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View Full Version : So I got the High Elf army book after a long break from WHFB...



Magos Explorator
03-06-2008, 19:49
... to see how my army, which began with the figures in the 4th-edition boxset, would translate. (eBay's meant I can replace most of the badly-painted stuff for little extra outlay).

Am I correct in my reading that High Elves strike first in combat? That seems a little excessive... does it work ok in the game, or if I bring out my High Elf army is nobody going to want to play me? It seems fairly powerful with the double-handed weapons of the White Lions and Swordmasters, and the extra rank fighting of the spearmen.

My army consists mostly of the Citizen Levy troops, though I'm thinking of getting some Shadow Warriors too (as I always wanted some back in the day, and the new models are good). I notice the troops seem to have got cheaper since 4th edition (when an unarmed elf was 8 points); is an army of mostly archers and spearmen competitive?

Any thoughts on whether it's better to spend Rare choices on repeater bolt throwers, or eagles? In 4th edition flyers were pretty awesome and kind of necessary to save your own artillery from other flyers, so I'm a little sad that it seems to be a choice between these two units. Also, no more pegasi? :(

Finally, are any of the elite infantry--Swordmasters, White Lions, or Phoenix Guard--notably better than the others? The new models all look cool, though looking at the statblocks for the same points none of them particularly jump out. Perhaps I should stick to my Citizen levy for now. ;)

I hope to have a lot of painting time coming up at the end of the month, so may start a project log trying to speed-paint up the force!

Helbracht
03-06-2008, 20:03
High Elves are pretty...powerful right now, and yes ASF is excessive. But as long as you don't do something like taking multiple units of Swordmasters, then you shouldn't have a problem getting a game.

I'd use 1 rare slot for bolt throwers and 1 slot for eagles. Best of both worlds.

vinush
03-06-2008, 20:05
It's a case of apples and oranges with the specialist units, as they each do different things.

I prefer the fluff of PG, but rarely use them (I don't have enough of them) as I have lots of WL from when they had different fighting styles.

ASF is powerful, but not overly so, as you're still only S3 basic, and comparitively higher cost than a lot of other units out there that you'd likely face. Most opponents wouldn't charge into your spearmen unless they will benefit from it due to the rules of their weapons (e.g. Lances), and are more likely to let them charge as it's 5-7 less attacks to face from your unit. You will still find a lot of people willing to face you, and those that do survive will be up against your weakly armoured and T3 troops.

I tend to go levy heavy (that rhymes!) as I like the fluff of this too.

RBT's are preferable to Eagles, as you can just shoot out their artillery with them, and RBT's benefit from Curse of Arrow (which I think is still in there, not got my rules handy) which means concentrated fire can neutralise a unit per turn. I still remember the game where I took out a unit of Chosen knights first turn, and had another couple of turns unmolestered to deal with his RnF units.

All of this is just my opinion, however, and ultimately its up to you.

\/ince.

Condottiere
03-06-2008, 20:15
Am I correct in my reading that High Elves strike first in combat? That seems a little excessive... does it work ok in the game, or if I bring out my High Elf army is nobody going to want to play me? It seems fairly powerful with the double-handed weapons of the White Lions and Swordmasters, and the extra rank fighting of the spearmen.

Not as powerful as some HE players would like - the solution is either to tarpit them and/or flank them. HE can't bear attrition.


My army consists mostly of the Citizen Levy troops, though I'm thinking of getting some Shadow Warriors too (as I always wanted some back in the day, and the new models are good). I notice the troops seem to have got cheaper since 4th edition (when an unarmed elf was 8 points); is an army of mostly archers and spearmen competitive?

That would depend on the situation, but apparently phalanxes of Spears seem to do well, supported by fighty characters and flanked by elite infantry.


Any thoughts on whether it's better to spend Rare choices on repeater bolt throwers, or eagles? In 4th edition flyers were pretty awesome and kind of necessary to save your own artillery from other flyers, so I'm a little sad that it seems to be a choice between these two units. Also, no more pegasi? :(

RBT/GE half/half. Gives you a good shooting phase, and allows you to march block.


Finally, are any of the elite infantry--Swordmasters, White Lions, or Phoenix Guard--notably better than the others? The new models all look cool, though looking at the statblocks for the same points none of them particularly jump out. Perhaps I should stick to my Citizen levy for now. ;)

A lot of HE players are coming around the idea to use PG as anvils, DP as hammers.

Furthermore, HE players like wine a lot.;)

DragonPup
03-06-2008, 20:19
Any thoughts on whether it's better to spend Rare choices on repeater bolt throwers, or eagles? In 4th edition flyers were pretty awesome and kind of necessary to save your own artillery from other flyers, so I'm a little sad that it seems to be a choice between these two units. Also, no more pegasi? :(

I use both, as both are quite useful. For 50 points, Eagles are a steal. 100 point Bolt Throwers are still somewhat procey, but they have BS4, and the volley which helps the flexibility.


Finally, are any of the elite infantry--Swordmasters, White Lions, or Phoenix Guard--notably better than the others? The new models all look cool, though looking at the statblocks for the same points none of them particularly jump out. Perhaps I should stick to my Citizen levy for now. ;)

Swordmasters: Troop killers. Lots of S5 attacks that always hit first, high WS. Infantry blenders.

White Lions: Cav/Monster killers. Strike first, S6, Stubborn, Moves through Forests without penalty. For 25 points, the Lion Standard gives immunity to Fear and Terror to take on the really big things.

Phoenix Guard: Not killy, but more of a tarpit with Fear to possibily prevent a charge, and to blunt the enemies fear and terror causers. 4+ ward for the win. :D

Scallat
03-06-2008, 21:34
If anyone refuses to play you they're a *****. ASF is hardly game breaking in my experiance. White lions don't have enough attacks to really be scary with ASF, Sword Masters are terrifying in combat but are so fragile they'll rarely live to see it.

At the end of the day High Elves are still toughness 3 and mostly strength 3 they're good but far from unbeatable.

Emeraldw
03-06-2008, 21:50
If anyone refuses to play you they're a *****. ASF is hardly game breaking in my experiance. White lions don't have enough attacks to really be scary with ASF, Sword Masters are terrifying in combat but are so fragile they'll rarely live to see it.

At the end of the day High Elves are still toughness 3 and mostly strength 3 they're good but far from unbeatable.

My wood elves found ASF to be game breaking once :(

You would think 8 dryads in the front and 8 in the flank would be enough to down 15 spear men but they wounded and killed so man I lost :( yeah, I cursed ASF on that day. but taking 20 or more bows in a 750 point match seems wrong.

Gimp
03-06-2008, 21:55
I cant see any reason why people would refuse to play you. And if they do well then it most likely would not have been fun playing against them anyway.

Everbody complains about how over powered HE and VC are and now Deamons has been add to the list. While I agree that they are over powered (HE less so than the other 2) but I still love to play against them. I play DE and I always loose against HE and VC but I cant get enough out of playing against them. It has become my goal to beat them (1 day) and every lose makes me understand them better and is still a very fun game.

As for your army list the HE list is very compatable. You can field armies with loads of magic or shooting or citizen levy or elite troops or cavalry. You can even have 2 dragons :D

Welcome back to the game and I hope you enjoy yourself with your Elves

Oenghus
03-06-2008, 22:07
The thing you're going to have to watch out for, especially with Swordmasters and the like, is that people are aware of a group of SM's propensity for squelching any infantry they come up against -- and generally play accordingly. What I mean by that is that your nasty units tend to get shot at. A lot.

Once you get them into combat, you'll see the power of ASF. You'll find, though, that you end up getting a fairly small number of troopers into combat at all -- which is the weakness of the Elves, built in to counteract their strengths.

All in all, I'm of the camp that say that the High Elves are a strong but fair army, and usually a good fight.

Scallat
03-06-2008, 22:13
My wood elves found ASF to be game breaking once :(

You would think 8 dryads in the front and 8 in the flank would be enough to down 15 spear men but they wounded and killed so man I lost :( yeah, I cursed ASF on that day. but taking 20 or more bows in a 750 point match seems wrong.

That's odd. Dryads are toughness 4 right? And WS4 aswell. So 15 spearmen should get 16 attacks whichmeans 8 hits and 3 wounds if they're lucky. 5+ forest spirit wardsave means that you ought to save 1. 2 kills is the average. Statistically you should've won that combat and had him out numbered at the end of it. You were just unlucky I'm afraid.

Emeraldw
03-06-2008, 22:17
That's odd. Dryads are toughness 4 right? And WS4 aswell. So 15 spearmen should get 16 attacks whichmeans 8 hits and 3 wounds if they're lucky. 5+ forest spirit wardsave means that you ought to save 1. 2 kills is the average. Statistically you should've won that combat and had him out numbered at the end of it. You were just unlucky I'm afraid.

Yeah, I know the stats were on my side, but sadly stats don't work like that all the time :( Winning that was big for him, there were a few other things that game that didn't go my way (like a charge by wild riders against phoenix guard and a rear charge by waywatchers and them not breaking despite needing a 4 or less leadership). I hate losing to dice, I really do. Don't even ask me about that Eldar vs Black Templar game I had recently, son of a gun i've never seen so many 6+ saves.......

Scallat
03-06-2008, 22:23
I really think that losing to dice is part of the fun of the game. When your Tooled up chaos lord drops his sword I always think that it adds to the charm of table top gaming.

lilljonas
04-06-2008, 03:53
Yeah, I know the stats were on my side, but sadly stats don't work like that all the time :( Winning that was big for him, there were a few other things that game that didn't go my way (like a charge by wild riders against phoenix guard and a rear charge by waywatchers and them not breaking despite needing a 4 or less leadership). I hate losing to dice, I really do. Don't even ask me about that Eldar vs Black Templar game I had recently, son of a gun i've never seen so many 6+ saves.......

Wait, you admit you got diced, and still complain that the ASF rule was "game breaking" when it was the dice that screwed you over, not the rules themselves? This does not make sense.

kroq'gar
04-06-2008, 04:01
I curese ASF the day my skaven tunneling team charged a RBT... they killed two of my tunnelers, the remaining fled. He later rallied and flanked a regiment of archers strung out in single file- the one elf who could fight killed him.

Its at moments like that i think its stupid- no problem with it from the front- BUT its part of the army and part of the game. Deal with it or dont play (and i prefer to play).

Talonz
04-06-2008, 04:36
Wait, you admit you got diced, and still complain that the ASF rule was "game breaking" when it was the dice that screwed you over, not the rules themselves? This does not make sense.

You do realize of course that is the asf rule that gave the spearmen the chance to get those lucky dice to beat the dryads? Without asf, with even average dice rolls, the dryads would have had a far better outcome even against lucky dice, and probably won the combat that round.

Greymarch
04-06-2008, 06:55
I curese ASF the day my skaven tunneling team charged a RBT... they killed two of my tunnelers, the remaining fled. He later rallied and flanked a regiment of archers strung out in single file- the one elf who could fight killed him.

Its at moments like that i think its stupid- no problem with it from the front- BUT its part of the army and part of the game. Deal with it or dont play (and i prefer to play).

That pretty much made me rethink fielding a Clan Eshin list against HE anymore...

Alathir
04-06-2008, 09:58
ASF isn't game breaking at all, I wouldnt even call it overpowered. Oversimplified yes, but not OP. All it does is give HE troops a chance to stand up in combat because anyone who tried to field infantry based lists in 6th edition would tell you that spearmen couldn't hold against an orc sneezing.

Anyone who refuses to play you because of ASF is a ****** anyway.

lilljonas
04-06-2008, 10:10
You do realize of course that is the asf rule that gave the spearmen the chance to get those lucky dice to beat the dryads? Without asf, with even average dice rolls, the dryads would have had a far better outcome even against lucky dice, and probably won the combat that round.

I would hardly call "having very bad odds, but still not as crappy odds as without the rule" as broken, but that's me...

Mullitron
04-06-2008, 10:18
You do realize of course that is the asf rule that gave the spearmen the chance to get those lucky dice to beat the dryads? Without asf, with even average dice rolls, the dryads would have had a far better outcome even against lucky dice, and probably won the combat that round.

Asf gave the elves a chance to get the lucky dice rolls and win which they did in this instance, however that imop is the point of the rule. It doesnt allow the elves to win the fight everytime, but if luck goes there way it gives them more of an edge against there opponents. Without that luck the dyrads would of won easily however in this case the elves had a bit of luck and managed to beat them. Asf just gives high elves an edge over some of there opponents they had less of a chance against before. As said there still strength and toughness 3 with little armor, most armies can shoot and or use magic to weaken the elves units before combat and if there an army with no shooting or magic they usualy have powerful close combat units to be able to take the elves on in combat at full strength.

Magos Explorator
04-06-2008, 11:57
Woah, a lot of replies. :) Glad that my force should fit with minimal tweaking! Perhaps I should go for White Lions for my elite infantry, given I don't have too much else to take on heavily armoured foes.

Talonz
04-06-2008, 16:16
I would hardly call "having very bad odds, but still not as crappy odds as without the rule" as broken, but that's me...

As you like, but that is unrelated to what you originally said. You said the fact that the dice beat him was unrelated to the rule, which is not the case at all here.

Finnigan2004
04-06-2008, 18:50
I think that what he actually said was that being unlucky once does not make the rule game breaking, which is correct.

Kahadras
04-06-2008, 19:12
IMHO ASF, while annoying, works quite well for the HE. My main gripe is the fact that it works on everything. Great weapons become a no brainer for fighting characters but my main annoyance is with troops like RBT crew and archers. With ASF these guys can cause real problems for flanking units designed to take down support units. Archers are really nasty when they stand and shoot

My friend whose using HE at the moment highly rates Spearmen and Phoenix Guard. The Guard can take a lot of punnishment and the Spearmen are dangerous in combat with their ASF massed attacks.

Kahadras

isidril93
04-06-2008, 19:22
high elves are not that over powered...sure the have asf but they are still expensive

a unit of 15 swordmaster with comand and banner of sorcery(which helps when you if you like magic) still costs 300 points

they are still a t3 army and so can still be beaten

Talonz
04-06-2008, 19:41
Asf gave the elves a chance to get the lucky dice rolls and win which they did in this instance, however that imop is the point of the rule.

No doubt. The problem is in its armywide application, which results in severe imbalances against T3 minimal AS opponents. I basically retired my goblin army because of that (well that and animostiy) and continue to be frustrated by my fast cavs inability to see off HE archers and the like (even in rear charges!).


As said there still strength and toughness 3 with little armor,

Plenty of great weapons in most HE armies I see (best 'magic' weapon in a HE list now...), or 3 ranks of spears...


most armies can shoot and or use magic to weaken the elves units before combat and if there an army with no shooting or magic they usualy have powerful close combat units to be able to take the elves on in combat at full strength.

Yes, lets encourage more gunlines, chariots, magic missiles...so those HE swordmasters and the like dont get to fight anyways.

And frankly my minos have a real problem dislodging them, not much point in mv 6 if charging doesnt matter anymore.

Anways, this is all old news, but essentially ASF was slapped on as a bandaid solution and its showing faults because of that.

EvC
04-06-2008, 21:54
Yeah, I know the stats were on my side, but sadly stats don't work like that all the time :(

The stats weren't on your side. 9 Dryads get into contact, 2 kills from the Spearmen, leaving 7 Dryads to attack back, do 3 kills. +1 for flank gives you CR of 4, whereas the Elves get +5 static and 2 kills. On an average combat round, the High Elves win by 3. Without ASF, the Dryads should kill 5, get 1 for flank, and lose 1- so the High Elves win with a musician. ASF just underlines it.

Finnigan2004
05-06-2008, 01:09
I'm not sure how you get the +5 static CR EvC, the flank attack should negate the rank bonuses if you have factored that in.

EvC
05-06-2008, 02:05
Why don't you work it out yourself and get back to me? ;)

(Hint: Dryads are SKIRMISHERS)

Finnigan2004
05-06-2008, 05:18
You are right-- brain freeze in the theoryhammer. Thanks for the correction. Assuming that the high elves have a musician, that gives them 1, they also get three ranks. and the dryads have a flank and outnumber according to the post? That leaves the high elves up by two to start.