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ravyn
03-06-2008, 17:08
Why are Dark Angels considered harder to win with than a regular marine group. they have the same troop choices and also have ravenwing. anyone know?
Vern

Culven
03-06-2008, 17:11
I have no idea. They are actually better than Space Marines in some respects.

==Me==
03-06-2008, 18:04
Listen to Culven he knows what he's saying.

DA are different form the current marines, so people have trouble wrapping their heads around it and label them weak instead of figuring it out. The new marine codex will bring them more in line with the DA, so we will have a head start ;)

DA have mostly the same units as marines, plus Deathwing, Ravenwing, Company Vets, and lots of Fearless units. Properly using all these is the way forward with DA. Pure DW, RW, battle company isn't going to be as competitive as a mix of two or all three. So take advantage of what DA offer and you'll see they work just fine and different from your typical marine army.

pepe5454
03-06-2008, 18:07
Well here are some of the differences.

They need to take 10 men to get a heavy weapon in a squad so no 6 man las plas squads.

They can only take 5 man terminator squads and they only can take 1 heavy weapon in that squad.

Many things in the codex compared to current vanilla marines are more costly powerfists and dreds and some other things (some are cheaper like Rhinos)

Comand squads can only be 5 man strong making them not worth it in allot of cases.

Librarians powers are kind of meh compared to others.

Lots of other small things like assault marines only the sarg getting melta and no flamers etc.

Those differences aside they can still be a very good army but it does require the player to work harder and think a bit more IMO particularly when facing vanilla marines.

TheMacDiesel
03-06-2008, 20:57
Vern -- there is an awesome D/A Tactica thread here on Warseer you might want to look up... excellent tips on how to run D/A armies to be had there.

In my six months experience running D/A (after years of running Tau, Space Wolves, etc) "pepe5454" is spot on -- they are a thinking player's Marine Chapter. I've had a blast with them; so much so I'm in the process of taking my 2000 pt collection up to a full Battle Company!

Good luck ...

exsulis
03-06-2008, 22:29
Just to link those mentioned threads
General DA http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86651
Deathwing http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24053
Ravenwing http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52938
Death Raven Combo http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72502

I'm going to disagree with a couple of the previous posters. There were/are a number of daft changes, and price increase that made several units really weak, and some ended up being no brainers.

Supposedly this codex was built with 5th ed in mind, and if that is true then even more of the changes are even dumber.

I wouldn't say having vets is vindicative of DA but ours are better at a basic level than the other marines until the new SM dex comes out. I also wouldn't call them the thinking player's chapter some have called it. They are still basic marines with a few basic twists, and a few hits from the nerf bat.

In my opinion the place where the DA got a whole lot better is in the basic Battle Company list. You've got scoring, decent movement, and a whole lot of firepower.

Ravenwing are the fast hitters but they are fragile, and you don't have a whole lot of them. However, they do make good scoring units but JJ has scene fit to remove attack bike squads because he felt like it.

DW well, if you try going all out with DW, you'll be in a world of disapointment for what you pay for a 5-man squad. I'd rather have scouts, or vets for the points you pay on such a tiny unit.

hush88
04-06-2008, 07:56
It is a matter of getting use to some of the differences between the DA codex and the current marine codex. The differences is enough to upset the manner in which you would build an army with the marine codex if you try to "port" the same list using the DA codex. So it does take a little bit of thinking, hence the common phrase "the thinking player's army".

On the other hand, once you are fine with the DA codex, trying with the BA codex is no matter at all.

Ambu
04-06-2008, 10:54
Hmmmmm, hardly ever lost a game when I played my DA soo not sure what you mean to be exact. Though I will agree with what has been said before, definately a thinking army, need to spend your points wisely and not get caught up in the frill.

Also agree to try to make a good blend in your army with the regular boys and RW and DW. I never really liked the Librarian in DA much but that was more fluff then anything. I see DA as a Zealot chapter so I always opted for a Chaplan over Librarians.

My mainstay was always a Force Commander, Chaplan, 1 Term squad (opted in a missle launcher there), Dreadnaught (lascannon), Bike squad (one model w/ sidecar a must), Land Speeder, 2 ten man Tact squads and a Dev squad all with missle launchers. Something else as well but its been a while, if I find my old notebook I'll post it.

Angelus Mortis
04-06-2008, 13:35
Hmmmmm, hardly ever lost a game when I played my DA soo not sure what you mean to be exact. Though I will agree with what has been said before, definately a thinking army, need to spend your points wisely and not get caught up in the frill.

Also agree to try to make a good blend in your army with the regular boys and RW and DW. I never really liked the Librarian in DA much but that was more fluff then anything. I see DA as a Zealot chapter so I always opted for a Chaplan over Librarians.

My mainstay was always a Force Commander, Chaplan, 1 Term squad (opted in a missle launcher there), Dreadnaught (lascannon), Bike squad (one model w/ sidecar a must), Land Speeder, 2 ten man Tact squads and a Dev squad all with missle launchers. Something else as well but its been a while, if I find my old notebook I'll post it.


I agree wholeheartedly. I've played give or take a dozen games with the new DA and only lost one game. And that was due to me fooling around with the list and trying something just for the sake of trying it (ie, I was experimenting). I actually think they are way easier to win with than standard Marines.

exsulis
06-06-2008, 18:11
Wow, the Dex has been out for over a year, and if you extrapolate that out. You're getting a game in once a month or so. :(

I'll give you my battle rating for the first 6 months after the dex came out:

Deathwing
W/L/D
0/64/7
Ravenwing
5/1/6
Battlecompany
137/27/73
(I stopped counting after that)

After two months, and a number of games I shelved my 60 some-odd terminators. My pre-4th edition win ratio with the DW was a 180 from what it is now. And my BC has only gotten better.

I would call the 3.5 edition 1kSons army a thinking army as you had to know a lot on how that army functioned to actually do well. The current dex isn't that hard to use though it can be a cluster F&*% at times when building a list.

Librarians had a place but by far I'd always go with a basic CC, and a chappy. The current Libi just isn't worth the HQ slot, neither is Zek.

The BA took me a whole 5 minutes to make a deadly list. It uses the some of the same limitations but those limitations are offset by their differences.

Okidus
06-06-2008, 21:01
bc you cant min/max a 6man las plas squad, its 10 or 5.
a hardy 10man squad in a rhino will be a lot tougher than a 6 man squad however.

The DAs and BAs were the first to get revamped, teh new SM is just behind in catchign up.

so saying one is better than the other is moot, one is just updated sooner than the other.

DAs and Marines sell. so they get the revamp first.

Deathwing is an incredibly hard army to play, on par w something like Daemonhunters. Very few units. very small margin for error.

Angelus Mortis
06-06-2008, 22:57
Wow, the Dex has been out for over a year, and if you extrapolate that out. You're getting a game in once a month or so. :(


Actually, I only played for about 3 months with my DA after the Codex came out. They have been temporarily put on hold as I am currently working on my 5200 pts of Death Korps (yes, I said 5200 pts) and thats consuming all of my time.

BattleSarge
06-06-2008, 23:34
If you want to talk about a challange, I run a pure Grey Knight army.

Ambu
07-06-2008, 00:03
If you want to talk about a challange, I run a pure Grey Knight army.

QFT :cheese:

Angelus Mortis
07-06-2008, 01:42
If you want to talk about a challange, I run a pure Grey Knight army.


QFT :cheese:


Actually, funny you should mention that. I also have about 6000 pts of Daemonhunters too. They have a very difficult learning curve, but once figured out they play very, very well. But I digress, not trying to hijack the thread.

Odd_Motorbike_Guy
07-06-2008, 02:03
blah blah blah
I'll give you my battle rating for the first 6 months after the dex came out:

Deathwing
W/L/D
0/64/7

blah blah blah

So what are you doing wrong?

I've played some 30 odd games with Deathwing since I started in January and can count the losses on 1 hand with fingers to spare (and I'm not a brilliant general).

A fair few draws, but the majority are wins. I think Deathwing changed [subtly, but] dramatically with the new codex and the previously accepted shoot and scoot is not the most effective form for them as you're ignoring the differences Deathwing have over regular marine terminators (mixed weapons, fearless, Banner/Apothecary, Troops).

To continue this discussion, PM's or the Deathwing Tactica should be your first stop (you'll see some of my batreps and tactica articles there).

sing Sang a song
07-06-2008, 02:24
My friend plays DA, and in my opinion they are one of the most well balanced SM chapter out here (better than BT, BA, and maybe vanilla marines). I enjoy playing with my friend because it is the most flexible army when combine all the wings.

ravyn
09-06-2008, 04:05
thanks for your replies. Ever since I bought my first marine I have painted them Dark Angel. The winged sword caught my attention and I have never looked back. I am restarting in 40k and painted my Macragge marines in DA colors. I always hear that DA were a tough army to play but we will see.

PumaKiller
09-06-2008, 04:56
I'm currently working on my Battle Company Dark Angels but I have played Ravenwing since the release of the codex and I've had some very good games with them. I have no idea what their record is (I don't really care to be honest). I've had some very big wins, lots of close games and couple big loses and that's fine with me. My aim isn't to go 30-0 it's to go 15-15. Forums can be bad for this but don't make an army expecting and hoping to win every bloody game. Some of the best games are the close ones win or lose. I play Dark Angels because I love the fluff and I love the look of them which sounds like you and that's all you need. Personally I think the hobby would be much better off if everyone's goal was to play a good close game irrespective of the result rather than only playing lists because they win more. Sure it's no fun to lose every game but what fun can it be to blow away your opponent every time too?

Mr Stu
09-06-2008, 15:07
I am a huge DA fan, always have been. One of the huge probs the current codex presents is that the deathwing do not get the extra attack for wearing termie armour.

This can hurt at times. My favourite compensator is putting an interrogator chaplin termie in with the CC termie squad. Thunder hammers, lightning claws and a crozius coupled with the litanies of hate on the charge gives you plenty of re rolls and becomes a CC monster squad!!

==Me==
09-06-2008, 15:09
I am a huge DA fan, always have been. One of the huge probs the current codex presents is that the deathwing do not get the extra attack for wearing termie armour.

They have 2 attacks like any other loyalist terminator, I wish they had 3 though;)