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Sir_Lunchalot
03-06-2008, 05:34
With the armies now officially split up the Mortals have their own (WD) list. Let's get a new tactica to go with the new list.

here's my two cents

Magic items:

Is it just me or is the chaos runesword absolutely ridiculously amazing. oh so my killing machine gets more wounds for killing things with no maximum? Am I the only one who sees this getting way out of hand?

What brainiac made the Enchanted shield CHEAPER than a regular shield for a lord, and the same points as a normal shield for your heroes? seriously, the only reason you wouldn't do this for your lord is if, like me, you absolutely had to max out your magic items on other things.

CHARACTERS

I think that the cost of wargear is a bit ridiculous. why would I pay for a great weapon or a shield for my lord when I can get a magic shield and a magic weapon for LESS? I'm a bit disapointed my Tzeentch lord isn't the murder machine he used to be. Then again, maybe it's a good thing 'cause my firends will stop hating me. and he's now 100 points cheaper. I like that Tzeentch sorcerors can use any lore. Lore of beasts + chaos character, anyone? 8 S7 attacks and T6 with chaos armor.... and now I don't have to buy a beasts unit to get that. I still don't like Daemon Princes, think Chaos lords are more survivable, and with magic weapons are more killy anyways. the only reasons I'd take one are a) I've got a really cool model or b) I need Terror. Not much specifically about heroes, but am I reading it wrong or can our battle standard bearer actually use other wargear with the battle standard?

CORE

Cheaper Warriors. About Time. I like how the marks are costed now. Nurgle is actually useful now that I can take a sizeable unit. Tzeentch is now a completely different effect, I think I'll like an army with a ward save.

SPECIAL

With knights being cheaper, along with the upgrade to chosen, I see myself using a lot more of these guys. I like that chariots are now cheaper, but being special and competing with cheap knights, I may not be able to field as many as I used to.

RARE

Nice to see we can use Hellcannon in all lists, although it's unfortunate I can now only take 1 in 2k.

Overall with the now cheaper units I see it as being a slightly more horde army, I can see more big blocks of warriors and more units of knights now that they're priced affordably. I can see pretty much every army taking a hellcannon for their rare slots. Any dirty tricks you guys can think of?

Lord Khabal
03-06-2008, 07:52
The new list certainly has its advantages.
Sorcerer Lord of Tzeentch + staff of change with access to all lores is very good. You can still put a power stone on him...
Units being cheaper is also good.
Undivided lose re-roll is VERY bad. I think that slaanesh will be VERY played because of this...
The dragon breaths being weaker also sucks
Banner of wrath still sucks
khorne knights are dreamy, since the mounts also get +1 attack. No DD though.
No helm of the many eyes combo with undivided mark, which makes the item useless. for its points cost it should just give ASF.
Personally I think all magic weapons suck. But that is just me.
Golden eye is back. That is good. Chaos Lord of tzeentch isnt a sorceror anymore. That is bad.
Hellcannon cant take the DMS anymore, which is bad.
marauders with LA and Sh still cost more than an empire swordsman. Why???
No shields on marauder horseman?WTF? throwing axes is just 1 point and javelins are 4. Im sure everyone will play javelins...

decker_cky
03-06-2008, 08:12
Golden eye can now be taken on a lord that's now sinking quite as many points into the same model. There's positives and negatives to the loss of the sorceror on that one. I think in many ways, it's a better model since it lets you dominate the sky while keeping a decent force for the rest of the army.

The basic magic weapons are great 'deals' so will almost always be taken.

the_orc
03-06-2008, 09:12
I think the new list is crap.

Warriors are cheaper, but the Knights and chariots get an even bigger point drop. Seems to me that someone still hasn't understood that pretty much all rushing troops are underpriced compared to infantry.

Ridiculous is that marauders with light armour and shield are still 7 points and even pay more for their command options as compared to imperial swordsmen that have the same profile, cost 6 points and come with a handy detachment rule. - GW could at least make sure that flaws that are so easy to spot don't happen.

I think not being a sorceror is a huge advantage for a tzeentch lord. For 650 points you get a tzeentch lord with demonblade and golden eye on dragon (12 S6 attacks with a 3+ ward save against shooting). This is about 150-200 points less than it used to be. - You could also get the armour of damnation and a sword of might instead of the demonblade, which would eben make the bloodthirster think twice before charging. - Is it only me who thinks that this is kind of overpowered?

I believe there will be few typical army layouts with this list:
Large numbers of infantry will only be played if you have the Banner of Chaos or the Hellcannon. Still your infantry is too expensive to field many of them. Unless you shorten the time to get into close combat (by forcing the enemy to move forward with the cannon) or you can hold combat even with small units (with the big banner), you still don't have much of a change against those shooting and countercharging armies like empire or high elves.
Most players will most likely minimize point costs of core troops: 3x 10 naked marauders with musician and put all the remaining points in chariots, knights and mounted champions. I don't see how this has changed compared to the old army book.

I pray that for the real army book they come up with some ideas that are more worth while. And if there are not changing the concept, that beasts and mortals can't be mixed, they should think about troops that actually can drive wood elves out of a wood without being stuck there for the rest of the game and something that can destroy a steam tank for a reasonable point value. Just with S5 cavalry or S6 infantry you quite likely don't get enough close combat rounds to cause 10 wounds unless you send half of your army to destroy a 300 point model.

I want to play infantry, but I don't want my opponent to have pity on me for doing so.

CU - the_orc.

The Red Scourge
03-06-2008, 09:14
throwing axes is just 1 point and javelins are 4. Im sure everyone will play javelins...

Why? Throwing axes waaay better.

The lesser range is compensated for by being fast cav and S4 will cause twice as many casulties as S3.

Shame about the shields, but the real shame is MH going from core to special. Hopefully they'll get their senses back in time for november the hung need their horses :rolleyes:

The Red Scourge
03-06-2008, 09:31
I pray that for the real army book they come up with some ideas that are more worth while. And if there are not changing the concept, that beasts and mortals can't be mixed, they should think about troops that actually can drive wood elves out of a wood without being stuck there for the rest of the game and something that can destroy a steam tank for a reasonable point value. Just with S5 cavalry or S6 infantry you quite likely don't get enough close combat rounds to cause 10 wounds unless you send half of your army to destroy a 300 point model.

We've got the Hellcannon for stanks and lords on dragons will give it a pounding in a few rounds.

For elves in woods, try death magics Doom and Darkness and blast them with a cannon or land your dragon there. That should give them a good scare.

For flavor... We're ********* so I'm switching to beasts.

BTW: Warriors and knights didn't get cheaper as they lost their mark of undivided, marked warriors and knights got a points reduction, as you no longer have to pay for the mark of undivided.

Lord Khabal
03-06-2008, 09:54
@ the red scourge - I was being sarcastic about the javelins... No one will pay 4 pts for them when axes are +1S and 1 pt!!!!
@ the_orc - A bloodthirster will kick your ass even with armour of damnation. no ward save or regen in combat is a big no-no for combat oriented characters...
I agree that we will see lists with 3x10 naked marauders and the rest of the points spent on the "good stuff" such as knights and chariots. Probably the most powerful lists will be this way. Which was what happened before this list, but without the naked marauders. The loss of all skirmishers and flying units will hurt a LOT!!! The loss of flexibilty in the army must be compensated somehow in the coming list.
I really didn't mind paying the extra 5 pts for the re-roll on Undivided knights. And khorne knights now hit harder than chosen. cool!!!!

the_orc
03-06-2008, 12:07
We've got the Hellcannon for stanks and lords on dragons will give it a pounding in a few rounds.


So I have to play the overpowered hellcannon to get a chance against the "overpowered" steamtank. - Brilliant.

I don't think to charge with the dragon will be a good idea: You get 12 Attacks at S6. -> 8 hits -> 4 wounds -> 2 saves. That makes 2 wounds per round. You think you get 5 close combat rounds to beat the tank? - I would assume that in the next round you get charged by the war altar or a big unit of knights in the flank. And that usually means: bye, bye, mister chaoslord.



For elves in woods, try death magics Doom and Darkness and blast them with a cannon or land your dragon there. That should give them a good scare.


I don't think that dryads, wardancer or treemen are scared by a dragon, since they are immun to psychology.



For flavor... We're ********* so I'm switching to beasts.


Oh you mean those beastherds, being so stupid not recognizing that you now need to be 5 models wide to get a rank bonus.



BTW: Warriors and knights didn't get cheaper as they lost their mark of undivided, marked warriors and knights got a points reduction, as you no longer have to pay for the mark of undivided.

Good point. I didn't think about like this. But you are right. So this essentially means: All infantry becomes cheaper or better (and still is not played much), just chaos stays the way it is. - Can it get more ridiculous.

Ah yes. I forgot about the point increase for marauder commands.

Lord Khabal
03-06-2008, 12:22
@ the_orc: I dont think the hellcannon is overpowered. Rampage sucks bit time. units of fast cavalry or scouts can make a hellcannon useless for quite some time. Its a tricky weapon.

VS the steam tank is always autohit. So it's 12 hits - 6 wounds - 3 falied saves. So yeah, it's 3 to 4 turns there to gain 300 pts with your 650+ dragon. And you will get wounded of the ST impact hits.

And I agree on the marauders. Its just stupid.

sephiroth87
03-06-2008, 12:41
The beastherd rule rarely comes up in games. It's another case of internet frothing at the mouth over something that's pretty insignificant.

Also, in case you were wondering, this is a get-you-by list. There's going to be another list very soon that will have all sorts of neat stuff that your fellow denizens will be SCREAMING about. OMG11!

By the way, I always thought having to take a magic user on a chaos dragon was too expensive. You nearly had to have it tactically, just to get the eye of tzeentch. Now the guy is a beatstick and you don't need 140 points of magic levels to get it. I'm pretty pleased.

Neknoh
03-06-2008, 21:44
The marks:

With this get-you-by-list, both good and bad things arrive. First of all, the precie reductions and an actually rather nice boost to the marks. Never mind the lack of dispell dice or extra powerdice, or even that one extra wound. Things got cheaper and they got better.

Khorne has, in my opinnion, improved. First of all by a drop in price, however,
pure Frenzy gives mounts such as the Daemonic Mount, Chaos Dragon or even Chaos Steeds extra attacks.

Nurgle has gotten the same bonus, by dropping vastly in price, the Mark of Nurgle suddenly got useful. Especially on shield-warriors that now are rather vicious as big blocks. I'm certain many a nurgle player will agree with me, although, the loss of Nurglings is a rather hard blow to these nurgle lists.

Slaanesh, nothing new here whatsoever.

Tzeentch.
I am not sure. On the one hand, no reduction in Ld abillities like before, where the MoT was a trade-down, however, we don't get the extra powerdice. We get a wardsave. I'm in two here, we get a 6+ warsdave, it's not really wardsave-ish due to the 6+, had we gotten a 5+ one, if even against shooting, I'd be happy, but this, I'm not sure. On sorcerors however, it's HUGE. No more, no less, in a tournament setting, I would much prefer this character-version of the mark than the previous one. You can pick ANY lore in the big blue book? You mean I can pick Heavens, Life, Light and Metal to suit my foe? Heck, extra charge range on ANYTHING in this list is wonderful!


Tired and slightly dulled by training, won't start to ramble on about characters etc now. However, next post WILL be the Lords and the Heroes

ChaosCajun
03-06-2008, 23:09
I think the list stinks. I expected it to stiink, as it's a get-you-by list and this is usually the case with such GW lists. I'll wait for the army book in November to play them. I do like the revised marks, but not enough to play them yet.

I'm hoping we get some 'woods troops' in the form of marauders being given the raider rule of beasts (and maybe throwing axes and javelins like their cavalry), and a new cultist troop type of 'civilized' converts for cheap static res troops. Points values for these cheaper infantry need to be addressed, as well as magic items are needing an overhaul.

As far as tactica, I see MSU marauders core and max'd knights/characters. The only option for infantry/chariots would be with a sizable screen of warhounds (and only if the usual hill in the opponent deployment zone is blocked or not there at all).