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Rubicon
04-06-2008, 11:25
Is it only flaming attacks and killing blow that you aren't allowed to regenerate or is there a more comprehensive list?

If it is just flaming and KB it seems a bit OTT....Like a second ward save.

logan054
04-06-2008, 11:27
yes it is just flamming and KB, still that means its no use against black knights, grave guard, khorne daemons, many magic weapons, Tzeentch daemons, dragon breath, lore of fire, lore of metal (i believe) just to name a few.

Braad
04-06-2008, 11:44
Why is it over the top?
For Trolls, it is often their only save (except for stone trolls). I should think models that have a great AS, WS and also regeneration are OTT. Not the regeneration itself.

But it tends to be good, yes, in most situations you half the amount of wounds taken, but its always been like that.

The Clairvoyant
04-06-2008, 12:11
Regenerate is meant to be a thorn in your side, but with 7th ed, along with an increase in the number of regenerating things, there is also a big increase in flaming attacks availability

Spirit
04-06-2008, 14:04
You know i never noticed that killing blow ignored it! Handy to know.

The Clairvoyant
04-06-2008, 17:39
You know i never noticed that killing blow ignored it! Handy to know.

Nor did I!

I suppose it makes sense. It takes a while to regenerate a head after the last one has been cut off :D

logan054
04-06-2008, 17:43
It would be better if the bit about killing blow was with regen rather than killing blow, meh

isidril93
04-06-2008, 19:56
Killing blow would only count when you roll a six so you have to roll a six in order to negate it.

Aurellis
04-06-2008, 20:05
Killing blow would only count when you roll a six so you have to roll a six in order to negate it.

Executioners make mincemeat of Regeneration tooled characters, no problem for the DE with all their killing blow attacks :D

Disciple of Nagash
04-06-2008, 21:02
Can I just check as I've never clarified the regen rule:

If hit by a flaming attack is regen negated fror the rest of the battle of just that attack?
If negated for the rest of the battle does it count if you wasn't wounded but just hit
and if a regen unit gets hit does the whole unit lose regen or just the hurt models?

theunwantedbeing
04-06-2008, 21:10
Regen used to be negated for the entirity of the battle if you suffered a wound from a flaming attack.
This rule no longer exists.

In the case of a unit only the models slain would be unable to regenerate so the unit would still get it, but this is of no consequence as the rule doesnt exist anymore.

logan054
04-06-2008, 21:22
Killing blow would only count when you roll a six so you have to roll a six in order to negate it.

Of course however if you roll that 6 then armour save and you only need the one, its usually ok with a khorne hero/lord :) what about black knights, white king, grave guard, bloodletter, bloodcrusher, bloodthirster with axe ;) im sure they can get a few 6's between them ;)

Loopstah
04-06-2008, 21:24
Can I just check as I've never clarified the regen rule:

If hit by a flaming attack is regen negated fror the rest of the battle of just that attack?
If negated for the rest of the battle does it count if you wasn't wounded but just hit
and if a regen unit gets hit does the whole unit lose regen or just the hurt models?

If you have regeneration, then if hit by a flaming attack you don't get the regeneration save. You still get your armour save / ward save if applicable.

Regeneration doesn't actually give you back wounds or anything, it's just an extra ward save that applies to all non flaming attacks.

Spirit
04-06-2008, 21:55
Of course however if you roll that 6 then armour save and you only need the one, its usually ok with a khorne hero/lord :) what about black knights, white king, grave guard, bloodletter, bloodcrusher, bloodthirster with axe ;) im sure they can get a few 6's between them ;)

Ward save, you don't get armour saves when someone rolls said 6.

logan054
04-06-2008, 22:03
Ward save, you don't get armour saves when someone rolls said 6.

and what ward save are we talking about here, oh wait, regen, and what dosnt regen work against? KILLING BLOW, if you are going to try and correct me in future then please use correct information and prhaps glance at the topic title so as to get a rough idea of the contect of a post ;)

Aurellis
04-06-2008, 22:20
Just a quick question about killing blow in response to the thread, I've always assumed you get your ward save against killing blow, is this really the case?

Jonke
04-06-2008, 22:22
Ward save yes, but not armour save or regeneration.

Braad
05-06-2008, 08:10
and what ward save are we talking about here, oh wait, regen, and what dosnt regen work against? KILLING BLOW, if you are going to try and correct me in future then please use correct information and prhaps glance at the topic title so as to get a rough idea of the contect of a post ;)

No, regeneration is NOT a ward save, it is something totally different.

Anyway, if I read your original post now, I also get the feeling that you want to stop a killing blow with an armour save. If not, please explain further what it is you wish to say in that post.

To sum up, against killing blow:
Armour save: no
Ward save: yes
Regeneration save: no

decker_cky
05-06-2008, 08:20
No, regeneration is NOT a ward save, it is something totally different.

Correction...it is a ward save with a few exceptions. ;)

Condottiere
05-06-2008, 08:32
Correction...it is a ward save with a few exceptions. ;)

It has a similar effect as a ward safe.

Terms and conditions - this warranty is null and void in the event of contact with a flaming object, such object having the following properties ...


;)

Lordmonkey
05-06-2008, 08:43
It's just Killing Blow and Flaming attacks that negate a regeneration save. This isn't to say that GW won't (or haven't, i'm not sure!) release some unit type, rule or something else that is able to negate regeneration saves in it's own way, but in that case it will be specified for that unit rather than in the main rules.

T10
05-06-2008, 10:00
Is it only flaming attacks and killing blow that you aren't allowed to regenerate or is there a more comprehensive list?

If it is just flaming and KB it seems a bit OTT....Like a second ward save.

That's pretty much it.

If there are any other effects that ignore regeneration then this is specified in the effect description. For example, a magical sword could have the description "Regeneration cannot save against wounds caused by this sword", which would be suffiecient even if the flaming nor killing blow are involved in the attack.

That being said, I know of no such items as would specifically negate regeneration excepting effects that negate saves altogether.

-T10

logan054
05-06-2008, 13:10
No, regeneration is NOT a ward save, it is something totally different.

Anyway, if I read your original post now, I also get the feeling that you want to stop a killing blow with an armour save. If not, please explain further what it is you wish to say in that post.

To sum up, against killing blow:
Armour save: no
Ward save: yes
Regeneration save: no

Actually it is a ward save, the rule actually states it a ward save with a few exceptions ;) if you want to pathetic about the exact wording thats your choice. You feel i want to stop killingblow with a armour save, are you smoking crack or something, my favorite item axe of Khorne?

Im guessing you cam to that conclusion the same way you came to the conclusion that regen isnt a wardsave...


It has a similar effect as a ward safe.

Terms and conditions - this warranty is null and void in the event of contact with a flaming object, such object having the following properties ...


;)

No wonder you people manager to argue about every rule on the damn book

BloodiedSword
05-06-2008, 13:43
logan054 - Not to be nitpicky, but, er..


Regeneration saves are not ward saves

Feel free to check out the rest of that paragraph to confirm that I am not quoting out of context :)

Loopstah
05-06-2008, 13:47
Feel free to check out the rest of that paragraph to confirm that I am not quoting out of context :)

The tricky bit is "Regeneration works exactly like a 4+ ward save, with the following exceptions"

It's like a ward save in regards to that it isn't modified in any way by a weapons strength or ability to negate armour saves.

It isn't a ward save in regards to the fact you can also use it with a ward save.

Condottiere
05-06-2008, 14:14
Am I being quoted out of context?:eek:

Tyrion is the perfect example of what happens when you mix regeneration with ward save (and being fire-proof, all he has to worry about is KB).

:cool:

Oenghus
05-06-2008, 14:26
Killing Blow only works against regenerating man-sized targets though, right? Given that larger targets are immune to killing blow. Or are they only immune to the "no armour, I take all your wounds" bit of it?

Loopstah
05-06-2008, 14:33
Killing Blow only works against regenerating man-sized targets though, right? Given that larger targets are immune to killing blow. Or are they only immune to the "no armour, I take all your wounds" bit of it?

If you roll a 6 against something immune to killing blow then it just counts as a normal roll to wound and can be saved as normal.

logan054
05-06-2008, 14:34
logan054 - Not to be nitpicky, but, er..



Feel free to check out the rest of that paragraph to confirm that I am not quoting out of context :)

Pedantic then ;) as i said, no wonder the rules forum is full of question if people will balantly nit pick the most trival and pointless of things

"oh no its not a ward save"
"yes it is"
"no it isnt, its like one in everyway bar two"
"so its a ward save then"
"no! its such a gigantic difference that is possibly cant be one"
"can i march move"
"no your hold the tape measure at the wrong angel, its states on page 3 its needs to be a 45o, not 46o"

I have to say this is the most pettiest argument i have had in the entire time i have played warhammer, i think this tops doomfire ring hitting a banshee in a forest.

2d6
05-06-2008, 16:11
so as to get a rough idea of the contect of a post ;)

The word you are looking for is "context"

logan054
05-06-2008, 16:32
lol, well that certainly disproves what i said 2d6 :angel: Your the man ;)

sulla
05-06-2008, 16:43
I have to say this is the most pettiest argument i have had in the entire time i have played warhammer, i think this tops doomfire ring hitting a banshee in a forest.

Why are you pushing this Logan? It's not a ward save. You can have regen and a ward save on the same model. Why don't you just say it's like a ward save? Then no one would have an issue.

Braad
05-06-2008, 20:45
Right, bloodiedsword, I knew I read that somewhere.


Of course however if you roll that 6 then armour save and you only need the one, its usually ok with a khorne hero/lord :) what about black knights, white king, grave guard, bloodletter, bloodcrusher, bloodthirster with axe ;) im sure they can get a few 6's between them ;)

Anyway, Logan, in the quote above I clearly read something about armour saves after the deadly six.... Is it so weird that we got confused?

Also, it has some importance that regeneration is not a ward save, otherwise the tricksy trinket would negate it.

logan054
05-06-2008, 22:17
damn must have been typing to fast, thats missing a no, ahh well, why are pushing this? beats me, because it means that much you? because you like to argue about very trivial things? I just find it silly that i have been involved in a argument about regen being a ward save or not.

BloodiedSword
05-06-2008, 23:27
logan054 - I really have no idea why you're arguing this so fervently. I made a flippant remark because I felt you were getting way too into this and you respond by getting even more defensive?

I quoted that part because you had directly above me said "Actually it is a ward save". But the whole point of Regeneration is that it is not a Ward save - consequently, it stacks with Ward saves, things that ignore Ward Saves such as the Blade of Realities do not necessarily prevent Regeneration saves, and things that ignore Regeneration do not necessarily prevent Ward saves.

It's just a "save". Therefore, things that ignore saves "of any kind" ignore Regeneration, things that ignore "ward saves" do not ignore Regeneration (unless explicitly stated that they do).

To lump them together with Ward saves is misleading and confusing.

Belerophon709
05-06-2008, 23:51
@Bloodied: Have you noticed logan054 doing this previously, when he was incorrect? I know I have... ;)

@logan054: Regen is not a ward save. It works like one, with a few exceptions, but it's not a ward save. A regeneration save can be had and taken along with a ward save. If you had two ward saves, you would get to use one (the better of the two) of them. This is not the case with regeneration. Imagine a chaos lord. He has chaos armour. Then he might have Talisman of Protection. Then he might have Crown of Everlasting Conquest. Let's say he's wounded by a S3 attack. He would then have a 4+ AS to start with. Should he fail that, he would take his 6+ ward save from Talisman of Protection. If he fails that, he would take his 4+ regeneration save from the Crown of Everlasting Conquest. If he fails that, he takes the wound. So in total, that's 4+/6+/4+. If regeneration was a ward save he would only have 4+/4+, as the regeneration save would replace the 6+ save. He wouldn't be allowed to use them both. So in conclusion: Regeneration is not a ward save. Did I mention that regeneration isn't a ward save? Well, it isn't...

Clear enough for you?


P.S.: Regeneration is not a ward save.

minionboy
05-06-2008, 23:53
I think the rules are really clear in the book.

Regeneration states that it works "exactly like a 4+ ward save" with the following exceptions: No regen save against flaming attacks and Regeneration saves may be taken after armor saves and ward saves have failed (page 96).

Under the rules for Killing Blow however it says that "No armor saves or regeneration saves are allowed against this wound..." And it also says that "This attack is only effective against models witha unit strength of 2 or less" (page 95).

I don't know why it takes 2 pages of responses to get that clear.

US 1/2 gets no Regen against Killing Blow. Anything over US 2 is not affected by Killing Blow, so can Regen as normal.

Done.

Belerophon709
05-06-2008, 23:56
I don't know why it takes 2 pages of responses to get that clear.


Because "someone" is being a troll and the thread has gone slightly OT.

minionboy
05-06-2008, 23:58
Because "someone" is being a troll and the thread has gone slightly OT.

Yeah, that's usually the problem.

I've noticed that 99% of rules questions can be solved by looking in the rule book. It seems that concept has become quite rare lately.

Braad
06-06-2008, 08:13
damn must have been typing to fast, thats missing a no, ahh well, why are pushing this? beats me, because it means that much you? because you like to argue about very trivial things? I just find it silly that i have been involved in a argument about regen being a ward save or not.

Ow, come on. This happens all the time around here. People just like to argue about rules. Everyone has his own view and humans like to convince others to share the same view.
Why? Dunno... Something evolution maybe...
And since most people mistype quite often (myself included), this adds to the argument.
But considering that in this game 1 word can sometimes mean winning or loosing, it can be important. If your general on dragon is about to flee or die or something, just because of the way someone interprets one rule, than this can cause arguments. For example, take Teclis (I think, he has a big AS, WS and regeneration, right?) who is down to his last wound, and is just wounded by a gobbo boss who has wollopa's one hit wunda (S10, so no AS) and the tricksy trinket (no ward save allowed) then you'll just be very glad that the BRB says "regeneration is not a ward save".

Just be glad that this battle is fought here on warseer, and the next game can continue smoothly :)

@ minionboy, well I think most people still read the rulebook, and most think the have a grasp of the rules. Then someone asks a silly question, people start to argue, read the book again, and then find out they understood the wording wrong or missed something in the first place. That way, we always learn a bit more everytime we argue and talk about this tuff. I don't think it should be regarded as negative.

Kerill
06-06-2008, 08:27
And also not like a ward save against the blade of realities, tricky trinket or amulet of protectyness

Condottiere
06-06-2008, 09:12
For example, take Teclis (I think, he has a big AS, WS and regeneration, right?) who is down to his last wound, and is just wounded by a gobbo boss who has wollopa's one hit wunda (S10, so no AS) and the tricksy trinket (no ward save allowed) then you'll just be very glad that the BRB says "regeneration is not a ward save".

Just be glad that this battle is fought here on warseer, and the next game can continue smoothly :)

@ minionboy, well I think most people still read the rulebook, and most think the have a grasp of the rules. Then someone asks a silly question, people start to argue, read the book again, and then find out they understood the wording wrong or missed something in the first place. That way, we always learn a bit more everytime we argue and talk about this tuff. I don't think it should be regarded as negative.

I think you're thinking of Tyrion.;)

And I agree, I'd rather thrash it out online, than over the table.:p

logan054
06-06-2008, 11:13
Ow, come on. This happens all the time around here. People just like to argue about rules. Everyone has his own view and humans like to convince others to share the same view.
Why? Dunno... Something evolution maybe...

I know it happens all the time here, hence my comment on no wonder the rules forum is so full of question.


And since most people mistype quite often (myself included), this adds to the argument.

Are we talking about the rather petty quoting followered by point fingers and "OMFG, he typed a c instead of x, what a loser" :rolleyes: or what here, oh wait sorry we not, oh you mean a missing a no, funny, i thought i had already had said in another topic it didnt give a save? Either way, some how your dragging out a error far to much for sake of it.


But considering that in this game 1 word can sometimes mean winning or loosing, it can be important. If your general on dragon is about to flee or die or something, just because of the way someone interprets one rule, than this can cause arguments. For example, take Teclis (I think, he has a big AS, WS and regeneration, right?) who is down to his last wound, and is just wounded by a gobbo boss who has wollopa's one hit wunda (S10, so no AS) and the tricksy trinket (no ward save allowed) then you'll just be very glad that the BRB says "regeneration is not a ward save".

Just be glad that this battle is fought here on warseer, and the next game can continue smoothly :)

LOL, you really think that some **** is going to come on here and say that because it counts a ward save it would also be ignore it, again the hordes would jump upon the topic. I think you ruined your speech right at the end with saying BRB says Regen isnt a ward save :rolleyes: You have basically gone on about saying why we need to all be pedantic and then, well, im sure you can figure that out ;)


And also not like a ward save against the blade of realities, tricky trinket or amulet of protectyness

You really think that cant be argued both ways considering the basis of half the arguments here are around one word within a paragraph.

Belerophon709
06-06-2008, 11:25
You really think that cant be argued both ways considering the basis of half the arguments here are around one word within a paragraph.

I have no doubt that you would be willing to argue this, seeing as you seem perfectly willing to totally disregard the clear rules governing this issue that tell us that regeneration is not a ward save.

Also: See my previous posts.

And btw, regeneration is not a ward save.
That aside, regeneration is not a ward save.
And besides that, regeneration is not a ward save.

Xzazzarai
06-06-2008, 11:36
I think the rules are really clear in the book.

Regeneration states that it works "exactly like a 4+ ward save" with the following exceptions: No regen save against flaming attacks and Regeneration saves may be taken after armor saves and ward saves have failed (page 96).

Under the rules for Killing Blow however it says that "No armor saves or regeneration saves are allowed against this wound..." And it also says that "This attack is only effective against models witha unit strength of 2 or less" (page 95).

I don't know why it takes 2 pages of responses to get that clear.

US 1/2 gets no Regen against Killing Blow. Anything over US 2 is not affected by Killing Blow, so can Regen as normal.

Done.

QFT!

Nuf said!

logan054
06-06-2008, 11:50
I have no doubt that you would be willing to argue this, seeing as you seem perfectly willing to totally disregard the clear rules governing this issue that tell us that regeneration is not a ward save.


I will make sure from now on i always refer to it as a wardsave then ;) originally it was a statement for simplicity which is something that seems lost on the hordes here


Also: See my previous posts.

And btw, regeneration is not a ward save.
That aside, regeneration is not a ward save.
And besides that, regeneration is not a ward save.

Damn man, that really got me worked up hey :rolleyes: I think the problem here is to few of you actually play warhammer on a regular basis and use this as a poor substitute. I got say it is pretty funny how this has blown into a heated debate of total pointlessness.

Belerophon709
06-06-2008, 11:56
I will make sure from now on i always refer to it as a wardsave then ;) originally it was a statement for simplicity which is something that seems lost on the hordes here


If that was the case, then there would have been no reason to argue that it was indeed a ward save, other than to troll.

Personally, I suspect you just can't handle being wrong, which has been seen in previous threads.

Braad
06-06-2008, 12:11
@ Logan, to be honest, I don't have the time to completely read every single topic on warseer, so please do not hang me on missing something you've written somewhere else.
So, missing a "no" (which are the things I'm talking about, or worse, and not one wrong letter) turning a negative sentence into a positive one can have quite some influence on the whole story here.

If someones asks a question, to which the answer is "no", but I forget to say "no" in my answer, I too can expect people to correct me, even though my intentions were good.

logan054
06-06-2008, 12:16
If that was the case, then there would have been no reason to argue that it was indeed a ward save, other than to troll.

Personally, I suspect you just can't handle being wrong, which has been seen in previous threads.

Its rare i actually post in rules topics, people are so damned pandantic, its not nothing to do with being right or wrong, what can i say, the pot called the kettle black.


@ Logan, to be honest, I don't have the time to completely read every single topic on warseer, so please do not hang me on missing something you've written somewhere else.
So, missing a "no" (which are the things I'm talking about, or worse, and not one wrong letter) turning a negative sentence into a positive one can have quite some influence on the whole story here.

If someones asks a question, to which the answer is "no", but I forget to say "no" in my answer, I too can expect people to correct me, even though my intentions were good.

That is the half the reason this kind of thing starts, people only read a single reply, i know you not talking about wrong letters, that wasnt really a dig at yourself ;) Anyways, i refuse to continue this because no it boils down to i have the right argue about it even if i cant be bothered to read a topic fully.

Belerophon709
06-06-2008, 12:37
Its rare i actually post in rules topics, people are so damned pandantic, its not nothing to do with being right or wrong, what can i say, the pot called the kettle black.


Yet, you have been more than willing to argue this, even though you were dreadfully wrong and even claimed yourself that you wrote it out of simplicity the first time. When someone told you that what you said wasn't correct, you jumped at it and started claiming that you were right, even though you knew you were wrong.

That's trolling in my book.

2d6
06-06-2008, 12:44
lol, well that certainly disproves what i said 2d6 :angel: Your the man ;)

Actually that's "You're the man", thank you, I'll be here all week..

logan054
06-06-2008, 13:34
Yet, you have been more than willing to argue this, even though you were dreadfully wrong and even claimed yourself that you wrote it out of simplicity the first time. When someone told you that what you said wasn't correct, you jumped at it and started claiming that you were right, even though you knew you were wrong.

That's trolling in my book.

No actually i said they were being pedantic ;) in over words they are being overly fussy ;) However because people dont like the idea that can might go a tad over the top with everything it has started in "oh get him, he must bend to our will"

So as i said before because it certainly applies to alot of people, "the pot called the kettle black" dont come along all righteous , this is pointless debate has been feed by people such as yourself.

Belerophon709
06-06-2008, 13:45
No actually i said they were being pedantic ;) in over words they are being overly fussy ;) However because people dont like the idea that can might go a tad over the top with everything it has started in "oh get him, he must bend to our will"

So as i said before because it certainly applies to alot of people, "the pot called the kettle black" dont come along all righteous , this is pointless debate has been feed by people such as yourself.

Actually, you were the one who said you weren't going to participate in this discussion anymore, so why are you responding again, unless you're, once again, trolling?

You have been the one throughout the discussion unwilling to admit that you were just dreadfully wrong; instead you chose to argue that which you knew was wrong. That's trolling.

You claim that others have fed the debate, but since you're the one in here still arguing that you have said nothing wrong, even though the opposite has been shown time and time again, that claim will also hit the floor with a thud.

I for one will not participate again, and, unlike you, I do and mean what I say, so go on and keep the slandering going, and hopefully you'll end up talking to your own troll'ish self.


Buh-bye!

DeathlessDraich
06-06-2008, 14:30
I didn't read most of this thread because it seems like a personal feud.
There's one other important consideration here:

The sequence of Ward saves and Regeneration - especially important to Daemons, WE and some VC.

The sequence is not clearly stipulated !
i.e. Ward saves *could* be taken before Regeneration or after?!

Loopstah
06-06-2008, 14:49
The sequence of Ward saves and Regeneration - especially important to Daemons, WE and some VC.

The sequence is not clearly stipulated !
i.e. Ward saves *could* be taken before Regeneration or after?!

It states that regeneration saves "can be taken after armour and ward saves have been failed."

It gives an example in which the model fails it's Armour Save, fails it's Ward Save then passes it's Regeneration Save.

Armour Save > Ward Save > Regeneration Save

DeathlessDraich
06-06-2008, 15:05
Look at the statement you quoted again please

Loopstah
06-06-2008, 15:21
Look at the statement you quoted again please

Yes, the sequence is clearly stipulated and even demonstrated via an example.

Regenerations saves happen after Armour and Ward Saves.

EvC
06-06-2008, 16:08
Why would it matter which of the two 4+ saves you took first anyway?

Captain Brown
06-06-2008, 17:41
I think this has gone far enough. I have asked for a moderator who plays WFB to take a look, but so far none has done so, as the thread seems to be going no where fast I am going to close it.

Captain Brown
WarSeer Inquisition