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View Full Version : Do Impact hits happnen if charging bonuses are negated.



eleveninches
03-06-2008, 14:39
If I have a charachter or a unit that causes enemy to ignore charging bonuses (nightshroud, for example), does an enemy chariot that charges them still get impact hits. i wouldnt have thought so, as the definition of 'charging bonuses' is described in the defended obsticles section of the rulebook, and impact hits seem to fall into that category.

theunwantedbeing
03-06-2008, 14:41
It's pretty obvious if you read the paragraph on page 35 about a defended obstacle.

eleveninches
03-06-2008, 14:45
I read that, and thats why i dont think impact hits would work.


So, what if a vampire count has the nightshroud and is in a unit of blood knights. A chariot flank-charges the unit and is only in contact with the vampire. Would the impact hits still take effect against the unit even though the chariot is only in contact with the vampire. Impact hits are distributed throughout the unit as shooting, so they should still be able to effect the unit even though they are not TARGETING the vampire.

Spirit
03-06-2008, 22:55
Night shroud is only for attacks towards the vampire is it not? (i know the cursed book is)

If so, you still get impact hits, as they are placed as shooting, not at the vamp.

Milgram
04-06-2008, 07:17
unless the vamp is in a unit with less than 5 r'n'f models.

Jagosaja
04-06-2008, 07:22
So, what if a chariot charges a lone Vampire with Nightshroud?

DeathlessDraich
04-06-2008, 10:37
I read that, and thats why i dont think impact hits would work.


So, what if a vampire count has the nightshroud and is in a unit of blood knights. A chariot flank-charges the unit and is only in contact with the vampire. Would the impact hits still take effect against the unit even though the chariot is only in contact with the vampire. Impact hits are distributed throughout the unit as shooting, so they should still be able to effect the unit even though they are not TARGETING the vampire.




Night shroud is only for attacks towards the vampire is it not? (i know the cursed book is)

If so, you still get impact hits, as they are placed as shooting, not at the vamp.


So, what if a chariot charges a lone Vampire with Nightshroud?

1) Charging bonus is an undefined term. Its meaning is derived from
The Weapons Chapter - S bonus when charging and pg 35 as Unwanted stated.
Therefore charging bonuses are; i) S bonuses while charging ii) Striking first when charging.
Nothing more.
Impact hits are not a charging bonus.

2) Impact hits are inflicted at the very beginning of combat "before any model gets to *attack*"

Nightshroud is activated when the enemy model is *attacking* the Vampire.
Since Impact hits are not attacks in the same sense, it is not affected by Nightshroud. - as Spirit said above.

3) Impact hits distributed as shooting hits has been discussed before and is a quirk of the rules if only the character is in btb with the impacting chariot

4) The real problem with Impact hits rules is its contradiction on the order with Challenges when Skaven Censers are involved.

T10
04-06-2008, 10:48
Charging bonuses are the benefits you gain from charging. If you need to be charging for an effect to take place, then that effect does not take place if you lose your bonuses for charging.

Sample effects:
- Tomb Kings Bone Giant's Unstoppable Assault rule.
- Impact hits.
- Striking first.
- Lance or Spear Strength bonus.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
04-06-2008, 10:50
Which pg is that rule from please?

T10
04-06-2008, 10:56
You mean: Where are "charging bonuses" defined? I thought you knew they are not.

Faustburg
04-06-2008, 11:03
Bretonnia stakes lists impact hits among the "charge bonuses" that are negated.

it would be silly to claim that "Oh, but that is only for those then, the Nightshroud doesn't say anything..."

Gazak Blacktoof
04-06-2008, 11:16
Charging bonuses are the benefits you gain from charging.

-T10

Agreed. There's no need to read any more into it than this.

Anaris
05-06-2008, 10:22
So, what if a chariot charges a lone Vampire with Nightshroud?

Given that the Vampire will strike first, and no doubt with a GW, 9/10 the end result will be a dead chariot :)

Armilthuan
05-06-2008, 12:30
Yes, Impact hits fall among charging bonusses.

The question that remains however is: Are Impact hits considered an attack?

If no, the Impact hits go on the Vampire, and when I try to hit 'im with my stabby spears, the Nightshroud kicks in.

If yes, the Impact hits are stopped by Nightshroud.

But if Impact hits are described as an attack, can I allocate them (as would be normally allowed for any attack) to a hero? That sounds a bit strange to me.

RAW: I read that the Vampire suffers the Impact hits before the Nightshroud takes effect.

RAI: I do not know. Reading from the item's flavour text, the target is envelloped by dark tendrils. Is this enough to stop the crashing weight of a chargin chariot?

My 4 half cents...

Loopstah
05-06-2008, 13:20
I would say impact hits can still affect the unit the wearer of the Nightshroud is in.

Mainly because impact hits aren't an attack. They happen "before any model gets to attack" while the nightshroud only works on "Enemy models wishing to attack the wearer".

RAW:
1. Chariot charges.
2. Impact hits occur before attacks.
3. Chariot/ riders allocate their attacks.

If it said "enemy models in base to base with the wearer" or "enemy models charging the wearer" then I would support the no impact hits idea.

As it says "wishing to attack" I have to support the impact hits happen idea.

For example:
The wearer is in a unit the chariot charges.
The chariot base is touching the wearer and some other models.
The chariot allocates it's attacks to rank and file models rather than the character with the Nightshroud. (Why? Maybe they know he has it already, or want easy kills).
The chariot isn't attacking the wearer of the Nightshroud so doesn't lose any charging bonuses so impact hits happen, the chariot strikes first etc.....

The problem is as impact hits are worked out before attacks are allocated you would have to work out the impact hits first.

If the chariot then attacks the Nightshroud wearer the impact hits are negated, if it doesn't the impact hits stay.


As for the single model being attacked by a chariot I would have to say they don't get impact hits as the model wearing the Nightshroud is the only one they can attack which causes them to lose their bonuses including impact hits.

Faustburg
05-06-2008, 13:25
Huh?
That made no sense...

It is not stopping you from attacking with spears, you will just have to do so without the +1 S for charging.

And impact hits cannot be allocated deliberately to the character in a unit, it will hit the rest of his gang instead.

Loopstah
05-06-2008, 13:41
It's quite simple really:

The Nightshroud only works on enemy models that are attacking the model with the Nightshroud.



Is the chariot allocating attacks to the model carrying the Nightshroud?

Yes- The chariot loses all charging bonuses and the ability to cause impact hits which rely on charging.

No- The chariot acts as normal and retains the ability to cause impact hits.

xragg
05-06-2008, 21:37
Its worded pretty clearly that losing charging bonuses means units fight as if they were already engaged in the previous round. Impact hits from charging would be lost. Though, impact hits from a fleeing chariot or ones from a Stank grind would still be able to affect the unit (since they arent from a charge).

Disciple of Nagash
05-06-2008, 22:12
This was discussed in depth over at Carpe Noctem and due to the fact that it is something that only happens when you charge impact hits are classed as a charging bonus.

If the hits can be allocated elsewhere (a unit etc) then yes they still get their impact hits, against a lone vamp the hits are negated.

As for fluff wise it is a magic item doing this, if magic can destroy steam tanks or magic amour can deflect a cannon ball then its quite easy to assume a magic item is capable of slowing down wooden contraption.

DeathlessDraich
06-06-2008, 10:58
This was discussed in depth over at Carpe Noctem and due to the fact that it is something that only happens when you charge impact hits are classed as a charging bonus.
.

Carpe Noctem (dont know who they are) has forgotten Stank Grind which occurs well after charging.:D

EDIT - Isn't Grind a clear indication that Impact hits cover a broader field than charging and this then in turn puts into question whether it is a charge bonus?

WLBjork
06-06-2008, 11:15
What's the wording on Grind?

Isn't it X (or DX) hits which count as impact hits, but aren't actually impact hits?

ehlijen
06-06-2008, 13:55
Whether or not they are impact hits are not the issue, the issue is whether impact hits are done only one the charge or not. Normally, a chariot has to charge in order to do impact hits. If it doesn't charge (as would be the case against a lone vampire with that ability), there will be no impact hits.

In the case of the steam tank, it would generate impact hits as if already engaged in the previous round. This changes the number (I believe but may be wrong about) of impact hits from x or dx per steam point generated at the start of the turn (including the ones used for movement to reach the vampire) to x or dx per steam point not used for movement and therefore left over to still generate grind hits with.

Gazak Blacktoof
06-06-2008, 14:44
EDIT - Isn't Grind a clear indication that Impact hits cover a broader field than charging and this then in turn puts into question whether it is a charge bonus?

Not for a chariot which only gets them when charging.

DeathlessDraich
06-06-2008, 15:04
Not an answer to the question I asked unfortunately.

Loopstah
06-06-2008, 15:20
Not an answer to the question I asked unfortunately.

Chariots only get Impacts Hits when charging.

Therefore Impact Hits are a charge bonus for Chariots.

That doesn't mean they are a charge bonus for anything else, only that in respect to chariots they are a charge bonus.

Gazak Blacktoof
06-06-2008, 15:28
Not an answer to the question I asked unfortunately.

:rolleyes:


Chariots only get Impacts Hits when charging.

Therefore Impact Hits are a charge bonus for Chariots.

That doesn't mean they are a charge bonus for anything else, only that in respect to chariots they are a charge bonus.

Badda-bing!