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The Bucket
06-06-2008, 02:12
Well, i really like brettonia and really want to start this themed army however when i started to read about their tactics (not playing against much brettonias myself) i heard they're really over powered... i would like to know what tactics are good if you just want to play for fun i really dont want to have more than like 40 peasents if possible because of me theme. (survivors of the red duke that decided to hunt down vampires)

Kerill
06-06-2008, 02:43
Charge?

Have a unit of mounted yeoman and pegasi knights for general harassment and then...

Charge

Condottiere
06-06-2008, 04:15
1. Find the enemy's centre of gravity.

2. Point Knight Lances in general direction.

3. Move until btb contact.

4. Win!;)

Donga666
06-06-2008, 10:40
If you want to have a differant Bret army. Other than 3-4 lances of 9, a couple of 25 ish M@A's, a treb, some archers and a few peggies/yeomen. Which is the everytime 2000 pt Bret army! just do a search in the Army list forum, you'll see what I mean!

OR the nasty RAF/all 9 knight lance army, which will win you NO friends. Point and press at it's worse!

I have played all of the above, they all have their challenges, some more than others. Some armies you will struggle against (gun line/mage hammer) some you will walk over (hords + other Close-combat armies).

I have ditched the whole lot and I'm going MSU, no lance bigger than 6 just to make things more interesting. Admittedly there are about 7 of them but I have the lowest character points spent of all the gamers down the club. So the challenges have change, I walk over gun-lines, they can kill one or two a turn, but 7 is too many :D But hords have become more interesting, I have to think a bit more and plan my charges a bit better. I cannot sent one lance into anything other than a piddly missile weapon reginment. I have to send 2-3 into most ranked regiments, but that has rekindled my love of Brets.

But its what rings your bell!

Talonz
06-06-2008, 17:25
Loosen your theme a bit, because peasants is where its at for fun challenging games with bretts imo. I dont necesarily mean all peasants, but knights supported by plenty of peasants. Archers, MAA, trebs etc. Your options become wider and your army is well, more of an army.

Andrew Luke
06-06-2008, 21:32
Dude, use flaggellent bits to turn your peasants into townsfolk on a witch hunt! BURN THE WITCH!! :-D

Bretonnian Lord
07-06-2008, 01:41
With knights, you have to maneuver your units well, pick your fights, and avoid ones you can't win. Simply charging any enemy you see is a good way to get all your knights killed, contrary to popular belief. Bretonnian knights are good, but more often than not a lance of 9 will get bogged down against an infantry block unless it is supported by other units.

Bretonnians aren't really overpowered (probably on par with the newest armies out, High Elves, Wood Elves, Demons, Dwarves, etc...), it's just that many players irrationally fear them and would rather complain than fix their tactics. An all knight Bretonnian army is probably the easiest to deal with, since its strategy is so predictable. Getting peasants in your army will help make things interesting and also get you some great looking models!

Stinkfoot
07-06-2008, 20:56
Bretonnian Lord, that really isn't a helpful post. I don't like the "everything is fine" or "you have no right to complain" about everything attitude. It's perfectly reasonable to call for improvements to the game, or to point out things that may not be very well balanced.

As far as brettonian cavalry goes, it most certainly is a point-and-click army selection. You simply run your troops up the middle for 1-2 turns, then charge whatever is in front of you. Even super-tough enemy units will go down fairly reliably to a double lance charge, something which there is little-to-no chance of stopping. Once you punch through the enemy lines, turn around and repeat. With the exception of mass firepower, there is little that can expect to do much damage to the knights as they roll over all that stands before them.

Consider Dwarven Ironbreakers. They're probably the toughest infantry in the game. Two charging KoTR units beat them in combat by a little more than 3 points on average, and they don't cost much more than the 'Breakers. Most infantry units fold under a single lance charge (Clanrats/Empire spearman lose by about three points to a single lance). No other unit in the game combines being inexpensive, fast and dominating in combat the way KoTR and KE do.

As to the OP, consider taking infantry. It may mean changing your theme, but it will make your army much more fun to play with and against. Plus, men at arms are great models that will be a lot of fun to paint, and have a decent unit profile to boot!

W0lf
07-06-2008, 22:28
Haha bretonnian lord.

I almost thought you were being serious in your post. Bretonnians arnt over-powered or bretonnians require tatics... ha ha ha ha.

The only tactical brets are the ones who play another race aswell. Contrary to popular belief target selection is not 'tactics'.

Bretonnian Lord
08-06-2008, 03:34
I've fielded all knight armies before and I fail to see how you think they're an automatic win. Quite the opposite, in fact: so many knights can be a liability. If your opponent can hold the charge, then they've pretty much got the game in the bag. Trebuchets, Bowmen, Battle Pilgrims, even the humble Men-at-Arms go a long way to soaking up wounds and keeping the enemy pressed on every front. I love it when my friends and I switch armies and they field all knight Bretonnian lists- the tactics are so predictable that it's easy to trap the knights, even with their extended movement range.

Bretonnian knights definitely are stronger than normal knights, no point denying that, but they're hardly an unstoppable magic super weapon. The truth is, you can't simply charge by turn 2, punch through the enemy's lines, turn around and repeat unless your opponent is inexperienced. A good general knows the inevitable Bretonnian strategy and will easily defeat it.

Maybe it's because I've played Brets for two years, but their weaknesses seem glaringly obvious to me, and easy to take advantage of when I play a different army. Hell, you don't even need magic or shooting to beat them (although it helps whittle down knight units)- you will most certainly outnumber the Bretonnians, and this alone will let a canny general out-maneuver them.

You don't defeat knights by killing them- you beat them through combat resolution. Shooting and magic are best used to pick off knights to deny Bretonnians rank bonuses, and subsequently weaken them in close combat. Vampire Counts and High Elves in particular have it very easy against Bretonnians- a plethora of unbreakable/stubborn units and ASF makes it hard for all knight armies to win, which lacks reliable combat resolution after the charge.

Also, a 25 man unit of Ironbreakers is about 100 points less than two units of 9 KotR each. With that margin, it's pretty incredible that the Dwarves only lose combat by 3 points. Slap in a Battle standard bearer to fill the points gap and the Bretonnians now have two knight units that are pretty much useless the rest of the game. Seems pretty good to me, one unit can tie up a quarter of the Bretonnian army indefinitely.

Stinkfoot
08-06-2008, 04:29
Ok, explain to me how a non-unbreakable army can "easily defeat" a Bret army like this:

6 units of 9 KotR with full command
1 unit of 9 KE with the banner of +1 strength (Errantry Banner?)
Two paladins with a couple of magic items, one with the Battle Standard
Scroll caddy damsel

That's about 70 points of points of magic gear on the general, probably some kind of anti-lord kit. This is a 2000 pt army by the way.


This army likely has more units than it's opponent, plus it's units are very fast and incredibly durable (even for knights!). Assuming a standard 2000 point list has 3-4 units of infantry, this army can double charge everything at once, all but guaranteeing victory. Against horde armies you can either concentrate on a flank (who is going to be fast enough to stop you?) or just send a lance against each enemy, with a hero helping out against their elites. This isn't even a particularly powerful Bret army, as I didn't include things like Pegasus knights or other elements of the RAF.

So, pray tell- assuming you don't have ASF Swordmasters or unbreakable skeletons in your army, what are you going to do to stop this Moderate-by-Bretonnian-Standards beast?

neXus6
08-06-2008, 05:00
Yeah it really is the double charge that does it. Two lances hitting the front of most ranked units will get the FULL benefit of the formation from both units which is usually about 16 knight attacks and 14 horses...in addition to 1 or 2 ranks + standard...and a combined unit strength of 38...that will probably tear through anything that isn't unbreakable, and certainly make a horrible mess of an unbreakable unit.

Oh an this would **** Swordmasters, the swordmasters would probably only kill 4 knights still leaving 10 knights to attack back against T3 5+ save elves.

I wish there was a Human army in Fantasy that I liked but Empire don't appeal to me at all, and Brets that don't have a fairly large number of peasants are a boring army to play both with and against.

Kerill
08-06-2008, 08:51
All knight brets are even duller than Khorne knight armies were (played one once, boring as hell) since brets don't even have to worry about frenzy and shielding line of sight in the face of an army with light cavalry and some missile troops/magic. Peasant heavy brets are a lot more interesting and you might actually need some tactics to win and you can walk away and feel you deserved to win when you do.

scarletsquig
08-06-2008, 13:51
The cookie cutter bretonnian list runs into a lot of problems against Empire.

2 helblasters, 2 cannons, 2 metal mages, countercharging units of 1+ save knights, stubborn greatswords, unbreakable flagellants, war altar, steam tank... all these things really ruin a knights day. Pistoliers and outriders also annoy the hell out of them. Screwing up those double charges is a piece of cake if you know how to use detachments properly, and align them to gain a flank charge or extra cannon/helblaster shot once they've been killed.

And don't get me started on Dwarfs. ;)

Bretonnian Lord
08-06-2008, 16:35
Ok, explain to me how a non-unbreakable army can "easily defeat" a Bret army like this:

6 units of 9 KotR with full command
1 unit of 9 KE with the banner of +1 strength (Errantry Banner?)
Two paladins with a couple of magic items, one with the Battle Standard
Scroll caddy damsel

That's about 70 points of points of magic gear on the general, probably some kind of anti-lord kit. This is a 2000 pt army by the way.


This army likely has more units than it's opponent, plus it's units are very fast and incredibly durable (even for knights!). Assuming a standard 2000 point list has 3-4 units of infantry, this army can double charge everything at once, all but guaranteeing victory. Against horde armies you can either concentrate on a flank (who is going to be fast enough to stop you?) or just send a lance against each enemy, with a hero helping out against their elites. This isn't even a particularly powerful Bret army, as I didn't include things like Pegasus knights or other elements of the RAF.

So, pray tell- assuming you don't have ASF Swordmasters or unbreakable skeletons in your army, what are you going to do to stop this Moderate-by-Bretonnian-Standards beast?

Well you could always go magic heavy... Tzeentch or Slann would probably work best. Alternatively, with horde armies, just sacrifice a couple of your units to get the Bretonnian knights into a position where they can be flanked. Obviously, since all Bretonnians do is charge forward, it shouldn't be that hard to lure them into a trap if you're smart.

I only have my friend's Lizardmen book on me, so here's what I'd say:

Saurus Cavalry with Haunchi's Blessed Totem with an attached Scar Vet= outcharges any Bretonnian unit, and can definitely tie it down in combat if not break it on the charge due to outnumbering+fear+wounds caused. This unit will surprise the Bretonnian player, take one of his knight units out early, and threaten his flank.

Skinks= lots of small units of them. Move them forward on turn 1, so they are march blocking the Bretonnians. If the knights charge the Skinks, you can either flee, putting the Bretonnians in a bad position, or hold. If they skinks hold, they will probably be broken, but it's unlikely that the overrun roll will be sufficient for the Bretonnians to hit your main lines. Then, you can counter attack- Kroxigors work well, since they can charge through skinks, have decent movement, and get a lot of high strength attacks. If Kroxigors flank a knight unit, those Bretonnians are stuck for awhile. They won't break, but neither will the Kroxigors, and keeping them tied down is what matters.

Mages= Probably one or two Skink priests, since the Brets only have one damsel. Bane head the Paladin BSB to kill him off quickly (only 3+ 6++, not hard to take down), and then chip away at their magical defenses with spells from the lore of heavens. D6 str 4 hits no armor saves? Killer against Bretonnians, since all they get is a 6+ ward.

Stegadons= stubborn, have a bolt thrower, plus are useful for a counter attack if you catch the Bretonnians out of position using skink baiting units. With a Scar Vet BSB nearby, these things will almost never break, which ties up Bretonnian knights without even needing a flank charge like Kroxigors do.

Finally, give the Scar vet BSB the Gleaming Pendant of Chotec, Spawning of Quetzl, plop him in a unit of 25 Saurus warriors with Quetzl's spawning. The unit will strke first before charging knights with an assload of strength 4 hits, probably killing off 3 knights. In return, the Bretonnians get 13 strength 5 attacks back (assuming double charged), of which about 6 will wound. The Saurus will take around 4 casualties with their 5+ saves. So, Brets do 1 more wound and outnumber- but the Saurus have an extra rank, and Cold Blooded, re rollable, LD 7. It's unlikely they'll run, and the two knight units are bogged down in combat indefinitely.

Basically, the gist of the strategy is: wear down the Bretonnian knight units with magic and shooting. Since one knight dead means they lose an entire rank bonus, each turn should see about 1 or 2 units losing their +2 rank bonus.

Then, using forward skink baiting units, give the Bretonnians a choice: ignore the skinks, and waste a couple turns maneuvering for a better position while under a hail of fire, or charge the skinks and possibly overrun into a worse position? Either way, with Haunchi's Totem and good unit placement, at least a few of the Bretonnian units will be charged and bogged in combat.

Finally, once the weakened Bretonnian units hit the Saurus main lines, there still isn't a guaranteed victory. Saurus infantry are tough, the knights will be whittled down and under supported with most of their army tied up, and a unit of Saurus cavalry running rampant behind their lines. And if the Lizards are smart, they'll have a unit of Kroxigors or a Stegadon in reserve, to flank the Bretonnian knights once they get locked in combat.

If all the Bretonnian does is charge blindly forward at full speed, it's really easy to lure him and trap individual elements of the army and destroy them. The list is weak because it has no magic defense (so it's at the mercy of magic heavy armies), only two LD 8 paladins with skimped on magic items (which means they won't make huge impacts on combat), and a horde of knight units that can be easily baited with small, sacrificial units, and that are completely wasted if they get stuck in combat after the charge.

StormCrow
09-06-2008, 01:41
Ok, explain to me how a non-unbreakable army can "easily defeat" a Bret army like this:

6 units of 9 KotR with full command
1 unit of 9 KE with the banner of +1 strength (Errantry Banner?)
Two paladins with a couple of magic items, one with the Battle Standard
Scroll caddy damsel

That's about 70 points of points of magic gear on the general, probably some kind of anti-lord kit. This is a 2000 pt army by the way.


Fanatics; Gorks patented knight serial killers.

3 in a unit, long bretonnian lance formation charges in. Bretonnian unit takes up to 6D6 S5 hits because they have now crushed said fanatics. Lights out.

In my eyes Bretonnian armies are far from overpowered, especially the list you mention here. If anything this particular example points out the glaring weakness of callous bret players who assume a double charge of lances can kill anything, and who assume armour and a ward save make them invincible. Add to this their poor magic defense and your list is somewhat laughable against the undead. Tomb kings WILL smash you with catapults and MSU raised zombies will ruin any coherence in your battle line, before you even factor in fear, terror, and panic checks.

I wont deny the charge of a bret lance is formidable; it should be, it's the backbone of the army. But having said that it isn't the whole army. Yes it's good against some armies, but also it is terrible against others. The same can be said of most lists, so to me this is no more overpowered than a forest spirit list or a Skarsnik night goblin horde.

R Man
09-06-2008, 03:18
Consider Dwarven Ironbreakers. They're probably the toughest infantry in the game. Two charging KoTR units beat them in combat by a little more than 3 points on average, and they don't cost much more than the 'Breakers. Most infantry units fold under a single lance charge (Clanrats/Empire spearman lose by about three points to a single lance). No other unit in the game combines being inexpensive, fast and dominating in combat the way KoTR and KE do.

I think this is wrong. You have not included any real indication of strength in this example. For example your Iron Breakers might consist of only 10 men against two 15 man lances. Generally speaking a unit of Ordinary Dwarvern Warriors with HW+S will draw against a charging lance of equal points. Obviously Dwarves are uniquely siuted to this. Other infantry will get pantsed by Knights but are often 1/4 of the price individually. Iron Breakers might loose initially on equal points, but in subsequent rounds they will be pretty much invulnerable.


Oh an this would **** Swordmasters, the swordmasters would probably only kill 4 knights still leaving 10 knights to attack back against T3 5+ save elves.

You will rarely see a unit of knights this large. It would cost a vast amount of points and be very unwieldly. SW can decimate (but not always destroy) KOTR, QK and GK at equal points (Small numbers. As the unit gets bigger the Knights are favoured). I would not engage them with anything other than KE, and only ever in despiration at that.

There are may challenging armies for Bretonnians to face, Dwarves, Empire, the Undead and Wood Elves. At first Bretonnian armies seem invincible, but we have a critical weakness, we can't really adapt very well. Other armies can change their builds and focus but we are so reliant on the charge it's not funny. Take those SM, now cast the spell that gives them the +5 ward save and they become much harder to beat. Spear Elves with subborn and the Ward would be nasty. Dwarves can make a sizable portion of their army stubborn. A wood Elf lord with arcane bodkins and the Bow of Loren can shred a unit of knights during a battle.

I'm not saying that Bretonnians are weak. Certainly not. But we are predicteble and we lack the 'bag of tricks' that other armies have.

RAF on the other hand is completely broken.

Finnigan2004
09-06-2008, 03:23
Just a minor rules point-- the gleaming pendant of Chotec only will work on the lizardman player's turn, so any strategy should not count on that. The skink priests will have to roll very well to get the appropriate spells to wear down the knights with, so again it's a tough strategy unless they have a good sacred spawning.

On the other hand, beating Brettonian cavalry is by no means impossible, but it is a very tough looking army when facing an opponent who has not tailored their list. I know two people who have such armies, and they are very successful with them (well, technically three, but my wife just likes to paint knights and does not really play with them :rolleyes:). If I were advising the original poster, I would say that depending on their play group, the Brets might be just fine, or they might make them very unpopular. Try to remember to bring knives to knife fights and guns to gun fights. If you play with fluffy players, bring some peasants.

Stinkfoot
09-06-2008, 04:01
I think this is wrong. You have not included any real indication of strength in this example. For example your Iron Breakers might consist of only 10 men against two 15 man lances. Generally speaking a unit of Ordinary Dwarvern Warriors with HW+S will draw against a charging lance of equal points. Obviously Dwarves are uniquely siuted to this. Other infantry will get pantsed by Knights but are often 1/4 of the price individually. Iron Breakers might loose initially on equal points, but in subsequent rounds they will be pretty much invulnerable.

Fair enough. I meant a 20 man Ironbreaker unit with full command, and two 9 man KoTR lances with full command. The knights do cost a bit more, but they easily can kill even rock-hard Ironbreakers (even dwarves will have a hard time passing a -3 or -4 break test). Far easier than you can expect from a unit that only costs ~33% more than the 'Breakers. The Brets can easily focus their attacks, then turn around and do it again. Even if the 'Breakers did miraculously hold, you can expect the rest of the Bret army to have broken through the dwarven lines and getting ready to rearcharge whatever managed to hold the initial wave.


You will rarely see a unit of knights this large [14 men]. It would cost a vast amount of points and be very unwieldly. SM can decimate (but not always destroy) KOTR, QK and GK at equal points (Small numbers. As the unit gets bigger the Knights are favoured). I would not engage them with anything other than KE, and only ever in despiration at that.

I think he meant 2 lances charging the SM, which is well within the realm of possibility. By the way, the Sword Masters probably won't kill 4 knights, in fact that would require an extreme stoke of luck. 2 is more likely, and even then they would be getting lucky (1.85 kills per turn of average with no unit champion or other funny business). Even with the ward save spell the SM aren't walking away from that one...

I'm not saying Brets are unbeatable, and of course a list tailored to fight them can beat them. Against a non-cheesefest, take-all-comers list though, all-cav Brets are almost unstoppable. They have more combat units than their enemy, and their units are individually better fighters. Add to that ridiculous speed, and the enemy can't do much but watch his army get run down by a horde of double-charging, hugely underpriced Bretonnian knights.

neXus6
09-06-2008, 04:01
You will rarely see a unit of knights this large.
You will not rarely see two 9 Knight strong Lances hitting a single unit rarely, and that would utterly mince as unit of Sword Masters, as I said.

Misdirection and counter charge are the best way to beat Brets, well short of a lot of save ignoring stuff, so while it can end up being pretty tactical trying to take Brets down the all Knight Bret army itself is totally devoid of tactics it's just target selection. :p

R Man
09-06-2008, 13:05
Fair enough. I meant a 20 man Ironbreaker unit with full command, and two 9 man KoTR lances with full command.

That's better.


The knights do cost a bit more, but they easily can kill even rock-hard Ironbreakers (even dwarves will have a hard time passing a -3 or -4 break test). Far easier than you can expect from a unit that only costs ~33% more than the 'Breakers. The Brets can easily focus their attacks, then turn around and do it again.

A fair bit more. Thats almost 1/4 of the Bretonnian army. And whats this about "The Brets can easily focus their attacks, then turn around and do it again"?. And Bretonnian knights are supposed to be powerful on the charge. The drop of in power afterwards is quite dramatic. If the knights do not break the enemy, they might as well surrender.


Even if the 'Breakers did miraculously hold, you can expect the rest of the Bret army to have broken through the dwarven lines and getting ready to rearcharge whatever managed to hold the initial wave.

What with? A quarter of the Bret Army has been comited to one attack, more if those units have Characters with them. If the Bretonnian player brings peasants he's got even less troops to commit. The Dwarf player also has a vast amount of options to stop this. A battle standard, stubborn units (Hammerers) and artillery to name a few. A few well placed runes can mince knights (i.e: Rune that ignores armour). And if the Knights do break through then they will have to spend at least one turn re-positioning, which is more time to be shot.

Fighting Dwarves with Bretonnians is a nightmare. Of course giving examples like this would be credible for most other armies.


I think he meant 2 lances charging the SM, which is well within the realm of possibility.

Sorry. I read the post wrong. My mistake.


You will not rarely see two 9 Knight strong Lances hitting a single unit rarely, and that would utterly mince as unit of Sword Masters, as I said.

Of course they would. They are two units of vastly greater points value than the target. It's hardly a fair comparison.

Remember that when a Bret Player double charges he will most likely throw a large porton of his army into the fight (sometimes over 700 points worth) that can be caught static and trapped. The problem is it takes experience to recognise this.

Oh dear, I think this thread is begining to wander off course. The point is that using Bretonnians, even with quite a few knights is not as simple as some might think, and the problem is mostly that oponnents don't quite know what to do. That said peasants aren't usless and they do many things better than knights, just fewer of them and it is very difficult to make the most of them.

The Bucket
10-06-2008, 02:57
Okay well reading this i just want to list what i have and can someone tell me what to get next that should help me abit.

1 paladin
1 bsb
9 errant knight
7 KotR(i know i need more of these)
6 grail knights
1 pegi knight

I was thinking gettting bowmen more pegi knights and maybe a bret lord on royal pegi? i dont know i play against alot of tough armies exspicialy since the new demon and vamp codex came out.

Bretonnian Lord
10-06-2008, 03:09
More Knights of the Realm, they are the staple of Bretonnian armies
2 more Pegasus Knights to make it a unit of 3
Another Paladin? At least a Damsel or two for magic defense.
Couple blocks of Men at arms and Bowmen (help greatly with attrition)
Trebuchet

All of that would make a good 1500-2000 pt army, depending on how you equipped your heroes and if you upgraded one to a lord.

Talonz
10-06-2008, 06:45
Actually ime brettonnian lord is pretty much 100% correct. I find that those with limited tactics themselves fall easily to a point and click brett army, but those kinds of brett armies are very prone to disaster against a number of specefic army troop types and the simplest of tactics like bait/flee followed by countercharges.

Im amazed at how often bretts suffer from army envy, as they are remarkably predictable and very much a paper tiger but for the charging round if they get the charge. Any other result is nearly disaster for them.