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Handmaiden
05-06-2008, 12:17
My reckoning is probably

1) Eldar+ Dark Eldar
2) Necrons
3) Tau Empire
4) Imperial Space Marines
5) Chaos Space Marines
6) Imperial Guard
7) Space Orks

I think its very close between the top 2 though. :chrome:

The_Outsider
05-06-2008, 12:20
Fact: necrons are number 1
Fact: eldar and dark eldar are number 2

The imperium is probably more advanced than the tau as a whole, even though tau excel in soem areas where as humanity excels in others.

Chaos are slightly below the imperium due the difficulty they have of maintaining them ore advanced weaponry (ref: plasma).

Orks are fundamentally at the botton of the pile, but they are strange case as in the more advanced tech you use agaisnt the faster they develop their own technology.

Varath- Lord Impaler
05-06-2008, 12:25
1. Orks.

Seriously. Orks freaking rock the technological debate.

x-esiv-4c
05-06-2008, 12:25
You left out the Jokero.

Whitehorn
05-06-2008, 12:40
Well I'm assuming you meant by Codex, because there's a ton of debates over who is in what race. Are 'Grots more advanced than Orks?'. That then excludes the like of the Old Ones, Jokaero and so on.

Necrons pre-date Eldar, but their tech level fell stagnant a while back - kind of how the Imperium hasn't really pushed technology for a loong time. If anything, they've gone backwards.

What to compare? Orks have the tech to teleport, which makes you wonder what kind of tech they're truly capable of, but rather than speculate, its safe to say they're low, because right now.. they are. However, like Tyranids, you have to question why they're viewed as low tech. Orks don't need advanced medicine and surgical technologies.. because they can pretty much glue their limbs back on.

Are the Tyranids a freak of nature or the creation of some genius scientists? Are their bio-systems wholly natural is there some bio-technology behind the scenes that we haven't seen? Can they really super-evolve?

Latro_
05-06-2008, 12:56
Orks last? no way.

They have teleporta and forcefield tech, they're whole race is a technological marvel of genetic engineering.

they just dont know it lol

Condottiere
05-06-2008, 13:05
While it's a tough call giving the technological crown to either Eldar or Necrons, I would have to state that from the choices given Orks are definitely last.

They create technological devices by instinct, which the extinct Brain Boyz caste had programmed into their DNA. If you asked them to explain how any piece of equipment functioned, they probably couldn't.

I'd speculate that they couldn't advance beyond the base tech level that was preprogrammed, whereas humans could given funding and proper research conditions.

:eyebrows:

Kronos
05-06-2008, 13:10
Imo the top five would be :

1-Necrons because they're millions of years old and have weaponry which still works, they also made of living metal, you can't be more advanced than being a machine yourself imo.


2 - Tau because they have developed reletively fast from sand dwelling people to an empire of burst cannon, ion shooting warriors.

3 - Eldar and Dark Eldar, they have anti grav tanks nuff said.

4 - Space Marines, biogenetically engineered warrior monks with "near impenetrable power armour.

5 - Orks, simply because they evolve from "mushrooms" and then all of a sudden they have guns, well shootas.

Correct me if i am wrong in what i think the fluff is from what I've mentioned but thats just how i see it.

Reticent
05-06-2008, 13:34
What do you mean by technologically advanced? Is just the stuff you own or is it the scope of what you understand?

Between humanity and tau, humans retain the more advanced legacy tech but no longer understand how it works while tau have the more advanced knowledge base and technical savvy but haven't approached yet the level of humanity's pinnacle.

I'm inclined to break it down as follows:

1. Necrons- by fiat
2. Eldar (both), Orks- though I'm not sure their psi-tech is really "technology"
3. Tau- only race actively engaged in science
4. Humanity- though probably ranked alone at 2 during their highest period of history
5. Kroot- only somewhat concerned with technology
6. Demons- completely unconcerned with technology

Unranked: Tyranid- possibly the real number 2 but it can't be determined whether the Hive Mind's grasp of the biotechnology it uses is technical or instinctive.

Joewrightgm
05-06-2008, 13:40
Necrons first; there technology reached its apex millions of years before humans, eldar, and orks came to be, and its still the most amazing/horrifically destructive technology ever.

The fact that they completely scour their tomb worlds of life, including bacteria, then created stasis tombs, and displacement fields to allow vast amounts of space in small areas.

All without the warp.

Bregalad
05-06-2008, 13:49
Considering the dynamics:
1.) Tau and Tyranids: developing new stuff very fast -> rising tech level.
2.) Eldar: Stagnant for several thousand years.
3.) Dark Eldar: Stagnant for several thousand years, less tech than Eldar.
4.) Necrons: Stagnant for several million of years.
5.) Human Imperium: Loosing its tech level.
6.) Chaos: below even that level.

Not familiar with Ork tech level, so I can't judge them. Looks stagnant.

The Lord of Hats
05-06-2008, 14:07
Remember, people. It's ranking how technologically advanced they are, not the rate of technological advancement.

1. Necrons. They teleport, they can access dimensions that the other races haven't even considered the existence of, they can ignore the laws of physics (inertia-less drives. Infinite acceleration, anyone?). Oh, and they're all robots that can regenerate their forms. Don't forget that.

2.Eldar/Dark Eldar: I'm not as knowledgeable about these guys, but the webway is quite a marvel of technology. They can create monomolecular blades with enough ease that they're used as ammunition, and they've got a pretty much infinite source of building material.

3. Imperium/Tau: It's a tie here, it really is. The Imperium can do a lot of things the Tau can't, and vice versa. The Tau are likely to beat the Imperium eventually, but that hasn't happened yet.

4. Orks. Granted, they have some really incredible stuff, but it doesn't compare very well to some of the other races' stuff. As with all things, the Orks could pull ahead of other races really quickly if they could just focus, and not lose all sorts o' tek whenever the mek that's on an inventin' spree kicks the bucket.

Whitehorn
05-06-2008, 14:07
Weren't the 'Brain Boyz' retconned, since the Old Ones are now responsible for creating Orks?

battle captain corpus
05-06-2008, 14:19
Nids....whatever tech you use against them they will simply ingest and use it against you if its good enough. ;)

Lord Malorne
05-06-2008, 14:23
Necrons technology well fully releases is devastating.

Then based on level oddly I would say Imperium as they get the job done :D.

Eldoriath
05-06-2008, 14:42
About the orks i would say that the technology they develop is primitive in many ways, but still it is advanced. They have after all in some weird way mastered the technology for warp travelling.

But, the orks in them selves i think are the most technology advanced race, even though this actually means that the race that created the orks should have the crown. It's really a hard fight, it all ends up on how you should weight the technology against each other. And on the note on tyranids: They don't have technogoly, they have evolution instead. Very fine and precise evolution perhaps, but it's still not technogoly.
But, i think my list would be this:

1. Orks (as in their race, not their gear)
2. Necrons
3. Eldar/Dark eldar (it's a tie)
5. Tau
6. The imperium/Chaos (basically it's the same tech)
7. Orks (as in their gear)

Malachai
05-06-2008, 14:48
1 necrons
2 Tau
3 Eldar/DE

TheDarkDuke
05-06-2008, 15:18
how can orks be last? there weapons are better then the imerpial guard laser pointers.. kind of sad actually..

for me id say

1) necrons (they're freaking robots)
2) eldar/dark eldar
3) tau
4)chaos SM/ space marines (yes,yes regualr ones have slightly newer tech but the spiky ones have defilers so ha)
5)orks
6) imperial guard
7) daemons and nids (really no tech for either of them)

Lame Duck
05-06-2008, 15:18
1. Necrons
2. Eldar
3. Imperium
4. Tau
5. Orks
6. Choas

The resaon i put Imperium ahead of tau is because they can teleport.

'But orks can teleport!'. Yes, that's right jhonny, but that is the singulr 'high point' of ork technology, they can't even make skimmers.

I think it's this way if you take the technology of the entire race into account, not just how techy their troops are.

Malcavious
05-06-2008, 15:30
1. C'tan (necrons are slaves they do not have thier "own" technology)
2. Eldar
3. Tau
4. Orks (they build new things just from thought and make it work, the imperium cannot do this)
5. Imperials (they do not know how anything they have works, they are scavangers)
6. Chaos (still using 10k year old crap)

Durath
05-06-2008, 16:22
Considering the dynamics:
1.) Tau and Tyranids: developing new stuff very fast -> rising tech level.
2.) Eldar: Stagnant for several thousand years.
3.) Dark Eldar: Stagnant for several thousand years, less tech than Eldar.
4.) Necrons: Stagnant for several million of years.
5.) Human Imperium: Loosing its tech level.
6.) Chaos: below even that level.

Not familiar with Ork tech level, so I can't judge them. Looks stagnant.

:wtf:
The question is which is most technologically advanced, not which is advancing the fastest.

Kettu
05-06-2008, 17:24
As I understand it:

I) C'tan/Necrons. Non-argument here, they apexed millions of years ago and no one is yet to even get close.

II) Eldar, All the Eldar. They apexed thousands of years ago and they remain one of the most advanced races out there.

III) Tau/Imperium. One is progressing, the other regressing. They both stand at about the same level with maybe the Imp of Man in front still. They have massive backlogs of tech only vaguely understood and should they ever decide to read the tech manual, then they probably forge ahead again.
Tau on the other hand have made amazing leaps in technology understanding an give them a good hundred years or so they'll probably forge ahead of the IoM whilst the AdMech are still reading the manuals by candlelight cause someone forgot the incense when replacing the light bulbs.

IV) Chaos SM. They have an ever shrinking, ever mutating supply of tech and eventually they’ll be so infused with the warp that'll cease to matter.

V) Orks/Gretchin/Snottlings. Yes, they have teleportas, what do Termies do then? They may be masterful builders, craftsmen and mechanics, ingenious and robust creatures that may be able to construct tech better then if all the other empires banded together and had the best thinkers as a think tank but it remains that they currently haven’t and probably never will. But just because they can't beat the AdMech at a build-off that doesn't really stop them being one of the greatest problems in the 41st millennium now does it?

And Finally, Nids.

I can't really classify Nid tech as we don't really know much about it. Are they natural or artificial? Is the Hive mind truly sentient or is it just a vague concept of millions of minds thinking as one? As it stands tough, they display animalistic behaviour more often then anything and so for now I won't include them.

As for Jokero, all I know is they are monkeys who make digital weapons for The IoM. If anyone has more info please enlighten me.

Damocles8
05-06-2008, 17:34
For some reason I don't see the Imperium as regressing...more stagnating with occasional leaps and bounds from here to there (discovery of STC)...and Imperial tech is really just an umbrella for Adeptus Mechanicus anyway....

Handmaiden
05-06-2008, 18:00
The reason why the Imperium will never advance under its own ingenuity is because theyve gone and fused religion with Science so much that its pretty much impossible to discern between them.

..and religion does not encourage new thought.

Always wondered whos more Advanced Craftworld Eldar or Dark Eldar not in terms of overall technology , but the tech they use in their armies.

Howling Banshees or Incubi hmm thats tough.

and Striking Scorpions seem more advanced than Wyches who look not all that different from DarK Elf Witch ELves.

The Skimmers , well the Eldars superfically look more high tech , but im sure its the same principles allowing them to hover.

The Wraithlord or the Talos ...would have to give it to the Wraithlord.

Jetbikes I thinK Dark ELdar win on cos theyre faster.

Malcavious
05-06-2008, 18:21
The harli's use both of the eldars weapons and vehicals. So maybe they are truely equal

weissengel86
05-06-2008, 18:42
fusing religion and science doesnt make any difference whether advancements happen and i can tell somebody didnt do to well in history if you believe religion doesnt encourage new thought. The mechanicus are fully capable of advancing science tremendously regardless of there religious beliefs. If the emperor came back the imperium would start advancing again and eventually surpass the tau and eventually the eldar.

Col. Tartleton
05-06-2008, 19:02
1.Tau- High standards and scale of manufacturing and a deep understanding of how things work. Battlesuits are far superior to Astartes and Mantas beat titans.

2. Imperium- Unimaginable scale of manufacturing with everything from cheaply stamped metal buttons to intricately pattered highly advanced master crafted power weapons. The Imperium is the biggest if not the best technologically.

3. Necrons- They don't need to obey the laws of physics because they're evil, so they have the ultimate evil technology. But its the C'tan not the Necrons who did all the cool stuff.

4. DE/Eldar, its not technology, its magic. Once you realise that, one can understand why such an "advanced" race are outclassed by marines and fight with swords and pistols like the brutish and outdated imperial Marines.

5 Orks, Sure you can build a tractor beam while attempting to start a fire, but the fact you were trying to make a fire makes you look stupid in the face of advanced races.

6.Chaos, plenty of tech, but its stolen and then magically made evil and therefore outside the bounds of normal laws.

7. Tyranids, being able adapt your sphincter into a pistol does not make technology, it makes scary aliens that can shoot small man eating crabs out of their ass.

ChaosBeast
05-06-2008, 19:17
1. C'tan (necrons are slaves they do not have thier "own" technology)

the necrons designed all their tech, god, it was them that gave the c'tan bodies. although they may be slaves now it was definitely all their own tech

Handmaiden
05-06-2008, 19:23
If the emperor came back the imperium would start advancing again

Apparently The Emperor would come back if they'd only let the thing sitting on the Golden Throne actually die.

Condottiere
05-06-2008, 19:41
fusing religion and science doesnt make any difference whether advancements happen and i can tell somebody didnt do to well in history if you believe religion doesnt encourage new thought. The mechanicus are fully capable of advancing science tremendously regardless of there religious beliefs. If the emperor came back the imperium would start advancing again and eventually surpass the tau and eventually the eldar.

That would depend a great deal if groups within that religion perceived said technological research, development and/or advancement as a threat against their vested interests.;)

DEADLOCK_1992
05-06-2008, 19:55
Would I be wrong in saying the nids are biologicly the most advanced?

Isoroku
05-06-2008, 20:03
1)Tau More fast advanced in minor time
2) Eldar/Dark Eldar
3) Necrons/Ctan
4) Imperium/Chaos Legions and Demonforge Worlds (Like Kai)
5) Orks/Nids Adaptability

azimaith
05-06-2008, 20:03
Its *necrontyr* in first place. The c'tan don't (or at least didn't) use technology on their own. They may certainly have an innate understanding of the universe and may be able to manipulate reality, but I think differentiating between technology and personal power is valid.

Of course the necrontyr are extinct and I don't see necrons as a "race" so much as a "thing". Perhaps they can still be considered a non-organic species because some of the necron lords retain intellect (though from apocalypse it seems that this intellect is downloaded). But really, would you call all hoover vacuums a "race" or DVD players a race?

Leaving out necrons (if they are a "race" then they're at the top, well above eldar)
I'd go eldar(and dark eldar), tau, imperials(Equal, the tau utilize different technology and in different ways but not necessarily at a higher level, they also understand their technology which will lead to them eclipsing the imperium eventually), Chaos(A step below imperial because they rely on warp magicks as a stand in for tech in certain cases) , orks, and at the very bottom, tyranids who don't even use technology but rather innate knowledge.

It depend of course on how you define technology.

Poseidal
05-06-2008, 20:17
I don't rate 'potential' or 'growth' in this comparison. Anything can happen; the Eldar were at the height of power when they suddenly all died apart from a few. Tau tech could hit a technological ceiling. Although unlikely, the Imperium or even Eldar could suddenly go into a renaissance (and they are developing tech; remember, the Vyper was invented post fall; the description states it's origin in Saim Hann - which before the fall was a trading ship so I think it's unlikely it was created at that time. The Imperium still has new stuff since the Golden Dark Age of Technology)

1. Necrontyr
2. Eldar (all of them) - It's grown, but the principles of the weapons are the same as other races; the manufacture is different but the principle is the same in the end. Often described as being very efficient.
3. The Imperium - Just because it looks clunky doesn't mean it's not advanced. Varies in reliability. The humble Lasgun is one of the most efficient guns in the galaxy. Chaos use imperial tech which is 'retro'. The Imperium does have skimmer tech, but it's probably not as efficient for them to make many vehicles like that.
4. Tau - Looks modern and have a wide variety of skimmers, but miss a lot of things that the Imperium have.

footnotes

I can't rate Orks and Tyranids here as Ork tech isn't more or less 'avanced', it's just orkier. Tyranids are more of a living organism and don't really have tech so to speak.

Jokaero are an anomaly (maybe like Orks); they can instinctively make advanced pieces of technology, but they are (allegedly) not intelligent creatures and don't really have a society.

my 2c

Gensuke626
05-06-2008, 20:19
The resaon i put Imperium ahead of tau is because they can teleport.

'But orks can teleport!'. Yes, that's right jhonny, but that is the singulr 'high point' of ork technology, they can't even make skimmers.

I think it's this way if you take the technology of the entire race into account, not just how techy their troops are.Actually, Ork Tellyportaz are not the singular high point of the Ork Tech Scale. Shokk Attack Guns, Lifta-Droppaz, Pulsa Rokkitz, Bubble-Chuckaz, Trakta-Kannonz, Splatta-Gunz and all manner of orky field artillery come in at frighteningly high levels of tech, just used crudely.

How many other races can actually get a machine that can throw an energy bubble to crush enemies? Or create a device that uses a force field to slam the opposition into the turf?


Weren't the 'Brain Boyz' retconned, since the Old Ones are now responsible for creating Orks?
They've been un-retconned.

What do you mean by technologically advanced? Is just the stuff you own or is it the scope of what you understand?

Between humanity and tau, humans retain the more advanced legacy tech but no longer understand how it works while tau have the more advanced knowledge base and technical savvy but haven't approached yet the level of humanity's pinnacle.

I'm inclined to break it down as follows:

1. Necrons- by fiat
2. Eldar (both), Orks- though I'm not sure their psi-tech is really "technology"
3. Tau- only race actively engaged in science
4. Humanity- though probably ranked alone at 2 during their highest period of history
5. Kroot- only somewhat concerned with technology
6. Demons- completely unconcerned with technology

Unranked: Tyranid- possibly the real number 2 but it can't be determined whether the Hive Mind's grasp of the biotechnology it uses is technical or instinctive.

Ork tech is Ork Tech. The Anzion Effect is generally considered bunk. Current theory on why Ork tech tends to fail in human hands is because Ork gunz are so crude that they have a tendency to jam and fall apart. Without a Mekboy to repair the kart/wagon/gun, the humans simply assume that the tech doesn't really work.

Bregalad
05-06-2008, 20:27
Remember, people. It's ranking how technologically advanced they are, not the rate of technological advancement.

:wtf:
The question is which is most technologically advanced, not which is advancing the fastest.
Well, let me put it this way: IMHO a monkey that happens to find a computer and push the on-button, is less technological advanced than a computer specialist in an empty room. So here a revised list:

1.) Tau: Active understanding of technology and engineering, developing new technology as needed.
2.) Eldar/Dark Eldar, Necrons: Enough understanding of technology to maintain their current level. No indication of progress for thousands of years.
3.) Imperium/Chaos. No understanding of technology, but they stumbled over some useful old templates, and with singing and praying to a machine god, their priests somehow manage to get these strange artefacts going.

Tyranids and Orks are a bit off, but I would place Tyranids on level 1, because the hive mind develops new biotechological solutions very fast.

The Orks/Grots are around level 2, as they maintain their tech level, think they understand it, but perhaps don't.

Idaan
05-06-2008, 20:28
4. DE/Eldar, its not technology, its magic. Once you realise that, one can understand why such an "advanced" race are outclassed by marines and fight with swords and pistols like the brutish and outdated imperial Marines.

What's the difference between technology and magic in a world in which magic has strictly (at least in theory, the writers often change it to fit the plot) defined borders and rules with (pseudo)scientific explanations for all processes, and on the other hand the science has become so calcified and prone to superstition that it approaches magic?

Then there's the famous Arthur C Clarke quote that the science sophisticated enough is indistinguishable from magic. So maybe the problem is not with the Eldar magic, but with puny mon-keighs' inability to see the difference. ;p

If you see 'magic' as everything that involves psychic powers or Warp (though it means that all human communication and space travel is 'magical'), then have a look at the both kindreds' skimmer technology, DE splinter weapons, CWE shuriken weaponry, Prism Cannons, monofilament weapons. No sign of psychic powers in them. Heck, DE don't use psychic powers at all, from what we can gather from their rather meagre fluff.

And Marines don't outclass Eldar because of whatever they have, but rather because of their Main Character Shield.


My classification would be as follows:

1. Necrons - given all their technology by beings with thorough understanding of natural law, incarnations of materium. It's pretty much impossible to surpass their achievements on the realspace based tech.
2. Eldar - both kindreds - masters of Warp-based technology. During 60 millions of years of existence they also refined their realspace-tech, far beyond the possibilities of Mankind
3. All other races with advantages in certain fields but drawbacks in others.

That said, Necrons aren't that much better than those Marines that suffer from a bad case of flu and Eldar send their troops to death in cardboard armour and armed with paperclip-spitting guns. And people complain about Marines not fulfilling the promise of being "humanity's finest".:rolleyes:

SlaughterSong
05-06-2008, 20:32
im not going to rank in a list because that is quanitative resoning and what i am goinging into its qualitative and quanitative

the question is who is the most technologically advanced race, this means who has achieved the highest level of technology, the most advanced

necrons and eldar achieved the ability to put their minds into machines (eldar= wraithlord/guard, necrons= all of em) though the necrons did this without warp technology, big difference and i give it them, although in a grey knights novel a tech priest managed to import his mind into a computer mainframe and survived so humans can tie on that 1

tau have yet to master long range space travel (though this is due to a lack of warp understanding) and cannot teleport, puts them below the other races

orks have in certain cases developed technology beyond any other race, SAG is a teleporting weapon, orks can teleport, build shield generators and zaap cannons all very advanced and comparable to the other races weapons

eldar have the most consistantly advanced technology followed closely by the DE and i would say with d cannons, wraithcannons and webway travel they have achieved the highest level of technology though they are warp assisted so necrons could be considered above them as they can teleport without using the warp

Sev38
05-06-2008, 20:36
'But orks can teleport!'. Yes, that's right jhonny, but that is the singulr 'high point' of ork technology, they can't even make skimmers.
.

Nothing says orks can't build skimmers they simply see no reason to as it is faster to just build wheels. If they can build a lifta droppa they can build a skimmer. Also the ork mine layer data sheet is a skimmer. Most ork tech seems bad because they don't have the attention span care about appearance or safety but that doesn't mean it isn't advanced. I would rate ork tech pretty high as it is capable of as much if not more as the other races' stuff but they can build it out of scrap metal and garbage.

Poseidal
05-06-2008, 20:55
Well, let me put it this way: IMHO a monkey that happens to find a computer and push the on-button, is less technological advanced than a computer specialist in an empty room. So here a revised list:
A Tau tech in a room full of Eldar equipment is like a monkey with a computer and on button compated with the Eldar Bonesinger in an empty room.

I'm sure many humans and most if not all Eldar still know how to use/maintain their tech, and Bonesingers constantly create and continue to do so. In fact, for those humans who have 'forgotton' I would go so far to say it is a testament to how well designed human tech was to be operated and kept usable by a 'relative simpleton' years after they were made as you've described.

Imperial space travel is far, far ahead of Tau space travel and this is a much more important facet than larger guns. On top of this, isn't a lot of Tau tech 'borrowed' from other races?

Anyway, the reason why Eldar, Tau and Necrons have such an emphasis in skimmers over land vehicles is they never invented the wheel. :p

Ronin_eX
05-06-2008, 21:20
1) Necrontyr - They are the oldest living race and they have all the tech to show for it. As ancient evils go they simply have the best gear out of all of them. Inertialess drives, gauss weaponry and bio-metal help put them up at the top of the tech food chain.

2) Eldar/Dark Eldar - The next up in the age category. Their webway tech and wraithebone put them ahead of the Imperium in terms of elegance and efficiency in technology. They can also store souls which is fairly impressive though for them they don't have the luxury of not having to have that technology.

3) Tyranid - Using bio-tech alone they make it to this category because they have already eaten at least one galaxy based on their superior, ever-evolving bio-technology. Because of this they inch in just ahead of the Imperium in my mind.

4) The Imperium - Say what you will about how they treat tech but they have it and they have it in spades. The actual working knowledge of most tech is in the hands of only a few but what they can create with such tight-lipped policies on dissemination is truly staggering. They can build arcologies that can hold billions, they have anti-grav technology, inertial dampeners (small anti-grav/intertial dampeners are used to make power armour lighter and faster). They have the means to destroy whole worlds from orbit while still knowing how to make a gun that is so reliable that you could drop it from orbit and still fire it (after charging it up from a wall plug to make sure its topped up). Taking a look at all the tech the Imperium has and uses on a regular basis they are a society rife with super-tech from protective fields that zip the wearer out of the way of danger to incredibly advanced bio-tech in the form of the Space Marine. The Tau have progressed rapidly up to this point but the Imperium still has tens of thousands of years of a head start.

5) The Tau - They evolved some fairly sophisticated tech in a short time and they use it with an effective combat doctrine backed up by faith in a cause almost as strong as the Imperium. With time they may become more advanced but the Galaxy isn't known for being very kind to naive races.

6) Orks - They make it into the back because when the Brain Boyz wired them up they must have soldered something wrong. While their inherent connection with their technology through semi-psychic means is amazing it isn't very reliable. Mix that with the fact that they likely understand how their weapons and tech work less than even a low level Mech Engineer of the Adeptus Mechanicus and I'm sure you can see why they aren't top of the list. Still it is amazing that they have instinctive knowledge of technology but that is more a testament of the level of tech of the race that created them than the Orks themselves.

Denise
05-06-2008, 21:33
Actually I think that all of the races in 40k are more or less at an equal level of technology. I might be wrong, but from reading about all of the assorted races it seems that in the 40k universe technology doesn't progress beyond a certain point. Each race seems to be able to go only so far in technology before they just peak off and can only develope technology sideways rather than upwards. In other words, after they have invented the best tank, they can only refine/modify it but they can't make a better one.

Also, I think its important to point out that even if I am wrong, the Tyranids and Orks are deffinetly in the running for highest technology. The Tyranid's technology is biological manipulation which is deffinetly "scientific" on a certain level and they have deffinetly mastered it on a level that the others couldn't dream of. Biotechnology is science for us, they are just better at it.

In the case of the Orks, their tech is essentially warp manipulation/magic. I think that this is legitimately a science in the 40k universe. In our universe magic is obviously anything but a science or technology, though in the 40k universe it is undeniably a force in the universe. The Orks have to a certain extent acquired an advanced understanding of it and are able to manipulate its affects in the natural universe. Maybe not scientific as we see it in our world but in a universe where "magic/the warp" does exist I think you need to look at it differently.

Gensuke626
05-06-2008, 21:54
Nothing says orks can't build skimmers they simply see no reason to as it is faster to just build wheels. If they can build a lifta droppa they can build a skimmer. Also the ork mine layer data sheet is a skimmer. Most ork tech seems bad because they don't have the attention span care about appearance or safety but that doesn't mean it isn't advanced. I would rate ork tech pretty high as it is capable of as much if not more as the other races' stuff but they can build it out of scrap metal and garbage.

Somehow this reminds me of Iron Man...
Engineer: Mr. Stane. Sir, we've explored what you've asked us and it seems as though there's a little hiccup. Actually, um...
Obadiah Stane: A hiccup?
Engineer: Yes, see to power the suit... sir, the technology doesn't actually exist. So it...
Obadiah Stane: Wait, wait, the technology? Here is the technology. I've asked you to simply make it smaller.
Engineer: Okay, sir, that's what we've been trying to do but honestly, it's impossible.
Obadiah Stane: [yelling] Tony Stark was able to build this in a cave! With a box of scraps!
Engineer: Well, I'm sorry. I'm not Tony Stark.

Sev38
05-06-2008, 22:37
Mix that with the fact that they likely understand how their weapons and tech work less than even a low level Mech Engineer of the Adeptus Mechanicus

This is just blatantly not true. Just because their base knowledge is instinctive does not mean they don't learn and understand how things work. If meks didn't understand their own weapons they would not be able to invent new ones, which they do, or repair the ones they've got. Just because their understanding comes from instinct doesn't make it less of an understanding.

Durath
05-06-2008, 22:57
Well, let me put it this way: IMHO a monkey that happens to find a computer and push the on-button, is less technological advanced than a computer specialist in an empty room. So here a revised list:

1.) Tau: Active understanding of technology and engineering, developing new technology as needed.
2.) Eldar/Dark Eldar, Necrons: Enough understanding of technology to maintain their current level. No indication of progress for thousands of years.
3.) Imperium/Chaos. No understanding of technology, but they stumbled over some useful old templates, and with singing and praying to a machine god, their priests somehow manage to get these strange artefacts going.

Tyranids and Orks are a bit off, but I would place Tyranids on level 1, because the hive mind develops new biotechological solutions very fast.

The Orks/Grots are around level 2, as they maintain their tech level, think they understand it, but perhaps don't.

I understand your point about the Tau, and while I DO give them credit for being the most curious species in trying to research new tech, they are FAR from being the most "advanced" race technologically.

This comes from the fact, that the Tau are technologically infantile compared to the other races of 40k. They are learning how to make good use of tech, but it is new, and they are still learning.

The question then, with no derived implications, is not "what is the average-techno-IQ of the engineers of a race?". Its "What is the most Technologically advanced race?" period.

The answer must be the Necrons. While they probably lack sentience on a smaller scale, they have reached the pinacle in understanding of physical manipulation on a level nothing else in the 40k world has developed (As someone else pointed out: Inertialess drives, gauss weaponry and bio-metal... add to that, adaptive galactic-scale AI, point-to-point mass transport)

Besides... I notice you have a Tau avatar... could your thinking here be slightly biased? :D

The_Outsider
06-06-2008, 07:13
Hell it even mentions in the necron codex (under chronomentron entry in the armoury IIRC) that the necrons are masters of space and time. No other race can bend reality without the use of warp spawned powers.

Poseidal
06-06-2008, 08:01
The question then, with no derived implications, is not "what is the average-techno-IQ of the engineers of a race?". Its "What is the most Technologically advanced race?" period.
Even with this in mind, there is no evidence that Tau are actually cleverer than the humans in this regard; merely more inquisitive. The Eldar codex basically states that the Eldar mind is more capable.

Even in this contest, Tau don't win. Ironically, it's one where Necron come last as they basically ended it all when they became what they are now.

Also, to throw another spanner into the 'monkey' analogy: The Jokaero ARE a bunch of monkeys with computers, yet they can produce extremely advanced goods without what other races can call intellect or sentience.

Weed_Bix
06-06-2008, 11:10
Necrons win it hands down...they developed quickly and then fell asleep while the other races developed for millions of years..then necrons wake up....oh wait they are still the most advanced....in the codex it even mentions that their weaponry defies all the laws of physics...
Eldar/DE are probably next but i would have to say seeings orks can't develop technology like the other races i think they have done a pretty darn good job seeings there shootas are better than lasguns and so on.

Lame Duck
06-06-2008, 11:52
Actually, Ork Tellyportaz are not the singular high point of the Ork Tech Scale. Shokk Attack Guns, Lifta-Droppaz, Pulsa Rokkitz, Bubble-Chuckaz, Trakta-Kannonz, Splatta-Gunz and all manner of orky field artillery come in at frighteningly high levels of tech, just used crudely.

How many other races can actually get a machine that can throw an energy bubble to crush enemies? Or create a device that uses a force field to slam the opposition into the turf?


I may have been off then. Are those pre 3rd edition weapons? I havent heard of most of them.

Well in that case I just really don't know. I would say orks/tau/IoM are level tech wise.

heretics bane
06-06-2008, 12:00
1. C'tan (necrons are slaves they do not have thier "own" technology)
2. Eldar
3. Tau
4. Orks (they build new things just from thought and make it work, the imperium cannot do this)
5. Imperials (they do not know how anything they have works, they are scavangers)
6. Chaos (still using 10k year old crap)

1. C'tanarre their gods, in their race to save themselves the necrontyr created brilliant techonolgies before having to go to the C'tan, so they do.

2. Ill agree with that but they havent seemed to make any new weapons recently

3. Tau are advance but not just there yet since their constantly ungrading.

4.Orks can make anything they create work dosnt mean there very hightech at all

5.Imperials with the DAoT The imperials would be a close no.2

6.If you know anything about the imperium, its in recessesion to the CSM would have slightly better tech as in the imperium most of it would be lost or more "diluted" abit like themselves.

Poseidal
06-06-2008, 12:11
2. Ill agree with that but they havent seemed to make any new weapons recently
While this seems like the current situation, there is actually evidence that this is not the case.

The Vyper is mentioned to be invented in Saim Hann as support for the bikes and spread to other craftworlds. If this was done pre-fall it would have gone to the homeworlds.

Aspects are a largly post fall organisations. It's mentioned that there are more aspects than the big 6 (now 8) and there are some new ones constantly appear; I find it quite likely that the Slicing Orbs of Zandros wouldn't use weaponry that was pre-existing (though it could be based on pre-existing tech; but all tech is in some way)

Since the fall of the Eldar is regarded as being in 30,000 then these are relatively recent inventions.

heretics bane
06-06-2008, 12:22
30,000 years is a pretty long time for the creation of jet bikes and having two more aspects compared to every other race

MvS
06-06-2008, 13:43
Re. the Eldar, they were civilised and dominating the galaxy for about 60 million years. That means they were experimenting with their technomancy (warp manipulation and physical science combined) for millions of years longer than anyone.

The reason they aren't as advanced any more is because of the Fall. It's the only way to explain it. They should be on a par, or even far in advance, of the Necrons, but they clearly aren't. Their non-Warp technology seems relatively clunky when you consider that they are supposed to have been developing it for tens of millions of years.

I think the Fall almost completely destroyed the Eldar as a culture, and what we see today is just the merest glimmer of what they were before their Fall. It isn't just about quantity and availability of their technology, its also the quality of it. They've regressed by a VERY long way.

We are witnessing the Eldar's equivalent of Mad Max, although they are obviously incredibly more advanced than the Mad Max earth because they are a civilisation with 60 million years of sophistication and development before they regresssed, so they had far further to fall than the relatively 'young' human civilisation in Mad Max.

Anyway, without the fall I would put Eldar as a clear first on the list. But seeing as they fell:

1. Necrontyr/C'tan tech - we have only seen the lowest levels of this technology as yet, because the Necrons are barely active in the galaxy right now. What the Imperium have seen are just the small explorator forces of the Necron 'flow-chart'. They have supremely advanced living metal nano-tech (perhaps even molecular nanotech), they can bend and jiggle around with all the dimensions of Realspace without needing the weirdness of the Warp to do so, they are master geneticists (Pariah gene) and they even have technology that can mute the Warp to a degree.

2. Eldar - even after their civilisation was pretty much wiped out, with trillions upon trillions of them dying in an instant or else going insane, with almost all their worlds and resources utterly destroyed and consumed, along with the vast majority of their finest minds, they were so advanced pre-Fall that they are still way up there today. Whether they improve and continue to grow as a society again depends on a whole host of factors.

2 1/2. The Demiurge of they exist.

3 a. Imperium - although they have access to truly amazing technology they are forgetting how to use it and smothering inventiveness. They will regress in time unless they change.

3 b. We are told that Horus discovered a world with a complete STC and this is how he won over those who would become the Dark Mechanicus. This tech is perhaps evidenced in the strange shapes and types of Chaos Legion starships and aircraft. Although I think that this tech is limited to a very few within the EoT. It is also married to Warpcraft, so it would be formidable indeed. The only reason I put it on a par with the Imperium is because the Imperium is so vast it probably doesn't know how much technology it has within it and has advanced technology far more broadly available than appears to be the case across the EoT.

3 1/2. Tau - smaller and with less marvels than present in the length, breadth and depth of the galactic Imperium of Man. That said, unlike the Imperium the Tau are always improving their technology and they are probably not averse to studying captured Imperial technology, Eldar technology, Demiurge technology and even Necron technology if they can get their hands on it. Watch this space.

4. Orks - incredibly powerful forcefields and the like, but then again their technology is inconsistent and not based upon methodical research that can advance in a measurable fashion. It seems that some Ork mechs can invent things that eclipse the Imperium's finest in their effects, but then it also seems that only these giften mechs seem to be able to construct these devices and they never seem to record much for posterity, hence the incredibly variable mix of tech levels and reliability we see Ork technology.

I don't count the Tyranids because how they think and what they do are not things I would refer to as scientific research or technology development per se. They are, however, incredibly proficient at adapting in very short spaces of time to almost any environment, circumstance or need they are faced with.

Poseidal
06-06-2008, 13:52
10,000.

Remember the entire surviving race has had to adapt from to Craftworld living: undergo (and invent) an entire new vocational system to avoid death; reinvent a formal military system to avoid and mask the excess of fighting; Grow the existing craftworlds to be larger to support more of the population rescued from the planets; invent a way of saving their conciousness/souls from certain doom after death.

EDIT: I posted this before I saw the Mad Max analogy. I like it a lot actually, I think that is the best way to put it. There has been some things made since then, so they're not completely stagnant but they're certainly unable to currently have what they had in the glory days.

Starchild
06-06-2008, 15:02
Weren't the 'Brain Boyz' retconned, since the Old Ones are now responsible for creating Orks?Not necessarily. I think it would be more accurate to say that the Old Ones made the Brainboyz.


1. Necrons. They teleport, they can access dimensions that the other races haven't even considered the existence of, they can ignore the laws of physics (inertia-less drives. Infinite acceleration, anyone?). Oh, and they're all robots that can regenerate their forms. Don't forget that.True. When Necrons phase out, they instantly teleport from wherever in the universe they are, straight back to their tomb worlds, instantly.


2.Eldar/Dark Eldar: I'm not as knowledgeable about these guys, but the webway is quite a marvel of technology. They can create monomolecular blades with enough ease that they're used as ammunition, and they've got a pretty much infinite source of building material.The Eldar didn't create the Webway; that's something they inherited from the Old Ones, apparently. However, they rank right under the Necrons because of their psychic engineering. (The Old Ones created psychically-gifted races to use the Warp as a weapon against the C'tan.)


3. Imperium/Tau: It's a tie here, it really is. The Imperium can do a lot of things the Tau can't, and vice versa. The Tau are likely to beat the Imperium eventually, but that hasn't happened yet.Correct, I agree.


4. Orks. Granted, they have some really incredible stuff, but it doesn't compare very well to some of the other races' stuff. As with all things, the Orks could pull ahead of other races really quickly if they could just focus, and not lose all sorts o' tek whenever the mek that's on an inventin' spree kicks the bucket.Yes, the Brainboyz encoded as much technical knowledge into Ork DNA as possible before their slave-warrior race took them over and ate what remained of their brain-enhancing mega fungus. The Brainboyz could easily be on par with the Eldar for technology, if they hadn't been reduced to the level of Snotlings.


The reason they aren't as advanced any more is because of the Fall. It's the only way to explain it. They should be on a par, or even far in advance, of the Necrons, but they clearly aren't. Their non-Warp technology seems relatively clunky when you consider that they are supposed to have been developing it for tens of millions of years.That's possible. Some info says they could "quench suns", etc. Realm of Chaos says that pre-Fall Eldar could travel through time.

On the other hand, remember that humans also had an incredible level of knowledge during the Dark Age of Technology. So there definitely is not a linear progression with this; sometimes a race's tech level is enhanced, and at other times it degrades.

MvS
06-06-2008, 15:11
The Eldar didn't create the Webway; that's something they inherited from the Old Ones, apparently
Actually, I seem to remember references to them inheriting 'Warp Gate' technology from the Old Ones and then perfecting it into the Webway, which is a diiferent thing altogether when judging their pre-Fall tech(nomancy). :)

DarkMatter2
06-06-2008, 15:12
You know the extremely overused line: "Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"?

That is exactly where the Necrons are. Their mastery of the physical universe is beyond challenge, regardless of how long any other race has to try and develop.

The Necrons are Godlike in their mastery of tech, but I don't think it will be enough to stop the onset of the Tyranid Hive Fleets that will spell the end of the 40k universe.

MvS
06-06-2008, 15:18
The Necrons are Godlike in their mastery of tech, but I don't think it will be enough to stop the onset of the Tyranid Hive Fleets that will spell the end of the 40k universe.
Oh I don't know, thousands of intelligent missiles fired into Hive Fleets and Norn Queens containing an artificially made non-biological silicon-based microbe that replicates in the quadrillions and is 'programmed' to aggressively target and destroy cells of anything with Tyranid DNA would stand a good chance.

The Hive Mind could not adapt to it quickly enough as it would not have any DNA or protiens that could be analysed in order for the Tyranids to 'evolve' an immunity...

DarkMatter2
06-06-2008, 15:24
Oh I don't know, an artificially made non-biological silicon-based microbe that replicates in the quadrillions and is 'programmed' to target and destroy cells of anything with Tyranid DNA would stand a good chance.

The Hive Mind could not adapt to it quickly enough as it would not have any DNA or protiens that could be analysed in order for the Tyranids to adapt to it...

The Nids have a good track record of standing up to those sorts of sneaky attempts to use their own nature against them.

Judging just from a Mythos standpoint, I think it is clear what the Nids represent in 40k: the unavoidable juggernaught that brings doom to all.

The Nids are the faction that reminds us there is a bigger universe out there, and even the all mighty Necrons with their unstoppable tech are merely bit players in the larger tapestry of the cosmos.

I base the likelihood of ultimate Tyranid victory on the reasoning:

1. We know the Nids have conquered multiple other galaxies
2. If there are several races with high levels of technology in this galaxy, its only likely to assume that there were also such civilizations in the galaxies the Nids ate.
3. The Nids ate them anyway.

As far as I know, there is only one recorded instance of Necron vs. Tyranid battle, and that was when both of them simultaneously invaded an Imperial forgeworld (it has a picture in the Nid codex) and the Nids won.

MvS
06-06-2008, 15:46
Well we also have images of Hive Fleets actively avoiding a Necron World.

There's also nothing to say that the Tyranids weren't the first to evolve into being an interstellar species in the other galaxies, or at least in their 'home' galaxy. For species in other galaxies who they met who were also inter-stellar, they were perhaps the most advanced species and so won out in the end.

The Necrontyr and the C'tan may be unique in terms of technology and abilities in the various galaxies the Tyranids have been to before. Yes that might sound unlikely, but remember that the imagery is focussed on the 40K galaxy as the most interesting and important one in the 40K universe - it wouldn't be any other way. If more interesting and 'cooler' things were happening in other galaxies, then they would be the focus of the 40K imagery.

I think that there are several species/adversaries that represent the 'doom' on the 40K galaxy and each, if you follow their imagery to the enth degree, stand a good chance of beating the others. It's just difficult when you start trying to pursue them all that far in conjunction with each other.

Anyway, on my original point, the Tyranids seem to rely on biological advancement and so they are vulnerable to non-biological attacks. Normally this doesn't matter to them, because if you fire a billion explosive missiles at them killing trillions of individual organisms, this will still never be enough to stop the endless tide.

However, all this means is that conventional warfare against the Tyranids doesn't really work, as indeed Inquisitor Kryptman has been quoted as saying.

Gene-coded biological/germ warfare might be a good start, but the Tyranids would adapt to any bacteria or virus in time. But artificial 'biology', that relies on self-replicating microscopic machines instead of biological microbes might stand a good chance against the Tyranids.

They could be made to act like a supremely virulent disease, only they wouldn't be one. They would be an invasion of machines - in the case I gave, phenomenally advanced, microscopic, living-metal Necron machines.

If a Necron war fleet could manage to teleport into the heart of the Tyranid fleet (because they don't use the Warp and so would not have to worry about Warp distortions throwing them off course), fire off an immense arsenal of massive Gauss energy beams and thousands upon thousands of small-mass high-yield torpedoes packed full of there non-biological 'disease' right into the heart of the Norn Queens, then that Tyranid fleet would be in serious trouble.

Mind you, the same sorts of arguments can be deployed for other 'Great Enemies' in 40K. What if a Greater Daemon managed to possess a Norn Queen and direct the whole Hivefleet into a Warpstorm of matter-melting power?

In other words, there are lots of ways GW can delay or change the 'inevitable' if they want to.

Francis29
06-06-2008, 15:50
i'd give first prize to necrons: gauss weponary, instant teleportation withour the warp
second prize goes to eldar: sun level heat containment fields, webway and physic engineering
third prize goes to imperium: teleportation and insanely reliable guns
fourth prize goes to tau: enourmous skimmers and insane troop level guns
fifth is chaos: all warp based technology
sixth is orks and nids: instinctive mastery of technology in orks case and extreme biotechnology for the nids but it isn't a level that can be measured

DarkMatter2
06-06-2008, 15:55
Well we also have images of Hive Fleets actively avoiding a Necron World.

I'm pretty sure that has been widely misreported - Hive Fleet Kraken (or Leviathan perhaps?) scooted around the Dyson Sphere containing the insane God the Outsider. Which is much different than avoiding a generic tomb world.

After all, the Nids invaded Medusa V which was a Tomb World.


There's also nothing to say that the Tyranids weren't the first to evolve into being an interstellar species in the other galaxies, or at least in their 'home' galaxy. For species in other galaxies who they met who were also inter-stellar, they were perhaps the most advanced species and so won out in the end.

In what sense would the Tyranids be the "most advanced"? They seem to win through evolving and sheer weight of numbers, which they do better than anyone else.


The Necrontyr and the C'tan may be unique in terms of technology and abilities in the various galaxies the Tyranids have been to before. Yes that might sound unlikely, but remember that the imagery is focussed on the 40K galaxy as the most interesting and important one in the 40K universe - it wouldn't be any other way.

I think this is the assumption that the Tyranids are specifically there to get rid of.

The fact is that there is no reason at all to assume that the 40k galaxy is "special" in any way shape or form. Its racked with war sure, and there are lots of important Empires rising and falling constantly, but then you have things like the Tyranids (who themselves may be some sort of universal elemental destroyer, as the name Great Devourer seems to suggest a sort of mythic status) showing up who come from elsewhere.

In my mind the message of the Nids has always been "You and your God Emperor and your Chaos Gods and your C'tan are nothing but ants on the universal scale, and the Great Devourer is here to cleanse you."

As to the uniqueness of the 40k galaxy, the only comment on that, AFAIK, comes from the novel Space Marine where they invaded a Tyranid hive ship and found the 8,000 year old remains of some crab like entity whose civilization the Nids had destroyed. Apparently the thing looked quite nasty, and the Marines came to the conclusion that the other galaxies were much like the Milky Way: wracked with death and war.

MvS
06-06-2008, 16:30
I'm pretty sure that has been widely misreported - Hive Fleet Kraken (or Leviathan perhaps?) scooted around the Dyson Sphere containing the insane God the Outsider. Which is much different than avoiding a generic tomb world.
That's what it was! Thanks.

Even so, the Hive Mind can clearly be scared, or at least completely put off, by something in the 40K galaxy. I don't imagine the Outsider is completely unique in this sense.


In what sense would the Tyranids be the "most advanced"? They seem to win through evolving and sheer weight of numbers, which they do better than anyone else.
That's pretty much what I meant. Their means of 'advancing' to overcome any challenge was more developed and quick acting than any others that. The weight of numbers issue breaks down when all forms of potential aggression against the Tyranids are considered. it's their ability to adapt in no time at all added to their weight of numbers that gives them the edge I think.


I think this is the assumption that the Tyranids are specifically there to get rid of.

I didn't mean that. I meant that the Tyranids are in the imagery as another means of getting rid of the Imperium, in terms of narrative logic at least. In this sense they are alongside the ever-present threat of the Primordial Annihilator (Chaos) and the still dormant legions of the massively populous and supremely advanced Necrons - along with their seemingly indestructable 'gods'.

All these 'Great Enemies' tend to be measured against the Imperium rather than each other. each of them is more insidious, dangerous and powerful than the Imperium. But if you pitch them against each other... well the imagery tends to be a bit flexible (if I'm charitable) or contradictory (if I'm not) about which is the more powerful and likely to 'win'.

The reason I put forward the 40K galaxy as the most important galaxy in the GW setting is because it is the only relevant galaxy in the 40K setting - or rather, it IS the 40K setting.

Each of the Great Enemies of the Imperium represent another aspect of the put-you-in-your-place relativity that you mention in conjunction with the Tyranids.

Yes the Tyranids represent an extra-galactic all-comsuming mass orgamism of impossible proportions that has no identity and culture as we understand. This is supposed to underline the futility (on the grand scale) of personality, politics, culture, religion, individuality and everything else.

The Necrons are supposed to highlight the idea that however knowledgeable, advanced any of the races think they are and however dangerous and dominant they think they are, there are always older, more knowledgeable, more dominant, more advanced and unstoppable, seen-it-all-before-and-destroyed-it, unforgiving and brutal father-figure alien civilisations who regard us as little more than insects as they wait in the darkness of space to reclaim everything the younger races have 'borrowed'.

Then Chaos. Chaos represents humanity's own shadow. It's our own self-destructiveness and our failings made manifest, even before any aliens come along to get us. Chaos was 'made' by intelligence and culture, and it is the disasterous flipside of everything we are as sentient intelligent, emotive and cultural beings.

All these enemies represent different meta-issues, and so although it is fun to pick one as more dangerous than the others, i think it really can be argued any which way we want with relatively equal 'accuracy', as far as that is possible with 40K imagery.

DarkMatter2
06-06-2008, 16:44
The weight of numbers issue breaks down when all forms of potential aggression against the Tyranids are considered.

Not necessarily. There is numbers, and then there is NUMBERS. GW has gone out of their way to stress that there aren't just LOTS of Nids, there are so many that "if every bullet in the Imperium killed a Tyranid it still wouldn't be near enough" and that there was a Hive Fleet for every planet in the galaxy.




The reason I put forward the 40K galaxy as the most important galaxy in the GW setting is because it is the only relevant galaxy in the 40K setting - or rather, it IS the 40K setting.

That doesn't mean that you can't evaluate and the explore the ramifications of there being other galaxies and likely a myriad of other civilizations, some of them likely larger and more powerful than anything in the Milky Way.


Each of the Great Enemies of the Imperium represent another aspect of the put-you-in-your-place relativity that you mention in conjunction with the Tyranids...
All these enemies represent different meta-issues, and so although it is fun to pick one as more dangerous than the others, i think it really can be argued any which way we want with relatively equal 'accuracy', as far as that is possible with 40K imagery.

I think your point is true and shows a lot of insight...but it applies less to the Tyranids than you would make it appear.

GW stresses that the Nids are out for everyone's blood. Things like "The only glimmer of hope for the Imperium is that the Tyranids wish to devour all biomass in the galaxy" "The Tyranids represent the eventual extinction of not just humanity but all the alien races of the galaxy" Nids are shown in conflict with Eldar, Orks, Tau, Necrons, etc. in campaigns that have real effects on the background.

The Nids arent just like the Chaos Space Marines (who seem to care about nothing but the Imperium), the background does focus mostly on them attacking the Imperium, but there certainly are major instances of the Nids effects on other races, to an extent that isn't common for all the others.

Even the Chaos Space Marines seem rather pissy, "The Gods won't be denied their prize!" is basically saying, "This is our turf buddy, back off!"

Clearly the Necrons and the Tyranids have divergent goals - the Necrons wish to enslave, the Tyranids want to eat. The Tyranids have two possible roads to victory, both that heartily screw the Crons over, they can either meet them head on and get some iron in their diet, or they can simply eat everything and the leave the Necrons with a barren galaxy forever and ever.

The_Outsider
06-06-2008, 16:50
Clearly the Necrons and the Tyranids have divergent goals - the Necrons wish to enslave, the Tyranids want to eat. The Tyranids have two possible roads to victory, both that heartily screw the Crons over, they can either meet them head on and get some iron in their diet, or they can simply eat everything and the leave the Necrons with a barren galaxy forever and ever.

Conversely if the necrons get their way its going to suck for the hivemind big time, to the extent that the hivemind might even die off (worst case scenario in the necron end game is the hivemind still exists but cannot communicate with the horde (though this is strange as the hivemind IS the horde)).

The tyranids eat and mvoe on, the necrons set up a slave camp that none can escape unless they can fight the necrons either with overwhelming numbers or can develop technology to take them on without the warp (ref: The Great Plan).

Xisor
06-06-2008, 16:53
Mvs,

As a little aside to the discussion: Lengths of time.

It was your primary assertion for asserting the dominance of the pre-Fall Eldar (better part of 60 million years dominating the galaxy). The timescale outlined in Codex: Necrons, whilst pretty vague, seems to insinuate somewhat (as I recall) that the Necron/C'tan dominance of the Milky Way (i.e. during the time when the C'tan turned upon themselves) was actually a pretty long time. I.e. ~65MYears was only the 'end' of the War in Heaven (marked by the 'plagues'), and given the timescales that Old Ones and C'tan work on, it might have been waged for some many millions of years.

My conjecture is that perhaps the C'tan/Necrons had time enough to rule the galaxy for millions of years too?

So we know that the C'tan at least have no interest in wiping out everything (Necrons, however, do have a burning hatred for all life that might interfere there!), and if the above is true, we can guess that they're also pretty capable when it comes to galactic-farming (sans civil war).

Furthermore, if I'm not mistaken, Asdrubael Vect alluded to slumbering powers which the Eldar Civilisation had intelligently left untouched but for which 'foolish mon'keigh bumbling might doom us all' or something to that effect. In later days I took this to refer to the C'tan, but it really could be any unspeakable threat.

(Some sort of malfunction, perhaps, during the Horus Heresy might've been one of these 'Absolutely do not push' things going wrong which attracts the Tyranids, Tyranids being Universal Insects when there's a Universal Giant Gorilla sitting just beyond the swarm...?)

Anyhow, the later part is largely not important, but the former proposal on C'tan dominance, I think, would give a clear indicator as to who one-ups who, especially given Vect's lies/tales/turht-is-scarier-than-fiction/whatever!

MvS
06-06-2008, 17:05
The timescale outlined in Codex: Necrons... seems to insinuate... that the Necron/C'tan dominance of the Milky Way... was actually a pretty long time. I.e. ~65MYears was only the 'end' of the War in Heaven (marked by the 'plagues'), and given the timescales that Old Ones and C'tan work on... perhaps the C'tan/Necrons had time enough to rule the galaxy for millions of years too?
I'm inclined to agree.

I don't doubt that the C'tan/Old Ones ruled the galaxy for millions of years. I suppose my point was that the Eldar were also dominant and ruling the galaxy for tens of millions of years after the C'tan went to sleep and the Old Ones went bye-bye, so the pre-Fall Eldar technology would likely be on a far higher level than it appears to be in the current depictions - possibly up to a standard that rivals even the first races (like the Necrontyr).


if I'm not mistaken, Asdrubael Vect alluded to slumbering powers which the Eldar Civilisation had intelligently left untouched but for which 'foolish mon'keigh bumbling might doom us all' or something to that effect. In later days I took this to refer to the C'tan, but it really could be any unspeakable threat.
Of even mutliples of them. Who's to say?

The_Outsider
06-06-2008, 17:11
I'm inclined to agree.

I don't doubt that the C'tan/Old Ones ruled the galaxy for millions of years.

Even though (in a funny way linking back to the "what were the necrontyr like?" thread) the necron codex mentions that they spent millenia just talking to the C'tan before they even did anything (long before even the star bridge).

Now while this period is vague and millions of years could be a stretch, it certainly is a several thousand years of Old One dominace at the minimum.

Xisor
06-06-2008, 21:53
The_Outsider,

That's another very interesting point. I'd again raise the mention, like in the other thread, of the short story Blood Music (forget the author). With it in mind the C'tan/Necron/Old Ones thing is really...illuminated. It's not exactly a parallel, but it is quite a relevent story.

MvS,

Again, very interesting stuff.

It does seem I really like the Necrons, they continue to surprise me!

ViperMagnum357
06-06-2008, 22:32
I think the thread has gotten a little sidetracked, but on the note of what all the enemies of man represent in the larger picture: the Orks are the embodiment of eternal conflict-ceaseless, meaningless, unending war, between themselves and everyone and everything else. The Tau represent the upstart, the position previously held by man. They represent the threat of a new, ambitious, inquisitive and ultimately naive newcomer to the established races, only able to compete and a threat because of their vision and belief they have a good grasp on the way things work. The Eldar represent what the Old Ones were to the Necrontyr, and what the dying are to humanity. A mighty civilization fallen because they grew complacent and secure in they power, while their enemies multiplied and outmaneuvered them-now just a shattered remnant of a remnant, and a dire warning of the end of the road man is stumbling down. Chaos is perhaps the simplest and most complex: A twisted reflection of the worst aspects of humanity, magnified and given form. In an uncaring galaxy and the fallout of perpetual war, the worst possibilities are given manifest, and threaten man with his own desires.
The Necrons are the representative of no matter how powerful you are, there is always someone or something out there that will eat you for breakfast-there is always going to be someone more powerful, numerous, advanced, knowledgable, experienced, and just plain malicious. The Great Devourer is the epitome of this idea of an uncaring universe-not so much an enemy to defeat as a force of nature too vast to comprehend and so powerful it cannot be fought in the conventional sense-it represents the eventual end of all life, and as mentioned the futility of culture, civilization, and the pointlessness of these spats man calls conflict.

Firaxin
07-06-2008, 03:26
This really really varies depending on field of science.

Artificial Intelligence: Mankind had the Iron Men > Tau have drones > Necrons possibly, but I don't thinks so. They're souls bound to machines > Eldar use spirit stones > orks have nothing

Environmental Technology: Tyranids > Mankind > Eldar > Everyone else

Nuclear Tecnology: Pretty lame in this setting, Mankinds the only ones to have it, afaik

Nanotechnology Mankind's digital weapons, for one (yes they stole it from the jokaero, but I haven't seen any other race using anything like it) > Necrons? >/= Tau > Everyone else

Energy Efficiency etc: Necrons have the dyson sphere > Mankind has lascells, russ engines can run efficiently on grass clippings, power armor > Tau >/= Eldar

Communications: Necrons are instantaneous, afaik > Eldar = Mankind = Tyranids, all three use interstellar psychic communications > Tau have to send drones = Orks

Construction/Manufacturing etc: Mankind, because they can keep a galaxy spanning Empire adequately equiped and their tech looks like **** but still works > Eldar use very efficient bonesinging, but this doesn't happen on a large scale > Tau but they're a very small empire; Orks are debateable as to where they fit on this list > Necrons don't build anything anymore

Agricultural/Mining: Tyranids > Mankind terraforming > Eldar > Orks use photosynthesis instead? > Tau mostly trade > Necrons don't need food

Educational: Mankind has hypno-indoctrination and can surgically plant computers into peoples brains > Eldar aspects > Tau have a good society for the individual > Necrons = Orks neither need to learn anything

Biotechnology: Tyranids duh > Mankind have space marines and bio-weapons > Orks > Everyone else

Metallurgy: Necrons > Eldar wraithbone > Mankind > Tau (compare how bulky iridium armor is to artificer armor)

Anti-grav: Necron inertialess dampening > Eldar > Mankind > Tau have some limited anti-grav but not full, their battlesuits and tanks require large supporting thrusters as well

Atmoshperics: Eldar > Mankind = Tau, mankind's are far faster but not quite as manueverable > Orks > Necrons don't even use atmospheric craft, afaik

Space Travel/Transportation: Necrons > Eldar Webway > Mankind > Tau don't even have full warp mastery yet

Weapons: This is the most debatable... Necrons have their gauss weaponry, Tau have their Railguns, Eldar have their shurikens, and Mankind has... basically everything. I'd put mankind in a tentative first as they've mastered everything but gauss weaponry, and necrons seem only capable of using gauss weaponry

If then we assign each race numbers, a 1 for coming in first and a 2 for coming in second and so on, we get the top three to be:

Mankind: 26
Eldar: 33
Necrons: 37

That's not including weaponry, but from what I can see mankind is far enough ahead that even if it were in last place it would still be leading as the most technologically advanced race.

Koryphaus
07-06-2008, 04:54
I don't doubt that the C'tan/Old Ones ruled the galaxy for millions of years. I suppose my point was that the Eldar were also dominant and ruling the galaxy for tens of millions of years after the C'tan went to sleep and the Old Ones went bye-bye, so the pre-Fall Eldar technology would likely be on a far higher level than it appears to be in the current depictions - possibly up to a standard that rivals even the first races (like the Necrontyr).


I don't think that the C'Tan ever ruled the galaxy per se, rather they ate stars until the Necrons developed the technology to grant them physical forms. Certainly, the Old Ones and the Necrontyr were the technological powerhouses of the Galaxy for a long time. The Old Ones came before the Necrontyr, and the Necrontyr's science advanced so quickly that they caught up to and then surpassed the Old Ones. That is how they were able to wage war on the Old Ones, their technology was far in advance, yet they couldn't make any headway against the Old Ones due to their complete mastery of the Warp and the Webway. Which is what spurred on the Necrontyr to create the physical C'Tan.

Pre-Fall Eldar technology is exactly the same as it is now (I don't mean that it has stagnated by the way). The Technology of the Eldar during the War in Heaven was entirely different - they used their incredibly psychic powers to do everything, from cultivating their own webway tunnels to engineering horrifically destructive weapons of war. It was this use of psychic power that brought on the enslaver plague, destroying the powerbase of the Old Ones and forcing the C'Tan to retreat into hiding. Since those times, the Eldar have had to re-learn how to do everything with their hands, instead of their minds, growing wraithbone and using the webway rather than open warp travel etc..

MvS
07-06-2008, 10:28
Regarding the C'tan, weren't their references to some of them setting themselves up as gods to whole civilisations, creating vassals, slaves and snacks, probably to help them in their war against the psychic races (the Old Ones and co.)


Pre-Fall Eldar technology is exactly the same as it is now

I agree with your point that the first Eldar civilisation was mostly psychic/sorcerous - perhaps a bit like an ancient Greec/Rome cocktail with lots of magic thrown in. I also agree that the Enslaver Plague wiped out this first Eldar civlisation and that it took the Eldar a long time to get back up to where they had been before it.

That said, we're told they had over 60 million years to do so. Look how far we humans have got in terms of scientific understanding and technology since Aristotle gave his first public address. In about 2,300 years we've got this far. In fact look how quickly our technology has accelerated since the industrial revolution just over a century ago.

If the Eldar's technology base as depicted post-Fall is of the same level and standard as it was pre-Fall after millions and millions of years of experimentation, inter-species communication (with the Demiurge, Jokaero and whatnot), then the Eldar must have been pretty lazy and blinkered for longer than most mammals even existed on earth, let alone primates or humans as a distinct species.

I would imagine that the Eldar were in decline before the moment of Slaanesh birth. I don't imagine that the bulk of the Eldar civilisation immediately pre-Fall was as advanced or interested in science (or anything other than self-gratification) as it was, say, 100,000 years before the Fall, or even 10,000 years before the Fall. The fact that they didn't seem to care much about humanity as it expanded across the galaxy speaks volumes to me. I don't think there are any mentions of Eldar/Human interaction, either warlike or positive, from the Dark Age of technology are there?

I think the birth of Slaanesh and the instantaneous destruction of the Eldar almost as an entire species, along with most of their worlds, was the super-massive 'last straw' that broke that particular camel's back.

I see the Craftworld Eldar as being similar in some ways to the first European settlers in the USA mixed with the Japanese during their epochs of isolationism - so a bit like pioneer/refugees/cultural puritans who gathered what resources they could before fleeing the corruption, madness and persecution of the Eldar Metropole to start a new life in the stars, far away from the self-destructive and self-damning insanity of the rest of their kind.

I see the Dark Eldar as being like the strong-minded and driven but otherwise unprepared survivors of a massive air-raid, or nuclear strike, grabbing whatever resources they could find and fleeing into the cave-riddled mountains, even as their conqueror-enemy sent in ground troops in to flush the them out and finish them all off.

Hence, for me, why the Eldar as a whole don't have technology or resources that are a match to how they must have been at their technomantic height, which I think is a long time after the War in Heaven.

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
07-06-2008, 16:49
Most people seem to be comparing based on understanding of their technology.

My list is strictly based on technology used.

1. Necrons: They access dimensions no one else knows of for space travel. Gauess weaponry is by far the most versitile weapon and living metal is in a category of its own. They have mastered teleportation on a scale beyond anyone else (phase out / the item necron lords use to jump around / Monliths).

2. Eldar: The creation of the webway, wraithbone, spirt stones, anti-grav tech and their lance weaponry (pulsars included) has to put them towards the top of this list.

3. Imperium: They may not understand the technology anymore and are barely able to maintain some of it properly, but they are still very advanced. Despite how dangerous warp travel can be, they have made it relatively safe and reliable. They have mastered genetic engineering. The make extended use of servitors (a form of drone) throughout the Imperium for all kinds of tasks. They still have plasma tech, anti-grav tech (not common though), void shields, power armour, Nova Cannons and all of their technology has stood the test of time and lasted thousands of years.

4. Orks: Ork technology levels vary depending on their needs and who they are using it agianst. The Mek boys seem cabable of creating teleportation tech on a level surpassing the range and scale of the Imperium. They have created Titans (gargants) that run on steam power. They have their own "void" shield tech for those titans. They are the only race that has a man portable force field capable of covering more then an individual. Despite the crude looking aspect of their tech, Orks are extremely resilent in recycling materals for use (give a mek boy a junkyard and he can outfit an army). Even though most of the Ork population travels randomly within space hulks, they are capable traveling through the warp where they want to.

5. Tau: The tau are approaching a level of anti-grav tech that the Eldar have reached. Their weapons are advanced. However, they can't travel through the warp for extended periods of time. They have no teleportation technology. The communication within the Empire is limited to drones. Manta's maybe comparable to titans, but lack the range on the weapons of the manta and lack of more then 1 real Titan Killer weapon is a problem against the larger titans. They are a very young race however and still progressing. The other races all possess some kind of tech that the Tau do not, so I have to place them at the bottom of the list.

Holy_Combat
07-06-2008, 23:41
I don't think that the Imperium is as technologically backwards as people believe. Before anyone starts to cry foul for the lack of research in the Imperium, we need to remember the total amount that they actually have. Mankind has one of the most important technological advantage: the ability to cheaply, efficiently, and reliably produce their common weapons, vehicles, bionics, and many other items. The good ol' Lemon Russ tanks can be churned out by the thousand, and last hundreds of years.

The Tau just look sleek and shiny compared to the Imperium. However as said earlier, the Tau have not even entered the Warp and does not have psychic communication. Even their skimmer tech is basically a modern JA-35 aircraft retro engine. Yes they can hover, and its common, but its not a "hovercraft." We could in theory make a Hammerhead style tank today, so its not as really futuristic as it appears.

DawnLord0
08-06-2008, 03:14
The Imperiums ability to mass produce their equipment does not automatically give them the understanding of the technology or the ability to advance it. For example the organization that controls the Imperiums tech the Adeptus Mechanicus is a Technotheocracy. When mankind hit the The Age of Strife and the STC were lost the only way technology could be maintained was to reduce as all knowledge into ritual and songs. Over time it became a full blown religion with even the simplest procedure becoming a sacred ritual. The Mechanicus is incapable of advancing or even reverse engineering there own tech because anyone doing so would be declared a heretic and most likely killed.

When judging a races Tech level we have to look at all facets. Not just one. I'm not sure where to put the Imperium. On one hand they have the largest industrial base of all the races. But on the other hand they have almost no understanding of there technology.

Now about Holy_Combat's Tau comments. Quote(The Tau just look sleek and shiny compared to the Imperium.) Not sure about shiny but sleek is a good thing. Sleek aircraft in the atmosphere are faster and more agile. In terms of armour having sloped facings is a good thing. Take a look at the front of a Hammerhead Tank. Its almost all sloped to better deflect incoming fire.

Quote(the Tau have not even entered the Warp and does not have psychic communication.) The Tau have warp travel, just not as fast as everyone else. But you do have a point with the Tau's ability to communicate long range.

Quote(Even their skimmer tech is basically a modern JA-35 aircraft retro engine. Yes they can hover, and its common, but its not a "hovercraft.") Tau skimmers are grav-tanks, not hovercraft. [A hovercraft is an amphibious vehicle or craft, designed to travel over any sufficiently smooth surface supported by a cushion of slowly moving, high-pressure air, ejected downwards against the surface close below it.] Grav-tanks are capable of traversing very rough terrain and even limited flight.

Quote(We could in theory make a Hammerhead style tank today, so its not as really futuristic as it appears.) We already have made the Hammerhead in theory. Its in the 40k game. Just because we can do something in theory does not mean we can make it in real life. The hammerhead requires advanced tech we do not have. Like the ability to build or even mount a railgun on a tank. We don't have the ability to build a power plant small enough to fit on a tank and still generate the necessary power. We don't even have a way to get a tank to float.

Koryphaus
08-06-2008, 04:33
Everyone continues to rate the Webway as the creation of the Eldar. It wasn't, it was built by the Old Ones, and was the only way they were able to hold their own against the superior starship and weapons technology of the Necrons.

Im not sure who to rate at the top of he technology tree in the 40kverse, so I'll put the Necrontyr and the Old Ones as a joint 1st place, due to their use of different styles of technology, rather than either being distinctly more advanced than the other.

1st: Old Ones/Necrontyr
3rd: Eldar (Craftworld/Dark)
4th:Imperium
5th: Tau
6th: Orks
7th: Tyranids

I would say that the Tyranids hardly rate a mention on the technology standings: Calling the Tyranids technologically advanced is the same as saying a virus is advanced. They do what they do, they do it naturally. They evolve to meet their challenges and mutate to survive.

Orks are tricky, they are a bit like the nids in many ways (there's a ********* of them, they're damn hard to kill off, and they're pretty naturally resourcefull. They do however have a natural ability with technology, thanks to the engineering of the Old Ones.

The Tau aren't all that advanced, they're like Humans, pre DAoT. They have the potential to rule the galaxy, but have yet to get that far. Human Technology far surpasses the Tau in some respects, but obviously we have ceased to advance our technology. Given a sufficient amount of time, the Tau will outclass us completely.

Humans, at the height of the DAot, were possibly as advanced in some areas of techonology as the Eldar (though I stress only possibly, it is quite unlikely). The STC system is obviously very highly advanced technology, though that may be one of the reasons Human Tech regressed, because we stopped needing to think. We could input our needs, and the STC would spit out the solution, without our having to develop anything else. And since the DAoT ended in the Age of Strife, we have lost that masterful system that would allow us to rule the galaxy unchallenged. Being totally reliant on the STC, we have allowed the Technology to rule us again, much as it did towards the end of the DAoT.

Captain Stern
08-06-2008, 04:35
I was reading Lovecraft's Mountains of Madness today and in it he talks about one of the Old One races who, many millions of years ago, became extremely technologically advanced through machines. They eventually ditched this method of advancement because it was stifling to their development, and instead decided to progress further by manipulating their biology and other organic matter. The same can be seen in Babylon 5 where we see the two oldest, most advanced, species (the Shadows and the Vorlons), whose technology is based on manipulation of living organic matter, lording it over all the other races who use more recognisable, conventional, artificial technology which we're all familiar with.

So, just because the Tyranids deal exclusively with organic matter doesn't mean we should view them as being technologically inferior. Quite the contrary. It's very possible the race that used to be the Tyranids very much resembled the Eldar (whose useof wraithbone is reminiscent of the Tyranids and their bio-weapons) or the Necrontyr, but 'advanced' beyond that to become what they are today.

AllisterCaine
08-06-2008, 07:03
Orks last? no way.

They have teleporta and forcefield tech, they're whole race is a technological marvel of genetic engineering.

they just dont know it lol

Yeah, but they only work because they think they do. Its like an Ork spaceship, if an Ork was actually smart enough to figure how the ship is even capable of flight, it would implode upon itself because technologically, it shouldnt even be working at all.

Champsguy
08-06-2008, 07:45
You can't really compare most of them, because everyone uses different forms of technology. They all have a different "tech tree" so to speak.

The Eldar never developed the internal combustion engine. Ever. They never developed electricity. They never developed nuclear power or nuclear weapons. They didn't develop cell phones either. Their technology is not compatable with those things. The Eldar (and the Dark Eldar) developed wraithbone and psychic technology. They pull all the energy they need directly from the Warp. If an Eldar wants to plug in his TV so he can watch "Mama's Family", he attaches it to a small piece of wraithbone, and it draws all needed power directly from the Warp. Nobody else knows how to do this. The Necrons scratch their heads and say "huh?", because it doesn't work according to Necron science.

Necrons don't understand Warp travel. They don't have it, can't use it, and don't want to use it. They have their own tech. They use FTL drives to just GO where they want, through regular normal space. They have gauss weapons (that aren't really all that superior in effect to weapons like meltaguns or wraithguns, just different) that the Imperium thinks violate the laws of physics. But really, again, the Necrons have developed their own technology tree that is different from any other race.

The Tyranids have biotechnology that is more advanced than any of the other races. They maintain a level of coordination and cooperation that no other race could ever hope to achieve. The Nids are the only race that has actively changed its weaponry and soldiery in anything approaching a real-time manner. They don't use motorcycles or grav-tanks, because their technology didn't develop that way. But you can bet that any of the races who got their hands on Tyranid gene modification technology would by utterly stunned (including the Eldar and Necrons).

The Imperium has a massive level of technology. It is simply too spread out, too disorganized, too superstitious to have anything approaching a standardized system. The Imperium has graviton guns and conversion beamers, vortex missiles, teleporters, void shields, and a galaxy-wide lighthouse. Their technology is phenomenal. It just happens to be controlled by a group of zealots who wish to keep it all to themselves. In its own way, the Imperium is more technologically advanced than the Eldar or Necrons. Those advances simply can't be put to use because of the political structure of the Imperium.

The Tau are the exact opposite of the Imperium. Their technology is actually substantially lower in many ways than that of the other races. However, they use the scientific method. They understand exactly what they are doing. There is no political structure preventing them from making full use of their weapons.

All the races have technologies that are unique to their civilization. Each is thus more advanced in its own way. Comparison between the races is hard.

MvS
08-06-2008, 10:21
But the Tyranids aren't a 'race' as such.

The individual organisms could be called a species I suppose, but they all have one shared identity and 'mind'. They form a super-organism following a basic, though massively scaled, 'eat and reproduce' biological imperative. They are a quasi Dawkinsian 'selfish gene' made manifest in the most monstrous terms. Their survival, growth and spread are the only important things in the universe (to the Tyranid imperative at least) and nothing can stand in the way of this survival, growth and spread.

Just because the Tyranids somehow evolved to a point where they didn't require the development of individual intelligence to any great degree, and also just because they don't have to wait for natural selection to change their biology to fit new environments, doesn't mean that they chose to pursue biological technology at some point in the distant past.

The whole imagery of the Tyranids is that of a hive with a hive 'mind', where no part of the hive collective is more important than any other part. Everything is subserviant to the inter-galactic whole, and the inter-galactic whole is a process as much as it is an organism.

That process is survival - though not passive survival in the sense that they won't bother anyone else if everyone else promises not to bother them. Tyranids represent aggressive survival, in the sense that if you are not part of the Tyranid genome and hive mind then you are either a resource to use so that the Tyranid genome and hive mind can sustain itself and grow, or you are a potential rival for the resources the Tyranid imperative seeks and therefore something that needs to be overcome.

This is different from the personality driven choices of the Old Ones and the Necrontyr (and perhaps even the C'tan). A mix of bio-tech, psi/Warp-tech and machine-tech that the Old Ones might have had is very different, therefore , from the fast adaptivity or the genetic parasite that is the Tyranid super-organism. I think.

Eldar

I get what you are saying Champsguy and I like it. However, I don't think the Eldar rely solely on the Warp for all their energy needs. It just wouldn't be practicable and doesn't seem to fit completely with what little we know of their tech.

Perhaps millions of years ago before the Enslaver Plague this was the case, but saturating Realspace with so much Warp energy resulted in all sorts of bad stuff happening and I would have thought that the Eldar were forced to learn how to adapt and discover tech that didn't rely solely on the Warp.

For instance, the Talismans of Vaul could be adapted by the Imperium to become space-stations (Blackstone Fortresses), so although I am sure that the Imperium didn't understand the Eldar's technology there were at least elements of it that shared similar principles that could be adapted in some basic fashion.

I think that for the Eldar psychic power, psionic resonances and pure Warpcraft are the catalysts of their technology, but not the be-all and end all. It would be hard not to have a grasp of electricity or fusion, for instance, because even if a star-faring and super-advanced civilisation doesn't utilise certain things to any great degree it its manufactured technologies, by merit of the fact they are star faring and super advanced means that they have at least some scientific base and some understanding of the natural processes they see in the galaxy around them.

I mean the Eldar don't look at stars and say that they are all the actual tears of Isha and that's why they glow. They look at the stars and know that they glow because they are naturally occuring super-massive nuclear reactors of burning gas, which are ALSO, from another way of seeing, the tears of Isha (if that makes any sense).

So although the science/technology/technomancy of the Eldar, the Necrons and humanity are very different indeed, there are basic principles that I'm sure each of them understand and can postulate upon, but simply don't have all the tools (or even know where to look to FIND the tools) to understand the final technological products they are looking at.

The_Outsider
08-06-2008, 11:02
You also have to remember the driving force behind each races' technology (or rather, what leads to it).

The necrontyr technology is (virtually) exclusive of envrionment, their technology was built and designed to remove their reliance on natural forces (ref: the nightbringer eating their star). It was designed also to take on possibly the most advanced species ever to exist, they couldn't take the old ones on when it came to warp technology so they put their focus on manipulating (or even breaking) the laws of pyshics.

Now eldar technology puts a great deal of emphasis on the maipulation of warp energy and how their psychic powers can manipulate reality. Eldar and he necorsn are complete opposites in what their technology is designed ot do.

Human tech is very "bigger is better". The IoM generaly lacks the ability to build super destructive man portable weaponry (a good reference here is the footnotes attached to a picture of a destroyer shooting a land raider in the necron codex). For raw destructive power none of the other races' match humanity, but nearly all the other races can field very powerful weapons (be it working by gauss or being sliced to bits from shruiken fire) at the sodler level.

Tau technology is built around firing a very small bullet very, very fast. This has lead to some very pwoerful and compact weaponry on some pretty mobile platforms, however tau do not have that great armour technology, what they do have can be pretty tough but ultimately all of the other races surpass this. Not to mention Tau also have virtually no advanced hand to hand weapons.

Orks are the odd one out - their tach advances the more advanced stuff used against them, in esscence the harder you push them the harder they push back.

Tyranids oppose all of this at a "basic" level, they do not use technology, they simply evolve to defeat a foe. This makes them incredibly self reliant and they only require very easy to access supplies (biomatter) to keep their armies marching.

biggyrock2
08-06-2008, 11:48
Necrons first; there technology reached its apex millions of years before humans, eldar, and orks came to be, and its still the most amazing/horrifically destructive technology ever.

The fact that they completely scour their tomb worlds of life, including bacteria, then created stasis tombs, and displacement fields to allow vast amounts of space in small areas.

All without the warp.

Makes a good augument for me! I go necrons too.

Grand_Marshal_Kazan
08-06-2008, 19:21
6.Chaos, plenty of tech, but its stolen and then magically made evil and therefore outside the bounds of normal laws.

Partly true but there are a few Chaos Forgeworlds which create tech including Kai guns, Defilers, Hell Blades, Hell Talons etc. These could be technology advanced as they have found the ability to mixed standard tech with chaos force.

El_Machinae
08-06-2008, 19:29
That the Necrons are the top is quite strange, given all their time. There are quite a few 'mystical' techs which the Necrons do which we probably could not do in our actual universe. That said, they are not nearly as advanced in other areas as is possible in our Universe.

The humanity of our universe is probably going to be more technologically advanced than the Necrons in many areas.

avatar of kaine
08-06-2008, 20:20
well eldar are a bit hard to place because they have good tech but you could also say that from the eldar point of veiw there is no differnce between nature and tech. wheras chaos will have thingf the imperium have lost and nids are a freak of nature. and necrons have the same wepons they've always had. C'tan do not need tech so it shoud look like this.

1.Eldar or necrons
2 .Eldar or necrons
3. Tau
4 orks (orks ain't never beat by hoomies)
5. chaos
6. imperial
7 nids

TheOverlord
08-06-2008, 20:23
What kind of deviance is this? The Eldar's so-called 'technology' is antiquated, the Tau are primitive and the Orks are far too stupid to even contend with this title.

And the Holy Astartes are without flaw and there is no such thing as Chaos Marines. The very thought is ludicrous.

Your blasphemy has been recorded and as such a time when a commisar can be reached and informed of your heresy shall your summary execution take place. Please stay in place whilst the Administratum prepares the necessary documentation. It may take a while.

Thank you for your time.

Chaplain of Chaos
08-06-2008, 20:41
1. Necrons (this is a canon fact)
2. Eldar
3. Tau
4. Imperium
5. Orks
6. Tyranids

Xisor
08-06-2008, 22:13
I'm still confused for people putting the Tau above the Imperium. In a thorough breakdown, the Tau really aren't terribly advanced. They've a well consolidated and dispersed knowledge base, but this aside I'm still...sceptical.

Starship technology really highlights this, for me. So whilst the Tau Empire isn't as technologically advanced as the Imperium of Man, I'd heartily assert that there's every possibility that an army of the Tau Empire might be quite overwhelmingly more technologically advanced than an equivalent deployment of Imperial Guard, Navy and Sororitas, say.

Similarly or even conversely, if an Adeptus Mechanicus Explorator fleet were to face-off against an Air Caste fleet, then I'd say the Tau loose out mightily. Demiurg+Tau versus said Explorator fleet? Well, I think in that case the Tau would have the advantage, but that advantage would not be of Tau origin...

Personally:
1 Necrons
2 Eldar
4 Imperium
4 Orks
5 Tau

Tyranids are too much of an interesting question to put on this scale. Excusing the fact that they are biological, for a moment, just where would we place 'em? How fast can they travel interstellarly? What is their interstellar communications like? How advanced would one of the other races need to be to project a shadow-in-the-warp-like effect? Their psychic focus is really rather potent, is this technological?

They're answers I don't have, but I wager they're bloody interesting.

Kage2020
08-06-2008, 22:31
Eldar and he necorsn are complete opposites in what their technology is designed ot do.
Personally I'm with MvS on this one. I've always found the approach that represents the (Craftworld) Eldar as being "magical faeries in space with magic" to be... I don't know. Kind of weird, especially for a game that in my mind seems to have spent so much time trying to make itself unique, while not truly falling too far from WFB/WFRP. Weird.

On my part, I see the Eldar as straddling the technological gap between the Old Ones and the C'tan, or "psychic/dynamic" and "technological/static." (Which might remind at least one or two people about some of the older discussions on Portent with regards to hypothetical crossovers with other game universes.) While the Eldar might have originally been "faeries in space," I was always fond of the background that had them going beyond the abilities of the Old Slann (rather than just being a caretaker race). That they might have been 'corrupted' by the technologies of the C'tan seems eminently reasonable to me, or otherwise that whole "If you can't beat them..."

Then again, I guess it would take the solar sails being replaced by "aetheric sails," their lasguns replaced with "fireball wands," and other such name changes for me to be convinced that they are "faeries in space." Just because it was bad science doesn't necessarily mean that the attempt to couch it in science or technobabble didn't have some indications. ;)

(Of course, I expect for lasguns to be renamed as "fireball wands" in the 5th edition rules set, where 40k is released as a much simplified appendix to Warhammer Fantasy Battle. :rolleyes: )

Then again, for games that have a "reasonable," rather than thematic, approach to technology, 40k wouldn't score very highly on that one. At least now. Maybe then as well. ;)

Kage

Edit: Oh yes, to remain on topic, for me it has always been:

1. Necrons.
1a. Eldar (not as advanced in mundane technology, but leaps ahead of the other races).
2. Dark Age of Technology human empire.
3. Adeptus Mechanicus.
3a. Ork 'gadgets,' but not the majority of their technology.
4. Imperium of Man.
4a. Tau (not as advanced overall, but with the odd field of technological endeavour ahead of the Imperium).
5. Orks.

This, of course, doesn't include many of the other races. With regards to the Tyranids, I don't even put them on the same scale.

Diamond Suns
08-06-2008, 23:16
i'm not 100% sure on this one, haven't played alot of eldar and necrons and don't know their histories all that well.

I always seemed to think that the tau where the most advanced, as the necrons didn't even invent themselfs it was a gift from their gods i am led to believe. Eldar are a dyeing race, once the most abundent race in the galaxy now reduced to skulking around with their web ways. The imperium was maybe second at the height of their power, but now it seems their belief in the machine spirit and reduced knowledge bank has led to stop experimenting with other forms of technologies. Orks just seem to steal everything and manage to make it work, most of the time i doubt they know what some of the things they have do.

It is hard i guess to pin point the most advanced race over all, all the races have their pro's and cons in technology. Such as with the Imperium certain Imperial guard armies would be more advanced then others. Some bearly able to bring a sentinal to work, while others could build their own titans from scratch.

My idea was as follows:
1. Tau Empire
2. Eldar
3. Dark Eldar
4. Necrons
5. Imperium (Space marines, Inquistition, Imperial guard)
6. Chaos (only due to lack of facilitis to repare certain machines and the fact half of them are warped beyond even knowing what a bolt pistol is)
7. Orks

The_Outsider
08-06-2008, 23:36
i'm not 100% sure on this one, haven't played alot of eldar and necrons and don't know their histories all that well.

Education Time!


I always seemed to think that the tau where the most advanced, as the necrons didn't even invent themselfs it was a gift from their gods i am led to believe.

The necrontyr (aka before they became necrons) invented all the technology themselves, the C'tan provided the idea of give up their flesh in favour of the machine - they didn't actually contribute to the necrontyr other than this fatal idea and their use as a weapon.





Eldar are a dyeing race, once the most abundent race in the galaxy now reduced to skulking around with their web ways.

Abundant? Arguable, but certainly they were unequalled when their empire existed (note this was because the necrosn were hibernating).


The imperium was maybe second at the height of their power, but now it seems their belief in the machine spirit and reduced knowledge bank has led to stop experimenting with other forms of technologies.

They were still below th eldar in tech level - even with such mighty gear as STC's.


Orks just seem to steal everything and manage to make it work, most of the time i doubt they know what some of the things they have do.

Pretty much.

Kage2020
08-06-2008, 23:51
They were still below th eldar in tech level - even with such mighty gear as STC's.
Although to be fair there is an alternate approach presented in Dark Adeptus. Of course, that might be considered a bias source, but isn't it all...?

Kage

Diamond Suns
08-06-2008, 23:51
Thanks for clearing some of that up,
I guess on the theory of the necrons hibernating, if they had not hibernated we would see bearly a fraction of the technology we now see. The Imperium but a spec if still existant, i guess the necrons 'leaving' sort of opened the window for the other races, without which i doubt any of the races would have the technology to combat them now they have returned.

Sev38
09-06-2008, 00:54
Yeah, but they only work because they think they do. Its like an Ork spaceship, if an Ork was actually smart enough to figure how the ship is even capable of flight, it would implode upon itself because technologically, it shouldnt even be working at all.

This is just plain not true. Ork meks know how their own inventions and technology work. In fact much of the knowledge is programmed into them on the genetic level. The fluff first of all doesn't say it works only because they believe it should but more says it works better because they believe it should. Secondly the one main piece of fluff that even mentions this is from the imperium point of view and is largely propaganda to explain how a seemingly barbaric race develops tech that humans can't understand or use properly and since the imperium ties religion in with technology so much of course they would explain it like this. I am really getting annoyed at how much this idea gets brought up and how much people exaggerate it when it completely comes from one small piece of fluff from the last codex.

HK-47
09-06-2008, 01:36
I agree with most of the list, but you have to be careful with your choices as bias towards your preferred faction can askew your decision.

Based on my interpretation and understanding of the fluff a say the most advance races are

1. Necron
2. Eldar: All factions
3. Imperial/Tau
4. Chaos
5. Orks
6. Tyranids

I chose the Nercons as the most advance race because they are the only race to not rely on the warp for deep space flight, and teleportaiton. The Eldar come second since they are masters of webway, and physic based technology; the infinity circuit is a perfect example of this. The Tau, and IoM share third place because dispute going down deferent roads of technological development. They are almost at the same level of technology. Then IoM doing down the cheap and long lasting, while the Tau are like modern electronic companies coming out with more advance models every few years. However the IoM head start and rudimentary ability to manipulate the warp makes it little bit more advance then the tau for the moment.

The Orks and Tyranids are at the bottom not because they are inferior just that there technology is not strong overall just in two or three district areas. Their knowledge is instinctive and therefore their is little need for then to advance past certain points expect out of necessity. The Orks are #5 though because unlike the bugs they seek to advance, but don't posses a high enough understanding to make things like A.Is or skimmers. Tyranids in my view are a reactive species they only advance through necessity and therefore can never achieve anything beyond what they come in contact with limiting what they can do.

Thats how I see it anyway, I would like to hear people's thoughts though.

Sev38
09-06-2008, 01:54
The Orks are #5 though because unlike the bugs they seek to advance, but don't posses a high enough understanding to make things like A.Is or skimmers.
though.

Just thought I would point this out as more than one person has claimed orks are incapable of making skimmers. http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180081_Ork_Datasheet_-_Minelayer.pdf
An ork skimmer and even the mines float in the fluff description.
As for A.I. Both eldar and the Imperium don't much use A.I. either but rather use the minds/souls of the dead.

Koryphaus
09-06-2008, 02:18
The ork minepig makes as much sense, and is as likely as GW bringing out a new rule where you are able to shoot enemies who are out of LOS, behind a tank.

Oh, wait..

Condottiere
09-06-2008, 08:10
The Orks and Tyranids are at the bottom not because they are inferior just that there technology is not strong overall just in two or three district areas. Their knowledge is instinctive and therefore their is little need for then to advance past certain points expect out of necessity. The Orks are #5 though because unlike the bugs they seek to advance, but don't posses a high enough understanding to make things like A.Is or skimmers.

I won't comment on the Tyranids since I never had much sympathy for bugs.

I don't think that Orks possess a need to advance culturally, they pretty much like their social set up as it is (the Goblins might disagree). There is an inherent short-sightedness prevalent throughout the VAST majority of Orks, which prevents all but the most crafty from either having long term goals or making up any strategic policies.

Just because they happen to have blue-prints imprinted in their DNA doesn't make them a high tech society. And regardless of the effectiveness of their devices, the inability to advance on this technology severely limits any possible potential they may have.:eyebrows:

Firaxin
09-06-2008, 15:43
Alright, to everyone who keeps saying Tau are greater than or equal to the the Imperium of Man, I'd like you to say one technological achievement, just one, that the tau have that the Imperials do not have on some level.
Anything.

Because I can assure you they do not.

DarkMatter2
09-06-2008, 15:59
The thing is that the Tau are able to apply tech in a more general, civilization wide way. The Imperium hordes most of its super tech, and it only comes out for special occasions.

The_Outsider
09-06-2008, 17:06
The thing is that the Tau are able to apply tech in a more general, civilization wide way. The Imperium hordes most of its super tech, and it only comes out for special occasions.

Isn't that a bit of false logic? The Tau empire is tiny while the IoM stretches the greater part of the (known) galaxy - who's to say the tau wouldn't struggle to equip so many soldiers with the latest-and-greatest if their empire was that big?

Captain Stern
09-06-2008, 17:59
What does it matter if the Tyranids aren't a 'race' per se, that they evolve their advancements, that they aren't sentient in the same way the other races are, that they exist for a radically different reason, or that they didn't choose to become as they are now. How do any of these things have a bearing on how technologically advanced something is? I think most of you can't bring yourselves to consider something purely organic as being technological.

Sev38
09-06-2008, 18:15
I don't think that Orks possess a need to advance culturally, they pretty much like their social set up as it is (the Goblins might disagree). There is an inherent short-sightedness prevalent throughout the VAST majority of Orks, which prevents all but the most crafty from either having long term goals or making up any strategic policies.

Just because they happen to have blue-prints imprinted in their DNA doesn't make them a high tech society. And regardless of the effectiveness of their devices, the inability to advance on this technology severely limits any possible potential they may have.:eyebrows:

I agree with most of what your saying and despite the arguments I have been giving for orks still would rate them pretty low due to the wide variety of tech levels throughout all the ork worlds. However they do not just have blue-prints imprinted in their DNA. They have knowledge about things like engineering and physics written into their DNA along with a drive to experiment with new tech and learn more about tech. They do have the ability to advance which can be seen by the fact that all ork clans start out feral and become more and more advanced as they grow in number.

Thingy
09-06-2008, 18:24
It really depends upon how you define technological advancement.

Necrons have living metal ffs that has to be the most technologically advanced thing ever. Given that they don't utilize the warp in any way and are pure machine i'd say they're at the top.

On the other hand Orks can make guns out of a piece of pipe and some tape, they're pretty much all mc gyvers and that has to count for something. They are also very efficient. No fancy decorations or cool looking designs, just things that kill stuff. Just because their creations look crude doesn't mean they're bad. They also adapt faster than any other race. They ruthlessly use your own weapons against you. There is a bit of fluff in the new codex that tells of a campaing fought against tau, and pretty much by the end of it most orks were equipped with pulse rifles and battlewagons had railguns on them. The only other race that i could see doing this is tau, all the other races are simply too stuck up to admit that their opponent has better equipment, or religious beliefs prevent them from seeing reason. What prevents them from being even greater is their very short attention span and love of violence. They can build teleporters for christ sake, but instead of using them for something more usefull they decide to hurl snotlings into their enemies and thats why i love them. :rolleyes:

Then there is the imperium. They think their machines are powered by somekind of spirit instead of mechanics, what this means is that they dont understand their own tech at all, they just copy the old stuff over and over again from fragmented pieces of the stc. Still even with their technological advancement completely stalled, they still have awesome machines of war at their disposal, only thing is, if they were ever broken they might not be able to ever fix it or build a new one. Much of this also applies to chaos, except that chaos is more open to progress, but mostly through demonic posession, which really can't be called tech advancement.

Eldar have great technology only overshadowed by the necrons, not really anything more to say about them, except they're on the verge of extinction, which means theres not much room for advancement.

Tau are pretty much equal to the imperium in my mind. And they actually understand how their creations work. The only thing holding them back is that they have no psykers and have very limited understanding of the warp because of this.

Tyranids just don't fit in, but if i i were to add them i'd put them right up there with necrons. They all rapidly evolve to do some specific task the hive mind has in... uhh mind for them and they do it well. They also adapt even faster than Orks.

If i were to make a list based on efficiency it'd be like this:

1) Necrons
2) Orks
3) Imperium and chaos
4) Eldar and Tau

But if based on what is the most complicated it would be:

1) Necrons
2) Eldar
3) Tau
4) Imperium & chaos
5) Orks

Condottiere
09-06-2008, 19:44
The burning question a lot of people have (myself, the elf fanboy in Edinburgh, and the bored college admin flicking between this forum and Big 'Uns Online) is why after millenia of existence after the Fall, the Eldar haven't got their act together and progressed in actual technological terms?

The Exodite (for the sake argument) colony of Ulthuan, though described as a declining civilization, shows a helluva lot more dynamic potential. Probably all Exodite worlds do.

When they were creating their various paths, did they forget the one of the Scientific Researcher?

CWE have created a system that initially was vital to protect them from their nemesis, but now threatens to stifle the last flickering lights of their remaining civilization. And you can't tell me that the Farseers didn't see this coming.

So are Eldar just fatalists and content with good enough technology?

BTW this still leaves them as number 2.;)

Inquisitor Engel
09-06-2008, 20:06
1. Necrons
2. Tau
3. Eldar
4. Dark Eldar
5. Imperium
6. Chaos
7. Orks/Tyranids

Necron technology destroys anything in sight. One of their larger units is an entire star compressed into a ball the size of the Epcot Center Globe that shoots SOLAR FLARES at other units. No other race can do that. Period. Internialess drives are something the Imperium can't even fathom.

I would place the Tau below the Necrons because the Eldar aren't technologically advanced in the sense that everyone else is. They're the most psychically advanced, which is why their technology exists and works the way it does. It is not technology, it is psonics. Falcons and Wave Serpents don't have circuits and fuses, they're made of pure wraithbone. Without the bonesingers, the Eldar would resort to pointy sticks.

The Tau will, one day do more than any other race. I imagine we'll see intertialess drives from them one day just because they have one thing that no other race does - Research and Development. They are innovative on their own AND they learn from their mistakes and the strengths of their enemies, but not by copying them. They run into Titans and their answer is the Manta, which is superior in every way. It lands troops, deploys battlesuits from the air, is close to invulnerable from most ground fire. It has space and atmospheric ability and it hunts Titans.

The Orks saw Titans and rather than making the biggest gun they could, they made Stompas. Chaos had a couple of their possessed and the Eldar kept using the Titans they've always had. No innovation to meet a threat. No creative thinking. A squadron of Tau Barracuda's can destroy entire Imperial Guard landing barges, which results in the loss of an entire REGIMENT.

The Tau advance their technology for the simple fact that they CAN. No other race does that.

The_Outsider
09-06-2008, 21:15
Christ, i'm surprised people overestimate tau so much, "learning fast" isn't the same as "has it now" and thats the problem. Tau are below the IoM in tech level overall, though it probably won't stay that way for long but currently humanity can do pretty much anything the tau can (with various degrees of success) and more.

Not to mention some imperial stuff has lasted longer than the time its taken for the tau to even carve out their little empire (ref: the salamders have a rhino that supposedly carried Vulkan himself).

Firaxin
09-06-2008, 21:43
The Tau will, one day do more than any other race. I imagine we'll see intertialess drives from them one day just because they have one thing that no other race does - Research and Development. They are innovative on their own AND they learn from their mistakes and the strengths of their enemies, but not by copying them.
As has been mentioned in this thread, a) this is not about what will be achieved, but what each race already has, b) you cannot make blanket statements like that, because in as wide a place as the 40k universe, they are automatically false. Every book I've read concerning IG and SM shows them learning from their mistakes and being innovative. and c) They do have a research and development, it's called the Adeptus Mechanicus. Entire fleets of Explorator vessels, each with a population larger than any single tau world, roam the galaxy. There missions are to find, reverse-engineer, and/or create new technologies. That is their only purpose! Think of the manpower, the time, and the resources invested into that! The imperials are doing research on a far larger scale than the tau are, even if the results of that research is slow to reach the front lines.


They run into Titans and their answer is the Manta, which is superior in every way. It lands troops, deploys battlesuits from the air, is close to invulnerable from most ground fire. It has space and atmospheric ability and it hunts Titans.
And the IoM has the Thunderhawk. Perhaps its original design was not anti-titan. But that just goes to show the ingenuity and complexity of it's original design. The thunderhawk is close to invulnerable from most ground fire, like the manta. It has atmospheric and spacial capabilities. With a built in strength D turbo laser and multiple lascannons and even more hellstrike missiles, it could easily handle a titan. Also like the manta, it can hover in midair and launch 30 jump pack equiped space marines. Space marines that are the equivalent of or better than any battlesuit (ref Kill Team, Star of Damocles, and the last tau rulebook, which spoke of space marines 'dueling' with battlesuits), and more than a match for firewarriors.


No innovation to meet a threat. No creative thinking.
As I've said, this is false.



A squadron of Tau Barracuda's can destroy entire Imperial Guard landing barges, which results in the loss of an entire REGIMENT.
And a dozen thunderbolt squadrons could easily intercept them long before they were within striking distance of the barges, because the thunderbolt has a higher airspeed than anything the tau have, and a dozen squadrons to one sounds like the proper ratio imperials would be bringing to bear. And even if they do shoot down the barge, so what? The imperials land troops by the regiment because they CAN, because it doesn't matter if they lose that many troops.



The Tau advance their technology for the simple fact that they CAN. No other race does that.
I'd like to point to the Explorator fleets again. And the orks, at the very least.

Lord Damocles
09-06-2008, 22:02
Why does everyone seem to think that Tau are so great:confused:


they have one thing that no other race does - Research and Development.
The Eldar are actively researching a close combat version of the wraithguard...
Abaddon's Planet Killer surely required some development...
The Imperium are experimenting with anti-psy tech to combat the 'Nids...
I could go on, but i can't be bothered right now.

They run into Titans and their answer is the Manta, which is superior in every way.
So the Manta can kill the Titan (I've never read of them killing anything larger than a Warhound though, although I might well be wrong), but it can't kill whole detachments of tanks and infantry like the Titan, it can't kill ships in orbit from the surface of the planet like some Titans, it can't level cities like the Titan... The Manta might be better one-on-one with the Titan, but the Titan will win against a whole lot of other stuff which it was designed to fight.

The Tau advance their technology for the simple fact that they CAN. No other race does that.
They didn't introduce the Rail Rifle simply because they could. The bit of fluff in WD when it was first released is quite clear that they needed something to stop marines, and were willing to sacrifice the safety of their troops to get it...

The_Outsider
09-06-2008, 22:35
They didn't introduce the Rail Rifle simply because they could. The bit of fluff in WD when it was first released is quite clear that they needed something to stop marines, and were willing to sacrifice the safety of their troops to get it...

I'd also wager Fire Warrior had something to do with it as well.

Kage2020
10-06-2008, 00:32
The Tau advance their technology for the simple fact that they CAN. No other race does that.
Strikes me as an inherently negative approach to the 40k background, one which determines "reality" by Theme. Thus the Eldar are a "dying race" and thus cannot produce technology, the Imperium has the Adeptus Mechanicus and as we all "know" that pretty much curtails any form of advancement there... etc., etc.

It's appropriate for what might be called a "vanilla" approach to the background-as-setting, but one that lovers of the universe can invest their minds into? Naaaah...

Arguably.

(Not to mention the Theme of the Tau just breaks the mold of the 40k universe...)

Kage

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
10-06-2008, 03:12
I guess most people aren't familiar with the Battle Fleet Gothic campaign rules. In it, the Gothic Battlefleet can research and install various upgrades to drives and weapons.

I do not buy the Manta superior then Titan theory. Maybe against a lone Warhound Titan. A properly equipped Warlord Titan can shot a Manta down at range before it fires a shot.

The comparision between Fire Warriors and the average Guardsmen doesn't sit right with me for a few reasons either. The value placed on each life and the cost of equipment varies greatly. A better comparision would be a Sister of Battle and Fire Warrior. Being the second largest Military force in the Imperium and still out numbering Fire Warriors by alot, a Sister of Battle is equipped just as well, if not better then a Fire Warrior. Power Armour, Flame/Bolter/Melta backed by faith is a powerful weapon.

I still think Orks are more advanced then Tau. The Orks are the only race with man portable large scale force field technology and teleporters second only to Necrons. They can also claim the most resourceful "scientists," Meks. Their space ships can also make jumps deep enough into the warp and not be torn apart by demons (due to their force fields).



-Warp Space Travel 101-
The warp is infested with demons. Anything fully entering the warp for an extended period of time (space ship) must protect itself. Different races deal with this by different means.

Necrons: They don't even bother with the warp. They create/access their own dimensions to travel through.

Eldar: They create holes through the warp (web way) and do not enter the warp. This travel is much more reliable and safer. That is assuming the hole/webway is maintained properly.

Imperium: The Gellar field protects Imperial ships from demons when in the warp. When used in conjunction with the Astronomican, Imperial ships can navigate through the warp for long periods of time at a good speed. Without the Astronomican, long jumps through the warp risk going off course. Warp travel is still very possible thanks to the Gellar field though, it just slows down quite a bit.

Orks: Ork Meks create some of the most advanced force fields in the universe. These fields allow them to travel through the warp without the threat of demons. I don't think they would mind the fight though if the field failed or flickered off for awhile.

Tau: The are at the bottom of the totem here. Their lack of knowledge of the warp hinders development in this area. Since they do not have a force field strong enough for extended warp jumps, they "skim" the warp. This requires many short jumps to cover any kind of distance. This isn't too much of a problem yet though because their "empire" is so small.

Inquisitor Engel
10-06-2008, 03:21
The Eldar are actively researching a close combat version of the wraithguard...
Abaddon's Planet Killer surely required some development...

I've been out of the loop for some time, I request a reference on the first point. I don't doubt you, but I'd like to see it. (And as I said, the Eldar aren't technologically advanced or researching anything, it's all just an extension to

I'm personally of the opinion that the Planet Killer was designed by Daemons or someone not far off lunacy. It's clearly something they can't mass produce and it's something I doubt they could fix if it broke (since it seems to be mechanical and not daemonic/organic in nature). At least till it jumped. It's an exception that proves the rule IMHO, as is the Defiler.


So the Manta can kill the Titan (I've never read of them killing anything larger than a Warhound though, although I might well be wrong), but it can't kill whole detachments of tanks and infantry like the Titan, it can't kill ships in orbit from the surface of the planet like some Titans, it can't level cities like the Titan... The Manta might be better one-on-one with the Titan, but the Titan will win against a whole lot of other stuff which it was designed to fight.

And the Manta does a bunch of other stuff the Titan can't... what's your point? :eyebrows: The Manta does what it was designed to do because it was designed to do it in response to many of the forces the Tau were facing. They innovated to combat a problem, rather than simply copying their foe.


As has been mentioned in this thread, a) this is not about what will be achieved, but what each race already has, b) you cannot make blanket statements like that, because in as wide a place as the 40k universe, they are automatically false.

And if you'd have read my post you'd have noticed that that wasn't why I rated them second... Just an observation. What happened to supposition and conjecture?


Every book I've read concerning IG and SM shows them learning from their mistakes and being innovative. and c) They do have a research and development, it's called the Adeptus Mechanicus. Entire fleets of Explorator vessels, each with a population larger than any single tau world, roam the galaxy. There missions are to find, reverse-engineer, and/or create new technologies.

First, the Codexes directly contradict the idea of widespread innovation within the Imperium. The books are all specific instances. Tiny views into the world at large. Does innovation occur? Yes. Is it widely adopted? No, generally not.

New tanks designs are usually only approved if it's faithful to the original STC (and deemed so by the AM) and new ones are only created because someone found a moldy floppy drive on Seti-Omega-Omicron VI.

The religiosity of the STC template is one that the AM holds most sacred. If something doesn't seem like it was "in the original intent" it's not approved and considered Heresy. The Land Raider Crusader had to be PUSHED THROUGH BY SPACE MARINES to be approved and another innovation (I forget which) which was an improvement upon the original design was completely rejected by the AM. (First third edition IG Codex I believe)

You may want to read up on your Explorator Fleets mate... They're designed to do two thigns - they're looking for STC templates. They find new worlds and catalogue them. Anything else they do is purely incidental.


That is their only purpose! Think of the manpower, the time, and the resources invested into that! The imperials are doing research on a far larger scale than the tau are, even if the results of that research is slow to reach the front lines.

See above. That is not their purpose. Their purpose it to continue to find what they can so they can REBUILD what the AM has lost since there DAoT or the Heresy.



And the IoM has the Thunderhawk. Perhaps its original design was not anti-titan. But that just goes to show the ingenuity and complexity of it's original design. The thunderhawk is close to invulnerable from most ground fire, like the manta. It has atmospheric and spacial capabilities. With a built in strength D turbo laser and multiple lascannons and even more hellstrike missiles, it could easily handle a titan. Also like the manta, it can hover in midair and launch 30 jump pack equiped space marines.

The Thunderhawk has been in use since the Great Crusade (hence why Chaos has them too!) and possibly before. It's "innovative" because it was created by a completely different form of mankind, one since lost to the Universe.


The imperials land troops by the regiment because they CAN, because it doesn't matter if they lose that many troops.

Fair point, but the old Epic rules for those landers essentially meant they were unstoppable, for a squadron of small planes to take it out is impressive.


And the orks, at the very least.

And as I pointed out, the Orks copy things, they don't innovate them themselves. If the Orks had never encountered humans they'd still be hitting each other over the head with rocks.

Nazguire
10-06-2008, 05:09
I would place the Tau below the Necrons because the Eldar aren't technologically advanced in the sense that everyone else is. They're the most psychically advanced, which is why their technology exists and works the way it does. It is not technology, it is psonics. Falcons and Wave Serpents don't have circuits and fuses, they're made of pure wraithbone. Without the bonesingers, the Eldar would resort to pointy sticks.

Honestly, I think thats crap. Are you seriously saying that without their psychic abilities, the Eldar wouldn't be able to hold a candle to the Tau's technology (just as a comparison)
If you look inside the cockpit of a Falcon model you see a console with knobs and dials and things. If it was psychically powered and the such, what's the point of all that stuff. You'd just use your mind instead.

Wraithbone is meant to be rare. They have other psychoplastics granted, but to say that the Eldar without wraithbone would be using sticks and stones because they never learned in the millions of years of existence how to build, use and/or incorporate circuits, electricity, fuses whatever into their technology (regardless whether currently the majority is psionic or not) is ludicrous.



The Tau will, one day do more than any other race. I imagine we'll see intertialess drives from them one day just because they have one thing that no other race does - Research and Development. They are innovative on their own AND they learn from their mistakes and the strengths of their enemies, but not by copying them. They run into Titans and their answer is the Manta, which is superior in every way. It lands troops, deploys battlesuits from the air, is close to invulnerable from most ground fire. It has space and atmospheric ability and it hunts Titans.

The Manta doesn't hunt Titans as it's main role. It can do that, just as a Warlord Titan can blast a small cruiser out the sky with it's big guns. But Warlord Titans arent' sent out to do that, just as a Manta isn't. The Titan hunting squadrons are those Tigershark Rail-cannon toting aircraft the Tau developed for Taros. The Manta was about before Imperial contact anyways, as you can see in the Tau Codex when they are meeting the Kroot for the first time.

The Imperials also might not see the need to build such a 'Tim the Toolman' space ship as well, since they already have a variety of craft that can do everything the Manta can do, albeit not in such a deluxe package. For example the Thunderhawk (a smaller scale) can transport 30 Marines, paradrop 30 Assault Marines, carry heavy equipment, obliterate ground defences with it's missiles and guns, enter space, has incredible armour against ground fire and can fly very very fast (regardless of aerodynamics)

Imperial Landers are used because that's how the Imperials operate. Whilst the Tau dont have the numbers and a Regiment (or Cadre or whatever it is) lost in its entirety in one shot is a tragedy, a regiment lost in one hit by the Imperials is merely an annoyance (in general)



A squadron of Tau Barracuda's can destroy entire Imperial Guard landing barges, which results in the loss of an entire REGIMENT.

As you pointed out that the Planet Killer is an exception to the rule, so is this Barracuda squadron which are (according to the Apocalypse book) one of those rare 'ace' squadrons that pop up every now and then in history. Not every squadron of Air Caste pilots are going to be Rogue Squadron, just as how not every Regiment of Imperial Guard are the First and Only.

Iracundus
10-06-2008, 09:19
The burning question a lot of people have (myself, the elf fanboy in Edinburgh, and the bored college admin flicking between this forum and Big 'Uns Online) is why after millenia of existence after the Fall, the Eldar haven't got their act together and progressed in actual technological terms?

The Exodite (for the sake argument) colony of Ulthuan, though described as a declining civilization, shows a helluva lot more dynamic potential. Probably all Exodite worlds do.


Ulthuan has the same problem the Craftworlds seemingly have with their continuing reliance on such things as bolt throwers. The Eldar seem driven to endless refinements and incremental improvements of existing tech, even when there are diminishing returns, rather than exploring radically new forms of technology. If you look at the Eldar technology, much of it is basically the same, just at different scales or slightly different utilizations. Their main heavy ranged combat weapons for example are all various forms of laser, ranging from the grav-support platform sized lasers to grav-tank pulse lasers to Titan pulsar lasers to starship laser batteries and pulsar lances.

In the latest Eldar Codex, the Vyper and Wraithlord sections mention that Vypers were originally pioneered by Saim Hann and the Wraithlord weapon fits by Iyanden. Given that both Craftworlds are roughly as old as the Fall, that means the Eldar have come up with stuff in the last ten or so millenia. It is just that they are once again refinements of already known technology.

Kage2020
10-06-2008, 22:09
It is just that they are once again refinements of already known technology.
Yet it is not that arguably broadly true in our own world? (The real one, just in case. ;)) How often do truly ground-breaking ideas come up?

Also, doesn't it depend on how you categorise it? Is the jet engine a radical advancement of the propeller engine, or just a refinement of "aircraft engineering" in general? (I know that might be taken as a silly example, but it is meant to illustrate rather than operate as a strict counter argument.)

(And once again you have the cynical answer to technological stasis in the 40k universe, e.g. that whole "setting" malarky.)

Kage

Aeolian
11-06-2008, 00:01
I can't believe Engel takes such a simplistic view.

That and how he can ignore existing fluff stating the Imperium has research ongoing in many branches. Probably multiples more expansive than all of the Tau together.

The Tau are a tiny, semi advanced minor species with a small, insignificant empire. They aren't even that important. They were introduced as one of the many 'minor species', not as a galactic threat like the Orks or Eldar.

Nazguire
11-06-2008, 03:39
I can't believe Engel takes such a simplistic view.

That and how he can ignore existing fluff stating the Imperium has research ongoing in many branches. Probably multiples more expansive than all of the Tau together.

The Tau are a tiny, semi advanced minor species with a small, insignificant empire. They aren't even that important. They were introduced as one of the many 'minor species', not as a galactic threat like the Orks or Eldar.


I can't believe you just classed the Eldar in the same league of 'Galactic Threat' as the Orks. If they were of the same level, there wouldn't be an Imperium, because the Eldar would have overrun it by now if they had the same power, influence and numbers of the Orks.

The Tau were introduced as a minor species yes, but now they have been promoted as a major threat on the Eastern Fringe, just not in the same way as the Tyranids. Instead of a large physical threat, the Tau are a threat because of their ideaology and belief system.

squigsnok
11-06-2008, 04:13
And as I pointed out, the Orks copy things, they don't innovate them themselves. If the Orks had never encountered humans they'd still be hitting each other over the head with rocks.

Not so. As already mentioned the orks have force field technology which far, far suppasses that of the Imperium. This is evident not only in portable battlefield generators (the kustom force field) but also in the larger arrays which protect them when they traverse the warp in hollowed out asteroids and space hulks.

Their warp-portal manipulation technology (with the shokk attak gun) is also at a level which the imperium can only dream of, and is almost on a par with that utilised by the Eldar in their D-cannons.

Add into that "tracktor beam" tech used in lifta droppas, the grav-pulsars used in Pulsa Rokkitz, and force-bubbles used in Bubble-Chuckaz. Not to mention their ability to steer space hulks in the warp, and you have a race that is very technologically advanced.


Also your idea that without humans the orks would still be attacking each other with rocks is untrue. Ork meks have an intuitive knowledge of how to create weaponry, including guns. There are ork tribes which have never encountered humans which still have guns. Yes, they do copy other weapons they see, or add certain design features into their own guns, but fundamentally they still have their own tech, which in some cases is better than the Imperium.

As the Eldar philosopher Ulthan the Perverse said "we see a culture which is stong and despise it as crude"

Personally I'd rank the technological levels as follows:

1) Necrons - one look at the weapons and abilities of their ships in BFG indicates their tech far outstrips that of anyone else. They have the most advance teleportation technology (that we know of) in the galaxy, and have living metal. Hands down winners.

2) Eldar - Coming in second on account of the webway, Talismans of Vaul (The Blackstone Fortresses), manipulation of warp portals (in D-cannons...etc) and use of psychically attuned materials such such as wraithbone

3) Orks - for the reasons mentioned above

4) Tau The Tau will probably rise to beat the Eldar if allowed to continue to advance at the rate they are doing, but they are still developing key technologies. True warp travel is still beyond them, and as such they cannot expand at the same rate as other races.

5) The Imperium Lagging behind because although they do indeed have the advanced technology, such as genetic manipulation and so on, they no longer understand how much of it works. Ritualisation and machine-worship has meant that although they have the technology, they cannot be seen as an "advanced" race. The fact their technology level has remained stagnant (or rather has got worse) over 10,000 years also knocks them to the bottom of the pile.

Sev38
11-06-2008, 05:23
.
And as I pointed out, the Orks copy things, they don't innovate them themselves. If the Orks had never encountered humans they'd still be hitting each other over the head with rocks.
:eyebrows:
Umm... Orks were around long before humans were even standing on two legs and typically already have fairly advanced technology when humans stumble onto an ork controlled world for the first time. Also looking at examples others have given of ork technology you can see that much of their most advanced tech is fairly different than that of the imperium and often beyond the imperium's capabilities.

Poseidal
11-06-2008, 08:49
I would place the Tau below the Necrons because the Eldar aren't technologically advanced in the sense that everyone else is. They're the most psychically advanced, which is why their technology exists and works the way it does. It is not technology, it is psonics. Falcons and Wave Serpents don't have circuits and fuses, they're made of pure wraithbone. Without the bonesingers, the Eldar would resort to pointy sticks.
If you read the 2nd ed Eldar book, it states that the 'growing' method is only in manufacture; the function of devices is just like that of most races, with triggers and chambers etc; they did have science/engineering which they used to research the concept of the devices, but they manufacture it in a very different way.

In no way do Eldar 'rely' on psionics; they simply use it because to them it is much more efficient than a forge.

Lord Damocles
11-06-2008, 10:42
I've been out of the loop for some time, I request a reference on the first point. I don't doubt you, but I'd like to see it. (And as I said, the Eldar aren't technologically advanced or researching anything, it's all just an extension to
White Dwarf 324, pg. 93

Of all the Craftworlds, Iyanden has the most wraith-constructs. They commonly use Wraithlords as long-range support and, having pioneered the most recent patterns of Wraithlord, are also investigating a pattern of Wraithguard optimised for close assault.
You might want to finish your sentence as well;)





And the Manta does a bunch of other stuff the Titan can't... what's your point? :eyebrows: The Manta does what it was designed to do because it was designed to do it in response to many of the forces the Tau were facing. They innovated to combat a problem, rather than simply copying their foe.
The Manta does what it was designed to do (hunt Titans and other big stuff), just as the Titan does what it was designed to do (kill vast armies of infantry and tanks, level whole city blocks etc.). You can't use this to claim that the Tau are more advanced, because you're comparing two units designed to do totally different things. When the Tau have a unit which is designed to fulfill the same role as the Titan, then you can compare them to see which is 'best'.

AdmiralDick
11-06-2008, 18:21
this is such a subjective topic that there is no real way to make a comprable lists. we are all measuring different things.

however, if i take the question at absolute face value mean who currently has possession the most advanced form of technology, then the order would probably be something like this:

1) Necrons/Necrotyr
2) Craftworld Eldar
3) Dark Eldar
4) Orks
5) Imperium
6) Tau

the Tau come last because, althought they have advanced quickly and are still advancing at an appreciable rate, they have not yet superceeded Human technologies, most notebly they have yet to find a suitable method of faster-than-light travel. their weapon systems are more subtle, but that is largley due to motivation, rather than technology.

humans, we obviously know about.

Orks trump humans, because, whilst they have limited to no capacity to learn, they have technologies, largely energy fields, that humans are still trying to master. they are certainly not far ahead, humans can teleport and have energy shields, but they are not are stable or a simple as Ork ones.

Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar are quite similar, just that it seems like Dark Eldar can't be bothered to use it. psycho-reactive plastics are non-existant in the human world, and thus mind-controlled construction is also. the Webway is a much better system of Faster-than-light travel than entering the warp, and sole collection is a mere dream of humans.

Necrons are in advance of Eldar, but i'm not entirely sure by how much. i don't really know whether is it clear how Necrons travel fast-than-light, but they have moved well beyond the simple means of the Warp or the Warplite (or the Webway as some call it). their ability to teleport and communicate interstella distances without the use of the Warp means that they surpass most other technologies. in fact, it is frankly amazing that they manage to acheive anything when one considers just who vital the psuedo-scientific energies of the Warp are to everyone else; so that they acheive so much is staggering. but as i just, just how advanced they are is far from clear, it seems that pretty much all of the noted techical advances of the Necrons are replicated by the Eldar. certainly both can relocate soles in mechanical bodies (although, we have no idea what 'soles' Necrons have if they don't interact with the warp)).

the two odd balls are the forces of Chaos and the Tyranids. the tyranids are really and truely a technology in of themselves, so they kind of count themselves out of this discussion, however it would be a little petty to cut them out completely. they can travel faster than light (suck on that Tau) and yet have no method of teleportation (as far as i am aware), which places them just behind humans. their major ability though is genetic engineering, which is frankly impressive. it pretty much surpasses everyother races abilities in the same field. but to what end? the reason that no one else is better, is because no one else really cares. the closest humans have got is Space Marines, but the Eldar and Necrons have seen this as mere childs play. it does not take the race into the future. more importantly still, they are stuck in a rut. if they truely are the masters of genetic engineering, why aren't they germs? even if you cannot make a germ that can cause disease in all races, you can make one that saps all the oxygen from the air. that would kill everyone off without many significant losses on their side. why aren't they like fugal networks that spread out underground, poisoning everything. what happend to mindslaves, they seemed like a pretty smart idea. Tyranids need to move on, and for all their skills i don't think they ever will. (not that that stops them from crushing everything in the galaxy by sheer weight of numbers).

the other oddity are the forces of the Warp themselves. the Chaos Gods and their deamons' ability to construct is actually a lot better than the Eldar's psycho-plastics. its just that they are so primal, that anything they do create is relatively unsophisticated. but when they do, the Chaos Gods get to show off one of their greatest assets. they don't actually have to follow any of the established natural laws. Daemon engines aren't generally more powerful than devices greated by other races. but they certainly could be. they are completely unrestrained by any need to follow any conventions of any kind. in that context it actually because quite difficult, not to think of things they can't do, but things they can. we're so bound by the world we live in that it actually is difficult to imagine another way.

whilst they should stand head and shoulders above everyone else, their are some fairly obvious reasons why they do not. firstly, they have a limited range. out side of the Warp their become weak and next to useless, so unless everyone relocates to the Warp they will never be able to compete. secondly, their power and resources are entirely self dependent. it is a closed system and means that the Chaos Gods cannot reach any further than themselves. to build something new, they will have to deconstruct something else. the horizons are truely endless, but there will never be anything new under the sun. and thirdly and most importantly, the Warp and Chaos in general (as given away by the names) are constantly decaying. they are purely nihilistic, and everything is contantly being reduced to its simplest possible forms. whilst it might seem that there are patterns occuring (the formation of the gods), they are purely random occurences too and will eventually dissipate also. they will never manage to continue to advance technologically because it is simply not in their nature.


The reason why the Imperium will never advance under its own ingenuity is because theyve gone and fused religion with Science so much that its pretty much impossible to discern between them.

it didn't seem to stop anyone up until the enlightenment from discovering some of the most important and profound truths that we take for granted today, and has hardly proved a decisive problem since. it is a fairly modern fad to imagine that science and religion are mutually exclusive. i doubt seriously in 50 years time people will take the idea seriously.

Dictator
11-06-2008, 18:46
Necrons have to be first. They travel FTL without the warp, they have gauss weaponry, they self-repair, they flash teleport great distances back to their tomb world once they are irreparable on the field of battle. Also, they have the largest ships in existance right? The Black fortresses are huge!
Mind you, if you read the necron codex it states they reached their pinnacle of technology and then the c'an encased their deadened souls into the living metal bodies we know as necrons.

The Judge
11-06-2008, 19:05
I swear Blackstone Fortresses are an Eldar creation... but the Necron's probably have massive ships regardless.

And size means nothing in this topic.

Sev38
11-06-2008, 19:08
Orks trump humans, because, whilst they have limited to no capacity to learn,


actually orks have just as much capacity to learn as humans its just that their culture doesn't put any importance on learning or teaching so orks learn from personal experience. Meks and mad doks for example learn through experimentation. Orks are as intelligent as humans but are more impatient and more ignorant than humans. In other words they can learn just as much but since they don't teach each other things on average they know less than a human

Lord Damocles
11-06-2008, 19:21
I swear Blackstone Fortresses are an Eldar creation... but the Necron's probably have massive ships regardless.

Indeed. The Talismans of Vaul (Blackstone Fortresses) were forged by the Eldar smith god, Vaul.

As far as we know, the largest / most powerful Necron vessel to be encountered so far (who knows what else is inside those tomb worlds?) is / was the Nightbringer's ship, the Bringer of Darkness, which was able to destroy entire star systems :eek:

Firaxin
11-06-2008, 19:55
Hmm... people keep bringing up the ork's sheild technology, and all along i'd been silently agreeing with them, but now that I stop to really think about it, I wonder.

On the titan scale, at least, Imperial void shields are superior to the ork power fields, because void shields can be regenerated but power fields cannot. Otherwise, they provide the same benefits, which implies that ork shield technology on that level is equal to humans, not superior, in terms of power, but that orks have the added disadvantage of their shields being less stable.

On the smaller, portable end of the spectrum, the orks have the Kustom Force Field, which gives a relatively weak save to many orks. Humans have conversion, displacer, power, and refractor fields, not to mention rosariuses... I'd think they're shields are man portable too. Heck, the power field gave a 2+ invulnerable save! Again I would say their tech is aproximately equal here, orks having a portable shield generator to provide weak protection to many models while Imperials make use of portable shields generators to provide strong protection to a single model.

Azulthar
12-06-2008, 07:17
1. Necrons
2. Eldar / Dark Eldar
3. gap
4. Imperium
5. Chaos
6. Tau
8. Orks (yes they have the occasional brilliant insight, but on the whole I wouldn't call their race "technologically advanced").

AdmiralDick
12-06-2008, 07:44
actually orks have just as much capacity to learn as humans

sadly i'm at work right now, so can't really look up references to Orkish learning, but i'm pretty confident that their learning is stunted. it's not that they don't put much importance on the matter but that they can't learn from one other other than by 'aping'. which would be a severe handicap to learning to a human.


Hmm... people keep bringing up the ork's sheild technology, and all along i'd been silently agreeing with them, but now that I stop to really think about it, I wonder.

you are quite right to say that Ork shields are pretty weak (Bubble Chuckas being actually quite strong force fields) , but the reason they trump Human systems is because they are easy to manufacture. each and every human force field is a royal pain in the behind to manufacture, and they have now way of reducing the complexity of the system. Orks on the other had, may well not care about the fine tuning that Humans like, but have forcefeild systems that they can literally throw together. given limited resources, Orks would be able to build force fields long before Human. by most peoples judgement that is a pretty significant technological success.

the same principle is true of most of the technologies that Orks superceed Humans in. they are not vastly in advance of humans, but if humans could make those systems as quick and dirty as Orks they they could refine them too. but as it stands they are still looking at Orks with envy.

Iracundus
12-06-2008, 09:31
Actually the Tyranid ecosystem does extend to microscopic levels. The original WD article describing Tyranid infestation and parasitization of existing flora mentions how the plants are infested with parasites or Tyranid microbes that then weaken or kill animals that eat them or eat the fruit. Likewise the larger Tyranid organisms like the Hierophant release fast acting fungal spores that also weaken or kill enemies. In the actual consumption of the world, and harnessing of the various forms of energy available such as chemolithic or geothermal energy, a key component would be bacteria. Bacteria feeding on and breaking down inorganic materials or growing in geothermal vents, and then being eaten by other Tyranid organisms are a way in which these energy inputs feed into the overall Tyranid consumption ecosystem.

MvS
12-06-2008, 09:46
Actually the Tyranid ecosystem does extend to microscopic levels.
This exactly right and completely appropriate part of the Tyranid imagery, but at the same time I think it creates one of their biggest contradictions too.

If a Hive Fleet can release trillions and trillions of Tyranid Bacteria, Spores and vomit whole resevoirs of corrosive enzymes, which is seems logical that they can, they needn't invade at all really - or perhaps just to mop up a few automated defences or troops with special chemical/bacteriological warfare suits.

If the Tyranid Norn Queen could 'evolve' several viruses keyed to human DNA that are so virulent as to create multiple pandemics across a world at once, at the same time as releasing clouds of spores to break down plant life and enzymes to eat away at concrete/plascrete or whatever, the Tyranids would only need to focus strike forces against hardened targets that have armoured habitation units and bunkers that are effectively cut off from the outside world.

But then I guess this would defeat the logic of billions of Tyranid beasties rushing over defenders in endless swarms. I suppose we could say that the Tyranid Hive Mind it predicated upon keeping active control over all its organisms, so it only really generates creatures that have some sort of brain (or whatever) that can be controlled, so they only really produce creatures down to the size of various tiny insects.

Still, we know they produce spores and the like, so I guess it's just one of those things...

:)

Iracundus
12-06-2008, 10:06
Or it implies there is not sufficient selection advantage to have specialized micro-organisms just to wipe out humans as opposed to generalized ones that are somewhat effective against multiple species, both sentient and non-sentient.

The Tyranids have flora with no brains, so they are not limited to just animals with nervous systems.

The short story in the latest Tyranid Codex depicting the fall of a human outpost, has the humans with a commissar that is essentially dying as his lungs are broken down while the other Imperial Guard have all sorts of minor infections from scratches and minor wounds. The overall effect saps their ability to resist and kills off weaker individuals. An organism capable of being spread via a variety of vectors and species and which is not too quickly lethal would be perfect for achieving endemic levels quickly on a planet.

MvS
12-06-2008, 10:43
Or it implies there is not sufficient selection advantage to have specialized micro-organisms just to wipe out humans as opposed to generalized ones that are somewhat effective against multiple species, both sentient and non-sentient.
Even so, it doesn't seem impossible (given the setting and the creatures we are discussing) for them to create a series of viruses that can 'hop' species, killing all mammals, say. It would certainly take less resources than creating billions of large and complex creatures to go and fight a planet to its knees.

If they can create generalised viruses/bacteria/microbes/spores than can 'sort of' effect all life on a planet, then they have already 'evolved' things that can caused cross-species pandemics of various sorts. making these pandemics lethal doesn't seem too much of a leap.

It seems clear that the logic of Tyranid armies is becaiuse the imagery draws from the game more than the other way around. You can't have a tabletop battle against viruses, spores, bacteria, microbes, corrosive enzymes and gases infesting a battlefield.


The Tyranids have flora with no brains, so they are not limited to just animals with nervous systems.
Well indeed, as said previously, they can generate spores. Nuff said.


The short story in the latest Tyranid Codex depicting the fall of a human outpost, has the humans with a commissar that is essentially dying as his lungs are broken down while the other Imperial Guard have all sorts of minor infections from scratches and minor wounds. The overall effect saps their ability to resist and kills off weaker individuals. An organism capable of being spread via a variety of vectors and species and which is not too quickly lethal would be perfect for achieving endemic levels quickly on a planet.
This is precisely my point.

If a Hive Fleet creates a blockade that prevents aid coming to the planet in question, but while consistently pumping viruses and bacteria into that world's biosphere, there wouldn't be a need for a massive invasion of billions of Tyranids. Pump extremely virulent specialised Tyranid equivalents of smallpox, SARS, influenza, mumps, TB, malaria, HIV, BSE and anthrax right across a specific region all at the same time, they could take a continent in a relatively short period and gain a foothold to continue polluting the rest of the biosphere in no time at all (insofar as planetary invasions can be measured).

Imagine pumping a closely packed Hiveworld with this sort of level of illness - illnesses that the locals haven't come across before and so have no defences against. They might be able to come up with a quick cure for one or two illnesses, but if huge and unnatural amounts of multiple pathogens hit the area at the same time, some bacteriological, some parasitic microbes, some viruses, some as spores/fungi, the infected system would be overwhelmed - that's the whole point of total bacteriological warfare: to completely overwhelm all capabilities to combat and treat the growing epidemic/pandemic.

The imagery hints at this sort of thing, as you showed in that quote, but there's still a massive and wasteful invasion by large Tyranid organisms that took resources to generate and deploy.

But as I mentioned before, I guess an invasion could still be justified because there are bound to be thousands of troops in the 40th millennium with specialist equipment to fight this sort of thing, and I'm sure that a Hive Fleet would want to get in, take a planet and leave as soon as possible, so it might not want to wait for absolutely everyone to run out of food or else sicken and die before it moves in en-masse.

The Hive Mind wouldn't want to lose a planet sized dinner plate to be destroyed by Cyclonic Torpedoes before supper was over. I imagine guzzling must be the order of the day for Tyranid Fleets.

Iracundus
12-06-2008, 11:07
If a Hive Fleet creates a blockade that prevents aid coming to the planet in question, but while consistently pumping viruses and bacteria into that world's biosphere, there wouldn't be a need for a massive invasion of billions of Tyranids. Pump extremely virulent specialised Tyranid equivalents of smallpox, SARS, influenza, mumps, TB, malaria, HIV, BSE and anthrax right across a specific region all at the same time, they could take a continent in a relatively short period and gain a foothold to continue polluting the rest of the biosphere in no time at all (insofar as planetary invasions can be measured).

Imagine pumping a closely packed Hiveworld with this sort of level of illness - illnesses that the locals haven't come across before and so have no defences against. They might be able to come up with a quick cure for one or two illnesses, but if huge and unnatural amounts of multiple pathogens hit the area at the same time, some bacteriological, some parasitic microbes, some viruses, some as spores/fungi, the infected system would be overwhelmed - that's the whole point of total bacteriological warfare: to completely overwhelm all capabilities to combat and treat the growing epidemic/pandemic.

There is an inverse relationship between the relative lethality of a virus or bacterium and its ability to propagate through a population. Organisms like Ebola don't spread very far before burning themselves out because they are so lethal they tend to kill their host before there has been much opportunity to spread to other hosts. Conversely, some extremely low lethality viruses like herpes simplex are endemic because they are so low profile hosts spread them far and wide as the hosts themselves are not too adversely affected. The Tyranid microbes could have struck a balance between these two extremes with organisms that sicken their hosts relatively quickly but which are not so lethal as to prevent fast and wide spread.




The Hive Mind wouldn't want to lose a planet sized dinner plate to be destroyed by Cyclonic Torpedoes before supper was over. I imagine guzzling must be the order of the day for Tyranid Fleets.

A similar point was made on the question of why the Tyranids don't sit quietly on a planet and just photosynthesize instead of stripping everything. Time is one of the variables besides just pure energy efficiency. Top predators on Earth can leave large amounts of carrion for scavengers after a kill simply because they eat quickly and move on to more prey. The extra time and effort involved to ferret out every last scrap from a kill ends up being more trouble than it is worth.

Pete278
12-06-2008, 12:30
The way Ork technology advances is simple really. 'I want to kill that person, but he's too far away' led to most of it until eventually they ended up with weapons big enough to reach them. Then someone stood even further away ;). Or, the other way, they made the trucks and tracks to get to him faster. Remember, the ork only needs to think it works for it to actually work.

Sybaronde
12-06-2008, 12:46
The way Ork technology advances is simple really. 'I want to kill that person, but he's too far away' led to most of it until eventually they ended up with weapons big enough to reach them.

Then the noggin' next to him saw that big shoota' and decided that he wanted a even bigga shoota' and make it go more dakka! And then the noggin' next to him saw that and made a even bigga-bigga-moar-dakka shoota'! :D

Nazguire
12-06-2008, 13:11
The way Ork technology advances is simple really. 'I want to kill that person, but he's too far away' led to most of it until eventually they ended up with weapons big enough to reach them. Then someone stood even further away ;). Or, the other way, they made the trucks and tracks to get to him faster. Remember, the ork only needs to think it works for it to actually work.


An Ork doesn't need to just think for something to work for it to work. Most of Ork technology works on sound technological theories. The latent psychic abilities just give it a helping hand. The fact that humans can use their weapons is proof of this.

Xisor
12-06-2008, 16:54
The Manta does what it was designed to do (hunt Titans and other big stuff), just as the Titan does what it was designed to do (kill vast armies of infantry and tanks, level whole city blocks etc.). You can't use this to claim that the Tau are more advanced, because you're comparing two units designed to do totally different things. When the Tau have a unit which is designed to fulfill the same role as the Titan, then you can compare them to see which is 'best'.


Baffling, utterly baffling. Your claim on comparisons is reasonable, though not quite right. A bread-knife and a sword have obviously different uses. But asking which is best seems quite contextual, not really a useful measure.

Not only that, however, but that the Manta was not designed with the aim in mind of killing vast armies of infantry and whatnot. At least it's not stated that that was the case. Rather it is stated that the design was intended to ferry troops from orbit to planet-surface rapidly during the Tau'n Campaign (against the Orks during a time when Orks still outgunned, out manouevred, out performed and out armoured the Tau). This would mean that Tau invaders would no longer need to spend time and resources setting up orbital intermediate stations when they could just fight all their way to the planets surface, scour it and then set up orbitals afterwards.

But then, you are right, when looking at designs, the Manta is designed to transport troops, the Titan is designed to be a moible super-devastation weapon. One might, contrarily, say that since the Manta does more than just its original purpose, that makes it better from a design PoV. But that's a different discussion!

avatar of kaine
12-06-2008, 16:58
Not so. As already mentioned the orks have force field technology which far, far suppasses that of the Imperium. This is evident not only in portable battlefield generators (the kustom force field) but also in the larger arrays which protect them when they traverse the warp in hollowed out asteroids and space hulks.

Their warp-portal manipulation technology (with the shokk attak gun) is also at a level which the imperium can only dream of, and is almost on a par with that utilised by the Eldar in their D-cannons.

I see it more as D-cannon being a health and safty version of the shokk attak gun without the snotlings and with a hole in the matiral universe insted

Christ, i'm surprised people overestimate tau so much, "learning fast" isn't the same as "has it now" and thats the problem. Tau are below the IoM in tech level overall, though it probably won't stay that way for long but currently humanity can do pretty much anything the tau can (with various degrees of success) and more.

True

The thing is that the Tau are able to apply tech in a more general, civilization wide way. The Imperium hordes most of its super tech, and it only comes out for special occasions.
Yes but the imperium with it's very limited tech. they have to pick and choose.

Firaxin
13-06-2008, 00:17
I fail to see where limited/restricted = non-existant/never invented.

Not sure why the titan/manta debate sprung up, as its not a proper comparison. As I've mentioned, the thunderhawk would be a better comparison. It too does "more than than just its original purpose..."

chaos0xomega
13-06-2008, 01:54
This is a really tough thing to measure.

Necrons have the most advanced technology in the galaxy by far.

Eldar/Dark Eldar are high up there.

Orks don't really have technology. They just kinda think and therefore things happen, so they aren't even on the chart.

Tau are advanced with the smaller things, but they don't even have warp tech yet, so I would probably say they are really low (possibly last).

The Imperium is in between. They HAVE really advanced tech. doesn't mean they understand it.

Chaos is both above and below the Imperium. They have mostly older tech, but because the Dark Mechanicus isn't bound by the laws of the Admech, they can make more advanced stuff.

Xandros
13-06-2008, 03:36
The Tau. They may not have insane technologies, but they're the only race to produce effective weapons. Where the imperium uses a hightech projectile and the necrons teleport matter away from the target, the tau simply accelerate a projectile to insane speeds.

weissengel86
13-06-2008, 05:43
the imperium have railguns its just on ships instead of groundbased

Poseidal
13-06-2008, 07:34
The Tau. They may not have insane technologies, but they're the only race to produce effective weapons. Where the imperium uses a hightech projectile and the necrons teleport matter away from the target, the tau simply accelerate a projectile to insane speeds.

Actually, Eldar have had portable reliable railguns.

Tau weapons are only effective in 'game' terms. In terms of reliability and general use the humble Lasgun is probably superior to the Pulse rifle.

Lord Damocles
13-06-2008, 08:48
The Tau -Snip- they're the only race to produce effective weapons.

Bunkam!

The lasgun (despite it's less than impressive stats) is a far more effective weapon than the pulse rifle. Why?
-It has a larger clip size
-The power packs can be recharged by sunlight / heat
-Almost any planet with a reasonable level of technology (feudal grade or higher) can produce them in large numbers
-Varient power packs increase the punch significantly (hotshot packs)
-Easy to maintain in the field

Even admitting that the lasgun lacks the range or power of the pulse rifle, the fact that it can be produced on a far larger scale than the Tau weapon, cheaply and quickly makes it more effective.

EDIT: Poseidal actually said this first. Oops. Missed that. And yes, the Eldar Shuriken Catapult works along the same lines as the Railgun - using magnatised rails to sling the projectile towards the enemy at high speed...

borithan
13-06-2008, 08:59
I thought the shuriken catapult used gravitic acceleration... Not even sure what they is meant to mean, and presumably similar results, but not magnetised rails.

AdmiralDick
13-06-2008, 10:00
Necrons have the most advanced technology in the galaxy by far.

do they?

i mean, i know that we are told how great they are, but are we actually told in what ways specifically they trump everyone else? i can't really think of any technologies they have that no one else doesn't. they probably have the most refined version of most technologies (although i'm still not clear if their building materials are as effective as the warp energies of the Daemons or the psycho-reactive plastics of the Eldar). and they have certainly overcome the hinderence of not being able to use the Warp, which would be comprable to not being able to use Nuclear power or another natural phenomenon. but i still don't know whether they have managed to take a step beyond the Eldar.

is there such a technology, that the Necrons alone can use?

Poseidal
13-06-2008, 10:17
is there such a technology, that the Necrons alone can use?
Handwavium.

Sybaronde
13-06-2008, 10:23
Bunkam!

[snip]

Actually, we know next to nothing about the production of Pulse Rifles. For all we know, they might even be easier to mass produce (for the Tau).

Also, last I checked, the Pulse Rifle has 40 shots per clip (from Fire Warrior).

Poseidal
13-06-2008, 10:33
Actually, we know next to nothing about the production of Pulse Rifles. For all we know, they might even be easier to mass produce (for the Tau).

Also, last I checked, the Pulse Rifle has 40 shots per clip (from Fire Warrior).

If you want to use Fire Warrior as a source:

PULSE RIFLE:
Primary fire - Energy bolt, automatic fire
Secondary fire - Energy bolt, single shot
Notes - This is the standard weapon of the Tau. 32 shots in a clip.

LAS GUN:
Primary fire - Laser, automatic fire
Secondary fire - None
Notes - The las gun fires more rapidly then the pulse carbine and pulse rifle,
but is slightly less accurate. 40 shots in a clip

What's more, I think the Bolter hits harder than the Pulse Rifle in that game...

Sybaronde
13-06-2008, 10:36
If you want to use Fire Warrior as a source:

Normally, I really wouldn't. It misrepresents almost all the weapons in the game. I remember having trouble killing Storm Troopers with a melta gun...

Firaxin
13-06-2008, 12:02
The Tau.
...


They may not have insane technologies, but they're the only race to produce effective weapons. Where the imperium uses a hightech projectile and the necrons teleport matter away from the target, the tau simply accelerate a projectile to insane speeds.
If you're going by "simple" is more "effective" than "hightech", the lasgun beats the pulse rifle every day.



Also, last I checked, the Pulse Rifle has 40 shots per clip (from Fire Warrior).
Even if it does, lasguns have more like 60 shots, so...



LAS GUN:
Primary fire - Laser, automatic fire
Secondary fire - None
Notes - The las gun fires more rapidly then the pulse carbine and pulse rifle,
but is slightly less accurate. 40 shots in a clip[QUOTE=Poseidal;2695741]
I don't see how a laser can be less accurate than anything. Lasweapons ought to have a rule reflecting how they're the most accurate weapon in the game. But they don't. Also, we know the primary/secondary fire types are wrong, as single fire is used in many a book. And I've already talked about the 40 shots.

[QUOTE=Poseidal;2695741]
What's more, I think the Bolter hits harder than the Pulse Rifle in that game...
And thus we shouldn't use it for accurate information... especially if melta weapons aren't killing stormtroopers outright.

Sybaronde
13-06-2008, 12:34
...
Even if it does, lasguns have more like 60 shots, so...


I think to this point, it's pretty hard to verify what amount of shots either rifle has per clip. However, a pulse rifle can take out a Rhino, Sentinel and Land Speeder, for example, none of which a lasgun can do.

Nazguire
13-06-2008, 14:17
I think to this point, it's pretty hard to verify what amount of shots either rifle has per clip. However, a pulse rifle can take out a Rhino, Sentinel and Land Speeder, for example, none of which a lasgun can do.


Due to the AV of a Rhino, a pulse rifle destroying a Rhino is an extremely rare occurence and in order for it to happen in the background, realistically, would require an extremely concentrated volley of a lot of pulse rifles. The AV system isn't a good way of representing vehicle toughnesses.

I have no doubt that a lot of pulse rifles could smash a Sentinel to the ground however.

Koryphaus
14-06-2008, 03:55
I guess a good example of how the Imperium is still developing new vehicles and technologies, is the Marauder Destroyer. It was developed during the 2nd War for Armageddon, when the losses of Marauder Bombers were extreme, and forced the remaining Marauder Squadrons to fly very low to the ground, and at night to avoid Ork Fighta patrols, which lead to the development of the Destroyer, with weaponry designed for strafing runs, rather than high altitude bombing.

People, please stop telling everyone that the Eldar are advanced because they invented the webway.. They didn't invent the webway, it is a creation of the Old Ones. The Eldar use the webway, but they didn't create it.


But as I mentioned before, I guess an invasion could still be justified because there are bound to be thousands of troops in the 40th millennium with specialist equipment to fight this sort of thing

The Death Guard would love Tyrannid invasions wouldn't they? It'd be just like Christmas!

Ekranoplan
14-06-2008, 05:06
The Imperium's primary military strategy does not really require all that much technology. It is dependent on having plenty of meat for the grinder. Considering hiveworlds have upwards of hundreds of billions of humans, and that the Imperium has many hiveworlds (and that a human population tends to double every 100 years) , the Imperium can just keep on throwing more soldiers into the fray until the problem goes away. The Lasgun is perfect for this job, because like humans, the Imperium can produce them in great abundance. An entire regiment of guard could be surrounded, cut off, and on the verge of defeat, but their trusty lasguns will always work. And every once in awhile, that will lead to an Imperium victory.

The Tau really do not have the numbers to throw away troopers like the Imperium. Whereas the Imperium can throw troopers into the fray, and not having to worry about supplying ammunition for the lasguns, the Tau cannot expect the same thing from their Pulse Rifles.

EvilMinion
14-06-2008, 05:20
The origional list is probably the most acurate... (poor Orks!)

Koryphaus
14-06-2008, 05:59
The Lasgun is perfect for this job, because like humans, the Imperium can produce them in great abundance. An entire regiment of guard could be surrounded, cut off, and on the verge of defeat, but their trusty lasguns will always work. And every once in awhile, that will lead to an Imperium victory.

So do you mean that the Imperium only wins battles occaisionally?

Jimbobjeff
14-06-2008, 06:58
Personally I think the crons have this one, they have developed true ftl drive and interstellar teleportation! The eldar are a close second mind.

WorLord
14-06-2008, 07:19
The most advanced tech in 40K - Necrons - living metal, advanced power sources, teleportation, etc.

The runner up - Eldar (craftwprld and dark) - especially w/ their wraithbone constructs.

The one to look out for - Tau - Of all the races in 40K, they are the only ones that are currently researching and developing new technologies. And at a rapid pace too. The necrons have been dormant for millions of years and the eldar are dying off, so no new advances there. The orks don't actually understand their tech - it just works. The imperium has advanced tech, but they have lost/forgotten many of their most advanced achievements and tend to view most research as techno-heresy (looking for lost STC's doesn't count:p).

Malevon
14-06-2008, 08:35
Right off the bat I'm going to say that I didn't read every post in this thread, so forgive me if any of this has been stated before or definitively contradicted.

I'm afraid that anyone who would not put Necrons at the top does not understand the background of Warhammer very well. (Tyranids, not having traditional technology or self-awareness, to the best of my knowledge, are out of the running.) Necrons have technology more advanced than any other faction in the galaxy. This is a canon fact. This has been definitively stated in background material: "Their miraculous technology far in advance of any contemporary equivalent" (Codex Necrons). Necrons possess teleportation technology unrivaled by any other race. Necrons possess technology capable of atomizing living things as well as machinery. Their living metal is unrivaled by any other race. There are a few other things to remember in regard to Necrons:

Firstly, the Necrontyr made their own technology, and they understand it. It can be reasonably argued that the Eldar gained much of their technology and knowledge from their creators, and while the argument that Orks will advance to the level of technology they are confronted with has been tossed around a lot in this thread, I would contend that their technology has a limit. Ork technology cannot advance any farther than the Old Ones programmed into their genetic code. Yes, they can adapt, but the fact that they have been confronted with Necron technology and not magically reproduced it is testament to this. (As an aside, no race besides the Necrons possesses the ability to completely kill a world down to its micro-organisms, a technology that makes the Orks much less effective against the Necrons than against many other races.) Even the Adeptus Mechanicus has been hinted at receiving some of the great technological achievements of the Dark Age of Technology from the Void Dragon and his Necrons buried deep within Mars.

Secondly, we have not seen the height of the Necrons technology. Without the Talismans of Vaul, the full fighting force of the Necrons are nigh-invincible. Background sources on the Necrons stress that the Necrons currently active in the galaxy are only the first to awake, only hints at the full might of the Necrons.

That solidifies Necrons as number one on my list.

After Necrons, I would put Eldar. Althought the Eldar may not have made all of the technology, they seem to understand it, which means they can make advances in it, even if they are loathe to do so. Eldar can do with light plastic what lesser races require metal to do. Craftworlds are beyond the ability of other races to create or maintain. Eldar have better Warp technology and better weapons than the Imperium: "You ask me what my Order needs? I will tell you. Give me the Pulse Lasers of the Eldar to mount on my Warlords" (Grand Master Roger Evars, shortly before his replacement as the head of the Nova Guard Collegia Titanica). Eldar possess plasma weaponry that does not overheat, something that eludes the Imperium. The Eldar possess better cloaking devices and anti-gravity technology than the Imperium. The Eldar also possess advanced arcane technology such as Spirit Stones, which, while I am not intimately familiar with, I know are beyond the technology of other races. Be careful not to dismiss Eldar technology as magic -- remember, sufficiently advanced technology is often indistinguishable from magic. This puts Eldar solidly in second place.

Dark Eldar are not different enough in my opinion to warrant a separate description. Even if they were to be categorized separately, they would have to be equal to Eldar, for, despite their lack of grand feats like Craftworlds or titans, Dark Eldar appear to have superior mastery of the Webway, evidenced in the inability of others to reach Commoragh.

Tau would have to come next. The technology of Tau would be in competition for second if not for their lack of Warp Travel. They use an alternative technology provided by mercenary Demiurgs, but this technology is both less effective and not actually theirs. Tau have artificial intelligence second only to the Necrons. Eldar do not use AI, and it is widely feared and abhorred in the Imperium, used only by the Adeptus Mechanicus in the Legio Cybernetica. The robots of the Legio Cybernetica use a primitive artificial brain called a Cortex however, and even these are prone to malfunction, contributing to the fear and disuse of AI in the Imperium. Tau also possess superior cloaking devices, as well as pulse weapons that have longer range and greater accuracy than Imperial laser technology, and improved safety and stability over Imperial plasma technology.

The Imperium would come next. Many people do not seem to understand how technologically dead the Imperium is. Most Imperial subjects live in a medieval state, and even the height of Imperial technology is in many ways less than what humans possess today. The Imperium, for the most part, does not use computers. Go read a Black Library novel. You will notice that the devices that function similarly to computers in our world generally do not use microchip technology. Some computers of the Imperium are purely mechanical, like a more advanced version of Charles Babbage's difference engine. Some are run on the lobotomized brains of criminals and other undesirables. Imperial tanks have boilers and exhaust pipes, and take thick metal armour to accomplish what other races can do with plastics and alloys. Perhaps more importantly than the actual state of Imperial technology is the fact that they do not understand it whatsoever. Even the Adeptus Mechanicus regard basic technology as arcane and mysterious, and believe that technology is run miraculously by a Machine Spirit. I can't remember the exact line, but in Rebel Winter, a Vostroyan commander thinks something along the lines of: "I have no idea how a vox-caster works, but by some miracle of the Machine Spirit it does, and that is all that matters." Do you all understand that? An above-average Imperial citizen does not understand how radio waves work. The Imperium is truly technologically stagnant. This is not to say that they do not possess some impressive feats of technology: genetic engineering, rechargeable laser weaponry, power armour, warp travel: these are all beyond the scope of modern human technology, but still primitive and unimpressive when compared with the races above the Imperium on this list. Even the cloning processes used by the Imperium aren't perfect, as evidenced by the many mutations present in the geneseeds of Space Marines. The Imperium's (partial) dominance of the galaxy is maintained by numbers, not technology.

I did not give "Chaos," as it were, its own entry. Human followers of the ruinous powers generally have no more knowledge or concern for technology than their loyal counterparts. Daemons, on the other hand, having the benefit of not existing in the traditional sense of the word, seem to deploy technology at an equal level to that being used by their opponents. The machinations of the ruinous powers are mysterious and are best not contemplated too long my mortal minds...

Orks come in a little below humans on this list. While they possess some impressive technologies of their own (handheld teleporters, for instance), they cannot match the Imperium in every category, and Ork technology is even more prone to malfunction than that of the Imperium. The fact that some Ork technology works by the strength of Ork mental power alone points not to greater technology but to greater genetics which, while equally useful (arguably more useful), is an entirely different argument (one which Tyranids would win.)

Jokaero are worth a mention. They were an extremely technologically advanced race introduced in Rogue Trader who only ever had one miniature produced. It looked like an orangutan. They are still referenced offhand in several codexes and novels though. I didn't include them in the above list for obvious reasons, as well as the general lack of information. They'd probably fall somewhere around Tau and Eldar however.

Sorry for the long post.

danno
14-06-2008, 13:19
definatly necrons on top with their guass weaponry, living metal ect.
eldar come second, all their warp technology, non-over heating plasma, wraithbone ect
tau are catching up really fast (since eldar are dying off and necrons only just woke up)

Ekranoplan
14-06-2008, 16:44
So do you mean that the Imperium only wins battles occaisionally?

I am saying that when the Imperium is on the verge of defeat because of supply problems, their trusty lasguns will stave off defeat sometimes.

Kage2020
15-06-2008, 04:59
I'm afraid that anyone who would not put Necrons at the top does not understand the background of Warhammer very well... Necrons have technology more advanced than any other faction in the galaxy. This is a canon fact. This has been definitively stated in background material...
Well, you see, the one problem with that is that you've bandied around fact in the same sentence as canon, and thrown in a direct link to Warhammer (which is to say GW) 'fluff,' or background. "Canon fact" is as much an oxymoron as "military intelligence" is, at least if you're to listen to some of the more cynical members of the armed forces. ;) Surely anyone who would make that mistake doesn't understand the Warhammer universe very well either? ;)

Tongue-in-cheek comment aside, reasonable as it might be, one can also point out a number of problems with the cited statement. For example, contemporary to whom? (Deciding that it refers to "modern" 40k is as much an interpretation as anything else.) You're also talking about technology, which insofar as it is commonly applied to the Necrontry/Necrons, which means that we're talking about physical, mundane, non-psychic "technology." Do not write off Eldar technology as purely mundane since, after all, it is indistinguishable from magic, not exclusive of it. Last count, Necrons only had one half of that equation.

In many ways it's kind of like the situation with the Golden/Dark Age of Technology and the "Holy Grail" that is the STC. I've always considered it ironic that the Adeptus Mechanicus search for this most precious of technologies, believing that it represents the singularity point of all technology. Yet they commonly utilise technologies that were likely beyond anything that those living in the Golden/Dark Age of Technology could have thought possible: psychogenic (psyker) technology.

Quick random example. What are the relative technological merits of wraithbone over liquid metal? Or technomantic merits?

Just some thoughts... :D

Kage

Malevon
15-06-2008, 05:36
For example, contemporary to whom? (Deciding that it refers to "modern" 40K is as much an interpretation as anything else.)
I agree, but with a vague statement like the one cited, any interpretation could be valid. Even if it had pointed to the time of the War in the Heavens however, this still puts Necrons firmly in first place, being ahead of the Old Ones technologically.

You're also talking about technology, which insofar as it is commonly applied to the Necrontry/Necrons, which means that we're talking about physical, mundane, non-psychic "technology." Do not write off Eldar technology as purely mundane since, after all, it is indistinguishable from magic, not exclusive of it. Last count, Necrons only had one half of that equation.
I wasn't saying Eldar psychic ability was technology, but that their devices which harnessed it were. I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make here.

Quick random example. What are the relative technological merits of wraithbone over liquid metal? Or technomantic merits?
It can't be electrocuted by the ancient Necron's electricity weapons because it is plastic, not metal. The Necrons now active use guass weapons though, which appear to be equally effective against Wraithbone as they are against everything else.

Kage2020
15-06-2008, 06:00
I agree, but with a vague statement like the one cited, any interpretation could be valid.
Exactly. Thus "canon fact" seems to be... well, slightly more problematic than one might initially imagine.


Even if it had pointed to the time of the War in the Heavens however, this still puts Necrons firmly in first place, being ahead of the Old Ones technologically.
Yet canonically - sorry, ludicrously ;) - one has to remember that this was 65,000,000 years ago. Or thereabouts. That's an awful large amount of time that might - just might - allow more latitude to that singular statement. And, once again, the Eldar seem to have both mundane and "psychic engineering" technologies.


I wasn't saying Eldar psychic ability was technology, but that their devices which harnessed it were. I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make here.
Well, just that. It isn't just mundane technology. It is magic... it is technology... it is both. Necrons only have one of those.

Don't get me wrong. I still put Necrons at the top in the current 40k universe. I do believe, however, that pre-Fall Eldar civilisation was far more advanced than the Necrons. Then again I also believe that the Eldar went beyond the "Old Ones" in many ways (in pure 'psychic engineering,' though, they're behind), but I realise that it somewhat gauche in the current 40k community. Dang it, though, I just preferred the 'fluff.' ;)


It can't be electrocuted by the ancient Necron's electricity weapons because it is plastic, not metal. The Necrons now active use guass weapons though, which appear to be equally effective against Wraithbone as they are against everything else.
Ah, you're talking wargame manifestations? That's going to be inherently limiting because it is predicated upon the concept of wargame balance. I was thinking more along the lines of conceptual differences and similarities.

Kage

Kal Taron
15-06-2008, 10:08
@Necrons
IMO they don't really "understand" their technology anymore as well. I mean who of them has enough self/brain-power/whatever left to qualify? The C'Tan? Maybe but this might as well be too low-scale for their grasp.
Necron technology is awesome just because it is still operational after a break of 65 million years. (With use of stasis fields of course but these need energe nonetheless.)

@Eldar
It's true that they probably inherited some knowledge of the Old Ones (older fluff stated that they inherited and improved the Web Way but were unable to create something like it IIRC. Not sure how valid this still is with Webwayportals and the like.) but with the Enslaver plague and 65 million years inbetween this probably doesn't account for much. The Eldar may still understand their technology but for several reasons it is nowhere near it's peak. (Lower numbers, dead gods, few "military grade" equipment)

@topic
I really liked the approach to look into key technologies and compare them.

Materials
3 races qualify: Necrons have living metal, Eldar have Wraithbone and other less effective psycho-plastics, Humans have Adamantium (and maybe some other nifty alloys)
Nids can do some pretty amazing things with biological material und Orks work with junk and scrap metal but their results are not close. Tau are probably around todays possiblities.
So what are the (dis-)advantages of the different top materials?
Adamantium
+very hard
-difficult to produce/rare knowledge
-difficult to repair

Wraithbone
+self-regenerating (can be accelerated with psychic energy)
+easy to form with psychic methods (bonesinging)
+can transport/store psychic energy and souls
+extremely durable (even better than adamantium)
-raw materials difficult to procure (plenty on the Crone Worlds but not much use there, any other ways to get them?)
-can be infested by Chaos/Demons (Warp Spiders (the small ones) help against that though)
(Not sure how close the best materials DE have come but I guess they are quite a step behind.)

Living Metal
+fast self-repair
+very durable
+resilient against heat and radiation

So I'd say it's Necrons first with Craftworld Eldar a close second (mostly due to production issues and requirement of psykers) with Humanity a far third. Tau might get something more nifty than Adamantium in the near future but they are not there yet.

Medicine
Difficult one as there is not that much fluff about it. Necrons and Nids don't need/use it. Ork's is very efficient although crude and less hardy species wouldn't survive it most of the time. We don't know much about the Tau but they seem to be doing ok with it. Humanity has several nice tidbits like life-prolonging drugs, bioengineering etc. but for the majority of the population helf-care sucks. Eldar seem to be rather great although not much information here again.
I'd give the title to the Eldar with Humanity a close second or even grant it humanity if you look at the peak what can be done instead of the whole picture. (Eldar consider themselves perfect, Humanity created killing machines after their own image...)

Terraforming
Humanity may have done it during the DoT, Eldar have done it with the Maiden Worlds, Necrons have done the reverse with their Tomb Worlds. Humanity probably doesn't seem to have the means anymore nor the will. (They seem to be deadbent on destroying their worlds with as much polution as they can.) It's unclear wether Eldar or Necs could repeat what they have done in the past.

Production
Difficult to tell as we don't know how much Necs, Nids and Orks could produce. From what we know the IoM seems to be at the top but that could be misleading. There are probably still numerous Nids on their way and Necs sleeping. Orks use most of their resources to battle themselves.
Eldar aren't that good actually. Although they can produce all their stuff it seems to be difficult at times to get the raw materials and the crew for it (e.g. Titans needing twins or triplets). They've got the bonus that they needn't worry about polution though.

Weapons
Everyone is specialised in a different field so comparison is rather difficult. Tau have one of the most powerful portable weapons on their basic trooper but Gauss weaponry is better against vehicles.
Imperium and Orks build very sturdy and simple weapons that can be churned out buy the thousands to millions.
Eldar weapons are supposed to be a work of art each of it's own and to be very powerful. Although the rules don't reflect that too well nowadays. (ShuriCat *cough*)
When it comes to large scale weapons, all of them besides maybe Tau have some pretty nice ones.

Vehicles
Necrons build incredibly difficult to damage ones. (Don't even consider destroying them for good.) Eldar ones are very fast and agile. Imperium ones is good armoured and easy to produce/maintain. Ork ones are very easy to produce and fast but not very long-lasting.
So it depends on what you want your vehicles to do. Overall IMO CWE have about the best ones as they are fast, not too easily destroyed (in fact the current rules make them ridiculously difficult to destroy) and pack some nice punch.

Spacetravel
Necrons are best with FTL and inertialess drive. Eldar are a close second with their agility and speed and the Web Way. Imperium and Chaos are third although Chaos might get a bonus from the Gods from time to time and the Imperium might be hampered with Warp Storms. Orks just hitchhike most of the time but they seem to be able to travel willingly if there's a good reason for it (read: a really big fight). Tau are still exploring the technology and may ultimatly lack the prerequisites to master warp travel.
Not sure about Nids.

Cheesolith
15-06-2008, 10:39
Where does the idea come from that necron tech is stale?

They've only been awake for a hundred years at best and they already created the pariah.

Nazguire
15-06-2008, 11:31
Exactly, if the Pariah isn't an example of Necron science advancing (or at the very least, an example that the Necrons understand their technology enough to utilise and expand on it in different ways) then I don't know what is.

Just because we've only seen Warrior Necrons, Lords, Immortals, Pariahs, Wraiths, Flayed Ones, Destroyers and Tomb Spyders, doesn't mean that there aren't researcher type Necrons (or even that the super computers in the Tomb World complexes themselves, under the direction of the C'tan or even Platinum level Lords (that is assuming that the Tomb Worlds themselves aren't 'Platinum') are the researchers).

Tomb Spyders do more then just maintain the Necrons I'd imagine. I would assume there are different variants then the combat versions we see in the game. Ones that create and experiment for example.

Malevon
15-06-2008, 12:30
Yeah, I don't get where whoever said that Necrons aren't self-aware (too lazy to go up and quote it) is getting that. They might not talk, but I think that's more because they haven't got anything to say, and their metal mouths lack the ability to open or make sounds, than from a fundamental lack of consciousness.

In response to Cage, I wasn't talking about wargaming; the electricity vs. wraithbone constructs thing is from a story about the War in Heaven and an Inquisitor trying to figure out what it's talking about. That doesn't happen on the tabletop though; there aren't rules for ancient Necrons with lightning guns as far as I know.

About the materials comparison thing: even though the Imperium possesses the ability to make some nifty alloys, shouldn't they be docked a few points for not using them all the time? Space Marines might have access to them, but aren't Imperial Guard tanks made out of basically the same stuff our tanks are today? Eldar and Necrons, on the other hand, have their advanced materials for all of their forces. Granted, there are less of them, but the fact that they can do more with less is a testament to their technology.

In response to the non-combat Necrons thought, that is hinted at in Codex Necrons or some other source if I remember correctly.

Iracundus
15-06-2008, 12:53
In response to Cage, I wasn't talking about wargaming; the electricity vs. wraithbone constructs thing is from a story about the War in Heaven and an Inquisitor trying to figure out what it's talking about. That doesn't happen on the tabletop though

Except it does. It's called "Lightning Field"

The_Outsider
15-06-2008, 14:52
People also take the Imperium's general stance of "we don't understand it and do not advance" too literally.

Proof advances happen in the forms of the LRC, vindicator and landspeeder.

Not to mention even if somone did invent soem super stabilisation system for a leman russ's battlecannon allowing it to move and fire with pinpoint accuracy there are other logistical problems to factor in. Namely A) the IoM is huge, it could take millenia for the design to spread and B) not all forge worlds are equal, some may lack whats needed to produce this new system in a cost effective manner while another maybe able to with no problems.


Tau's only advantage when it comes to technology is the fact that their empire is tiny and thus can easily circulate the latest and greatest weaponry, armour or whatever.

Thus-

1) Necrons
2) Eldar (of all flavours)
3) IoM / chaos
4) Orks/tau (orks have an innate understanding that puts them on par with the tau)


I haven't rated the Tyranids as they are playing by different rules.

Kage2020
15-06-2008, 17:24
It's true that they probably inherited some knowledge of the Old Ones...
That in and of itself might be problematic. Given the length of time involved between the height of the Eldar 'empire' and the War in Heaven, "inheriting" knowledge from the Old Ones might be a fairly meaningless statement. I mean, we've inherited a great deal of information from earlier cultures but that in no way means that we don't understand those technologies, nor that we have not made them our own.

Erm, so I guess what I'm suggesting is that just because the Eldar (re)discovered some of the technologies of the Old Ones doesn't mean that they are beholden to the Old Ones for that technology.

Well, unless...

...you argue that the 'fluff' from Legion definitively places the Old Ones back into the Dark Millennium.
Not sure that it does that, but there we go.


...older fluff stated that they inherited and improved the Web Way but were unable to create something like it IIRC.
This is a common fan interpretation, for sure, and one that I have used myself in the past. Never been sure of the true validity of it, though, but it is just the one that seems to fit into the "balance of the 'fluff'."


The Eldar may still understand their technology but for several reasons it is nowhere near it's peak. (Lower numbers, dead gods, few "military grade" equipment)
Yet the Eldar are a post-industrial society...


Wraithbone
+self-regenerating (can be accelerated with psychic energy)
+easy to form with psychic methods (bonesinging)
+can transport/store psychic energy and souls
+extremely durable (even better than adamantium)
-raw materials difficult to procure (plenty on the Crone Worlds but not much use there, any other ways to get them?)
-can be infested by Chaos/Demons (Warp Spiders (the small ones) help against that though)
Wraithbone is, at least in some of the 'fluff,' drawn from the warp through Spirit Stones by Bonesingers -- it has little to do with the Crone Worlds, unless at least you're a fan of the idea that Spirit Stones can only come from those worlds. (Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, all things considered, but it is one of the core statements of the 'fluff' on the Eldar.)


So I'd say it's Necrons first with Craftworld Eldar a close second (mostly due to production issues and requirement of psykers)...
I think that the most important feature here is that living metal and wraithbone are very similar, but based on two entirely separate technological tracks. And, to be fair, the interrelationship of those tracks is not something that is ever truly discussed in the 40k hobbyist literature (only by the foolish fans! ;)).


Terraforming... It's unclear wether Eldar or Necs could repeat what they have done in the past.
The "Golden Age Doctrine," as I have taken to calling it, or the idea that things were just better in the past, is one of the key themes of the 40k universe. Thus it is not surprising that some of the more advanced technologies don't show up in the current 40k universe -- it's just not significant to the primary theme of "There is Only War."


Production
Difficult to tell as we don't know how much Necs, Nids and Orks could produce. From what we know the IoM seems to be at the top but that could be misleading.
In terms of sheer volume, the Imperium of Man does seem to be the big hitter. With that said, writing off the Necrons and the Eldar seems a mistake. While an arguable point, their status as post-industrial societies likely gives them far more of an edge in technological production than the Imperium of Man.

Canonically, the idea of limited resources for the Eldar - a race who conjures one of their primary materials from the aethyr - seems to be a bit silly when it comes down to it. And the twin/triplet thing for Titans likewise fits into that category, even though it is an interesting bit of 'fluff.'


Weapons... Vehicles
This is very much a matter of Wargame Balance, perhaps more than anything else that has been discussed thus far.


They've only been awake for a hundred years at best and they already created the pariah.
The (somewhat large) assumption here is that just because it utilises a new component that the idea is new and 'newly developed.' This is self-evident, or at least I would suggest as such.

Understanding is, as Nazguire expands upon, a very different issue. Then again, this once again ties back to that "Golden Age Doctrine."


They might not talk, but I think that's more because they haven't got anything to say, and their metal mouths lack the ability to open or make sounds, than from a fundamental lack of consciousness.
Ridiculous example, perhaps, but C3PO also couldn't open its mouth but it was rather famous for talking. Just because a thing doesn't have a mouth doesn't mean that it cannot communicate.


In response to Cage, I wasn't talking about wargaming; the electricity vs. wraithbone constructs thing is from a story about the War in Heaven and an Inquisitor trying to figure out what it's talking about.
That's a "K," there. And fair enough. I'm behind on the 40k reading because, well, it's so hard to force myself to read it. Which story are you referring to, out of interest?


People also take the Imperium's general stance of "we don't understand it and do not advance" too literally.
That is because, as above, it is a central theme to the 40k universe and the Imperium of Man particularly. That whole "Adeptus Me-can't-icus" approach to the Adeptus Mechanicus...


Namely A) the IoM is huge, it could take millenia for the design to spread...
Because the Imperium of Man doesn't have the ability to rapidly communicate ideas?


...not all forge worlds are equal, some may lack whats needed to produce this new system in a cost effective manner while another maybe able to with no problems.
When does 'cost effectiveness' come into play with the Imperium, other than the idea that they send their troops into battle with WWII-level technologies? ;)

Just some more thoughts/comments.

Kage

DarkMatter2
15-06-2008, 17:36
The Imperium doesn't seem to need massive technological advantages. It seems to be doing mostly just fine with its bulky, "its rough but dependable" sort of set-up.

Kage2020
15-06-2008, 18:16
Aye, but at the same time one of the things that has to be remembered about the Imperium of Man, and indeed something that cannot be understated, is that it primarily works because GW says that it does. ;)

Kage

Nazguire
15-06-2008, 18:56
The Imperium doesn't seem to need massive technological advantages. It seems to be doing mostly just fine with its bulky, "its rough but dependable" sort of set-up.

Or rather, it would be doing fine if more then a select minority of Tech-priests, low-key engineers in some hive and the Fabricator-General understoood their 'rough but dependable' (which is debateable in itself) technology.

Currently, the majority treat the technology like a holy relic, some treat it as a holy relic that needs to be understood, some treat technology like scientology (something to further the mind to full understanding) and as such study it with a cross-reverence, others shun it, others ignore, fear it, seek to expand upon it etc etc.

It'd be even better if the Mechanicus could, as a whole, decide what they want to do with technology and whether or not they wish to revere technology as an untouchable holy icon that is punishable by death to even look curious at, as a holy relic that can be expanded on provided there are the right circumstances (e.g. new STC template; the Astartes are pushing through a design they commandeered themselves; some Fabricator General thinks it's appropriate/will further his own political agenda) or as a holy icon that is in decline and must be advanced in order to 'save' the Omnissiah.

Even deciding, as a whole, that the technology of Mankind isn't to be trifled with would be better off then all the 'maybe', 'yes' and 'no' that the Cult Mechanicus create currently.

Iracundus
15-06-2008, 19:20
Even deciding, as a whole, that the technology of Mankind isn't to be trifled with would be better off then all the 'maybe', 'yes' and 'no' that the Cult Mechanicus create currently.

The variance of opinion is because the Adeptus Mechanics like most Imperium wide institutions, including the Inquisition, is schismed with different schools of thought. Just about the only thing they seem to agree on is that the control of technology should be left to them rather than the common layman. That said there does seem to be an official orthodoxy that they at least have to be seen as paying lip service to: namely the STC is the holy grail of human technology and a sort of singularity point that encompasses all that is worth knowing in the universe. Any new research or advancement ends up having to justify itself as being an allowed for variation within the STC templates (whether or not this is really the case). Occasionally you might get employment of xenos tech like C'tan phase swords but these seem to be select applications and possibly only grudgingly overlooked by the orthodox AdMech.

The_Outsider
15-06-2008, 20:00
Because the Imperium of Man doesn't have the ability to rapidly communicate ideas?

Not really, telepathic messages sent over interstellar distances take time, not to mention entire star systems simply get forgotten getting a particular schematic from Mars to say, Cadia is going to take a while, regardless of other factors involved (things like the time dilation effect).



When does 'cost effectiveness' come into play with the Imperium, other than the idea that they send their troops into battle with WWII-level technologies? ;)

Even the IoM understands cost effectiveness, otherwise every guardsmen would be equipped with boltguns - but boltguns are expensive to produce and maintain and equipping a thousand solders + spares is one thing, equipping millions + spares in addition to the required logistical support (things like training a guardsmen to properly clean it, the skilled techpriests to repair them etc) is simply way too expensive when the cost of a guardsmen's life is relatively low.

Life is cheap, weapons are not.

Kage2020
15-06-2008, 23:33
The variance of opinion is because the Adeptus Mechanics like most Imperium wide institutions, including the Inquisition, is schismed with different schools of thought.
It is perhaps the most realistic thing about the Imperium! :D


Not really, telepathic messages sent over interstellar distances take time...
Well, that's a given. That does not address the issue of the speed of the transfer of ideas, which is still going to be fast. The nature of that transfer is actually a far more interesting premise, and here one imagines that it is not a game of dominoes, one message knocking on to the other in a long line. Rather, you would have a geometric progression along established routes of trade, which would include both astropathic and physical (warp) means of communication.

But there we go. It's not quite as ludicrous a proposition as you might imagine. Indeed, if there is only a single point of origin, and it sends out two means of communication (astropathic communication, ship, or whatever), and each destination sends out two messages, then it takes 20 "waves" before the "million worlds" of the Imperium are reached. Whatever that means.

That's an awful lot of ships, true, but not an awful lot of astropathic communication time. Then again, once you get to astrotelepathy, then you've got to question how much information can be exchanged. If you're to believe the standard sources and interpretations then it would be... a lot. I don't believe that, but there we go.


...not to mention entire star systems simply get forgotten...
Truly one of those things that is meant to be evocative of the Imperium. While one could, if one makes a lot of assumptions, imagine that this could happen on the Imperial level, on the local level? That just strikes me as one of those things that is said often without thought. (Not saying that this is the case here...)


...regardless of other factors involved (things like the time dilation effect).
If there wasn't some predictability - the concept of averages - then the Imperium truly would not work.


Even the IoM understands cost effectiveness...
Of course, with a plausible/realistic look at the Imperium that would be the case. Based on the imagery of the game universe, though, one has to wonder whether that is the case.


...otherwise every guardsmen would be equipped with boltguns...
I doubt that. I don't think that it is in their army list. ;)


...but boltguns are expensive to produce and maintain and equipping a thousand solders...
Probably no more expensive than lasguns, and more than likely a lot less. Then again, that's with the plausible/realistic outlook. In terms of the simple statement then, yes, that would be true...

Mostly. Cannot help but shake the idea of the "industrial military complex" and how much cash gets spent on... Ah well, again. That's the whole plausible/real thing again.


...is simply way too expensive when the cost of a guardsmen's life is relatively low.
Yet if we're trying to bring the realism into the Imperium of Man, then one has to consider the true cost of life. It has a cost, and that cost is not cheap.


Life is cheap, weapons are not.
The average cost of a life would get you around 512 M16's. Even in places where "life is cheap" you'd still get around 8-9 M16's. So it's actually the other way around. Weapons are cheap, life is not... even if it is a currency that is spent without regard to the cost.

Of course, that's realism once again. 40k? Well, "There is only war" after all. ;)

Kage

ThorOdensson
16-06-2008, 00:31
On the transmission of new designs with the Imperium, you have to factor in that the forge worlds are schismed from each other as well, they withhold technology from each other i.e. Once some forge worlds are destroyed certain technologies are lost because the information hasn't been shared. Secrets bring power and prestige and the forge worlds like to have power.

There is one group that does share technology quickly (for the most part) and innovates and that is the Space Marines a good case of this is the Annihilator pattern which was already in widespread use by Marine Chapters before the Mechanicus approved it. The Baal pattern appears to be an exception. I suspect in the Guard anyone trying the **** marines get up to would be executed post-haste.

Kage2020
16-06-2008, 02:06
Well, the internecine conflict of the Adeptus Mechanicus are one of those things that I feel is over-stated, but with that said I do agree that it is a factor. Kinda. Guess it just comes down to universe-specific preferences, since to be honest I can think of as many reasons why the Space Marines are going to be as "cagey" as the Adeptus Mechanicus, or why they would be as open as the Space Marines, depending on how you wish to see the argument.

Kage

ThorOdensson
16-06-2008, 02:42
Well, the internecine conflict of the Adeptus Mechanicus are one of those things that I feel is over-stated, but with that said I do agree that it is a factor. Kinda. Guess it just comes down to universe-specific preferences, since to be honest I can think of as many reasons why the Space Marines are going to be as "cagey" as the Adeptus Mechanicus, or why they would be as open as the Space Marines, depending on how you wish to see the argument.

Kage

On the Space Marines their openness only seems to relate to their technology/weapons etc and then only with other Chapters and Mars. They are quite cagey on everything else.

Kage2020
16-06-2008, 03:21
All seems like a rather suspect exception to an exception of an exception, to me at least... ;)

Kage

Nazguire
16-06-2008, 03:38
The variance of opinion is because the Adeptus Mechanics like most Imperium wide institutions, including the Inquisition, is schismed with different schools of thought.

Yes I know, I stated that. The Imperium is such a collossal organisation, consisting of quadrillions of people with tens of thousands of cultures, that different schools of thought ranging from slightly different to wildly radical are inevitable.



Just about the only thing they seem to agree on is that the control of technology should be left to them rather than the common layman.

Not much different to today really is it? I mean, you don't generally if your car needs a new engine hoist it off to ya mate next door for him to construct a new engine and install it do you?
Or with warranties that say that 'only this dealer/manufacture/supplier (whatever it may be) is authorised to repair/service/replace this car/console/engine/tyre/instrument (whatever it may be) or the warranty and related offers are null and void' suggesting only licenced/registered/regulated people are able to control this machine or whatever.

Get the point I'm making. The Adeptus Mechanicus is just an exaggerated version of today where only the professionals and trained people are 'allowed' by law (whether by warranty or whatever) to look at the technology.
You don't see your neighbour designing a fusion reactor and then marketing it do you? Only engineers, physicists etc employed by technological companies (there are exceptions obviously) do things like this and the same goes for the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Plus, I'm sure somewhere in the Imperium there is a school of Tech-priests that believe the Omnissiah is for everyone and everyone should share in the strength of the Machine God and this sect allows the common person to 'have a tinker' as it were.



That said there does seem to be an official orthodoxy that they at least have to be seen as paying lip service to: namely the STC is the holy grail of human technology and a sort of singularity point that encompasses all that is worth knowing in the universe. Any new research or advancement ends up having to justify itself as being an allowed for variation within the STC templates (whether or not this is really the case). Occasionally you might get employment of xenos tech like C'tan phase swords but these seem to be select applications and possibly only grudgingly overlooked by the orthodox AdMech.

Really depends on how much clout you have in the Imperium I believe for the Adeptus Mechancius to even consider it. Terminator armour wasn't an STC design, neither was power armour if I remember correctly (both designed just before and during the Great Crusade) and because the Emperor said (an extreme case yes) 'let it be so' it was done.

And look at all the psychic technology employed by the Imperium. Psychics had not fully manifested themselves and were not utilised to anywhere near the extent they are now in the Imperium during the Dark/Golden Age of Technology. It stands to reason that this technology is completely non-STC yet because it is necessary (in the eyes of the High Lords, and because the Astropaths/Navigators really want to continue living without being purged as mutants...;)) the High Lords and the Navigator Houses cry enough for the Adeptus Mechanicus to have to allow it and convince themselves it was the will of the Omnissiah.