't included the rest of ap's and yet they mention ap1,2 it is clear that the intention is for only ap1,2 to actually penetrate as much as needed to ignore FNP. Hopefully the 5th FAQ will totally clear this up.

Nurgling Chieftain
04-06-2008, 03:01
The third marine was on the other side of the area terrain, but there was only a tree to the left of him and so he was not "bracketted" by area terrain features, therefore he did not get a save. I found this to be very interesting.I find it to be very annoying, especially since we use green felt with separately based trees for our forests, and tend to move the actual trees around a lot.


4. From the TLOS perspective, it seems that if any part of the main body (head, torso, arms, or legs), then the model is counted as obscure.Generally speaking, yes, but monstrous creatures and vehicles must be at least 50% covered.


Add in the fact that there is no sizes and this is what you get: My wraithlord stands a few inches behind a low wall that comes up to about his knees. LOS from a lascannon toting marine is taken and the wraithlord is counted as obscured because a portion of the 'lord's main body is covered. The wraithlord gets a cover save. The wraithlord then gets his turn to shoot back and from his perspective, can easily see the entirety of the lascannon marine, the low wall not being in the way whatsoever and the poor marine has no cover save.This doesn't work for wraithlords because they are monstrous creatures; the wall has to cover at least 50% of the model. Still, under similar circumstances, I'm going to have to call the rule realistic. If I'm crouched right behind a wall and you're out in the open, I can see you clearly and you can't see me except where I'm sighting down my rifle. ;) That's just how LOS is! There was a similar rule in 4th edition: cover-granting terrain which you were in or touching didn't give cover saves to models behind that cover (it still gave cover saves to models in it). Different (and, in practice, simpler) rule, same basic effect.


5. Could someone who had more time than me and more brain power energy please explain how you determine if a unit gets a cover save based on the number of models that are obscured?Sure. Let's say there's 5 space marines firing at 9 orks. If there was no cover at all, each of 5 space marines could see 9 orks, for 45(!) total clear lines of sight. Now, count the number of clear shots each space marine has, and them all together, and compare it to half of 45. If there are 23 clear shots, the orks do not get cover, if there are 22 or fewer clear shots, the orks do get cover (I don't remember whether you round up or down at exactly half so I chose an odd number ;) ).

Note specifically that models in the target unit which can't be seen at all count towards being in cover! ...This is only fair given that they can be killed in the new rules!

Most of the time this is easily established by counting how many orks are in or behind cover, and figuring that the space marines all have about the same LOS. However, if you've got 20 chaos marines firing at a mob of 30 orks, I can definitely see why you might want to just drop the cover save by one rather than counting up 600(!) possible lines of sight!


It felt cleaner and more reasonably fashioned.Yeah, a lot of wording DID get cleaned up and some long outstanding issues were specifically answered, thankfully.

Battle-Brother Wags
04-06-2008, 03:30
Generally speaking, yes, but monstrous creatures and vehicles must be at least 50% covered.

I didn't read the monstrous creature entry and I'm assuming that is where this ruling could be found because I didn't see it in the LOS discussion. If that is true, though, it clears some stuff up. But it still means that wraithlords get cover saves in any kind of area terrain even if they stick out like sore thumb.


Sure. Let's say there's 5 space marines firing at 9 orks. If there was no cover at all, each of 5 space marines could see 9 orks, for 45(!) total clear lines of sight. Now, count the number of clear shots each space marine has, and them all together, and compare it to half of 45. If there are 23 clear shots, the orks do not get cover, if there are 22 or fewer clear shots, the orks do get cover (I don't remember whether you round up or down at exactly half so I chose an odd number ;) ).
Um, I'm hoping there is an easier way, because if there is not, I'm just going to point anyone who says the game will go fast to your above paragraph.

Thanks for all the clarifications, however.

Nurgling Chieftain
04-06-2008, 04:07
I didn't read the monstrous creature entry and I'm assuming that is where this ruling could be found because I didn't see it in the LOS discussion.Yes. Ironically I went through this exact discusion with the OP earlier in this same thread. :cool:


But it still means that wraithlords get cover saves in any kind of area terrain even if they stick out like sore thumb.IIRC, their 50% restriction overrides even the normal "blanket" area terrain rule.


Um, I'm hoping there is an easier way, because if there is not, I'm just going to point anyone who says the game will go fast to your above paragraph.Heheh, yeah, I'm firmly of the opinion that 5th edition is an inherently slower game than 4th, although the ability to remove any model rather than just models in LOS makes things a bit quicker on that end. But like I said, most of the time, you can just look to see if most of the defenders are in cover, and then you'll know.

imweasel
04-06-2008, 05:49
If they haven't included the rest of ap's and yet they mention ap1,2 it is clear that the intention is for only ap1,2 to actually penetrate as much as needed to ignore FNP. Hopefully the 5th FAQ will totally clear this up.

I also hope that the 5th ed faq will clear it up. I would have been happy if they said ap1 and ap2 weapons ignored fnp, but then they had to add that little line at the end.

Sons of Russ
04-06-2008, 06:03
does close combat block line of sight?

Stezerok
04-06-2008, 06:10
does close combat block line of sight?

yes

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Natura
04-06-2008, 06:13
Because, unless people are talking out of their hat, they are quoting the rulebook.

It's not poorly written through. AP1 and AP2 weapons always ignore armour because the best save you can possibly have is 2+. AP3 weapons do not always ignore armour because you can have a 2+ save. Just because a weapon can penetrate the armour on the unit it's being shot at does not include it in the written category.

neophryte
04-06-2008, 06:15
Because, unless people are talking out of their hat, they are quoting the rulebook.

Quoting from reading the rulebook - really more of paraphrasing. for instance, I can tell you that Monstrous Creatures can fire two weapons but that is (probably) a paraphrase and not a direct quote. Intent is right, but not 100% word for word.

In this case you were nitpicking wording.

neophryte
04-06-2008, 06:19
Um, I'm hoping there is an easier way, because if there is not, I'm just going to point anyone who says the game will go fast to your above paragraph.

Thanks for all the clarifications, however.

Yeah, easier way is use your tape measure to create a straight line and bisect touching the edge of the terrain to simulate eyesight- it is super easy to eyeball 90% of the time doing that.

edit: yes I am too dumb to grok how the heck to use that multiquote thing.

Pyriel
04-06-2008, 06:33
some questions:
a)Prefered enemy:is it a reroll as rumoured or kept the same(hit on 3)?black templars, so it interests me...
b)from what people can tell(wording etc.), is character & retinue(not joined unit, retinue) 2 killpoints or 1?
c)so and they shall know no fear is out of the picture in main book?confirmed?
d)vehicle damage chart?any news?is it as rumoured?
e)missions?are they as rumoured?

Penitent Engine
04-06-2008, 06:34
DO blast weapons need to roll to hit, or do you just place the template as per current ordnance, then scatter 2D6-BS?

If you're trying to get LoS, use a $2 laser pointer.
And don't get sucked in by GW's expensive version!

BTW, a bit of a rant: the Gamer's and Limited edition rulebooks are 80 pounds in the UK. At the current exchange rate this should be around $120 AU. GW is charging $200 AU. As a warning to all Aussies out there-DON'T BUY IT FROM THE AUS ONLINE STORE!!!

Natura
04-06-2008, 06:40
DO blast weapons need to roll to hit, or do you just place the template as per current ordnance, then scatter 2D6-BS?

If you're trying to get LoS, use a $2 laser pointer.
And don't get sucked in by GW's expensive version!

BTW, a bit of a rant: the Gamer's and Limited edition rulebooks are 80 pounds in the UK. At the current exchange rate this should be around $120 AU. GW is charging $200 AU. As a warning to all Aussies out there-DON'T BUY IT FROM THE AUS ONLINE STORE!!!

Wait, with the exchange rate between the US dollar and the aussie dollar being what is it, are there ANY australians out there actually using GW Australia's online store? Seriously?

neophryte
04-06-2008, 06:44
some questions:
a)Prefered enemy:is it a reroll as rumoured or kept the same(hit on 3)?black templars, so it interests me...
b)from what people can tell(wording etc.), is character & retinue(not joined unit, retinue) 2 killpoints or 1?
c)so and they shall know no fear is out of the picture in main book?confirmed?
d)vehicle damage chart?any news?is it as rumoured?
e)missions?are they as rumoured?

a) reroll, I too am templars - nice that our most exp vow now works on our characters..
b) not sure, I will try to remember to check tomorrow at my LGS
c) confirmed out of the book
d) as rumored - single chart (less than)1-6(or more)
e) dunno which rumor you saw - basically 3 missions, annihilation, recon, and uhhh one more, take and hold style maybe and 3 different deployment types. Yes annihilation is kill points, everything is worth 1 kill point.

Ordnance and blast weapons place then scatter

Morticon
04-06-2008, 06:47
If they haven't included the rest of ap's and yet they mention ap1,2 it is clear that the intention is for only ap1,2 to actually penetrate as much as needed to ignore FNP. Hopefully the 5th FAQ will totally clear this up.

Thats not true mate.
The difference is that AP1,AP2 always ignore any armour save.

AP3 only ignores armour of models with 3+ save or worse.

In this case Mephiston would get a FNP against a reaper launcher, but a DC marine would not.

AllisterCaine
04-06-2008, 07:07
Thats not true mate.
The difference is that AP1,AP2 always ignore any armour save.

AP3 only ignores armour of models with 3+ save or worse.

In this case Mephiston would get a FNP against a reaper launcher, but a DC marine would not.

No...thats not what it means either. Having read the 5th ed book, it says FNP cannot be taken by AP1 or AP2 weapons or anything that ALWAYS ignore saves (which includes power weapons). You still get your FNP even if you dont get your armor save as long as it is NOT a weapon that ALWAYS ignore saves (which includes Ap1, 2, power weapons, other special rules). Marines with 3+ with fnp will get their fnp save even if the weapon is Ap3.

Morticon
04-06-2008, 07:22
valid point on the "always" part. My DC are happy with that interpretation. Hope everyone else will be

Occulto
04-06-2008, 07:53
I also hope that the 5th ed faq will clear it up. I would have been happy if they said ap1 and ap2 weapons ignored fnp, but then they had to add that little line at the end.

Well if the bit at the end wasn't there, I'm reading that Monstrous Creature attacks or the C'tan Phase Sword wouldn't negate FNP.

zeqe
04-06-2008, 08:39
No...thats not what it means either. Having read the 5th ed book, it says FNP cannot be taken by AP1 or AP2 weapons or anything that ALWAYS ignore saves (which includes power weapons). You still get your FNP even if you dont get your armor save as long as it is NOT a weapon that ALWAYS ignore saves (which includes Ap1, 2, power weapons, other special rules). Marines with 3+ with fnp will get their fnp save even if the weapon is Ap3.

The problem with this point of view is that a RAW lawyer will just tell you that a missile launcher (krak) will ALWAYS ignore a death company marines armor save. Round and round we go, when it gets FAQ'd? Nobody knows.

Additionally, what about rending weapons? They don't ALWAYS ignore armor saves, they only do it when they roll a 6...

Yamagon
04-06-2008, 08:50
questions, not sure if answered:

a) can swarms (of... mabye... nurglings) capture objectives?
b) what are the deepstrike fatality table or what ever... is it as rumoured?
c)can you give me your copy of the rules via mail?????? (PLEASE, ill be good, i promise, ill praise ur name from the rooftops!)
d)do they mention things about retenues, like they did in 4th, even though they were phasing them out?
e) NO MORE STRAGETIC RATING? does that mean the autarch's pointless rule got more pointless?

also... random point about the posting process, spell checks dont work on my computer, so excuse it... also... how do i fix that?

tehgeist
04-06-2008, 09:02
questions, not sure if answered:

a) can swarms (of... mabye... nurglings) capture objectives?
b) what are the deepstrike fatality table or what ever... is it as rumoured?
c)can you give me your copy of the rules via mail?????? (PLEASE, ill be good, i promise, ill praise ur name from the rooftops!)
d)do they mention things about retenues, like they did in 4th, even though they were phasing them out?
e) NO MORE STRAGETIC RATING? does that mean the autarch's pointless rule got more pointless?

also... random point about the posting process, spell checks dont work on my computer, so excuse it... also... how do i fix that?

a) no, they can not
b) I think it is something like 1-2 = unit destroyed, 3-4 = unit is deployed by your opponent, 5-6 = unit gets hold back in reserve, new chance in the next turn
c) Ehm...that is kind of illegal here
d) Do not know much about that, only that you can attach IC to a unit before the game starts
e) don't know, but I think strategic rating is still in, in some kind. Eldar codex was written with 5ed in mind

bye

Natura
04-06-2008, 09:17
The problem with this point of view is that a RAW lawyer will just tell you that a missile launcher (krak) will ALWAYS ignore a death company marines armor save. Round and round we go, when it gets FAQ'd? Nobody knows.

Additionally, what about rending weapons? They don't ALWAYS ignore armor saves, they only do it when they roll a 6...

No, no. A rules lawyer, even a fanatical RAW one, still has no leg to stand on: an AP3 weapon does not fall into the catagory of "wounds against which no armour save can ever be taken". It doesn't matter what you're firing it at; if you can cite a scenario where an armour save can be taken against the wound, it doesn't negate FNP.

EDIT: The book specifically cites rending weapons that roll 6 as negating FNP

AllisterCaine
04-06-2008, 09:24
The problem with this point of view is that a RAW lawyer will just tell you that a missile launcher (krak) will ALWAYS ignore a death company marines armor save. Round and round we go, when it gets FAQ'd? Nobody knows.

Additionally, what about rending weapons? They don't ALWAYS ignore armor saves, they only do it when they roll a 6...

You have a valid point, but the rule, as stated in the book, says armor saves in general. Not armor saves of specific units. Rending does always ignore armor on a 6 to wound, so it does count. Ap3 doesnt always ignore armor, doesnt count. It doesnt matter if you have a 6+ or a 3+ armor save, as long as the weapon doesnt AUTOMATICALLY ignore your save whether it be all the time or once in a while, you still get FNP.

shin'keiro
04-06-2008, 09:50
MUST the defender move, or is it optional?

yes they MUST

Partisan Rimmo
04-06-2008, 11:18
I didn't read the monstrous creature entry and I'm assuming that is where this ruling could be found because I didn't see it in the LOS discussion. If that is true, though, it clears some stuff up. But it still means that wraithlords get cover saves in any kind of area terrain even if they stick out like sore thumb.

If the Monstrous Creature does not have half its body covered by the terrain, it does not get a cover save. This is an exception to the 'if any part is covered you get the save' rule. This INCLUDES being inside area terran. So Wraithlords' height will work against them on this one.




Um, I'm hoping there is an easier way, because if there is not, I'm just going to point anyone who says the game will go fast to your above paragraph.

Thanks for all the clarifications, however.

Simple method is:

Are the majority of models in cover from the majority of shooters?

If so, cover save, if not, not. It should always be obvious. The complicated method is just how to work it out precisely if its in question.




I also hope that the 5th ed faq will clear it up. I would have been happy if they said ap1 and ap2 weapons ignored fnp, but then they had to add that little line at the end.

I think the use of the word 'ever' is clear enough. Weapons that do not 'ever' give armour saves and weapons that do not give armour saves in this instant are two very different things. Think of Dangerous Terrain, Perils of the Warp, Mind War, etc. etc. etc...



questions, not sure if answered:

a) can swarms (of... mabye... nurglings) capture objectives?
b) what are the deepstrike fatality table or what ever... is it as rumoured?
c)can you give me your copy of the rules via mail?????? (PLEASE, ill be good, i promise, ill praise ur name from the rooftops!)
d)do they mention things about retenues, like they did in 4th, even though they were phasing them out?
e) NO MORE STRAGETIC RATING? does that mean the autarch's pointless rule got more pointless?

also... random point about the posting process, spell checks dont work on my computer, so excuse it... also... how do i fix that?

I'll answer the ones that haven't already been answered.

d) They count as two. Specifically said.
e) No more Strategic Rating. I doubt anyone will miss them.

As for the spellchecker, are you using the Firefox browser? You need to be for a spellchecker. Download Firefox, then search for 'Add-ons' and you should find an english dictionary pretty quick




1. There is nothing in the description of "Run" that says vehicles can't do it. It says "units" in the description of how it goes. It starts out by talking generically about "warriors", but in the actual rule description it only states "units" may do this and "units" may do that. Interesting. You'd have a hard time convincing a diehard "my tank can 'run'" fan that the guys driving the vehicle aren't just as much "warriors" as the guys on foot.

I had to look for a bit, but I found it. Under the description of Walker movement, it states that Walkers can run UNLIKE other vehicles. So there is official wording against that. It's just not in a very useful place...

Lorieth
04-06-2008, 12:15
Thanks for all the information so far. Please could someone confirm whether or not Rending still auto-wounds on a 6? I.e. can low strength rending weapons (e.g. harlequin kiss) still wound high toughness units (e.g. Wraithlord)?

Vovin
04-06-2008, 12:15
@ Partisan Rimmo:
Thanks a lot for this batch of information. :)

Another question:
How is the escalation-like deployment type going to work?
Is this right: You can deploy one HQ and two troops up to 24" away from your long table edge and 24" away from the enemy? And the reserves have to walk all the way from the long edge, i.e. are useless?

Battle-Brother Wags
04-06-2008, 12:32
I had to look for a bit, but I found it. Under the description of Walker movement, it states that Walkers can run UNLIKE other vehicles. So there is official wording against that. It's just not in a very useful place...

*Sigh*

Ok, item number one on the 'what the!?" list. I was really hoping this type of thing wouldn't be in the new rulebook. I completely agree with you that that ruling completely clears it up, but its in a backward way. All they needed to do was in the Vehicle Category under the Shooting phase have a single sentence that stated, "Vehicles (excluding walkers) may not Run." But instead they decide to leave the obvious and most clear way out and do it in a negative denial way: "Yeah, walkers can run even when other vehicles can't, even though we have in no other place actually stated that vehicles can't, but we're hoping that from this related rule you will then get the idea that overall vehicles cannot run, though we admit it would have been smarter to say it up front, but guess what, the books on the way to the printers and all we can do is smack our forehead and go 'doh!' Anyway, you get the idea, so play and house rule anything you want to in order to make up for our rulewriting deficiency, ok? Thanks a ton. And oh, buy lots of our stuff; we need the money."

*sigh*

Hopefully such instances will be the exception rather than the rule in this edition. Here's hoping.

Partisan Rimmo
04-06-2008, 13:58
@ Partisan Rimmo:
Thanks a lot for this batch of information. :)

Another question:
How is the escalation-like deployment type going to work?
Is this right: You can deploy one HQ and two troops up to 24" away from your long table edge and 24" away from the enemy? And the reserves have to walk all the way from the long edge, i.e. are useless?

Having read through the missions, they're quite different.

There are 3 possible objectives, and 3 possible deployment formations. Which objective and which deployment formation you use is randomly generated, giving 9 basic setups.

In 2 out of the 3 Deployment types, everything sets up, but in the third, you only set up 1 HQ and 2 Troops. However, deployment zones in this third case are asymmetric. The first player to deploy can put his models anywhere in his half of the table. The other player deploys in the opposite half, but has to stay 18" away from his enemy. Reserves do come in from the Long edges, but with Run, I don't think that's such a handicap.

More interestingly, the whole First Turn and Deployment method has been totally shaken up, though people don't seem to have realised. Now, both players roll off to deploy as normal. Whoever goes first chooses their board edge and deploys ALL their forces. Their opponent then gets the other board edge and deploys all of their forces. The person who deployed first however gets the first game turn. However, the person who has deployed second can choose to 'Seize the Initiative' just before the game begins, whereupon on a roll of a 6 on a dice THEY get the first turn instead.

Now THAT is going to take some getting used to.

Also, non scoring enemy units can still contest objectives I notice, though they can't hold them.



Thanks for all the information so far. Please could someone confirm whether or not Rending still auto-wounds on a 6? I.e. can low strength rending weapons (e.g. harlequin kiss) still wound high toughness units (e.g. Wraithlord)?

Rending still autowounds on a roll of a 6 to wound, and counts as AP2 when it does. Therefore, extra tough creatures can still be hurt by it.

Thoth62
04-06-2008, 15:35
Additionally, what about rending weapons? They don't ALWAYS ignore armor saves, they only do it when they roll a 6...

Rending, in close combat at least, fall under the catchall of close combat attacks that don't allow an armour save. I would assume that the added phrase in the rules is there to cover examples not given in the preceding list. It's likely that rending wounds from ranged weapons, for example, would fall into that category.

neophryte
04-06-2008, 16:19
In 2 out of the 3 Deployment types, everything sets up, but in the third, you only set up 1 HQ and 2 Troops.

More interestingly, the whole First Turn and Deployment method has been totally shaken up, though people don't seem to have realised. Now, both players roll off to deploy as normal. Whoever goes first chooses their board edge and deploys ALL their forces.

Just a bit of addendum to these 2 subtle but awesome changes. The first one, it is UP TO so you could, theoretically, just walk everything on if there was some reason you wanted to do that. I think that the second player may choose that option more often.

Also, i believe that the roll off is no longer a choice. Whoever rolls higher has to choose their side and deploy first - it is a minor thing, but speeds the game up. I have played against people who spend what feels like 5 minutes weighing the pros and cons of going first or not. This way, they roll higher, they choose and deploy. Done deal.

shin'keiro
04-06-2008, 17:44
More interestingly, the whole First Turn and Deployment method has been totally shaken up, though people don't seem to have realised. Now, both players roll off to deploy as normal. Whoever goes first chooses their board edge and deploys ALL their forces. Their opponent then gets the other board edge and deploys all of their forces. The person who deployed first however gets the first game turn. However, the person who has deployed second can choose to 'Seize the Initiative' just before the game begins, whereupon on a roll of a 6 on a dice THEY get the first turn instead.


Did you miss out that games now end on turn 5.. with a possible turn 6 and 7 on the roll of a d6:cool:

x-esiv-4c
04-06-2008, 19:23
Whats the "Swarm" USR? Vulnerable to blasts and can't take objectives?

LokkoRex
04-06-2008, 19:31
sorry for a (propably very) stupid question, but just so i know, what type of vehicles can move and shoot in 5th edition?(i'm quite pissed the IG:s tanks are turning into pillboxes) i already know Land Raiders are an exception to this(damn sm that pay all of gw bills and payments)

Stezerok
04-06-2008, 19:47
Whats the "Swarm" USR? Vulnerable to blasts and can't take objectives?

yep pretty much


sorry for a (propably very) stupid question, but just so i know, what type of vehicles can move and shoot in 5th edition?(i'm quite pissed the IG:s tanks are turning into pillboxes) i already know Land Raiders are an exception to this(damn sm that pay all of gw bills and payments)

not stupid at all, the rules for tanks is as follows:

Vehicles can move:
0" fire all guns
1-6" fire one main and all defensive (str 4-)
7-12" none

Fast Vehicles can move:
0-6" fire all guns
7-12" fire one main and all defensive (str 4-)
13-18" none

Fast Skimmers are the same as Fast vehicles but they can move 13-24" and fire none of their weapons instead...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Partisan Rimmo
04-06-2008, 20:26
And bear in mind that Ordinance no longer scatters extra when fired on the move. And since you can still only fire Ordinance and nothing else, rolling thunder Leman Russes is actually better than before.

Exterminators on the other hand, now THERE we have a pillbox.

Radish
04-06-2008, 20:30
Thansk for all the answers that have been provided so far! :D

I got a couple more;
1) whats the roll for additional turns now? 4+? I think I saw that somewhere
2) do units that have a rule saying they are never scoring, like Zoanthropes, still contest objectives?
3) do monstrous creatures and walkers get any bonuses in close combat with resolution? such they used to count as 10models but now thats not in...

thanks and sorry if these have been answered, so many threads with questions, its easy to miss some!

Evil-Termite
04-06-2008, 20:55
Are walkers counted any different than regular vehicles for moving and shooting? IIRC, in 4th ed walkers can shoot two main weapons and still move 6" so I'm wondering if that has changed.

IJW
04-06-2008, 20:59
Walker firing hasn't changed from 4th ed.

Bloodknight
04-06-2008, 21:04
Actually it did. Walkers always shoot like stationary vehicles, so can shoot all weapons, even if they move (actually it is better than before, IIRC in 4th you can shoot only 2 weapons. Might be interesting for Deffdreads if they can get more than two guns).

Stezerok
04-06-2008, 21:10
1) whats the roll for additional turns now? 4+? I think I saw that somewhere

3+ for a turn 6, and 4+ for a turn 7, both rolls if I'm not mistaken are made at the same time...


2) do units that have a rule saying they are never scoring, like Zoanthropes, still contest objectives?

there's nothing written on it that I know of, but I'm sure there will be an FAQ to talk about it or something...


3) do monstrous creatures and walkers get any bonuses in close combat with resolution? such they used to count as 10models but now thats not in...


I didn't read anything about that... Combat resolution is no longer affected by the number of models in the unit, so I'm not sure if there is anything for Monstrous Creatures...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Partisan Rimmo
04-06-2008, 21:18
Thansk for all the answers that have been provided so far! :D

I got a couple more;
1) whats the roll for additional turns now? 4+? I think I saw that somewhere
2) do units that have a rule saying they are never scoring, like Zoanthropes, still contest objectives?
3) do monstrous creatures and walkers get any bonuses in close combat with resolution? such they used to count as 10models but now thats not in...

thanks and sorry if these have been answered, so many threads with questions, its easy to miss some!

1) Turn 6 occurs on a 3+, turn 7 in a 4+

2) A unit can contest an objective whether scoring or not, so Zoanthropes could contest

3) The concept of counting for 10 models would no longer be of any use, since all outnumbering modifiers have been entirely replaced by modifiers caused by who won combat by the larger margin. As a result, the Walker or MC's resolution will be determined purely by how much it kills.



Are walkers counted any different than regular vehicles for moving and shooting? IIRC, in 4th ed walkers can shoot two main weapons and still move 6" so I'm wondering if that has changed.

Walkers can move and fire all weapons, unlike other vehicles.

Radish
04-06-2008, 21:21
Thanks for the answers!

So there's no roll for a turn 8? :O
I was kinda hoping montrous creatures and walkers would get something like +1 to combat resolution due to their bulk *continues day dreaming*

Krootman
04-06-2008, 21:45
Just read the entire rule book at my local gamestore so heres what I saw thats a big change, if most of this is old news im sorry


1)All blast and ordance weps scatter (2d6 - users bs)

2) for skimmers to get that 4+ cover save they have to move at the fastest movement settings (they classify movement into 3 settings based on how far u move) which means they cant fire ANY weapons

3) after you wipe out a unit in assault you cant sweep into another squad at all, so now the big thing will be winning combats in your opponents turn.

4) vps are gone missions are all about objectives. (I checked this section 4 times just to be sure

5) when selecting a mission you roll a d3 and get a type then another d3 to determine how you deploy.

6) tank wrecks are now dangerous terrain Sad

7) the allocating wounds, when I reread it i found out you only allocate wounds if every model is not the same, example if you had a unit of just 30 ork boys you would allocate after failed saves, its only if you have different weps or unit leaders that makes it different.

Cool Independent characters
---1) can be picked out
---2)with out getting specific they work in combat the same pretty mcuh
---3) they dont give their units fearless anymore though they can join a unit and it will auto rally

9)no modifiers for ld from shooting

10) in combat your ld gets modified by how many wounds you lose by. For example cron player loses combat by 5 hes taking his break test at 5 Very Happy

11) catching opponents is the same as before

12) rending is to wound on 6

13) intact buildings have armor values and can be poped and work just like transports that cant move, and have fire points and access points that you and your opponent agree on before the game ( I like this) armor value based off chart

14) rules for different floors like city fight

15) close combat weps are divided into normal special and special b (cant think of the last name) you get +1 attack for 2 normal and a normal and a special, but if you take 2 special (2 p weps for example) you don't get +1 attack and the only way you can get +1 attack for special B is if you have 2 of them

16) ramming is pretty sweet will hurt both armies, dreads can death or golory for ramming and if they fail ram counts as hitting rear armor (i dont feel like getting into specifics but its pretty cool

If theres anything i didnt adress ask me and ill answer it or just go read it urself its there.

Overall I must say Im really digging 5th and the direction its going in, I think true los will work and im sure tornys will streamline sone of the rules like agreing to terrian types before hand, they will prob assign values them selfs.

Imo 5th is a nice inbetween from 4th and 2nd.

SwordJon
04-06-2008, 21:53
I'll have to make one comment about #11: catching opponents is ALMOST similar, but there is no longer the requirement for you to be in Base to Base contact with your defeated foe in order to run them down.

Krootman
04-06-2008, 22:10
I'll have to make one comment about #11: catching opponents is ALMOST similar, but there is no longer the requirement for you to be in Base to Base contact with your defeated foe in order to run them down.

yea I forgot about that, im still letting everything sink into my head. I spend almost 3 and a half hrs sitting on a floor reading the book lol

Lucifer216
04-06-2008, 22:51
One thing about the whole FNP thing. Theorectically its perfectly possible for there to be a 1+ armour save in 40K, unless there's a specific list of all the possible armour saves. Such armour would still save against AP2 weaponry but would still fail a save on a 1.

Famder
04-06-2008, 22:58
No army has the possibility of a 1+ save in 40k, there are no armor combinations that allow this. Even when orks had Bionik Bonce it couldn't be combined with Mega Armor for a 1+ save.

Bloodknight
04-06-2008, 23:00
It specifically says that armour saves cannot be better than 2+ in the book.

Stezerok
04-06-2008, 23:57
15) close combat weps are divided into normal special and special b (cant think of the last name) you get +1 attack for 2 normal and a normal and a special, but if you take 2 special (2 p weps for example) you don't get +1 attack and the only way you can get +1 attack for special B is if you have 2 of them


This as I read it is is almost correct... You can take two special weapons, and so long as they are single handed cc weapons you can gain +1 attack from having them (2 power weapons), but if ever they are not the same then you must choose which you are using for that turn, and you still gain the +1 to attack. Only the "special B" weapons that you are talking about (ie. lightning claws, power fists, etc...) are ruled where they must be the same type of weapon in both hands to gain a +1 attack.

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Krootman
05-06-2008, 02:05
This as I read it is is almost correct... You can take two special weapons, and so long as they are single handed cc weapons you can gain +1 attack from having them (2 power weapons), but if ever they are not the same then you must choose which you are using for that turn, and you still gain the +1 to attack. Only the "special B" weapons that you are talking about (ie. lightning claws, power fists, etc...) are ruled where they must be the same type of weapon in both hands to gain a +1 attack.

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Well I was thinking this would apply to nids as well if you had 2 special weapons. But you are correct you would get +1 attack for 2 power weps, though thankfully no one would ever do that lol

Something else I forgot to post and thats the pen table

The chart is (i think this is correct)
1)shaken
2) stunned
3) weapon destroyed
4) immobilized
5) destroyed
6) destroyed models inside take a str4 hit no wreck

glancing hit = -2 to the table
ap1= +1 to the table
open toped = +1 to the table

I think thats all the modifiers, again I only read it once so I might not be 100% but im pretty close.

TheRockit
05-06-2008, 02:14
Well I was thinking this would apply to nids as well if you had 2 special weapons. But you are correct you would get +1 attack for 2 power weps, though thankfully no one would ever do that lol

The Nids have Close Combat Biomorphs, not special weapons, and the Codex specifically says that they may use ALL of them in an assault and are not limited to using just one like most other models. (Nids Codex Pg.31)

Krootman
05-06-2008, 02:45
The Nids have Close Combat Biomorphs, not special weapons, and the Codex specifically says that they may use ALL of them in an assault and are not limited to using just one like most other models. (Nids Codex Pg.31)

Yea but in reguards to getting +1 attack for 2 cc weps, but if they dont even count as weps then its a non issue.

Azzy
05-06-2008, 02:52
1. There is nothing in the description of "Run" that says vehicles can't do it. It says "units" in the description of how it goes. It starts out by talking generically about "warriors", but in the actual rule description it only states "units" may do this and "units" may do that. Interesting. You'd have a hard time convincing a diehard "my tank can 'run'" fan that the guys driving the vehicle aren't just as much "warriors" as the guys on foot.


I had to look for a bit, but I found it. Under the description of Walker movement, it states that Walkers can run UNLIKE other vehicles. So there is official wording against that. It's just not in a very useful place...


Ok, item number one on the 'what the!?" list. I was really hoping this type of thing wouldn't be in the new rulebook. I completely agree with you that that ruling completely clears it up, but its in a backward way. All they needed to do was in the Vehicle Category under the Shooting phase have a single sentence that stated, "Vehicles (excluding walkers) may not Run."

If the rulebook is setup the same as the leaked PDF, it states "(of course, vehicles cannot run)" at the end of the second paragraph of the "Moving and Shooting Vehicle Weaponry" subsection.

Bloodknight
05-06-2008, 03:09
glancing hit = -2 to the table
ap1= +1 to the table
open toped = +1 to the table

AP- weapons also get a -1, so a glancing hit with an AP- weapon gets a -3 and can at best destroy a weapon.

Aeneas
05-06-2008, 03:56
Is there any benefit to giving Fury of Khorne (rending) to power weapon armed bloodletters?

Ravenous
05-06-2008, 04:21
One rule I thought was interesting was "take the initiative".

After the set up, the person who set up second can try and 'take the initiative' and if he rolls a 6 then the he gets to go first.

Seems sort of silly, but oh well.

Natura
05-06-2008, 05:00
If the rulebook is setup the same as the leaked PDF, it states "(of course, vehicles cannot run)" at the end of the second paragraph of the "Moving and Shooting Vehicle Weaponry" subsection.

And the 5th ed book is the same. "Moving and Shooting Vehicle Weaponry", 2nd paragraph, last line: "Note that vehicles cannot run"

cailus
05-06-2008, 05:20
One rule I thought was interesting was "take the initiative".

After the set up, the person who set up second can try and 'take the initiative' and if he rolls a 6 then the he gets to go first.

Seems sort of silly, but oh well.

I actually like that rule. Means that every now and then your game plan can be totally thrown out the window.

I think we need more crazy random stuff in the game.

Splata
05-06-2008, 05:31
[quote]7) the allocating wounds, when I reread it i found out you only allocate wounds if every model is not the same, example if you had a unit of just 30 ork boys you would allocate after failed saves, its only if you have different weps or unit leaders that makes it different.
[/qoute]

Is this correct?
And if so does it follow this example.

I have 5 SM's
3 w/bolters
1 w/ML
1 w/Melta

and i take 6 hits then i role
1 die for the ML
1 die for the Melta
4 die for the bolters and assign failed saves.

This is different to the interpretation gained from the pdf.
And it helps multiple high AP weapons immensly because if 2 of those shots were AP 2 shots you would have:

1 die for the ML
1 die for the Melta
2 AP 2 shots assigned to the bolters.
2 dice for the bolters and assign failed saves.

Once again, is this correct?

Stezerok
05-06-2008, 05:59
Is there any benefit to giving Fury of Khorne (rending) to power weapon armed bloodletters?

well it's not that great, but Rending has the nack of being able to auto-wound whatever a 6 is rolled against. So you go from have a power weapon that can kill MEq's, to having a power weapon that can possibly wound T8+ models as well...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

cailus
05-06-2008, 06:25
1)All blast and ordance weps scatter (2d6 - users bs)

Interesting in that it's both a bonus (potential scatter can be 0 inches after subtracting BS) or a negative (potential maximum scatter is now 8 inches for BS4, 9 inches for BS3 and 10 inches for BS2). Bad for Orks!



2) for skimmers to get that 4+ cover save they have to move at the fastest movement settings (they classify movement into 3 settings based on how far u move) which means they cant fire ANY weapons

Not bad at all.



3) after you wipe out a unit in assault you cant sweep into another squad at all, so now the big thing will be winning combats in your opponents turn.

This'll make life interesting for assault armies. I'd say it's one of the biggest changes to the game. At least it gives shooting armies a bit more of a chance.


4) vps are gone missions are all about objectives. (I checked this section 4 times just to be sure.

Meh, I play 90% of my games as Alpha level missions and write my own missions so this one only affects those that only chose to play by the book.


5) when selecting a mission you roll a d3 and get a type then another d3 to determine how you deploy.

Much more interesting than the current system! I like it.


6) tank wrecks are now dangerous terrain Sad

Makes sense as they are piles of smouldering twisted metal. I'd actually make them impassable terrain. I've read about tanks being destroyed and still being hot too touch 2 hours after they were fried. It's also not too easy walking over something that is just mangled steel either. There's also unexploded ordnance, fires etc that could make the vehicle dangerous to hang around



7) the allocating wounds, when I reread it i found out you only allocate wounds if every model is not the same, example if you had a unit of just 30 ork boys you would allocate after failed saves, its only if you have different weps or unit leaders that makes it different.

This rule doesn't bother me though I think Torrent of Fire was a much more elegant solution. Oh well.




Cool Independent characters
---1) can be picked out
---2)with out getting specific they work in combat the same pretty mcuh
---3) they dont give their units fearless anymore though they can join a unit and it will auto rally.

So 1.) and 2.) indicate no real change though number 3 points to an added ability. I like it, especially cause my Warboss used to run away a lot.


9)no modifiers for ld from shooting

One more nail in the coffin for psychology.


10) in combat your ld gets modified by how many wounds you lose by. For example cron player loses combat by 5 hes taking his break test at 5 Very Happy

So about the only place where psychology matters is close combat?



11) catching opponents is the same as before

Good.


12) rending is to wound on 6

Excellent. Rending needed to be toned down.


13) intact buildings have armor values and can be poped and work just like transports that cant move, and have fire points and access points that you and your opponent agree on before the game ( I like this) armor value based off chart

Don't like it as it can be used to gain free movement. Luckily I don't really use intact buildings bar some shanties.



14) rules for different floors like city fight

Good.


15) close combat weps are divided into normal special and special b (cant think of the last name) you get +1 attack for 2 normal and a normal and a special, but if you take 2 special (2 p weps for example) you don't get +1 attack and the only way you can get +1 attack for special B is if you have 2 of them

So a bolt pistol and a power sword give an extra attack but two power swords do not and yet two powerfists give you an extra attack? Bizarre and too convoluted.




16) ramming is pretty sweet will hurt both armies, dreads can death or golory for ramming and if they fail ram counts as hitting rear armor (i dont feel like getting into specifics but its pretty cool

Cool.



Overall I must say Im really digging 5th and the direction its going in, I think true los will work and im sure tornys will streamline sone of the rules like agreing to terrian types before hand, they will prob assign values them selfs.

Imo 5th is a nice inbetween from 4th and 2nd.

I'm not as opposed to 5th as I once was but I still don't think 4th edition was that bad that it needed replacing..

Occulto
05-06-2008, 06:38
So a bolt pistol and a power sword give an extra attack but two power swords do not and yet two powerfists give you an extra attack? Bizarre and too convoluted.

Why would you give a model 2 power weapons?

neophryte
05-06-2008, 06:45
That bit about power weapons isn't correct. It lists which special weapons need to be doubled up and power weapons are not on it.

cailus
05-06-2008, 06:47
Why would you give a model 2 power weapons?

Modelling opportunities perhaps? It would of course make more sense to simply get a CCW and model it that way.

I personally don't understand the dual powerfists giving you a bonus attack either because other than Marneus Calgar you can't really give your models dual powerfists in the newer codices and I'm not sure whether you can do so in any of the older ones.

big squig
05-06-2008, 07:01
I agree. I think this whole powerfist thing is a stupid idea. They needed a nerf, but this is not the way to do it. It goes against every rule, model, and fluff.

I would of made it so a model can only use one of their attacks with a PF, and the rest would have to be a different weapon or just standard attacks. One double str power weapon att isn't going to unbalance things and would still be useful. Models with relentless could still fight with full PF attacks though.

But hey, I'm not JJ.

neophryte
05-06-2008, 07:11
Well, everyone has the option between power weapon and power fist right now. How often do you see a power weapon? Next to never. This makes it a choice - do you want the extra attack of the extra strength? Choice is good.

cailus
05-06-2008, 07:47
Well, everyone has the option between power weapon and power fist right now. How often do you see a power weapon? Next to never. This makes it a choice - do you want the extra attack of the extra strength? Choice is good.

It doesn't really make it a choice. I'd still rather 2 S8 attacks than 3 S4 attacks. Thse 2 S8 attacks still shred IC's, slam down Marines, can take out tanks and help put down MC's. Power Weapons on the other hand are only really good against lower Toughness troops and on IC's who have good Initiative.

And for my Orks the Powerklaw is still the only real choice (the stupid Uge Choppa doesn't give you an additional attack either or ignore armour the way a klaw does).

All this rule does is make powerfists a bit less efficient.

By the way you used to have a lot more choice once upon a time with your Marine sergeants - Lightning Claws, Chainfists and Thunderhammers and Stormshields. And in 2nd edition you had Chainswords, Power Axes, Power Mauls, Power Swords, hand flamers etc all with different effects.

Now you will have three choices - plasma pistol, power weapon and power fist.

Choice is good but not in GW land.

neophryte
05-06-2008, 07:52
Well, we could go back to rogue trader where you rolled for the equipment of every single model...

Natura
05-06-2008, 07:58
Well, everyone has the option between power weapon and power fist right now. How often do you see a power weapon? Next to never. This makes it a choice - do you want the extra attack of the extra strength? Choice is good.

Everyone does NOT have the option. The only power weapon option Orks have access to is the burna, and Nobs can't take them, meaning that the leaders of most mobs have a choice between the Big Choppa and Power Klaw. Big Choppas are pathetically useless except on a bike-mounted warboss who plans to just hunt walkers. I bloody WISH we had access to both across the board, but we don't.

neophryte
05-06-2008, 08:13
Fair enough - in context I was referring to imperial troops who have access to one typically have access to the others. Though to be fair, nobs with power klaws are pretty rock hard.

IJW
05-06-2008, 08:52
Interesting in that it's both a bonus (potential scatter can be 0 inches after subtracting BS) or a negative (potential maximum scatter is now 8 inches for BS4, 9 inches for BS3 and 10 inches for BS2). Bad for Orks!

Orks still have exactly the same chance of hitting, plus a chance of the scatter not going far. The only downside is the risk when shooting at something close to your own troops, which fluff-wise they wouldn't care about anyway. :)


So 1.) and 2.) indicate no real change though number 3 points to an added ability. I like it, especially cause my Warboss used to run away a lot.
1) is ICs being picked out by shooting if they are not in a unit. Quite a big change, actually...


One more nail in the coffin for psychology.

It doesn't make that much difference, the only modifiers for shooting Morale was -1 for under half strength, and -1 for ordnance barrage.


So a bolt pistol and a power sword give an extra attack but two power swords do not and yet two powerfists give you an extra attack? Bizarre and too convoluted.
As has been said many times, this is just Powerfists/klaws, Thunder Hammers and Lightning Claws. No effect on Power Weapons.

Lorieth
05-06-2008, 10:23
One thing about the whole FNP thing. Theorectically its perfectly possible for there to be a 1+ armour save in 40K, unless there's a specific list of all the possible armour saves. Such armour would still save against AP2 weaponry but would still fail a save on a 1.

Which is probably why they explicitly state AP2 ignores FNP.


Interesting in that it's both a bonus (potential scatter can be 0 inches after subtracting BS) or a negative (potential maximum scatter is now 8 inches for BS4, 9 inches for BS3 and 10 inches for BS2). Bad for Orks!


Orks still have exactly the same chance of hitting, plus a chance of the scatter not going far. The only downside is the risk when shooting at something close to your own troops, which fluff-wise they wouldn't care about anyway. :)


Exactly, you can now scatter 0" so their chance to hit just got better!


Don't like it as it can be used to gain free movement. Luckily I don't really use intact buildings bar some shanties.


Yes but not very much for most units. If you shoot you have to assault the unit you shot at, and if you don't shoot you could run for D6" anyway so you're not gaining all that much. Units with Fleet will gain movement here, but then it won't happen much and they probably deserve something after everyone else got Run...

Krootman
05-06-2008, 13:12
Everyone does NOT have the option. The only power weapon option Orks have access to is the burna, and Nobs can't take them, meaning that the leaders of most mobs have a choice between the Big Choppa and Power Klaw. Big Choppas are pathetically useless except on a bike-mounted warboss who plans to just hunt walkers. I bloody WISH we had access to both across the board, but we don't.

nobs still get 4 attacks on the charge.....I dont think you should by crying about the p fist nerf. I plan to max out on p claws as they are right now.

Hidden fist was the name of the game in 4th ed combat they wanted to make people have to think hard about the weps that a marine player picks....(Keep in mind im a torny player who maxes out fists here) I like the nerf, it means less people will take them (I still plan on maxing them). Ever think 15 points was a bit underprices for 4 str 8 attacks.

Fenryll
05-06-2008, 13:13
3 little question (sorry fo my bad english) :

1) I think i have read that if you have a whirlwind beside a forest area , you now can shoot it and tha whirlwind will have a 4+ save.

2) If the wind fire in this case , if he can see the enemy between the area forest, i could make a direct fire (2d6-BS)

3) If i cannot see the enemy it was an indirect fire (2d6 arggggggh)

Is it correct?
Thanks

kore
05-06-2008, 14:00
7) the allocating wounds, when I reread it i found out you only allocate wounds if every model is not the same, example if you had a unit of just 30 ork boys you would allocate after failed saves, its only if you have different weps or unit leaders that makes it different.
[/qoute]

Is this correct?
And if so does it follow this example.

I have 5 SM's
3 w/bolters
1 w/ML
1 w/Melta

and i take 6 hits then i role
1 die for the ML
1 die for the Melta
4 die for the bolters and assign failed saves.

This is different to the interpretation gained from the pdf.
And it helps multiple high AP weapons immensly because if 2 of those shots were AP 2 shots you would have:

1 die for the ML
1 die for the Melta
2 AP 2 shots assigned to the bolters.
2 dice for the bolters and assign failed saves.

Once again, is this correct?

If this is the case, didn't they just make the rules more cumbersome? I thought they were streamlining.

Stezerok
05-06-2008, 14:05
3 little question (sorry fo my bad english) :

1) I think i have read that if you have a whirlwind beside a forest area , you now can shoot it and tha whirlwind will have a 4+ save.

2) If the wind fire in this case , if he can see the enemy between the area forest, i could make a direct fire (2d6-BS)

3) If i cannot see the enemy it was an indirect fire (2d6 arggggggh)

Is it correct?
Thanks

1) if your opponent is shooting through the forest area terrain at your Whirwind, then yes, it does gain a 4+ save

2) Yes if the Whirwind fires at an enemy it has LoS to, then it uses the 2d6-bs

3) and yes if the whirwind fires at an enemy not in line of sight then it uses just 2d6

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Krootman
05-06-2008, 14:52
[QUOTE=Splata;2672767]

If this is the case, didn't they just make the rules more cumbersome? I thought they were streamlining.

The pdf is wrong, if you had 6 wounds and 5 troopers (1 ml and 1 vet) you would put one on each trooper until everyone has 1 hit on them and then you would put the 6th hit where ever you want (on another bolter im assuming, unless you want to kill ur ml lol

Fletch
05-06-2008, 16:29
With the new Blast marker rules in which you don't roll a traditional 'to hit' roll anymore how are those weapons impacted by twin-linking?

Example being a Wave Serpent with TL-EMLs? How would the shot be resolved if they were firing Plasma. I would assume if they fire Krak they would make a traditional 'to hit' roll and reroll if the first result was a miss.

***I did look in 5th ed rules threads beforehand for the answers but unfortuanately the threads are becoming very bulky.

neophryte
05-06-2008, 16:43
1) if your opponent is shooting through the forest area terrain at your Whirwind, then yes, it does gain a 4+ save

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

But not necessarily. Vehicles have to have 50% blocked and I believe it is true LOS. There are tons of diagrams to help out, but just slapping a vehicle behind a forest may not be enough - you may have to find a hill or a ruin. But yeah, overall you will be firing direct more often and will have a 4+ cover save rather than being completely out of LOS.

Bloodknight
05-06-2008, 16:58
@Fletch: you reroll all dice - the one with the arrows and the 2d6. You cannot reroll single dice there, it's all or nothing.

vlorlich
05-06-2008, 22:43
Question about Charges...

In the Assault Phase I declare what units will be charging which units. I want to make sure I am clear on this. Do I measure to see if the enemy unit is 6 inches or less from my charging units first before anything else... or does the opposing player need to declare what units are counter charging?

Oh and if you declare your charging... even if you fail to reach an enemy unit do you still get to move?

Ravenous
05-06-2008, 22:48
Question about Charges...

In the Assault Phase I declare what units will be charging which units. I want to make sure I am clear on this. Do I measure to see if the enemy unit is 6 inches or less from my charging units first before anything else... or does the opposing player need to declare what units are counter charging?

Oh and if you declare your charging... even if you fail to reach an enemy unit do you still get to move?

The "counter charge" is automatic after you make contact, and you have to move all your assaults in at the same time.

Nurgling Chieftain
05-06-2008, 23:33
Is there any benefit to giving Fury of Khorne (rending) to power weapon armed bloodletters?
well it's not that great, but Rending has the nack of being able to auto-wound whatever a 6 is rolled against. So you go from have a power weapon that can kill MEq's, to having a power weapon that can possibly wound T8+ models as well...
More to the point, on a 6 to penetrate rending gives you +d3. This can often make a difference between your squad being unable to harm a dreadnought to having a fighting chance!

Flo
05-06-2008, 23:49
Question for AP- weapons vs AV:

I know they are -1 on the vehicle chart, but are they also auto-glance still? Or has that second part been erased from 5th ed?

-Flo

Gensuke626
05-06-2008, 23:56
As has been said many times, this is just Powerfists/klaws, Thunder Hammers and Lightning Claws. No effect on Power Weapons.

Sort of. I was looking over the copy my FLGS has and it says that if you have 2 different special weapons you don't get an extra attack...

So if you have a Power sword and a Rending claw you don't get it...that sort of thing.

But models with 2 forms of special attack are exceedingly rare.

Stezerok
05-06-2008, 23:58
Question for AP- weapons vs AV:

I know they are -1 on the vehicle chart, but are they also auto-glance still? Or has that second part been erased from 5th ed?

-Flo

no auto-glance, just -1...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Natura
06-06-2008, 00:49
nobs still get 4 attacks on the charge.....I dont think you should by crying about the p fist nerf. I plan to max out on p claws as they are right now.

Hidden fist was the name of the game in 4th ed combat they wanted to make people have to think hard about the weps that a marine player picks....(Keep in mind im a torny player who maxes out fists here) I like the nerf, it means less people will take them (I still plan on maxing them). Ever think 15 points was a bit underprices for 4 str 8 attacks.

I'm not crying about the p-fist nerf; it barely affects orks because our power klaw armed models have plenty of attacks already. The cost increase also never affected us; we've been paying 25 points for 9 years and nothing's changed. I just object to people constantly making sweeping generalizations like "Leadership means nothing", "everyone can take Power weapons or power fists" or "Power fists are undercosted" when all they're referring to is MEQ.

neophryte
06-06-2008, 01:03
"everyone can take Power weapons or power fists" or when all they're referring to is MEQ.

Actually, I think the conversation was specifically about MEQs so it should be expected that people will say everyone in referring to them. FWIW IG can also get powerfists and power weapons same with various inquisitors.

TheRockit
06-06-2008, 01:17
With the new Blast marker rules in which you don't roll a traditional 'to hit' roll anymore how are those weapons impacted by twin-linking?

Example being a Wave Serpent with TL-EMLs? How would the shot be resolved if they were firing Plasma. I would assume if they fire Krak they would make a traditional 'to hit' roll and reroll if the first result was a miss.

***I did look in 5th ed rules threads beforehand for the answers but unfortuanately the threads are becoming very bulky.


@Fletch: you reroll all dice - the one with the arrows and the 2d6. You cannot reroll single dice there, it's all or nothing.

Actually I believe you reroll the 'to wound' dice on Twin-Linked Blast weapons, NOT the scatter or hit die.

Radish
06-06-2008, 01:27
Nope its reroll scatter and the 2d6 or nothing. Only twin-linked template weapons reroll to wound ;)

TheRockit
06-06-2008, 01:35
Nope its reroll scatter and the 2d6 or nothing. Only twin-linked template weapons reroll to wound ;)

There is a distinction between Blast & Template for scatter purposes, other than the Flamer Template which doesn't scatter anyway?

I was thinking that anything which used a template (other than flamers) of any size fell under the same scatter & twin-linked rules... i.e. re-roll wounds only.

Please clarify!

Elios Harg
06-06-2008, 01:48
Sort of. I was looking over the copy my FLGS has and it says that if you have 2 different special weapons you don't get an extra attack...

So if you have a Power sword and a Rending claw you don't get it...that sort of thing.

But models with 2 forms of special attack are exceedingly rare.

If the model has 3 close combat weapons how are they effected?

For instance, BA Chaplains can have a Powerfist, Bolt Pistol and Crozius, so could he use the crozius w/ the bolt pistol still?

Radish
06-06-2008, 01:58
Was just going when I saw your plea for help TheRockit ;)

All blast templates (large and small) will scatter 2d6-BS, and a reroll will mean rerolling both the scatter d6 and 2d6 or neither of them.

All template weapons (regardless of what it is, flamers, inferno cannons, warlock destructors powers etc) never scatter. If they are twin-linked, they may reroll failed to wound rolls instead as the weapon always hits its target.

Hope I've answered it for ya!

EDIT: just for further clarification, whilst 'blast' markers are templates, they are never referred to as such in the rules, 'template' only refers to the flamer cone one, if the rules are making reference to the blast it will say so. I'm not sure if thats where your getting confused?

@Ellios Harg: Yes to your question. A model can attack with any of its weapons in close combat (so terminators can decide NOT to use their fists if they wanted to!) but in the new book there are more limitations on bonus attacks with weapons. A CCW/pistol with power weapon will gain an attack, whilst a power weapon and power fist won't. However they could use either one of the weapons to attack (never both). The three especially special weapons (thunder hammers, pfists and lightning claws) never gain a bonus attack from any other weapon, other than the same one again.

Gensuke626
06-06-2008, 02:47
If the model has 3 close combat weapons how are they effected?

For instance, BA Chaplains can have a Powerfist, Bolt Pistol and Crozius, so could he use the crozius w/ the bolt pistol still?

I'd have to look it up. Just as a "If this was posed to me mid-game and I had to make a snap decision about it" sort of ruling, I, as a player, would say that since you have a "Basic CCW" (The Pistol) you can pair it with either special weapon to get the extra attack.

I'll get back later with a RAW answer.

Krootman
06-06-2008, 02:53
I'd have to look it up. Just as a "If this was posed to me mid-game and I had to make a snap decision about it" sort of ruling, I, as a player, would say that since you have a "Basic CCW" (The Pistol) you can pair it with either special weapon to get the extra attack.

I'll get back later with a RAW answer.

No you would only get the extra attack if your armed with a pistol and corzue + you can even arm a character like that.

Krootman
06-06-2008, 02:56
I'm not crying about the p-fist nerf; it barely affects orks because our power klaw armed models have plenty of attacks already. The cost increase also never affected us; we've been paying 25 points for 9 years and nothing's changed. I just object to people constantly making sweeping generalizations like "Leadership means nothing", "everyone can take Power weapons or power fists" or "Power fists are undercosted" when all they're referring to is MEQ.

Marines,chaos, guard, daemonhunters, and orks are the only ones who have a power fist and considering everyone but orks had cheep powerfists im pretty sure im ok with making that generalization...

Gensuke626
06-06-2008, 03:00
Marines,chaos, guard, daemonhunters, and orks are the only ones who have a power fist and considering everyone but orks had cheep powerfists im pretty sure im ok with making that generalization...

Shall we ignore the Striking Scorpion Exarch "Scorpion Claw"? I'm fairly certain that the Nerf hits them harder than anyone else.


No you would only get the extra attack if your armed with a pistol and corzue + you can even arm a character like that.

This sentence doesn't make alot of sence. Learn 2 Grammar kthxbye.

But assuming you mean that you can't arm a character like that, then you're wrong. I just looked it up and BA Chappies can have A crozius, a PF, and a Bolt pistol.

That being said, I made an error in typing and what I meant to say was that you could get an extra attack if you used the Crozius and the Pistol, as Stezerok points out below.

Stezerok
06-06-2008, 03:05
No you would only get the extra attack if your armed with a pistol and corzue + you can even arm a character like that.

this is true, as you can only get an extra attack for PF's if you have two. As for the Chaplain, assuming you can arm him in such a way, you would choose at the beginning of the turn whether you wanted him to use his PF (in which he has his base number of attacks) or his Crozius and Pistol (in which he gains +1 attack).

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

torgoch
06-06-2008, 08:17
Okay, here's another new one to get away from all this powerfist/damage chart repetition.

When a charger charges two units, in what order are the pile in moves done? Is it on a unit by unit basis, or does the person recieving the charge just move models as he wishes? Potentially quite significant.

Radish
06-06-2008, 12:27
I'd assume they'd be done on a unit-by-unit basis else it could make a real mess.

Everyone who has seen the book has stated that it is full of examples and diagrams, so it would likely be clear after seeing it.

Another Q, does the meltabomb count as Ap1 for the +1 on the chart like a meltagun would get :angel: it always bugged me when I got a glacing hit with a meltabomb...

Lorieth
06-06-2008, 14:13
Sort of. I was looking over the copy my FLGS has and it says that if you have 2 different special weapons you don't get an extra attack...

So if you have a Power sword and a Rending claw you don't get it...that sort of thing.

But models with 2 forms of special attack are exceedingly rare.


Shall we ignore the Striking Scorpion Exarch "Scorpion Claw"? I'm fairly certain that the Nerf hits them harder than anyone else.


I don't think it hurts them too much, since they already had more attacks. If I've understood this right, they used to have 4 claw attacks (5 on charge) and now have 3 (4 on charge).

On that subject though, my Scorpion Exarch has 2 special attacks - the claw (fist w/built-in pistol) and a chainsword. I presume in 5th ed I still have to choose which to use? If I choose the chainsword, do I still get the +1A for the claw? Sorry to drag this out, I think the answer's "yes" but I want to make sure!

Reticent
06-06-2008, 14:30
If TLOS is evaluated from the shooting model's eye to the target's body, how do you evaluate it for models that don't actually have eyes?

x-esiv-4c
06-06-2008, 14:33
Also, what constitues a clear target? In that, how much of the model has to be exposed in order to be shot at at all?

Gaftra
06-06-2008, 14:37
Shall we ignore the Striking Scorpion Exarch "Scorpion Claw"? I'm fairly certain that the Nerf hits them harder than anyone else.

wait? we werent ignoring striking scorpions already?

i havent seen it yeat but i heard infiltrators can enter from any table edge if they are held in reserve. any truth to this? my kroot need to get dusted off pretty bad.

Stezerok
06-06-2008, 14:55
Also, what constitues a clear target? In that, how much of the model has to be exposed in order to be shot at at all?

Well here's the thing. With True LoS the wording is such that if you can see a part of the main body or Torso then you can fire. With that, GW has a bunch of side notes and such to sort of tell players how to be fair and use common sense, so if you can see a foot, or a hand, or the frills of an Eldar helmet, that wouldn't constitute sight.

If you mean as far as cover goes, then it would have similar notes suggesting that you and your opponent come to consensus on how much of the model has to be blocked to gain a save, and out of that, the rulebook suggests that if an agreement really can't be held, then downgrade the save by -1 (so a woods which give 4+ becomes a 5+ and so forth).

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Pootleflump
06-06-2008, 14:55
I don't think it hurts them too much, since they already had more attacks. If I've understood this right, they used to have 4 claw attacks (5 on charge) and now have 3 (4 on charge).

On that subject though, my Scorpion Exarch has 2 special attacks - the claw (fist w/built-in pistol) and a chainsword. I presume in 5th ed I still have to choose which to use? If I choose the chainsword, do I still get the +1A for the claw? Sorry to drag this out, I think the answer's "yes" but I want to make sure!

The scorpion exarch only has 2 CCW in this config
the Claw and his Chainsword.
The claw mounted weapon is actually a catapult not a pistol if I remember correctly.
So whichever he strikes with I suspect he will only ever get his 2 base attacks + 1 for the Mandiblasters & another +1 if charging
I like the change, now I have a harder choice to make when thinking about his equipment.
I think I will give Chainsabres a try as the new rules for combat mean the scorpions all get to strike, even if he goes buckwild during the initiative phase before them

Krootman
06-06-2008, 15:37
Shall we ignore the Striking Scorpion Exarch "Scorpion Claw"? I'm fairly certain that the Nerf hits them harder than anyone else.



This sentence doesn't make alot of sence. Learn 2 Grammar kthxbye.

But assuming you mean that you can't arm a character like that, then you're wrong. I just looked it up and BA Chappies can have A crozius, a PF, and a Bolt pistol.

That being said, I made an error in typing and what I meant to say was that you could get an extra attack if you used the Crozius and the Pistol, as Stezerok points out below.
I thought I missed one, im sorry im not a perfect individual, and no it doesn't really hurt them as hard as marine and guard characters...but regardless thats 2 out of 8 armies so im pretty sure im still ok in making that generalization. And you attacking my grammar means you have nothing else on me to attack so thank you for telling me im right.

Krootman
06-06-2008, 15:38
I don't think it hurts them too much, since they already had more attacks. If I've understood this right, they used to have 4 claw attacks (5 on charge) and now have 3 (4 on charge).

On that subject though, my Scorpion Exarch has 2 special attacks - the claw (fist w/built-in pistol) and a chainsword. I presume in 5th ed I still have to choose which to use? If I choose the chainsword, do I still get the +1A for the claw? Sorry to drag this out, I think the answer's "yes" but I want to make sure!

No because it counts as a powerfist, if you use the biting blade and a pistol then you would.

Krootman
06-06-2008, 15:42
Another nice thing I noticed is the edge of the board counts as impassable terrain, and the blood angles codex says dp,s stop when they hit impassable terrain, Do you see the power in that too :D

Danny Internet
06-06-2008, 15:50
Okay, here's another new one to get away from all this powerfist/damage chart repetition.

When a charger charges two units, in what order are the pile in moves done? Is it on a unit by unit basis, or does the person recieving the charge just move models as he wishes? Potentially quite significant.

I think this is an important point that is generally overlooked. There is also the question of what happens when 2 units charge a single unit. It is possible that Charger 1 charges, the enemy unit counter-charges, and then Charger 2 charges.

This can result in the second charging unit being out of range, or, perhaps more significantly, it may allow the second charging unit to engage a unit on the fringe and minimize any return blows (like in 4th edition).

Krootman
06-06-2008, 16:54
I think this is an important point that is generally overlooked. There is also the question of what happens when 2 units charge a single unit. It is possible that Charger 1 charges, the enemy unit counter-charges, and then Charger 2 charges.

This can result in the second charging unit being out of range, or, perhaps more significantly, it may allow the second charging unit to engage a unit on the fringe and minimize any return blows (like in 4th edition).

you do it one at a time, whos ever turn it is goes first, they declare a charge with unit a who charges unit b, unit b then counter moves. The attacker then declares another charge with unit c and charges, then unit d counter charges so on and so 4th

nathonicus
06-06-2008, 16:55
I think this is an important point that is generally overlooked. There is also the question of what happens when 2 units charge a single unit. It is possible that Charger 1 charges, the enemy unit counter-charges, and then Charger 2 charges.

This can result in the second charging unit being out of range, or, perhaps more significantly, it may allow the second charging unit to engage a unit on the fringe and minimize any return blows (like in 4th edition).

Actually, I don't think this is correct.

The player whose turn it is moves ALL charging units.

Then the other player makes ALL consolidation moves.

GW is at least trying to avoid confusion in this edition! ;)

kore
06-06-2008, 17:50
i havent seen it yeat but i heard infiltrators can enter from any table edge if they are held in reserve. any truth to this? my kroot need to get dusted off pretty bad.

If the leak was anything like the final version, units held in Reserve that have Infiltrators or Scouts as abilities may enter from the side table edges or their own on a roll. Something like: 1-2 (left edge), 3-4 (own edge), 5-6 (right edge). In the leak it was referred to as "outflanking".

SwordJon
06-06-2008, 18:08
Also, what constitues a clear target? In that, how much of the model has to be exposed in order to be shot at at all?

You have to see the targets body, which is defined in the rulebook as: head, chest, legs, arms. Any of those will provide a target.

SwordJon
06-06-2008, 18:13
I think this is an important point that is generally overlooked. There is also the question of what happens when 2 units charge a single unit. It is possible that Charger 1 charges, the enemy unit counter-charges, and then Charger 2 charges.

This can result in the second charging unit being out of range, or, perhaps more significantly, it may allow the second charging unit to engage a unit on the fringe and minimize any return blows (like in 4th edition).

Negative. You move all of your charging units before your opponent reacts. Then your opponent does his reaction moves. Then you fight the combats.

Danny Internet
06-06-2008, 18:15
Actually, I don't think this is correct.

The player whose turn it is moves ALL charging units.

Then the other player makes ALL consolidation moves.

GW is at least trying to avoid confusion in this edition! ;)


Negative. You move all of your charging units before your opponent reacts. Then your opponent does his reaction moves. Then you fight the combats.

Is this supposition or are you in possession of a rulebook?

SwordJon
06-06-2008, 18:16
He's completely right - and yes, I've got the rulebook in front of me.

Danny Internet
06-06-2008, 18:19
He's completely right - and yes, I've got the rulebook in front of me.

Ah, good to know then. Thanks.

Krootman
06-06-2008, 18:24
Negative. You move all of your charging units before your opponent reacts. Then your opponent does his reaction moves. Then you fight the combats.

I was close I only read the rule book once so I dont have the specifics down yet :p

Partisan Rimmo
06-06-2008, 18:35
I don't think it hurts them too much, since they already had more attacks. If I've understood this right, they used to have 4 claw attacks (5 on charge) and now have 3 (4 on charge).

On that subject though, my Scorpion Exarch has 2 special attacks - the claw (fist w/built-in pistol) and a chainsword. I presume in 5th ed I still have to choose which to use? If I choose the chainsword, do I still get the +1A for the claw? Sorry to drag this out, I think the answer's "yes" but I want to make sure!

I'm quite sure that you do.

Krootman
06-06-2008, 18:54
I'm quite sure that you do.

No you dont, its like having a lighting claw and a bp, think of a p fist as a lighting claw now. You have to have the biting blade and a pistol to get +1 attack.

Lord Balian
06-06-2008, 22:07
So far I'm liking everything I'm hearing. I appreciate all the info here guys, I only had about 15 minutes to glance through it myself last week, at my LGS.

How does wound allocation work in combat? Is it the same as shooting, where you apply wounds round robin and can potentially peal out unique models?

This was the first I heard about games ending in 5 turns. Very interesting, and combined with deadlier assaults, run moves, and faster deployment setup, tournies might start seeing full 5 turn games.

vlorlich
06-06-2008, 22:18
I have a few more questions about the Assault Phase.

Its my turn. I am going to charge with three units. I measure the distance and find that for two of them, they are just at the 6 inch range to get into base to base. So now we know... two units are can charge and one unit cannot.

Is it at this point that the defending player then moves the defending units forward and meets my charging units halfway? So technically I am not really charging 6 inches but just 3. Can the defending player respond with more than one unit to counter charge even though I am only charging one unit? Could the defending player choose to counter charge against the unit that did not have the reach to make into base to base and still initiate close combat?

The unit that did not have the reach to make the charge... do they get to move the 6 inches now? I believe that is how it is in fantasy... you charge whether you reach the enemy or not. I could be wrong.

neophryte
06-06-2008, 23:45
No, you move all of your units the full amount and then the "counterattack" move happens.

Ammedie
07-06-2008, 01:01
what do skimmers get save wise if they move over 6 and less than 12 ie when there still shooting thus usefull?

any change on partial hits from blast markers?

how are hills delt with?

blast weapons and shooting at vehicals? do i have to get the center hole on? or just any of it? is there any difference between blast and orgenance other than the size of the templet in this area.

TLOS...... dose this mean that my 'new and exciting battle wagon with those handy big banners and screens out the sides' can be abused to sheild some of my troops?

assault and defencive grenades.. there in the deamon book and no other and presumably in 5th. so what is the difference?

any change to 'jet packs' or jetbikes?




dark reaper exarches just got good with tempest launchers....

dose BS6 od anything?

any limiets on fireing ordnace and other things? can i move and fire ordence and my heavy stubber? (pintol mounted or not)

what compensation is there for shooting to balence out the 'run' rule?

Cosmic_Girl
07-06-2008, 01:17
Hello,


No you dont, its like having a lighting claw and a bp, think of a p fist as a lighting claw now. You have to have the biting blade and a pistol to get +1 attack.

I feel quite sure a Biting Blade is a two handed weapon and can never be paired with any other weapon to gain a +1 attacks bonus. Has this changed in 5th ed.?

Another question, if skimmers get no benefit from moving less than 12" (defensively speaking) does this mean Tau skimmers which are incapable of moving more than 12" will never receive a defensive benefit?

Many thanks,

C-girl.

Bloodknight
07-06-2008, 01:33
Correct. Tau tanks will have to make do with terrain cover, since speed cover is no option for them.

Nurgling Chieftain
07-06-2008, 01:48
Well, that and disruption pods, which make the whole issue moot. :p

big squig
07-06-2008, 03:36
Well, that and disruption pods, which make the whole issue moot. :p
Seriously, disruption pods just became the best vehicle upgrade in the game.

SwordJon
07-06-2008, 04:03
what do skimmers get save wise if they move over 6 and less than 12 ie when there still shooting thus usefull?


Nothing.


any change on partial hits from blast markers?

how are hills delt with?

No partials, and all terrain is true Line of Sight.


blast weapons and shooting at vehicals? do i have to get the center hole on? or just any of it? is there any difference between blast and orgenance other than the size of the templet in this area.

Rules are similar to what they are now when shooting at vehicles. The only major difference is that if a blast weapon scatters, the shot is assumed to come from the direction of the center of the template.


TLOS...... dose this mean that my 'new and exciting battle wagon with those handy big banners and screens out the sides' can be abused to sheild some of my troops?

If you can manage to fit 50% of your squad behind a few bits and pieces, then I suppose so. But enemies at different angles could easily deny you cover saves.



assault and defencive grenades.. there in the deamon book and no other and presumably in 5th. so what is the difference?

any change to 'jet packs' or jetbikes?

Think plasma grenades and photon grenades.

Jet packs gain relentless. The rulebook specifically says Dark Eldar jetbikes also get to move in the assault phase.



dose BS6 od anything?

any limiets on fireing ordnace and other things? can i move and fire ordence and my heavy stubber? (pintol mounted or not)

what compensation is there for shooting to balence out the 'run' rule?



A higher BS than 6 allows re-rolls to hit.

You cannot fire anything else if you fire ordnance, ever.

Units can no longer consolidate into other units. Moreover, area terrain does not block line of sight by default - it must be accurately modeled to do so.

Azzy
07-06-2008, 04:39
Seriously, disruption pods just became the best vehicle upgrade in the game.

Damned right, get a 4+ cover save while sitting out in the open! But multi-trackers are pretty good, too: Move 6" and fire everything, or move 12" and fire your main weapon (plus any defensive weapons, if you actually had any). :)

AllisterCaine
07-06-2008, 04:47
Damned right, get a 4+ cover save while sitting out in the open! But multi-trackers are pretty good, too: Move 6" and fire everything, or move 12" and fire your main weapon (plus any defensive weapons, if you actually had any). :)

Totally. However fast vehicles moving 12" will only be able to shoot 1 gun instead of 1 gun and all defensive. Its not like thats going to matter though, seeing how much all the other races tanks just got screwed over. Except Marines...because they're Marines and the rules dont apply to them.

SwordJon
07-06-2008, 05:37
Totally. However fast vehicles moving 12" will only be able to shoot 1 gun instead of 1 gun and all defensive. Its not like thats going to matter though, seeing how much all the other races tanks just got screwed over. Except Marines...because they're Marines and the rules dont apply to them.

It is still one gun and all defensive. But the strength of defensive weapons has been changed.

kendaop
07-06-2008, 06:55
What about MCs and Ordnance? Are they allowed to fire Ordnance when they move? I'm thinking about Ku'Gath here. Also, is that rumor about always being able to fire assault weapons on vehicles when you move true?

Stezerok
07-06-2008, 06:59
Also, is that rumor about always being able to fire assault weapons on vehicles when you move true?

lol definitely not...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

kendaop
07-06-2008, 07:05
You make it sound like it's the complete opposite....do you know something we don't?

Stezerok
07-06-2008, 07:18
You make it sound like it's the complete opposite....do you know something we don't?

oh no. It's not that. The book says that defensive weapons are str 4, there never was any clause regarding assault weapons to begin with. The reason I may have sounded sarcastic, was just because so many people have been asking that question for so long now, I've begun to just find it kind of funny. No offense to you though man. :)

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Ammedie
07-06-2008, 09:45
so that makes it very hard to hit tanks with small blast weapons, skimmers other than tau ones over priced and dead, and korn baserkers moveing 12-18 towords you so you cant shoot them if you where alowed to.

but at least a skimmer can run away faster than an ork..



what about sniper rifles? do the sill wound on a 4+ or are they just s3?

Partisan Rimmo
07-06-2008, 11:43
No you dont, its like having a lighting claw and a bp, think of a p fist as a lighting claw now. You have to have the biting blade and a pistol to get +1 attack.

Oh yeah. What was I thinking?

Stezerok
07-06-2008, 17:38
so that makes it very hard to hit tanks with small blast weapons, skimmers other than tau ones over priced and dead, and korn baserkers moveing 12-18 towords you so you cant shoot them if you where alowed to.

but at least a skimmer can run away faster than an ork..



what about sniper rifles? do the sill wound on a 4+ or are they just s3?

While you are right about the small blast part for AT duty (pity for the Fire Prism...) I really don't know what you mean by the rest...

Skimmers are hardly over priced or dead for Eldar at least, considering that our durability has increased greatly now that the immobilized->destroyed result is only when we SMF, and since SMF is only on a 13"+, we have no need to move more than 6" so we can fire all of our guns.

And Tau skimmers now-a-days basically get all the perks of being a Fast Skimmer without having to be a Fast Skimmer lol. Eldar and Tau skimmers are very much alive, and will be seen often with Reserves and Autarchs all over the place.

And I also don't know about the Khorne Beserkers... What allows them to move 12-18"? I know they can move 6" and then run 1-6" which would be 7-12", but they then they can't assualt... is there some other rule you're speaking to?

As for rifles they still wound on a 4+, so they're at users bs, wound 4+, ap6, heavy 1, rending, pinning

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

SwordJon
07-06-2008, 17:46
Let's not forget skimmers can enter terrain now to get cover saves.

Stezerok
07-06-2008, 17:50
Let's not forget skimmers can enter terrain now to get cover saves.

oh they can? That does mean they have to take a dangerous terrain test right? Otherwise it would make that one Tau upgrade pretty bad... not like they don't already have some of the best upgrades lol

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Ravenous
07-06-2008, 19:02
oh they can? That does mean they have to take a dangerous terrain test right? Otherwise it would make that one Tau upgrade pretty bad... not like they don't already have some of the best upgrades lol

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Yeah skimmers cant "hover" anymore, its back to the 3rd ed days of; when you go into terrian you roll for your death.

The good news is that skimmers are NOT killed by immobilization results not matter how fast they go.

Stezerok
07-06-2008, 19:18
The good news is that skimmers are NOT killed by immobilization results not matter how fast they go.

Well, this isn't quite true, the immobilized->destroyed thing is only when getting SMF (ie, 13+")

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Ravenous
07-06-2008, 19:34
Well, this isn't quite true, the immobilized->destroyed thing is only when getting SMF (ie, 13+")

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Correct, its only when you declare you are going "flat out" its also the only time you get the 4+ save.

Torga_DW
07-06-2008, 23:51
I have a question. Can anybody clear up the troops or infantry only counting as scoring units rumour thingy i've been hearing? Would like to know exactly whats going on with that.

Gensuke626
07-06-2008, 23:56
Troops, but not vehicles and swarms, count as scoring in missions where there are objectives to be had. Everything else can contest the objective.

Torga_DW
08-06-2008, 00:11
So i can use my vanilla assault marine squad to contest an enemy held objective, but i only get points if i have a troops squad next to it?

Gensuke626
08-06-2008, 00:19
Yeah...something like that.

Lorieth
09-06-2008, 12:27
The scorpion exarch only has 2 CCW in this config
the Claw and his Chainsword.
The claw mounted weapon is actually a catapult not a pistol if I remember correctly.

You're right, it's a catapult not a pistol - sorry about that.


No because it counts as a powerfist, if you use the biting blade and a pistol then you would.

Hello,
I feel quite sure a Biting Blade is a two handed weapon and can never be paired with any other weapon to gain a +1 attacks bonus. Has this changed in 5th ed.?


I don't think 2-handed weapons have changed, so the biting blade would use base attacks (well, +mandi).


No you dont, its like having a lighting claw and a bp, think of a p fist as a lighting claw now.

My question really though is whether the claw counts as an extra CCW when you're not using its powerfield - i.e. are you not using the fist at all, or are you just using it to improve your chances to hit (by feinting, parrying etc.). In Krootman's example, I know I can't use the bp to get another lightning claw attack - but can I use the claw to get another ordinary (bp) attack?

Sorry if this is obvious to everyone, I've only got back into 40k this last year and before that it was all RT/2nd ed.

Ammedie
16-06-2008, 00:16
what about beast and cavelry.

i noticed today when rereading my deamons book that in the fast attack section that seekers are cavelry but flesh hounds are beasts.

wasnt beast and cavery the same (move 6 +d6 charge 12) in 4th edition. is this still so or is there a difference?

thus, have rouhg riders become more manoverable, thus more effective as a special weapon carrying unit.

onnotangu
16-06-2008, 00:46
is there any mention of what a twin linked flamer would do . I have witch hunters and since the whole mention of the fact that flamers templates hit everything underneath them automatically, what would be the exact point of having twinlinked handflamers?
reroll to wound maybe?