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Rodman49
03-06-2008, 23:48
So after playing several Fantasy games (and looking at tournament lists) it seems like armies fall into several tiers (I'm not saying that any army is particularly inferior to another - everyone always gives the comment that "Any army can beat any other army"). So how would you tier the armies? Some general things I thought that separated the armies were . . .

- Win/Loss Ratio in games played
- Ease in planning and executing battleplan
- Ability to combat wide range of armies with single list

Post your tier list and we'll compile the results. Here is the first compilation (numbers indicate average tier):

Tier One - Highest Tier
Vampire Counts (1.09)
High Elves (1.36)
Bretonnia (1.45)
Wood Elves (1.45)

Tier Two - Upper Tier
Daemons of Chaos (1.73)
Dwarves (1.91)
Lizardmen (2.00)
Empire (2.27)

Tier Three - Middle Tier
Skaven (2.36)
Tomb Kings (2.82)
Beasts of Chaos (3.18)
Warriors of Chaos (3.18)

Tier Four - Lower Tier
Dark Elves (3.36)
Orcs & Goblins (3.45)
Ogre Kingdoms (3.55)

Standard Deviations
Vampire Counts (Lowest at 0.3)
Ogre Kingdoms (Highest at 1.04)

Would you tier things any differently? Would you even tier armies at all? Are there specific lists within armies that high tier, even though the army itself is not?

Arguleon-veq
04-06-2008, 00:10
1;
High Elves
Vampire Counts,
Brets,
Maybe Wood Elves.

2;
Daemons,
Skaven,
Dwarfs,
Lizardmen.

3;
Warriors,
Empire,
Beats,
Tomb Kings.

4;
Ogres,
Orcs and Gobs,
Dark Elves.

MalusCalibur
04-06-2008, 00:20
NOOOOOOOOO!
For the love of all that is good and holy, DON'T bring Tiers into WH!
All they ever do is spawn pointless arguments and create rifts between players.


MalusCalibur

Phazael
04-06-2008, 00:30
T1-
Vampire Counts
Empire
Daemons
High Elves

T2-
Brettonians
Tomb Kings
Wood Elves
Lizard Men

T3-
Orcs and Goblins
Dwarves
Dogs of War
Chaos Dwarves
Skaven

T4-
Dark Elves
Mortals of Chaos
Beasts of Chaos
Ogre Kingdoms

A lot depends on what people take, but strictly speaking on what a given list is capable of, thats how I see it (and the hardboyz results seem to share my opinion) currently.

Scallat
04-06-2008, 00:32
In 6 weeks dark elves will be in the highest tier. In 6 months so will warriors of chaos. In 2 years time high elves and demons will be near the bottom. This is the way the system works.

kaintxu
04-06-2008, 00:50
Why do you recon brets and wood elves are high tiers?

TheDarkDuke
04-06-2008, 01:09
Tier One
Bretonnia
High Elves
Vampire Counts

Tier Two
Daemons of Chaos
Ogre Kingdoms
Empire
Skaven
Wood Elves
Dwarves

Tier Three
Lizardmen
Tomb Kings
Dark Elves
Beasts of Chaos

Tier Four
Orcs and Goblins
Warriors of Chaos

This is based off of a bunch of ranks of top players that have been posted around, and peoples results from GT Heats. It is pretty much the older books are on the lower scale of things if the only exception being O&G and Bretonnia.

As for specific lists bringing an army up in standings, yes that is the case. As it is right now Lizardmen would jump if you do the whole skink army/magic. Dark Elf gunline would jump a tier. Wood Elf Tree army and Dwarf Gunline would jump.

Shamfrit
04-06-2008, 01:26
NOOOOOOOOO!
For the love of all that is good and holy, DON'T bring Tiers into WH!
All they ever do is spawn pointless arguments and create rifts between players.


MalusCalibur

Won the thread, now close it, before somebody accuses Warseer of being dreary and whiney :o

pwrgmrguard
04-06-2008, 01:30
How do you think mortal based chaos stacks up if it uses the old book and not the magazine aritcle?

TheDarkDuke
04-06-2008, 01:34
How do you think mortal based chaos stacks up if it uses the old book and not the magazine aritcle?

Dead in the water.

will be trying a game with the WD soon... but I get the impression that they are still dead in the water until the actual army book.

fubukii
04-06-2008, 04:31
i think this tier stuff is silly, Ive been insanely successful with my skaven beating so called "top tier" armies like New vc, New daemons, Brets, ANd new high elves. They all have their weaknesses, but who knows myabe skaven are just well off with their rules vs those armies.

if i had to rate

top tier
Empire
vc
Daemons

tier 2
Skaven
brets
wood elves
HE
ogres
dwarves
warriors of chaos
beasts
lizzy
tk in 2k+ games
orcs

tier 3
dark elves.
tk in low pt games

Shimmergloom
04-06-2008, 05:00
Tier 1:

1. Bretonnia
2. Wood Elves
3. Vampire Counts
4. Daemons
5. Skaven

Tier 2:

6. High Elves
7. Lizardmen
8. Tomb Kings(old book, but they still get to ignore psyche and ignore the new magic dice power pool rules).
9. Dwarfs
10. Beasts of Chaos(skirmishing is still a huge deal because of the terrible terrain rules).
11. Ogres

Tier 3:

12. Empire(12 here, but 10-12 are arguably equal on this list)
13. Chaos Dwarfs(ld 9 heroes, 20pt hobogoblin units and the earthshaker puts this just above greenskins)
14. Orcs and Goblins
15. Dogs of War
16. Mortals: if rumors hold true, they should be around dwarf level when their book is released.
17. Dark Elves: if rumors hold true, they should be solidly in the 2nd tier soon.

ehlijen
04-06-2008, 05:03
Tier 1:

All of those with official books

Tier 2:

Those without books and only age old web books

Gazak Blacktoof
04-06-2008, 08:01
If you're basing any of this on the 'ardboyz results then you have to bear in mind that the games are played at an a-typically high points value. That produces different result.

Certain armies get increasingly better or worse dependant on the points value.

Kerill
04-06-2008, 08:59
Hmm, I would go for

Tier One - Highest Tier
Bretonnia
Vampire Counts
High Elves
Wood Elves

Tier Two - Upper Tier

Daemons of Chaos
Empire
Lizardmen

Tier Three - Middle Tier

Orcs and Goblins
Tomb Kings
Skaven
Dwarves (without Thorek)

Tier Four - Lower Tier
Dark Elves
Ogre Kingdoms
Warriors of Chaos
Beasts of Chaos

Lordsaradain
04-06-2008, 10:11
Tier Two - Upper Tier
Bretonnia
High Elves
Wood Elves
Dwarves
Vampire Counts

Tier Three - Middle Tier

Daemons of Chaos
Empire
Lizardmen
Skaven

Tier Four - Lower Tier
Dark Elves
Ogre Kingdoms
Tomb Kings
Orcs and Goblins
Warriors of Chaos
Beasts of Chaos

vesp
04-06-2008, 10:18
Great, another one of these threads where nobody will bother to read 90% of the replies before posting their opinions. Including this one :p

Kerill
04-06-2008, 10:40
And where people named vesp can boost their post count :)

Rubicon
04-06-2008, 11:29
I think it goes something like this:

Tier 1:
Dark Elves
Warriors of Chaos
Daemons of Chaos
Vampire Counts
Dwarves

Tier 2:
Empire
High Elves
Wood Elves

Tier 3:
Brettonia
Tomb Kings

Tier 4:
O&G
Dogs of War
Beasts of Chaos

Tier 127.168870912
Ogre Kingdoms

That's based on fluff and enjoyability, rather than power levels though

Ixquic
04-06-2008, 11:37
Top Tier:
Armies that beat me.

Middle Tier:
Armies I can beat.

Bottom Tier:
Armies I play.


Think that covers this pretty well.

vesp
04-06-2008, 12:21
And where people named vesp can boost their post count :)

That's essentially what threads like this are mate, I just decided not to spend 5mins rating armies that beat me all the time, that beat me half the time, and that I beat all the time.

kk

StormCrow
04-06-2008, 14:06
Tier 1

GREEN IZ BEST

Tier 2

DAT STUFF DAT WILL BE GREEN

Tier 3

DAT STUFF DAT AINT GREEN

Atropos
04-06-2008, 14:11
Tier One - Highest Tier
Dwarves
Lizardmen
Vampire Counts
Wood Elves

Tier Two - Upper Tier
Empire
High Elves
Bretonnia
Daemons of Chaos

Tier Three - Middle Tier
Beasts of Chaos
Skaven
Tomb Kings
Warriors of Chaos

Tier Four - Lower Tier
Dark Elves
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs and Goblins

vesp
04-06-2008, 15:20
Tier One - Highest Tier
Dwarves
Lizardmen
Vampire Counts
Wood Elves
Empire
High Elves
Bretonnia
Daemons of Chaos
Beasts of Chaos
Skaven
Tomb Kings
Warriors of Chaos
Dark Elves
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs and Goblins

Tier Two - Upper Tier

Dwarves
Lizardmen
Vampire Counts
Wood Elves
Empire
High Elves
Bretonnia
Daemons of Chaos
Beasts of Chaos
Skaven
Tomb Kings
Warriors of Chaos
Dark Elves
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs and Goblins

Tier Three - Middle Tier

Dwarves
Lizardmen
Vampire Counts
Wood Elves
Empire
High Elves
Bretonnia
Daemons of Chaos
Beasts of Chaos
Skaven
Tomb Kings
Warriors of Chaos
Dark Elves
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs and Goblins

Tier Four - Lower Tier

Dwarves
Lizardmen
Vampire Counts
Wood Elves
Empire
High Elves
Bretonnia
Daemons of Chaos
Beasts of Chaos
Skaven
Tomb Kings
Warriors of Chaos
Dark Elves
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs and Goblins


The exact order depends on who is playing them, and who they're playing against.

ta
__________________

isidril93
04-06-2008, 19:59
Tier One - Highest Tier
Dwarves
Lizardmen
Vampire Counts
Wood Elves
Empire
High Elves
Bretonnia
Daemons of Chaos
Beasts of Chaos
Skaven
Tomb Kings
Warriors of Chaos
Dark Elves
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs and Goblins

Tier Two - Upper Tier

Dwarves
Lizardmen
Vampire Counts
Wood Elves
Empire
High Elves
Bretonnia
Daemons of Chaos
Beasts of Chaos
Skaven
Tomb Kings
Warriors of Chaos
Dark Elves
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs and Goblins

Tier Three - Middle Tier

Dwarves
Lizardmen
Vampire Counts
Wood Elves
Empire
High Elves
Bretonnia
Daemons of Chaos
Beasts of Chaos
Skaven
Tomb Kings
Warriors of Chaos
Dark Elves
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs and Goblins

Tier Four - Lower Tier

Dwarves
Lizardmen
Vampire Counts
Wood Elves
Empire
High Elves
Bretonnia
Daemons of Chaos
Beasts of Chaos
Skaven
Tomb Kings
Warriors of Chaos
Dark Elves
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs and Goblins


The exact order depends on who is playing them, and who they're playing against.

ta
__________________

that is 100% true

sure some armies can beat others easily but i was still beaten by dark elves last week with my supposedly 'tier 1' high elves.

lilljonas
05-06-2008, 00:06
that is 100% true

sure some armies can beat others easily but i was still beaten by dark elves last week with my supposedly 'tier 1' high elves.

If that was true, every army would be represented among the top 3 at GTs etc. I can't say I've heard of that many Beastman or Dark Elf GT winners.

Tiers are not "automatic winners vs everything", more a objective view of which armies do better in very competitive surroundings. Some armies do claim more than their share of tournament wins and usually places above the average result, and so they are a higher tier army, simple as that. Brets do well more often than 1/16th of the time, after all.

Rodman49
05-06-2008, 01:19
If that was true, every army would be represented among the top 3 at GTs etc. I can't say I've heard of that many Beastman or Dark Elf GT winners.

Tiers are not "automatic winners vs everything", more a objective view of which armies do better in very competitive surroundings. Some armies do claim more than their share of tournament wins and usually places above the average result, and so they are a higher tier army, simple as that. Brets do well more often than 1/16th of the time, after all.

Exactly. I've compiled the lists from the first few posts. Here are the averages (number equals average ranking where highest tier = 1 (lowest = 4)):

Beasts of Chaos 3.18
Bretonnia 1.45
Daemons of Chaos 1.73
Dark Elves 3.36
Dwarfs 1.91
Empire 2.27
High Elves 1.36
Lizardmen 2.00
Ogre Kingdoms 3.55
Orcs & Goblins 3.45
Skaven 2.36
Tomb Kings 2.82
Vampire Counts 1.09
Warriors of Chaos 3.18
Wood Elves 1.45

I'll update the first post. Noticeably Vampire Counts was ranked highest in all but one list. Standard deviations were lowest for Vampire Counts and High Elves and highest for Ogres and Warriors of Chaos (which means they had the most variation in rankings).

Mercules
27-07-2008, 21:40
Standard deviations were lowest for Vampire Counts and High Elves and highest for Ogres and Warriors of Chaos (which means they had the most variation in rankings).

This would be because if you understand how to play Ogres you can do well, if you have no clue you will probably loose. They don't play like many of the armies out there or like you would expect them to play.

Hiratu
27-07-2008, 22:08
It also depends on how popular an army is. The more people who play a certain army in tournaments the higher the chances of that army placing in the top spots.

Condottiere
28-07-2008, 01:02
Great, another one of these threads where nobody will bother to read 90% of the replies before posting their opinions. Including this one :pYou're mistaken, much to my regret.


And where people named vesp can boost their post count :)You have to start somewhere.


It also depends on how popular an army is. The more people who play a certain army in tournaments the higher the chances of that army placing in the top spots.So where's DoW? Oh wait, now I remember ...:)

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
28-07-2008, 01:49
The newer an army the better it is.

The Red Scourge
28-07-2008, 14:09
The newer an army the better it is.

As the less experience an opponent has of beating it, and the harder it is to pinpoint its weaknesses. :rolleyes:

Then of course the new armies are streamlined for a new rules set, and has no conflicts with the base rules e.g. "beastmen raiders", and follow new trends like shields and weaponry for BSBs.

But the serious brokenness of new armies is nothing I can recognize. Bloodthirsters has always been superior fighters, Dark Elves has always been good at protecting their otherwise puny fighter lords and special characters has always suffered from too much love from their creator.

So you work around these kinks. If you can't tool up to kill a general, then don't. Go for the easy VP and avoid the rest.

blackspring
28-07-2008, 14:42
That's essentially what threads like this are mate, I just decided not to spend 5mins rating armies that beat me all the time, that beat me half the time, and that I beat all the time.


And when you have a group of people rating the same army as "beats me all the time" you have a consensus. There seems to be a trend in that the new army books are in the top tier for pretty much all rated tiers. This says something- that people are having problems beating the newest books.


As the less experience an opponent has of beating it, and the harder it is to pinpoint its weaknesses.

But the serious brokenness of new armies is nothing I can recognize. Bloodthirsters has always been superior fighters, Dark Elves has always been good at protecting their otherwise puny fighter lords and special characters has always suffered from too much love from their creator.

So you work around these kinks. If you can't tool up to kill a general, then don't. Go for the easy VP and avoid the rest.

Tell you what--play the new dark elf book against the old dark elf book, or the new VC book against the old one, or the newest high elf book against the old one, and then repeat your above statement again and see if you can say this with a straight face.

Rodman49
28-07-2008, 20:39
The newer an army the better it is.

Not necessarily - Brets and Wood Elves are still top tier; while Orcs and Empire are surely under their tier. On the other hand I would gamble that the majority of players would say Daemons, HE, and VC are significantly better than the new Dark Elves.

kyussinchains
28-07-2008, 22:54
Not necessarily - Brets and Wood Elves are still top tier; while Orcs and Empire are surely under their tier. On the other hand I would gamble that the majority of players would say Daemons, HE, and VC are significantly better than the new Dark Elves.

I wouldn't say HE are now significantly better than the new DE, I'm anticipating very good matchups between them myself, with eternal hatred and the terrifying pendant of khaleth :rolleyes: as well as the new assassins and black guard they stand a fighting chance

I've got no argument with your VE and DoC comments however

blackspring
28-07-2008, 23:14
On the other hand I would gamble that the majority of players would say Daemons, HE, and VC are significantly better than the new Dark Elves.

True. The new Dark Elf book is easily the weakest on a competitive level of the newest books--this flies in the face of those who believe that power creep is some kind of paranoid ranting and whining, or that all armies have the same chances of winning.

The sad fact is, I have to play and roll consistently better than my opponent who plays VC in order to just pull a draw. Warhammer equals a game where the better skilled player is handicapped by the inability of the game designers to build a balanced system = frustrating.

Conotor
28-07-2008, 23:25
Top Tier:
Armies that beat me.

Middle Tier:
Armies I can beat.

Bottom Tier:
Armies I play.


Lol, that truly made me laugh.

IMO:

Armies I find hard 2 beat:
Vampires
O&G
Brettonians

Armies I find ballenced:
High Elves
Lizzards (My army)

Armies I find easy 2 beat:
Wood Elves (Only played them once)
Dark Elves (Haven't played 7th ed)
Ogers

Helblaster_of_Sigmar
29-07-2008, 07:00
Well, as for Empire it really depends on what kind of army you are taking. 2 STanks, a Pimpmobile and a buncha knights and shooting? Tier One. The kind of list I bring to the table? Probably more like Tier 2.

El Haroldo
29-07-2008, 09:18
I like the way the theoryhammer players have decided that as there's not the same abundance of no-brainer point and click combo's a la VC/Daemons in the new DE book that they must be crap and aren't on the same 'tier'.

My first game with the new DE book was a convincing massacre against a 12PD VC army.

AngelofSorrow
29-07-2008, 09:46
This is wrong on so many levels. All I can do is shake my head.

blackspring
29-07-2008, 15:33
I like the way the theoryhammer players have decided that as there's not the same abundance of no-brainer point and click combo's a la VC/Daemons in the new DE book that they must be crap and aren't on the same 'tier'.

My first game with the new DE book was a convincing massacre against a 12PD VC army.

That's hardly the point.

The point is, when you take two equally skilled opponents, the game is decided by the more powerful army book and NOT tactics. And to point out that I'm not theorizing, I've played more than a few games. Of course I can still win against VC, that's not what people are talking about, it's just that with DE I have to outplay and out-roll my opponents just to pull a draw. I have to play exceptionally better than a VC opponent to pull a win (sorry if I can't play exceptionally well every single game)--so when playing against a decently competent player, then balance is an issue.

Emeraldw
29-07-2008, 15:37
I wouldn't say HE are now significantly better than the new DE, I'm anticipating very good matchups between them myself, with eternal hatred and the terrifying pendant of khaleth :rolleyes: as well as the new assassins and black guard they stand a fighting chance

I've got no argument with your VE and DoC comments however

I am still not convinced about daemons being over the top but Vampire counts.....yeah, I really hate that army.

There are tiers, however those tiers get mixed up when you start considering certain lists. Like a Skragg Ogre List. But to do tiers, we need something more solid to determine it rather than opinions.

superduperkoopatrooper
29-07-2008, 17:10
I agree Emeraldw, you can't talk about relative power of armies without specifying that you're only considering the most successful lists. From what I've heard from tournaments in recent months, Empire, Daemons and VCs appear to be the most successful at the moment. I'm fully expecting the GT heats to be totally inundated with daemons.

That said, brets, HEs, skaven, Thorek and WEs all have proven track records at tournaments as well. I guess they're just not used so much anymore for being relatively old but can still hold their own.

I'd rate all the above armies (as well as DEs now probably) as tier 1 and all the rest as tier 2.

Mercules
29-07-2008, 17:12
I am still not convinced about daemons being over the top but Vampire counts.....yeah, I really hate that army.

There are tiers, however those tiers get mixed up when you start considering certain lists. Like a Skragg Ogre List. But to do tiers, we need something more solid to determine it rather than opinions.

Tournament stats won't work either. The people who go to the tournament might lean towards certain armies and certain lists and the army as an overall played thing in general isn't the same as what is represented there. Not even talking about power vrs fluff soft lists. Talking about the difference between bringing 6 scrolls and 2.

Malorian
29-07-2008, 17:24
It is my firm belief that if you took every possible army list from each book, and had them used by every possible type of player, against every other possible army list from each book, and had them used by every possible type of player, that the records would be pretty much the same.

There are things you can do to optimize your list to your play style, but lists alone don't win you battles.


Another note on tournament stats, some armies are just plain expensive (such as all infantry empire) so that even though they are really effective you don't see them in tournaments.

For a 40k example, godzilla nid armies are farily cheap and easy to put together cash and time wise. If this wasn't so, and carnifex's cost $150 each, you can bet their tournament stats would fall dramaticly.

Peril
29-07-2008, 20:57
T1

VC
Demons

T2

Tzeentch / Khorne Mortal
Tzeentch / Khorne Beasts
HE
DE
WE
Dwarf
Brets
Lizardmen
Empire
Skaven
Tomb Kings

T3

Ogres
Orcs
Nurgle / Slaanesh Mortal
Nurgle / Slaanesh Beast

ewar
30-07-2008, 09:20
I like the way the theoryhammer players have decided that as there's not the same abundance of no-brainer point and click combo's a la VC/Daemons in the new DE book that they must be crap and aren't on the same 'tier'.

My first game with the new DE book was a convincing massacre against a 12PD VC army.

Agreed. Its a much more subtle book (I haven't seen the daemon one yet) but I lost to DE at the weekend for the first time... ever I think. Normally my brets steamroller fragile DE.

Eternal hatred is a really, really good rule. Better than ASF I think, as the number of attacks they get combined with generally high WS means they're hitting with nearly all their attacks.

He did have 4 monsters though, so that is my defence :)

I think DE in the hands of a skilled opponent (much the same as woodies) will be a fearsome army to beat.

As for the main topic: I'm going to sit on the fence. Its no use tiering the armies into 4 categories. 2 is probably more realistic, as some lists (OK, TK, O&G) are definitely weaker, whereas most lists have a power build that can be a complete sod to play against.

Crazy Harborc
30-07-2008, 20:07
Armies I prefer to push would be Tier one. Armies I do not care to push would be Tier 2

Tier One.......all the armies not listed in Tier Two.;)


Tier Two........Demons, Beastie boys, Skaven, Ogres, Chaos Dwarves,