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View Full Version : Couple of 5th things I noticed that haven't seen elsewhere



neophryte
03-06-2008, 00:28
Aero hobbies has their copy of the 5th edition rulebook and I sat down for a while and looked up some specific questions we had and just browsed through it in general.

I will second what most people have said - artwork is amazing throughout. Tons of diagrams. Very good looking at first glance.

A lot of what I confirmed were things people were saying, but these are completely different that I hadn't noticed anyone posting yet.


1. Skimmers can avoid being rammed on a 3+

2. Non skimmer fast vehicles have a max of 18

3. Walkers always fire as if stationary - ie can fire all their weapons (with usual vehicle rules - no ordnance + others).

4. Going to ground prevents you from doing anything until the end of your following turn.

5. Fearless USR specifically says that you can go to ground.

6. New USR called "Rage"

7. AP- is -1 to the roll

8. Jump infantry have to take a dangerous terrain check if they start or end their move in difficult terrain (presumably can still walk out)

edit:

9. Different rules for buildings and ruins. You can destroy a (building but not ruins) just like vehicle that turns everything but wrecked or explodes (or whatever it is called) a shaken. If it is wrecked you should replace with ruins if you have them and then, like wrecked vehicles it is both dangerous and difficult. If it is totally destroyed you can replace it with rubble.

Bloodknight
03-06-2008, 00:34
I've seen almost all of them before here, but what does "Rage" do?

Tyrannus
03-06-2008, 00:42
Rage is the name they have given the rule spawn have for having to move towards the enemy and charging if possible.

Bloodknight
03-06-2008, 00:45
Ah, so it's a rule for units everybody avoids taking if possible *g*.

Ravenous
03-06-2008, 01:35
Yeah the jump infantry one was a bit of a disappointment to me, I thought it made more sense in 4th when it was only when you ended your move in difficult terrain.

But oh well, it makes the game "wacky".... which is apparently a good thing.

There was something about skilled rider that changed over that hasnt been mention but I cant remember it at the moment.

Oh and the other thing was that each mission has 3 different ways to set it up, I thought that was a good idea to change some of standard missions up a bit.

EDIT: One more bit; transports that are destroyed on a '5' (or the wrecked result) does not effect the passengers in anyway other then a pin check, and so far fearless units ignore it. Only on the EXPLODES! result do the passengers take damage.

Dras
03-06-2008, 01:43
Do jump infantry have to take the difficult terrain test if they start in difficult terrain but don't move at all? Also, can you choose to move normally (like regular infantry with a six inch move) either out of or into difficult terrain without having to take the test?

Thanx, Dras.

Ravenous
03-06-2008, 01:46
If you dont move your fine because you're not moving at all thus not activating the rule.

As for the move as infantry thing, I would have to get back to you on that.

sushicaddy
03-06-2008, 01:47
there is also an new USR called "Stubborn" where you never modify your leadership for tests, but I know of no units that have this rule.

could this possibly be what they are going to use for "and they shall know no fear" rather than the rather wacky rumor of leaving combat whenever they want?

Stubborn is WAY better than fearless, and I hope to my little toes that this is what marines get rather than a complicated and borken rule.

Ravenous
03-06-2008, 01:51
there is also an new USR called "Stubborn" where you never modify your leadership for tests, but I know of no units that have this rule.

could this possibly be what they are going to use for "and they shall know no fear" rather than the rather wacky rumor of leaving combat whenever they want?

Stubborn is WAY better than fearless, and I hope to my little toes that this is what marines get rather than a complicated and borken rule.

Apparently the new marines are getting it, there is also a slim chance dark and blood angels get it as well.

Combine it with ATSHNF and its pretty stupid.

Nurgling Chieftain
03-06-2008, 01:57
There was something about skilled rider that changed over that hasnt been mention but I cant remember it at the moment.What I remember noticing was that it no longer applies to jump pack troops, so IC's with jump packs landing (or leaving) terrain take a wound on a 1 with no re-roll. Eeek! :eek: ...Same with flying MC's, now that I think about it.

Dras
03-06-2008, 02:01
Thanx Ravenous.

From what I understand "relentless" is just the ability to fire weapons as though you were stationary even if you are moving. Do all jump infantry (and bikes/jetbikes???) get this special rule? I've read some stuff that made it sound like this might be the case. The reason I ask is I'm building an eldar army and though I had little interest in giving my autarch a reaper launcher (I was going to give him a fusion gun), the possibility that he could move and fire the launcher in the same turn is at least something worth considering.

Rosicrucian
03-06-2008, 02:11
Thanx Ravenous.

From what I understand "relentless" is just the ability to fire weapons as though you were stationary even if you are moving. Do all jump infantry (and bikes/jetbikes???) get this special rule? I've read some stuff that made it sound like this might be the case. The reason I ask is I'm building an eldar army and though I had little interest in giving my autarch a reaper launcher (I was going to give him a fusion gun), the possibility that he could move and fire the launcher in the same turn is at least something worth considering.

"Jet Pack" Infantry get relentless. I.e. the Tau stuff, not eldar or marine "Jump Infantry". Bikes of all varieties do get relentless.



there is also an new USR called "Stubborn" where you never modify your leadership for tests, but I know of no units that have this rule.

could this possibly be what they are going to use for "and they shall know no fear" rather than the rather wacky rumor of leaving combat whenever they want?

Stubborn is WAY better than fearless, and I hope to my little toes that this is what marines get rather than a complicated and borken rule.

This is just a USR version of the benefit provided by chem-inhalers and the Book of St. Lucius. I just think they're being forward thinking here.

MALICIOUS LOGIC
03-06-2008, 03:08
Yeah, apparently jetbikes have to take difficult terrain tests before and after their movement phase if they remain in cover. I need to re-read that because it might just be one or the other. It makes one of my favorite tactics useless (having jetbikes over terrain). But perhaps that was the intention of GW…

~Logic

Stezerok
03-06-2008, 05:26
yea Rage was an interesting one...

But did anybody notice how now FNP is ignored by dangerous terrain? I'm not sure if it was that way before but I personally think the visual of a Plague Marine tripping and spraining his ankle rather hilarious :p

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Draconian77
03-06-2008, 05:36
Hilarious is one word for it...

How does destoying buildings work? Do you have to "Assault" them or do you have to move into them? If its the former Hth troops could easily add inches to their movement.

neophryte
03-06-2008, 06:30
Intact buildings are just like immobile vehicles, so you can charge it, shoot it, whatever. Wooden shack has a 9 armor value and it goes up from there. Remember thought that it is only intact buildings, not ruins.

winterman
03-06-2008, 15:11
there is also an new USR called "Stubborn" where you never modify your leadership for tests, but I know of no units that have this rule.
Stubborn is not a new USR (check your 4ed book!), it just has new rules. Dark Angels use to have it as an army wide rule USR till their new book.

AunVa, the ethereal special character confers Stubborn to every Tau unit that has LOS to him. I can't think of any other units that reference the Stubborn USR but there probably is another somewhere.

Master Jeridian
03-06-2008, 15:22
I think the Difficult Terrain and Jump Troops ruling is one of the very few things from 5th Ed I like.

It blocks up the loophole that Tau players have been using throughout 4th. They walk their giant robots into terrain, shoot, then jump back out without a test.
Apparently flying through thick trees is only hazardous one way...

Codsticker
03-06-2008, 15:29
Yay for rules for intact buildings! It was always a bit of a disussion (especially with new opponents) with regards to how to treat moving into, shooting from and assaulting buildings.

oCoYoRoAoKo
03-06-2008, 15:39
10. And they shall know no fear is no longer a USR

11. The dark eldar artwork is AMAZING - Raiders have sails. SAILS!!!

Cy.

x-esiv-4c
03-06-2008, 16:17
Raiders have sails. SAILS!!!


hmm...They seem to be devolving...

Pootleflump
03-06-2008, 16:46
Interesting point on the Jump infantry and terrain.
Im not sure it will be to problematic as in 5th it looks like you can stand behind the terrain to shoot through/gain cover saves
Actually entering the terrain should not be necessary most of the time

neophryte
03-06-2008, 16:56
hmm...They seem to be devolving...

Into BFG? One of the Eldar races always used solar sails with their wacky, I am super fast... or am I rules.

They ride the winds of the webway or something like that. They actually do look really cool.

Ravening Wh0re
03-06-2008, 17:30
Into BFG? One of the Eldar races always used solar sails with their wacky, I am super fast... or am I rules.

They ride the winds of the webway or something like that. They actually do look really cool.

IIRC, it was powered by solar :)

Although the DE ships didn't rely on that kind of power.

Anyways, those DE pics sure look neato

Meriwether
03-06-2008, 18:39
If this has been stated somewhere, I've missed it:

Do blast templates still get reduced to half strength versus vehicles if the hole isn't over the hull?

Meri

neophryte
03-06-2008, 18:47
I believe so.

Rosicrucian
03-06-2008, 18:51
If this has been stated somewhere, I've missed it:

Do blast templates still get reduced to half strength versus vehicles if the hole isn't over the hull?

Meri

Yes, this is still the case.

x-esiv-4c
03-06-2008, 18:51
solar sails on small scale like a raider would work that well...
Well, I guess DE are pretty much f'ed during night fight rules :)

Rosicrucian
03-06-2008, 18:55
solar sails on small scale like a raider would work that well...
Well, I guess DE are pretty much f'ed during night fight rules :)

DE sails are propelled by the screams of their victims.

Alessander
05-06-2008, 18:37
Rage says they must move to & charge nearest enemy they can see, and must run if allowed to.

The new Rage USR is weird, since the only units that would probably need it (Death Company, Flesh Hounds, Khorne Berzerkers) don't have it. Get ready for an FAQ...

Still amused that ATSKNF is gone.

S&P gets Relentless, while Relentless allows you to assault after shooing those heavy weapons.

My biggest LOL while reading was about dice rolls:

"if a die rolls off the table, you do not need a flashlight to read the die if it rolls under the sofa, just re-roll it on the table." similar thing for cocked dice too...

Stezerok
05-06-2008, 19:37
yea, I agree about the Rage thing, I did find that weird...

but as for ATSKNF, considering that Marines are the only race that have this rule I think it was the right thing to just place it as a rule in their new dex, the same as True Grit with Grey Knights and Space Wolves (?).

I think the dice thing was pretty funny too (especially because they call flashlights torches in the UK and that gave me great visuals too...), but I think it really shows about how much thought that they put into the book that it would have so many little suggestions about how to use common sense and sportsmanship (something some of us need at times), and despite not being "rules" per se they are nice.

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Ravenous
05-06-2008, 20:18
One rule I thought was interesting was "steal the initiative".

After the set up rules is done normally the person who set his army up first would indeed go first, however the person who set up second can "steal the initiative" and if they roll a 6 then the person who set up second goes first instead.

Seems needlessly complicated and kind of wonky/wacky but Im getting the feel that is what 5th edition is all about.

2nd edition was the zany edition
3rd edition was the transport edition
4th edition was the shooting edition
5th edition is the wacky edition

Karnage
05-06-2008, 20:28
Yeah, I tried 5th Edition on Tuesday during Vets Night and we used the Seize the Initiative rule for the first time. I'd chosen to set up second so I could see where my artillery needed to be placed to chase off the Ork horde that was facing me....and then I went and rolled a six, giving me the first turn again :D

Marshal2Crusaders
05-06-2008, 21:00
Is there a counter to steal the Initiative? If not doesn't that seem a little tough to counter, oh well It will probably make for a cinematic feel.

Ravenous
05-06-2008, 21:03
Is there a counter to steal the Initiative? If not doesn't that seem a little tough to counter, oh well It will probably make for a cinematic feel.

There is nothing you can do to counter it.

So on a 6 it basically hands the game to the person who set up second, I guess GW didnt want to fully get rid of the "roll to see who wins" phase of the game.

Stezerok
05-06-2008, 21:08
Is there a counter to steal the Initiative? If not doesn't that seem a little tough to counter, oh well It will probably make for a cinematic feel.

meh, I mean I don't think it's going to be something that can honestly be depended on. I mean the chance that this will occur is one out of every six games that you were forced or chose to deploy second, which probably means that it will be more likely one out of between 10 or 12 games... This by itself is enough reason that the rule isn't completely dumb and broken...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Sildani
05-06-2008, 21:32
One gem I liked was how Karandras and Arhra, opposing Phoenix Lords of the Striking Scorpions, fought a duel lasting seventeen days among the ruins of Zandros, sometime in the year 41K.

I guess we'll never, ever, see the Slicing Orbs on the table top. Pity.

Gensuke626
05-06-2008, 23:58
Ah, so it's a rule for units everybody avoids taking if possible *g*.

yeah...rage is frenzy without the benefit.

Varath- Lord Impaler
06-06-2008, 04:30
yeah...rage is frenzy without the benefit.

...

"Yeah, im not going to charge my Death Company into combat"

nope...i just dont see it.

Koryphaus
06-06-2008, 05:14
Yeah the jump infantry one was a bit of a disappointment to me, I thought it made more sense in 4th when it was only when you ended your move in difficult terrain.


What's disappointing about that? I thought it made perfect sense. I figure that its entirely possible to have an accident when you're taking off, especially in the middle of a battle where there's shells and explosions and all sorts of things that could distract you from making a perfect takeoff.

Temprus
06-06-2008, 06:04
Any mention of Allies or Multiple Detachments?

Bloodknight
06-06-2008, 12:09
@Varath: the problem is that that unit is not controllable at all, but runs towards the next enemy unit. If that enemy unit happens to be something like a 50 point Landspeeder, they will chase it, assault it, and get shot to hell, because that bait unit will try to be in the open. It is a crap rule that creates crappy units.

You don't see spawn because of it. They would actually be quite acceptable for their points if they did not run around uselessly to get shot up. It is kind of the old Berzerkers who would run towards and assault anything, even if they could not hurt it. That rule is nothing but a huge drawback. If it worked like frenzy in WFB, you'd at least get additional attacks for being hardly controllable.

Varath- Lord Impaler
06-06-2008, 12:36
@Varath: the problem is that that unit is not controllable at all, but runs towards the next enemy unit. If that enemy unit happens to be something like a 50 point Landspeeder, they will chase it, assault it, and get shot to hell, because that bait unit will try to be in the open. It is a crap rule that creates crappy units.

You don't see spawn because of it. They would actually be quite acceptable for their points if they did not run around uselessly to get shot up. It is kind of the old Berzerkers who would run towards and assault anything, even if they could not hurt it. That rule is nothing but a huge drawback. If it worked like frenzy in WFB, you'd at least get additional attacks for being hardly controllable.

I played Old Beserkers, they were my first army and my first foray into wargaming. I played them for 5 years. When i had the autocharge it really didnt bother me. So i have to charge the landspeeder? Oops, it just got shot down by my squad with bolters and my preds.

Seriously, a land Speeder within 12" of any beserker unit means that its a very dead Land Speeder by the rest of the army.

xinsanityx
06-06-2008, 13:27
Back when berzerkers did that, i would gladly sacrifice a land speeder or vyper, and zoom them 24 inches behind all the berzerkers. Then i'd watch in glee as all the berzerkers proceeded to move away from my battle line, just to chase down a 50 point vehicle. Then the next turn i'd do it again.

That rage USR really has no good side to it. If the enemy can control where your units go, it is not a good thing.

don_mondo
06-06-2008, 14:48
Back when berzerkers did that, i would gladly sacrifice a land speeder or vyper, and zoom them 24 inches behind all the berzerkers. Then i'd watch in glee as all the berzerkers proceeded to move away from my battle line, just to chase down a 50 point vehicle. Then the next turn i'd do it again.

That rage USR really has no good side to it. If the enemy can control where your units go, it is not a good thing.


I do that now to Black Templars. Work a unit behind them with Deep Strike or whatever, shoot them up, and watch them all Righteous Zeal away from my main fioring line (I play IG).

KazenX
06-06-2008, 15:10
I have to agree with varath on this one the always charge closest was never that big of a deal for me with my Khorne. When they charged like that they were in frenzy and had an additional move giving them up to 18in (including charge) and if they wern't in frenzy (it was only on a 1 or 2 w/o upgrading the champ) I could either move back towards the line or shoot the offending skimmer, didn't work so well on hammer heads or falcons but it did move them out of position the better to be hit by defilers or dreadnaughts. Given the limited size of the table it was usally pretty easy to herd the opponent into a corner. The only situation where I ever got led around was with a jet bike army (which would have made little difference any way as Khorne are assault oriented) but he couldn't move far enough away to protect his bikes and shoot so I was unmolested, save for lossing 2 guys to falcons a turn, but he couldn't control enough objectives that way so I won.

Spawn are great models and with a potental 12in move (with the fleet they get from beast) and 12in charge it would be a fairly exceptional situation where they coulden't hit somthing. I think the real reason why we haven't seen them is that most chaos armies are fairly developed and don't need the additional assault power, they are neat but in a codex that emphasizes assault they get lost in the hoipoli.

Meriwether
06-06-2008, 15:24
I liked using a waveserpent to lead a Berzerker-Glaive wielding DP away from my entire army. I was sad when my opponents finally got wise and stopped bringing the glaive.

That said, I don't use Spawn for assault power at all -- I use them to tie up the enemy for exactly one turn, so that I get an extra turn of shooting the crap out of them with noise marines. Works just about every time.

Meri

neophryte
06-06-2008, 19:03
I do that now to Black Templars. Work a unit behind them with Deep Strike or whatever, shoot them up, and watch them all Righteous Zeal away from my main fioring line (I play IG).

The Black Templar player should just not be moving. Zeal is exactly like a consolidate. A consolidate is UP TO the number rolled. If your opponent is zealing towards stuff like that he is giving you a pretty serious advantage.

Plebian
06-06-2008, 19:14
Hey this may already have been covered, but what is the difference between direct and indirect fire? I know direct is 2d6-BS...what is indirect?

neophryte
06-06-2008, 19:32
direct is 2d6 no modifiers

Stezerok
06-06-2008, 19:52
direct is 2d6 no modifiers

indirect is 2d6 no modifiers ;)

direct is 2d6-bs

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

shadow hunter
06-06-2008, 21:22
"Jet Pack" Infantry get relentless. I.e. the Tau stuff, not eldar or marine "Jump Infantry".

I thought warp spiders were also classed as jet pack? And the Autarch geezer can have one of them?

Nurgling Chieftain
06-06-2008, 22:32
Zeal is exactly like a consolidate. A consolidate is UP TO the number rolled.Zeal substitutes the word "must" for "up to".


I thought warp spiders were also classed as jet pack?No, they're jump infantry with a special ability. If you want an Autarch to have relentless (so he can fire a reaper launcher on the move), you can give him a jetbike.

shadow hunter
07-06-2008, 09:35
Oh right, ta.

I already gave one of my 4 Autarchs a reaper launcher and warp jump pack anyway. Would have the jetbike Autarch, but he looks kack.

Ravenous
07-06-2008, 19:10
indirect is 2d6 no modifiers ;)

direct is 2d6-bs

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

In the grim darkness of the far future there is only exceptionally strong winds...

Stezerok
07-06-2008, 19:20
In the grim darkness of the far future there is only exceptionally strong winds...

and exceptionally bad aim...

Ah it's a pity that Maugen Ra couldn't have come with a Tempest Launcher:

2 small blasts that scatter 0-5"? :angel:

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Mike KK
07-06-2008, 20:07
"Jet Pack" Infantry get relentless. I.e. the Tau stuff, not eldar or marine "Jump Infantry". Bikes of all varieties do get relentless.



This is just a USR version of the benefit provided by chem-inhalers and the Book of St. Lucius. I just think they're being forward thinking here.

space wolves have stubborn too

Dalamyr the Fleetmaster
07-06-2008, 22:13
FInally fixing the damn jump infantry rule that just seemed dumb "no i'm not going to be affected by that tree branch in the way because im jumping out of cover rather hen into it" makes far more sense

Hrogoff the Destructor
12-06-2008, 22:48
Here's some more rules I haven't noticed around here, then again, I haven't looked around the 5th edition section a whole lot.

If an independant character is within 2 inches of a squad, he counts as being attached to the squad.

If an independant character is with a RETINUE, he count's a just being a model in that squad and not as an independant character. In other words the independant character cannot be targeted out in close combat, and it's incredibly useful for avoiding power fists.

Slow and purposeful just counts as moving through difficult terrain and stationary for firing. So they can rapid fire and shoot heavy weapons and then charge. But when they charge they count as moving through difficult terrain and such strike at initiative 1. So, assuming an enemy charges them or they are already in combat, they strike at their normal initiative. And, they also get +1 attack on the charge (I saw no rule restricting them from that).

Independant characters do not benefit from squad special rules, and squads do not benefit from special character's special rules. So if a chaos lord is fearless and joins up with a normal chaos marine squad, they do not become fearless. So if the squad flees from close combat, the chaos lord runs off with them.

Feel no pain is ignored by ap1 and ap2 weapons now (in addition to power weapons and MAYBE weapons double your toughness).

With perils of the warp you have to reroll successful saves due to the warp being so dangerous.

Beasts/cavalry don't have fleet anymore. They just got 6 inch movement and 12 inch charge.

And here's a bigee. Say your in close combat and you have five guys that cannot attack. The enemy goes first and kills five guys. It says you can remove the 5 models that are not engaged in close combat.

There's a bunch of other stuff, but I think that stuff is common knowledge by this point. There's so many threads I have trouble telling whether or not it is.

.H.
13-06-2008, 08:02
Beasts/cavalry don't have fleet anymore. They just got 6 inch movement and 12 inch charge.

That's not true at all. Beast and Cavalry most certainly do have Fleet.

Hrogoff the Destructor
14-06-2008, 01:15
Really? I must of totally missed it then.

Unfortunately I didn't look at the book that long. I probably got more than just that wrong.