PDA

View Full Version : Stand and shoot characters question



Icepick
22-10-2005, 22:21
Hey guys, i have been thinking this one over but im not sure if its in the rulebook or not (its all the way over the other side of the room!). So anyway, if a unit (with no missile weapons) with a hero in it who has a missile weapon is charged from the correct distance, can the hero stand and shoot as the unit holds etc?

T10
22-10-2005, 22:34
The rulebook does not cover this particular scenario.

However, it can be inferred that a "stand & shoot" charge response is only relevant to those models actually able to shoot at the time. Elements that might deny individual models the ability to shoot (such as not having line of sight, being in a rearward rank or not actually being in the possession of a missile weapon) does not deny the entire unit the charge response option.

It can further be inferred that since the character is a part of the unit and possesses a missile weapon, the unit has the ability to fire if not a volley then at least one missile. :)

It is also worth noting that the apart from opportunity to shoot at the charging unit, a "stand & shoot" charge response is identical to a "hold".

-T10

mageith
22-10-2005, 22:53
with a hero in it who has a missile weapon is charged from the correct distance, can the hero stand and shoot as the unit holds etc?
But of course. I've never even considered it to be played any other way.

Mage Ith

Icepick
22-10-2005, 22:58
Awesome, thats pretty cool as I would hate to leave my character out of the unit just so i could shoot with him.

Griefbringer
22-10-2005, 23:29
I would say that as long as the unit contains at least one missile armed model, it can declare stand & shoot as a charge reaction.

Requiring every single model to have a missile weapon before the unit could stand & shoot wouldn't make sense to me, and would lead to a number of silly situations (for example attaching a wizard to a unit of archers would make them unable to stand & shoot).

Gorbad Ironclaw
23-10-2005, 09:14
Actually, I think you could declare a stand and shoot action with a unit that doesn't contain any missile weapons at all. It would be pointless, but you could...

Icepick
23-10-2005, 09:49
Hmm, that sounds like a good tactic and worth thinking abo..huttah! [beats ironclaw over head]

Yanos
24-10-2005, 15:35
I dunno, I kinda like it as a last show of defiance :D. More like "Stand and Spit" really...

Icepick
24-10-2005, 16:25
"Stand and Spit"

Lol, i accidently misread that for a second there yanos.

Crazy Harborc
24-10-2005, 18:20
Around here, we never considered NOT letting a character who could/can shoot do so. Now, a heck of a lot of the time......the player forgets to do it.

NakedFisherman
24-10-2005, 18:43
Adding onto this, can a Skaven character leading from the back toss a Brass Orb or Death Globe at a charging unit?

mageith
24-10-2005, 20:31
Adding onto this, can a Skaven character leading from the back toss a Brass Orb or Death Globe at a charging unit?
Would he have line of sight?

NakedFisherman
25-10-2005, 06:18
Would he have line of sight?

IIRC, both these weapons do not require it.

Gorog Irongut
25-10-2005, 11:29
The exact answer is found in Chronicles 2004 pg. 114

It says that unless the character was acting specifically as crew (i.e. an Engineer who had used is ability the previous turn) that is completely free to stand and shoot.

Atrahasis
25-10-2005, 12:10
IIRC, both these weapons do not require it.

Correct.

However, they do present a problem. When would they be thrown (assuming the enemy starts more than 9.5" from the character)? As soon as the enemy reaches 9.5" from the character, and so are "in range"?

Bear in mind that the globe/orb could end up 18" from the character.

Shield of Freedom
25-10-2005, 14:53
I use this tactic a lot, my Empire Heroes usualy carry a pistol for just that. It almost gives you one free attack before the fight. As far as I knew (and I could be wrong, but I'm at work and can't look it up right now) the Stand and Shoot response just happens. Because at SOME point in the charger's move, they'll be in range. So it doesn't matter if the charging unit started out of range of the weapon, only if they're too close. As far as those thrown weapons are concerned, I don't really have any clue how to resolve that. My guess would be to resolve it once the charging unit makes contact. That way it's garanteed to be in range of the throw (just because it can scatter further away doesnt matter, in the normal shooting phase the unit had to be in range just to shoot in the first place), and interrupting the charge to shoot just doesn't seem right. I know fanatics cause you to do this, but don't get me started on that.....

Atrahasis
25-10-2005, 16:34
Working out the Orb/GLobe once the charge is completed is unsatisfactory, as any panic ensuing would be very different from the panic from a normal S&S reaction.

I think that working the shot out as if the unit had just reached the 8" range of the weapon, without actually moving them is a muddle that will just have to do.

WLBjork
25-10-2005, 16:35
Correct.

However, they do present a problem. When would they be thrown (assuming the enemy starts more than 9.5" from the character)? As soon as the enemy reaches 9.5" from the character, and so are "in range"?

Bear in mind that the globe/orb could end up 18" from the character.

Usual rules for S&S AFAIK. The results of S&S are worked out before the chargers are moved. Makes for a lot of :wtf: moments, such as a character with a pistol killing a flying enemy 20" away...

Atrahasis
25-10-2005, 16:39
Usual rules for S&S AFAIK. The results of S&S are worked out before the chargers are moved. Makes for a lot of :wtf: moments, such as a character with a pistol killing a flying enemy 20" away...

Yes, but the Globe/Orb has a range of 8" and scatters like a stone thrower. If, in the situation you give above, a character S&S with a Globe, working out the reaction before any movement will result in the target being out of range (absolute maximum range of effect for Orb/Globe is 19.5").

How are we to interpret "at the maximum range of the weapon" (BRB, pp53) in this situation?

mageith
25-10-2005, 17:07
Working out the Orb/GLobe once the charge is completed is unsatisfactory, as any panic ensuing would be very different from the panic from a normal S&S reaction.

I agree.



I think that working the shot out as if the unit had just reached the 8" range of the weapon, without actually moving them is a muddle that will just have to do.
Isn't the real range of the weapon 18 inches?

Stand and shoot normally has a penalty but your suggestion lets the globes be as good in S&S as normally.

I don't have the Skaven book. Are globes actually called missile weapons in their definition? If you read the definiton of missile weapons on page 92, they don't fit.

A while back, the question of whether gyrocopters S&S was opined on as no, even though their breathlike weapon is a gun. Before anyone asks, they aren't war machines either.

No it is not a war machine (NT) . (2 Replies). GW Gav Thorpe[]. 1/13/2003 5:24 (1/14/2003 0:33) No Text

One of the best things about Warhammer Fantasy 6th edition is the base rule set, that abilities are constant through out the armies. If you have Magic Resistance(1), then no matter what army, it gives 1 dispel dice against a spell that effects that unit/model. I find certain aspects of models with flying confusing since they seem to change from unit to unit. My own answers to the above units are as follows:

STAND AND SHOOT: The short answer… . (5 Replies). GW Gav Thorpe[]. 3/11/2003 7:58 (3/12/2003 12:53) …is no. I cannot quote any specific rules from a book, but I never considered the gyrocopter capable of stand and shoot charge reaction. I shall put this in a future Q+A. GAV


My guess if GW ever answers the question about S&S from the back with a template weapon, the answer will also be no, even if they or me are unable to quote any specific rules.

Mage Ith

NakedFisherman
25-10-2005, 17:54
Doesn't the gyrocopter use a breath weapon? Breath weapons are incapable of stand and shoot reactuions by the rules for Breath Weapons in the BRB.

Also, stand and shoot reactions for chargers who are out of range is done at the maximum range of the weapon. I always assumed that meant to move the chargers to the maximum range of the weapon and they'd Panic from that position if they suffered enough casualties. The BRB says to work out casualties at the maximum range of the weapon, and it's difficult to Panic without taking casualties first. :P

Template weapons most certainly CAN stand and shoot. Look at the Warpfire Thrower. I always played the Death Globes (they're an awesome weapon) the same way as the Warpfire Thrower. I place the template at the beginning of the charge anywhere within 8" and then scatter it and work out any casualties. Then I move chargers. This is how the Warpfire Thrower does its stand and shoot reaction.

Atrahasis
25-10-2005, 18:22
Isn't the real range of the weapon 18 inches?Or -2"?

What's the range of a stone thrower?



I don't have the Skaven book. Are globes actually called missile weapons in their definition? If you read the definiton of missile weapons on page 92, they don't fit.It says they're thrown in the shooting phase. Also, I don't agree thatthey don't fit the description on page 92. The description is vague and obviously covers everything from rocks and broken bottles (Gnoblars) to repeater handguns.


Also, stand and shoot reactions for chargers who are out of range is done at the maximum range of the weapon. I always assumed that meant to move the chargers to the maximum range of the weapon and they'd Panic from that position if they suffered enough casualties. The BRB says to work out casualties at the maximum range of the weapon, and it's difficult to Panic without taking casualties first. :PAll S&S reactions are made before ANY movement of chargers.

I hadn't thought of the warpfire thrower (silly really, given the example). I'd use that as a precedent I suppose.

WLBjork
25-10-2005, 20:21
I thought there was something about maximum range and S&S, but figured i'd dreamt it as it wasn't under the S&S rules. Trust GW to put it under movement :rollseyes:

Arrgh, this is annoying. They probably should be excluded from S&S reactions like artillery, but at the moment they aren't.

Best I can come up with is - in this case - move the unit to maximum range then carry out the attack as normal. I assume the weapon uses Scatter and Artillery, which poses another problem due to the -1 to hit mod?

Atrahasis
25-10-2005, 20:54
Arrgh, this is annoying. They probably should be excluded from S&S reactions like artillery, but at the moment they aren't. Its not artillery, and as has already been mentioned, WFT are scatter template weapons and can stand and shoot.


Best I can come up with is - in this case - move the unit to maximum range then carry out the attack as normal. I assume the weapon uses Scatter and Artillery, which poses another problem due to the -1 to hit mod?

I think the best thing is to do it as normal - before any movement. Breaks no rules and I can't imagine anyone would call it an unfair advantage that the -1 to hit doesn't apply, given the chances of actually hitting the charging unit.

mageith
26-10-2005, 07:36
Doesn't the gyrocopter use a breath weapon?
No. It uses a breath template but it’s a gun that unleashes a hail of bullets. If it were a breath weapon, there’d have been no discussion.



Also, stand and shoot reactions for chargers who are out of range is done at the maximum range of the weapon. I always assumed that meant to move the chargers to the maximum range of the weapon and they'd Panic from that position if they suffered enough casualties.

A lot of players assume this and it’s probably how I’d play it. It’s not explicit, however. Since the term is ”maximum” range, that’s why I asked the range of the globes. I should have asked the maximum range of the globes.



Template weapons most certainly CAN stand and shoot. Look at the Warpfire Thrower.

All missile weapons have the ability to stand-and-shoot unless specifically denied that ability, such as for most war machines. So as long as the globes are considered missile weapons, they can.



I always played the Death Globes (they're an awesome weapon) the same way as the Warpfire Thrower. I place the template at the beginning of the charge anywhere within 8" and then scatter it and work out any casualties. Then I move chargers. This is how the Warpfire Thrower does its stand and hoot reaction.
If the unit runs through it, then are they affected? Apparently not from your description. If so, that makes them more powerful then they normally are.

Mage Ith

WLBjork
26-10-2005, 08:54
Trouble is in this case (and with WFT) the unit needs to be moved so the effect of the attack is made clearer. If a hit is scored, then things are fine, but a 4" scatter may just clip the unit. The only way to be sure though would be to move the unit to the stated range of the weapon (I assume 8" for the PWG), then scatter from there.

Or as Mageith said, determine point of impact and if the unit moves over it it's affected. Don't like that method as much though, as I tend to weave very slightly when I'm moving things, and might just move sufficiently to reduce the hits by 1.

Atrahasis
26-10-2005, 12:01
There is a precedent for working out the result in the example of the WFT. There is no reason to believe it shouldn't work in that way.

god octo
29-10-2005, 20:08
yes he should be able to shoot, as anyone with a missile weapon can stand and shoot, it just depends on the range.