PDA

View Full Version : whats a crone world eldar



ChaosBeast
06-06-2008, 21:30
from what i can gather is that they are eldar who got trapped on their plsnets after the fall. does that mean they are dark eldar, just without the piratical element or are they chaos eldar?

Gorbad Ironclaw
06-06-2008, 21:49
Dark Eldars have nothing to do with Chaos. They might look like it, but they are as much opposed to Chaos as any other Eldars.

Crone World Eldars are soulles automates enslaved to Slaanesh and are what remains of the unfortunate Eldars still on the Eldar homeworlds when Slaanesh was born and the Eye of Terror was created(although most was likely just destroyed outright).

Bregalad
06-06-2008, 22:51
Crone Worlds are described on page 54 of the Eldar Codex. They are the remnants of Eldar planets now located in the Eye of Terror. They were wiped clean of their population during the fall, but the Codex leaves it open whether some of them now have Eldar settlements on them. Still fielding some rare artefacts (and IIRC the material for soulstones), they are sometimes visited by Eldar expeditions to grab them, but these expeditions seldom return and then only broken.

Also have a look for all those Chaos Eldar threads, where the existence of Chaos Eldar is discussed. I belong to the majority of people who believe that there can't be any group of Chaos Eldar in the 40k universe.

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-06-2008, 03:27
Well as I see it Chaos Eldars would be those Eldars who willingly sold there soul to Chaos (unlike the unfortunant ones left behind on the core worlds at the moment of the Fall). And given what else we know about Eldars that would seem to be extremly unlikely. So while I'm sure there are a handful that's about it I imagine.

ChaosBeast
07-06-2008, 11:30
ok, so theyre not chaos eldar, so what are thy just dark eldar?

Idaan
07-06-2008, 11:37
I belong to the majority of people who believe that there can't be any group of Chaos Eldar in the 40k universe.
Said 'majority' excluding of course the writers of Eldar background:


Among the mortal inhabitants can still be found Eldar, some preserved since the time of the Fall, who champion the cause of Chaos on the Daemon Worlds and throughout the galaxy.

There was another quote about the rare Eldar being the most powerful Champions of Chaos, but I don't remember the source. But the Chaos Eldar definately exist, either as Croneworlders, ie original Eldar preserved since the Fall who somehow retained free will and gave themselves to Chaos or as the ones who succumbed some time after the Fall. The latter would be extremely rare as the Path offers a good protection against Chaos and most Eldar wouldn't make the mistake that laid low their forebears for the second time.

Bregalad
07-06-2008, 18:34
Did you mention that said White Dwarf is from 1990, that is 18 years old or three years before second edition? And that another article in there is headlined "How to design a Squat War Host"? No? Of course not! Would have undermined the credibility of that source!:rolleyes:

MrBigMr
07-06-2008, 19:29
Oh please, lets not get into "picking bits from sources just enough to suit one's own needs" here, shall we?

The truth is that Chaos Eldar have mentioned and as far as I know, there is not source outside of the inworld POV that states there are not Eldar living on Crone Worlds or that they're not worshiping Chaos or Slaanesh. It's like trying to prove half-Eldar don't exist. They've been mentioned in the background and so far even Xenology hasn't proven to a fact that natural human-Eldar hybrids are not possible. Pointing at mere genetics doesn't prove a thing in a world where aliens can assimilate other aliens' DNA and men have grown hormones and tissue type that women haven't.

In the end: It's A Big Universe(tm)(r)(c).
*goes back to work on his Chaos Tau army*

Idaan
07-06-2008, 19:34
It's not before the second edition as far as I know, because that article established Eldar background as we know it, and IIRC it was during the 2nd edition. Either way, there's no reason not to believe said article or discard it as non-canon. The other articles in the issue 127 don't undermine its credibility, seeing as there are almost word for word citations of it in every subsequent Eldar Codex. The only bits of modern fluff that weren't in that issue are units from 3e Craftworld Codex, the existence of Path of Command, Bards of Twighlight and Hoec the Wanderer. I see no reason to treat this article as outdated, but rather as the original and full version of Eldar background that was later cut down in volume but not changed.

And the age of this article does nothing to disprove it. The notes made by Mark Gascoigne on the nature of canon suggest that all GW-published material is true and canon regardless of the date and source. It is up to you to decide which to use.

You said that there is no possibility for Chaos Eldar to exist in canon Warhammer 40000 universe. This is false, because there are canon sources that prove otherwise. That is not to say that you or the opening poster have to use them, nor it is to say that I like them or use them when writing my fluff. It just says that there is a possibility for Chaos Eldar to exist canonically, and everyone can choose to use them or not.

Voidhawk
07-06-2008, 21:00
Let's not forget Ahra, the Father of the Scorpions, the Fallen Phoenix, who "burns with the dark light of Chaos"....

As far as I know, he's still part of official fluff? I could be wrong of course.. :p

Bregalad
07-06-2008, 21:05
It's not before the second edition as far as I know, because that article established Eldar background as we know it, and IIRC it was during the 2nd edition. Either way, there's no reason not to believe said article or discard it as non-canon. The other articles in the issue 127 don't undermine its credibility, seeing as there are almost word for word citations of it in every subsequent Eldar Codex. The only bits of modern fluff that weren't in that issue are units from 3e Craftworld Codex, the existence of Path of Command, Bards of Twighlight and Hoec the Wanderer. I see no reason to treat this article as outdated, but rather as the original and full version of Eldar background that was later cut down in volume but not changed.

And the age of this article does nothing to disprove it. The notes made by Mark Gascoigne on the nature of canon suggest that all GW-published material is true and canon regardless of the date and source. It is up to you to decide which to use.

You said that there is no possibility for Chaos Eldar to exist in canon Warhammer 40000 universe. This is false, because there are canon sources that prove otherwise. That is not to say that you or the opening poster have to use them, nor it is to say that I like them or use them when writing my fluff. It just says that there is a possibility for Chaos Eldar to exist canonically, and everyone can choose to use them or not.
WD 129 July 1990: http://gamehobby.net/white_dwarf_magazine/white_dwarf_127.html
Warhammer 40k 2nd edition late 1993:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40k

And as nothing has changed backgroundwise since Rogue Trader days, have fun with your Squat army, your Tyranid army consisting of Zoats and Genestealer Cult, your las gun carrying Eldar Guardians, your native American themed Dark Angels and the jet bike riding Imperial Guard.:rolleyes:

Everyone else turn to the current Eldar Codex for this discussion.

MrBigMr
07-06-2008, 21:20
And as nothing has changed backgroundwise since Rogue Trader days, have fun with your Squat army, your Tyranid army consisting of Zoats and Genestealer Cult, your las gun carrying Eldar Guardians, your native American themed Dark Angels and the jet bike riding Imperial Guard.:rolleyes:
All those are to do with rules, not fluff. Might as well say there are no other Chaos troops than CSM, since LatD isn't a legal list anymore.

Squats were destroyed, but not erased. Zoats are mentioned in the new Tyranid codex and Genestealer Cults are as part of the background as any. Eldar have lasblaster and other laser weapons. Jetbike Guard isn't really that far fetched in high-tech world that have access to such tech, even if there's no rules for them. There's no rules for CSM having Deathwing drop pods, sniper bolter or solid ammo obliterators (they only have flamers and energy weapons), but they can be found in the background stories.

khirsath
07-06-2008, 22:00
There is a quote in the original Eldar Codex about how none are more truly damned than the eldar who worship Chaos, or something to that effect. I can't check as my copy is hundreds of kilometers away at the moment. But I believe this is the quote that Idaan was thinking of. It certainly is in the era of 2nd edition of 40k as it's in the codex from that period. Also, one of the major sources for the foundation of all the background of craftworlds and their inhabitants.

Bregalad
08-06-2008, 00:33
All those are to do with rules, not fluff. Might as well say there are no other Chaos troops than CSM, since LatD isn't a legal list anymore.

Squats were destroyed, but not erased. Zoats are mentioned in the new Tyranid codex and Genestealer Cults are as part of the background as any. Eldar have lasblaster and other laser weapons. Jetbike Guard isn't really that far fetched in high-tech world that have access to such tech, even if there's no rules for them. There's no rules for CSM having Deathwing drop pods, sniper bolter or solid ammo obliterators (they only have flamers and energy weapons), but they can be found in the background stories.
Read again:
1.) Tyranids consisted ONLY of Genestealer cults and Zoats at that point. None are available for current armies, and none of current Tyranids except Genestealers existed then. A total change of that race.
2.) Dark Angel background changed. This IS background related.
3.) Current 40k Imperium is not the high tech world that you think it is. Jetbike technology has been lost to the Imperium and only one jetbike survived (Dark Angels). Current 40k fluff has less technology than in Rogue Trader days.
4.) "They were all eaten" is erasing the Squats from the background in a rude manner, not a subtle way.

I am not familiar with Orks, but wasn't the whole race redefined a being some plant life form?

The current Eldar Codex quite clearly says that during the fall, no Eldar survived within the blast. So noone was trapped on Crone Worlds, they just died. It also says that Chaos brutally hunts down each Eldar soul it can get. So there is no stable population there, only possibly some artefact hunters.

Hellebore
08-06-2008, 01:01
Love the hypocrisy there Bregalad.

"All that stuff is decades old, I'm RIGHT!" and yet you ADAMANTLY refuse to accept the 'dark tau' of the 4th ed codex, citing that by its very NEWNESS it deviates too much from the 'original' intent of the writers. :rolleyes:

Your track record on your own evidence 'choices' is not particularly good.

EDIT: Aparantly Arha burns with the dark light of chaos even in the NEWEST adition of the eldar codex and according to the new timeline in the 5th ed rulebook he and karandras fought for 17 days. But I'm sure you'll tell us that this 'evidence' of chaos eldar, due to it not being written in pigs blood on a unicorn is OBVIOUSLY not true and should be discounted. I'm interested to know what criteria you use to decide on your 'evidence' considering how often you gleefully commit hypocrisy.

Hellebore

DantesInferno
08-06-2008, 02:37
[Examples of outdated RT background]

The existence of Chaos-worshipping Eldar in the Eye isn't just a concept from 1st ed, they're also mentioned in the 2nd edition Eldar Codex. And as others have pointed out, in the 4th ed codex too, with the reference to Arhra.


The current Eldar Codex quite clearly says that during the fall, no Eldar survived within the blast. So noone was trapped on Crone Worlds, they just died.

Well, Asdrubael Vect would have us believe that he and the original Dark Eldar were at least some of the survivors from the original Eldar Empire.

You have to consider whether the source should be treated as completely objective, too. A couple of pages after the part you're referencing, the Craftworld Eldar Codex reports that "It is a great mystery how the Dark Eldar escaped the Fall even as it eradicated their civilisation". It might be a great mystery to the Craftworlders, but presumably the Dark Eldar themselves have some idea of how they escaped...


It also says that Chaos brutally hunts down each Eldar soul it can get.

I'd imagine that souls voluntarily pledged would be especially valued!

Kage2020
08-06-2008, 03:47
Ah, now I see the reason that I stopped posting to these forums. <sigh>

Back to the self-imposed exile...

/Kage

Hellebore
08-06-2008, 03:54
Ah, now I see the reason that I stopped posting to these forums. <sigh>

Back to the self-imposed exile...

/Kage

You came out of your 'self-imposed exile' just to decree from on high just how much you suffer nobly?:eyebrows:

How wonderfully egocentric.

Hellebore

MrBigMr
08-06-2008, 07:47
1.) Tyranids consisted ONLY of Genestealer cults and Zoats at that point. None are available for current armies, and none of current Tyranids except Genestealers existed then. A total change of that race.
If I remember correctly, Genestealers originally were not part of the Tyranids, but were later attached to them as a forward scouts. And just because something doesn't have rules in the game doesn't mean they don't exist. Zoats and cultists are in the background and are perfectly official fluff.


3.) Current 40k Imperium is not the high tech world that you think it is. Jetbike technology has been lost to the Imperium and only one jetbike survived (Dark Angels). Current 40k fluff has less technology than in Rogue Trader days.
You telling me that with all the anti-grav tech hovering (no pun intended) around, no one in their right mind has come up with the possibility of slapping it on something and make it fly. You got grav-chutes, jump packs, land speeders, scouts will get land speeder transports in the next codex and the Custodes have hover Rhinos.


4.) "They were all eaten" is erasing the Squats from the background in a rude manner, not a subtle way.
Their homeworld was destroyed, but no where does it say that there aren't some survivors here and there. And just because they're all dead, doesn't mean they have been erased from the fluff. Just because the Old Ones are all dead doesn't mean they're taken from the background. Besides, Squats go missing and then we get a race of heavy industry space dwarfs with no homeworld...


I am not familiar with Orks, but wasn't the whole race redefined a being some plant life form?
I remember there being anti-plant weapons in earlier editions that worked on the Orks, so that transition has been around a long time.


Ah, now I see the reason that I stopped posting to these forums. <sigh>
Kage! Gimme a kiss you ol' poof.


Back to the self-imposed exile...
You're not going anywhere. Now get back here.

Idaan
08-06-2008, 09:43
And as nothing has changed backgroundwise since Rogue Trader days, have fun with your Squat army, your Tyranid army consisting of Zoats and Genestealer Cult, your las gun carrying Eldar Guardians, your native American themed Dark Angels and the jet bike riding Imperial Guard.I said Eldar background. It hasn't changed since that time besides new elements I listed. You could as well argue that the bit in 3e Dark Angels codex about Lion lying in stasis on the Rock is no longer valid because of, for example Necron Codex' War in Heaven retcon which came after it. One bit of background cannot invalidate other bits of background that have nothing to do with it.

And still you haven't made a comment on the point I brought up, that by GW's definition of canon and truth, said quote is still perfectly canon and true.


The current Eldar Codex quite clearly says that during the fall, no Eldar survived within the blast. So noone was trapped on Crone Worlds, they just died.Yup. It can be unfortunate wording or writer's error just as well, because later it says:


To the Eldar these worlds are known as the Crone Worlds. According to tradition the Crone Worlds still preserve some of the Eldar's greatest treasures despite the changes that Chaos has wrought upon them. It is said that there are worlds where the Eldar still live.
And no, it cannot mean Craftworld or Ranger expeditions, because they don't live there. Besides Maugan Ra's expedition to Belial IV and Biel-Tan's occupation of Eidolon are widely known facts, almost like Crusades for the Eldar so it wouldn't be written "it is said".


Your track record on your own evidence 'choices' is not particularly good.IMHO it is perfectly valid, because it is up to you to choose your own version of background. You can't however try to force your choice upon others. Remember, GW background is made of possibilities rather than solid facts.

DapperAnarchist
08-06-2008, 09:57
Arha was supposed to have gone to Chaos as of 2nd ed, but in 3rd ed it was hinted he may have become the Dark Father of the Incubi. Not that he can't be both...

To say that "There are no Chaos Eldar anywhere, ever" is... simpleminded in the worst way. Really. And the Daemon's codex certainly has an Eldar duped (at least) by Chaos...

And you seriously think that Nid armies were only Zoats and Stealers? Seriously, go pick up a Rogue Trader somewhere. That is flat out WRONG. Nid's were 6 limbed intelligent aliens, living in hives, who were adapted to space life. Zoats were slave warriors. The Zoats formed the shock troops, with Nids filling support roles (if one were to field an army, which Rogue Trader wasn't best suited to). Stealers, on the other claw, were native to this galaxy, and ugly as sin. And do not knock my beloved Zoati.

Did the Dark Angels change that much? The Deathwing are still festooned with feathers, as I recall.

Yarick Zan
08-06-2008, 10:08
Holy crap this thread has gotten totally off topic. It is a war to see who can pick apart whose sources the most.

From what others have said, crone worlds are those with Eldar who survived the fall. Maiden worlds on the other hand, are colonies of Eldar from the craftworlds.

MrBigMr
08-06-2008, 10:21
Maiden worlds on the other hand, are colonies of Eldar from the craftworlds.
Aren't Maiden Worlds planets inhabited by the Exodites, and they left the empire long before the Craftworlds? The Exodites don't have much in the way of protecting themselves from serious invasions, so some Craftworlds have taken up the job of covering them from hostiles.

Yarick Zan
08-06-2008, 10:24
Aren't Maiden Worlds planets inhabited by the Exodites, and they left the empire long before the Craftworlds? The Exodites don't have much in the way of protecting themselves from serious invasions, so some Craftworlds have taken up the job of covering them from hostiles.

Yes I believe this is the case. I am not completely versed in Eldar fluff, and even what I do know I am a bit rusty. Thanks.

Bregalad
08-06-2008, 10:45
So the ultimate proof of a Chaos Eldar colony living on Crone Worlds is:
1.) One Phoenix Lord is rumoured to have joined the Dark Eldar.
2.) The current Eldar Codex certainly has written the opposite of what was intended.
3.) No background has ever changed since Rogue Trader edition, except Imperium, Space Marines, Tyranids, Orks, Tau, Necrons, Squats, Dark Eldar, ...
4.) Everything is possible. :wtf:

BTW, the Dark Eldar didn't survive on Crone Worlds but by escaping through the webway, as we now know.

In the German Eldar Codex, the Crone World passage reads "It is even rumoured that there might be crone worlds where Eldar still live." (Does someone have the exact english quote?) So I grant that GW leaves open a door for all those "I stick tentacles and spikes to everything" people, even if the rest of the fluff speaks heavily against it (they made the same with the 4th edition Tau Codex). And as the OP asked about "background as written", he is not interested in "everything is possible" answers.

BTW yes, maiden worlds are something completely different and explained on page 7 of the Codex (all surviving ones outside the Eye of Terror, some inhabited by Exodites, some just terraformed and uninhabited but defended).

Yarick Zan
08-06-2008, 10:49
It might just be me, but I think this topic has run it's course and will only end up with stubborn people arguing over sources and ideals. I think this topic needs to be closed so it doesn't turn into a debate between the Chaos Eldar people and the Anti-Chaos Eldar people, which some people seem determined to turn it into.

MvS
08-06-2008, 11:47
Clearly the background for Croneworld Eldar is mixed at best.

We know these 'Crone Worlds' exist and we know that some Eldar live, or perhaps just exist, on them. That's about it I think.

Croneworld Eldar could be any number of things.

They could be barbarian degenerates, like Eldar cavemen.

They could be insane, which again could be caveman cannibal insanity or it could mean vast, ruined and haunted cities, where you can find vacant eyed and malnourished Eldar mothers crooning lullabies over the litter of warped and disgusting monstrosities they have given birth to as they devour each other.

Or maybe mad-eyed Eldar dressed in the rags of once fine clothes staggering around the ruins of their civilisation, looking under rocks and through crumbling buildings for the souls they lost and attacking people they meet, convinced the newcomers must be hiding their souls.

Or maybe Croneworlds are full of Eldar slaves who are kept in pens for the entertainment of their Slaaneshi daemonic masters.

Or maybe that amongst all the trillions and trillions of Eldar who were around before the Fall, there were some who secretly welcomed the growth of Slaanesh and helped their beautiful new god develop by leading other Eldar astray. I mean, if some Eldar remained 'pure' and fled in Craftworlds, and others just became selfish and cruel but otherwise independent and hating of Chaos, surely there must have been some doomsday pleasure cults who actively welcomed the birth of Slaanesh and worked towards it? Could not these few have had their souls consumed by Slaanesh but also given spark of his power and will, becoming daemons and daemon princes?

Where did the first daemonettes come from I wonder?

It seems a possibility at least.

Maybe there are Croneworlds where there are small pockets of pre-Fall Eldar who did not flee in time but otherwise survived and resisted the birth of Slaanesh. Maybe these pockets are under endless pressure and attack by the daemons and mutated freaks of Slaanesh, existing underground as a desperate and increasingly ragged resistence, a bit like the humans following the War of the Machines in the Terminator series.

Anyway, regarding Ahra, I don't think you have to be an active Chaos worshipper and doomsday nutjob to be touched by the power of Chaos. If the Dark Eldar think it's okay to summon warp beasts then they have some access or connection to the Warp at least. And what about the mutant or quasi-daemonic Mandrakes?

Ahra doesn't seem at all interested in Slaanesh, but then he wouldn't have to be to be touched by the faceless power of the Primordial Annihilator (just to coin an Abnett idea).

Finally, how did the Dark Eldar survive? I imagine there must have been many Eldar who were not so psychic or so far gone in their thoughtless pursuit of gratification that they simply dissolved when Slaanesh became manifest. Maybe they only had parts of their souls sucked away before they leapt through Webway gates. Or maybe many of them sensed Slaanesh was about to burst into being and ran like crazy, strapping whatever psychic barriers they could to themselves and their vessels as they did and using the Webway as a fallout shelter even as Slaanesh screamed into being. I'm sure Slaanesh's development and birth wasn't a complete surprise to absolutely every non Craftworld Eldar after all...

ChaosBeast
08-06-2008, 17:55
thankyou MvS, yours has been oneof the only posts that actually answered my question. but by the way, deamonnettes are just parts of Slannesh

MvS
08-06-2008, 19:24
thankyou MvS, yours has been oneof the only posts that actually answered my question. but by the way, deamonnettes are just parts of Slannesh
I'm pleased you think so.

Re. daemonettes, yes they are parts of Slaanesh, but at his birth Slaanesh was predomnantly made up of Eldar souls, so fragments of him were also various cocktails of Eldar soul fragments - if you catch my drift.

I was recalling the fan idea that Keepers of Secrets might be Slaaneshi-fied Eldar gods and heroes, which although non canonical was still pretty cool. :)

ChaosBeast
08-06-2008, 19:36
ive not heard of that 1 before, its a cool idea i like it.

MrBigMr
08-06-2008, 19:42
I was recalling the fan idea that Keepers of Secrets might be Slaaneshi-fied Eldar gods and heroes, which although non canonical was still pretty cool. :)
Could explain how the KoS in the daemon codex was able to infiltrate the Craftworld without being picked up. With Eldar written all over him/her (don't remember if it took the form of a man or a woman), no one had any problem.

And turning souls into daemons isn't that far fetched, since isn't the new fluff of Furies that they're the souls of people of Chaos undivided, left drifting in the Warp without anyone to claim them. Using Eldar souls turned daemons feels just like the twisted thinking of the Dark Prince.

AdmiralDick
08-06-2008, 21:14
from what i can gather is that they are eldar who got trapped on their plsnets after the fall.

that is basically it.

they are described as being like Daemon-Worlds, as they were trapped within the Eye of Terror when it was formed. and because i cannot find any specific mention of any particular Crone World, and none are marked on any of the maps of the Eye so far produced by GW, i can only assume that they are in fact synonymous with Daemon-Worlds, and the term is just the Eldar venacular.

with that in mind one would assume that the inhabited ones would have the residents that one would expect to find on a Daemon World; and all codexes so far say as much. there are daemons and daemon princes, as well as mortal mutants and all the other gubbins you'd imagine.

there are, of course, mentions of Eldar who might still live on these worlds, within the Eye itself. however, nothing is mentioned of their alliegence or physical state so we can only look at other sources and hope to extrapolate.

firstly there are plenty of mentions as to how quickly any Eldar would sucumb to the predations and warping effect of Chaos if they were ever to enter the Immaterium (we assume that the gravity of these statements means 'with or without spirit stones'). there are also plenty of mentions of actual great and terrible Chaotic Eldar, but not much mention of where they live. the 2nd Ed Codex suggest that some of the Eldar denizens on Crone Worlds are actually the dead reanimated by Slaanesh. this is the only clear description, so it would seem logical to guess that the other Chaos Eldar live on the Crone Worlds too (Solitaires and Arha not withstanding, because i don't think we are supposed to assume that they are a) all that Chaotic or b) living now or have ever lived in the Eye). its also possible that they are trapped there, which is why they do not play a role in the game.

conversely, we know that Maugan Ra and others have entered the Eye for prelong periods, so the predations of Chaos are obviously not instantaneous, just quick by Eldar standards. we also know that a number of Outcasts have ventured into the Eye in pursuit of treasures (often the crystal that is found on Crone Worlds, that is then used to make spirit stones) which means that, regardless of how many failed, some must have successfully entered and exited the Eye, otherwise no craftworld would have spirit stones. and, possibly more importantly, they have also entered with the intention of rescuing friends. it could be that the Outcasts are mistaken or ignorant of the truth of the situation, but they obviously feel that there is something about the Crone World inhabitants that could be saved, so its possible that Eldar may have survived 'relatively' unscathed on the Crone Worlds. this seems more probable when you consider the fact that Ulthwé has skirted the Eye for millenia and they have not all been turned inside out yet, and Altansar returned from having spent the same length of time within the Eye itself and, whilst the other Eldar don't like the smell of them, they don't seem to be 'Chaos Eldar'.

it still seems pretty unlikely to me though, that the Eldar inhabitants of Crone Worlds wouldn't be slaves or champions of Chaos by now. but the background could support either/both possibilities, or something else entirely that our human minds couldn't begin to comprehend.


Dark Eldars have nothing to do with Chaos. They might look like it, but they are as much opposed to Chaos as any other Eldars.

i agree that they are as opposed as any other, even more so than some, but i don't agree that they have nothing to do with Chaos. their lifestyle was basically what created Slaanesh. you don't get much more closely connect to Chaos than creating a god.


It's not before the second edition as far as I know

cool! i'd totally forgotten i had that. thanks. it is indeed the first craftworld army list for RT though.


But I'm sure you'll tell us that this 'evidence' of chaos eldar, due to it not being written in pigs blood on a unicorn is OBVIOUSLY not true and should be discounted.

LOL!

but i think you'll find that it needs to be written in stone's blood.


So the ultimate proof of a Chaos Eldar colony living on Crone Worlds is:
1.) One Phoenix Lord is rumoured to have joined the Dark Eldar.
2.) The current Eldar Codex certainly has written the opposite of what was intended.
3.) No background has ever changed since Rogue Trader edition, except Imperium, Space Marines, Tyranids, Orks, Tau, Necrons, Squats, Dark Eldar, ...
4.) Everything is possible. :wtf:

no. those were all counter arguements to points you'd raised. they were not attempts to explain what Eldar that live on Crone Worlds are like.


BTW, the Dark Eldar didn't survive on Crone Worlds but by escaping through the webway, as we now know.

it there any actual statement that that is the case? or is it just something we have assumed? i mean, its pretty much what i would have guessed, but i don't recall a specific article that says as much.


the Anti-Chaos Eldar people

people?

MrBigMr
08-06-2008, 21:25
Ok, what about the Maelstrom? According to Daemon World, Eldar were there too and their planets were trapped in its formation as well. Is there any information on these places other than the novel (knowing how some people feel about BL stuff)?

Kage2020
08-06-2008, 22:08
You came out of your 'self-imposed exile' just to decree from on high just how much you suffer nobly?

How wonderfully egocentric.
It is, isn't it. And it wasn't alone, was it? :eyebrows: Nope, not at all...

And, yes, I couldn't resist posting again. Darned forums suck you in when you're bored and having nothing better to be doing.

As to the "Greatest Secret," or the idea of the old Gods of the Eldar being forced into the form of Keepers of Secrets without any knowledge of their true identity, no mention was ever made as to the specific form other than that of a Keeper of Secret and all the limitations that it imposes. Extending it to some of the heroes that may have undergone apotheosis - especially for those bent on the 'ole 40k equals over fantasy approach - would be a reasonable, and intriguing, idea.

Kage

MvS
09-06-2008, 13:32
Ah Kage, I've missed your comments on these boards.

I drift away for extended periods myself but something always seems to draw me back eventually. Warseer has some strangely addictive qualities.

Or maybe I'm just lonely. Or an incurable Warhammer geek.

Or are they synonymous...?

Anyway, way off topic. 'scuse me all.

:)

ADF
09-06-2008, 15:39
First, what do you lose if there are A FEW chaos eldar? I believe that it was Gav T. in some Inquisitor article who admitted that there are chaos eldar and eldar daemon princes, but they are to rare and powerful to be featured outside narrative background.

However, Bregalad asked for a quote, here you go (quoted and translated by me from German WD 90):

The Crone Worlds
As the worlds of the eldar were overwhelmed by the cataclysmic birth of the eye of terror, this was not their end. They sunk into the warp and changed so horribly that they became the home of daemons and other terrible creatures of chaos. These world exist even today in a timeless hell, halfways real and halfways trapped in the warp. [description of the world, fire, daemons, blood, standard daemonworld stuff]
The eldar call these world crone worlds. According to their myths, these worlds still contain great tresures of the eldar race, despite the change brought forth by Chaos. Word is that there aere still worlds that harbour ancient Eldar, the offspring of the chaos-worshipping Eldar of the old times, spared or created anew by Slaanesh to further her darkest goals.

This makes it pretty clear that the authors intended to leave the existence of Chaos Eldar ambiguous (Word is...), although it is strongly indicated that there are some.

The Guy
09-06-2008, 20:34
*goes back to work on his Chaos Tau army*

Lol That is badass! Love it :p

Eldar daemon princes? That sounds interesting.

What happens to all the little warp spidery thingies that make up craft worlds? [probably been asked earlier in this thread so apologies but I don't have time to read through yet] Don't they get munchied by the daemons and stuff?

Idaan
09-06-2008, 20:34
4.) Everything is possible.
No, not everything is possible. For example it is impossible for a Tau named Joshua to be the Emperor's true father who showed him how to cook delicious spaghetti bolognese which in turn caused the birth of the first Chaos God, Bob. I'm saying that everything published by the GW and BL is equally valid and it is up to you to choose your version. You can prefer the older version or the newer, they're equal. Here's the part of Mark Gascoigne's post that touches that topic:


But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.


And as the OP asked about "background as written", he is not interested in "everything is possible" answers.There are Chaos Eldar in the background as written. It is up to him whether to interpret Croneworld Eldar as them or not.


Ok, what about the Maelstrom? According to Daemon World, Eldar were there too and their planets were trapped in its formation as well. Is there any information on these places other than the novel (knowing how some people feel about BL stuff)?Wasn't that a Maiden World prior to the incursion though? Not that it matters a lot, it ended as a Daemon World either way.

Just to note that: I'm not a big fan of Chaos Eldar as a race, because sticking pointy bits on everything doesn't make the background much deeper. Maybe it's okay occassionally, but with the impact the internet has on this hobby Chaos versions of everything become almost like Fallen Paladin or Good Drow cliche in D&D. I don't have an army of them or ever intend to. But there is a possibility for them to exist.


What happens to all the little warp spidery thingies that make up craft worlds? [probably been asked earlier in this thread so apologies but I don't have time to read through yet] Don't they get munchied by the daemons and stuff?
It's the other way around actually, the warp spiders are like immunological system of the Craftworld: they gather in large numbers and munch daemons ;)

ChaosBeast
09-06-2008, 20:50
No, not everything is possible. For example it is impossible for a Tau named Joshua to be the Emperor's true father who showed him how to cook delicious spaghetti bolognese which in turn caused the birth of the first Chaos God, Bob.

sigged :D

so given that there's no definite description of what life for a crone world eldar is like, i think i like MvS's idea of crazy, slightly feral eldar.

MrBigMr
09-06-2008, 21:06
No, not everything is possible. For example it is impossible for a Tau named Joshua to be the Emperor's true father who showed him how to cook delicious spaghetti bolognese which in turn caused the birth of the first Chaos God, Bob.
That sounds like a challenge for a writer...
But nothing stops from a person within the world believe in something like that. That's the POV beauty. Inquisitor Jack might have taken one too many Ork 'shroom brew and got that idea into his head, writing down as the absolute thruth.


Wasn't that a Maiden World prior to the incursion though? Not that it matters a lot, it ended as a Daemon World either way.
Not just any Maiden World, the last Maiden World. But to tell the truth, the book itself actuall answers that question as long as the reader wasn't so engulfed in their nerd rage that the blood bleeding from their eyes made it impossible to spot the obvious explanation.

All the narrative tales that dot the book are all "stories circling the Maelstrom". So the planet could have very well been what it was within the Maelstrom and as such for the people of the Maelstrom. When bows and spears are high tech and an orbital space ship a celestial body, I doubt the people have much knowledge of the world outside the Maelstrom.


Just to note that: I'm not a big fan of Chaos Eldar as a race, because sticking pointy bits on everything doesn't make the background much deeper.
To tell the truth, sticking pointy bits on anything doesn't make it any deeper. That's why my Chaos troops use normal SM as their base. No arrows, horns and spiky mutant bits for me. That crap is about as cool as a barbwire tattoo around your bicep.


Maybe it's okay occassionally, but with the impact the internet has on this hobby Chaos versions of everything become almost like Fallen Paladin or Good Drow cliche in D&D. I don't have an army of them or ever intend to. But there is a possibility for them to exist.
To tell the truth, with those criterias all Marines should stay loyalist and all Eldar should be evil as hell. I mean, Marines, the zealous monk knights of the future fall to evil where as the decadent race that doesn't give a damn about the other races are the "good guys".

I don't favor Chaos *insert race* because it's cool, but because I think it's idiotic that humans are the only ones to get corrupted. It's like how all Vampires are always humans and all that crap. In a fantasy world where humans are but one race, we're the ones getting into trouble all the time. If Chaos is so cross species, why in the hell aren't there more worshipers?


Lol That is badass! Love it :p
And it's no "spiky bits Fire Warriors" either. This is a serious army, even if just a CP. I'm working on excessive conversions, really thinking about my options and how and why would they do this and that, and I'm even going to write fluff for them just to underline the whole thing.

I've noticed that writing a good piece to back up your choices is better than just putting models on display and saying "Oh hay I has Chaos Tau". So far I haven't had much (read: none) negative feedback about my Chaos army fluff, even though it also features a Tau and many many other things that would make most think "never gonna happen" or "totally idiotic". It's all about putting things into context.

Bregalad
09-06-2008, 21:23
so given that there's no definite description of what life for a crone world eldar is like, i think i like MvS's idea of crazy, slightly feral eldar.
Well, we don't know IF there are Crone World Eldar, but we know that all Eldar visiting those crone worlds either die or get completely mad/broken. So you have the option of doing dead Eldar, mad/broken Eldar, undead Eldar (2nd edition version) or "Eldar turned Daemon" (2nd edition version). And nothing looks like normal Eldar miniatures.


It's like how all Vampires are always humans and all that crap. In a fantasy world where humans are but one race, we're the ones getting into trouble all the time.
I like the idea of Vampire bunnies :p

The Guy
10-06-2008, 04:44
And it's no "spiky bits Fire Warriors" either. This is a serious army, even if just a CP. I'm working on excessive conversions, really thinking about my options and how and why would they do this and that, and I'm even going to write fluff for them just to underline the whole thing.

I've noticed that writing a good piece to back up your choices is better than just putting models on display and saying "Oh hay I has Chaos Tau". So far I haven't had much (read: none) negative feedback about my Chaos army fluff, even though it also features a Tau and many many other things that would make most think "never gonna happen" or "totally idiotic". It's all about putting things into context.

Sounds interesting. Is it on this forum?

Idaan
10-06-2008, 08:45
Well, we don't know IF there are Crone World Eldar, but we know that all Eldar visiting those crone worlds either die or get completely mad/broken.Not necessarily.
During the 13th Black Crusade there were two expedition into the Eye of Terror. One was Maugan Ra's private crusade to reclaim Altansar. He gathered an army of followers from Ulthwe and a guard of Dark Reapers. He descended on Belial IV which he reclaimed. Finally though he was overwhelmed by forces of Chaos and only saved by forces of Altansar which came to his help. Altansar Eldar weren't normal Eldar painted pink :rolleyes: back then, but somewhat ghostly and immaterial.

What was even more badass was Biel-Tan expedition to Eidolon, former Eldar world now controled by all 4 Chaos Gods with every one having a continent shaped to his wanting. Eldar established a base at the central zone and managed to turn it back from daemonic status into what it was before Fall. As of the end of EoT campaign they're holding it against Chaos onslaught.

It is all from Death by a Thousand Cuts, EoT end report. We don't know anything about sanity of the soldiers serving there, but strategically they're doing pretty good.

Condottiere
10-06-2008, 08:54
That's really interesting.

That implies that if the Eldar returned in enough force, they could reclaim a significant portion of their homeworlds.

However, I'm sure how smart this is in the long term, since the Eye has such a strong connection to the warp, and any surge might overwhelm the defenders eventually.

MrBigMr
10-06-2008, 09:19
I like the idea of Vampire bunnies :p
Sexy petite goth vampire bunnies...
*sigh*
What were we talking about again?


Sounds interesting. Is it on this forum?
The Chaos Tau CP is still in works, as I have other projects under way at the moment, but once things start to clear up, I can get into it. I'm still missing a box-o-fire warriors and kroots, and a few bit here and there but I have pretty much everything else either in my possession or in the mail.

As for the Chaos army that I talked about, their fluff can be found in my sig starting with Slayers of Sorrow up to Tears of Blood. The army is still under construction, since I'm waiting for the new SM codex to see what I can have (the CSM codex simply doesn't work for them).

Iracundus
10-06-2008, 09:26
GW has studiously avoided examining the Eldar success in that area in any further detail. Aside from a brief aside in the "State of the Galaxy" article, and a mention for an Inquisitor scenario, GW has ignored it totally.

It was stated in the EoT wrap up report that the Eldar on Eidolon hoped in time to make the enclaves of sanity grow with further successes. It isn't said they returned it to their pre-Fall state of paradise however. They are just areas where the warp/realspace overlap is weaker than elsewhere on the planet and in the Eye. The areas themselves could still be just blasted barren terrain or ruins, just less warp saturated.

The Eldar success on Belial IV is even less mentioned even though it was the warzone during the EoT that the Eldar had the single most success in. It is not known whether they plan to actually have a reclaimed world and base in the middle of the Eye, or whether it is a temporary foothold while they try to scavenge and recover as much as they can before withdrawing. I would prefer the former but given GW's shying away from anything approaching timeline progress I would suspect GW would do the latter if they said anything at all.

Bregalad
10-06-2008, 10:30
Not necessarily.
During the 13th Black Crusade there were two expedition into the Eye of Terror. One was Maugan Ra's private crusade to reclaim Altansar. He gathered an army of followers from Ulthwe and a guard of Dark Reapers. He descended on Belial IV which he reclaimed. Finally though he was overwhelmed by forces of Chaos and only saved by forces of Altansar which came to his help. Altansar Eldar weren't normal Eldar painted pink :rolleyes: back then, but somewhat ghostly and immaterial.

What was even more badass was Biel-Tan expedition to Eidolon, former Eldar world now controled by all 4 Chaos Gods with every one having a continent shaped to his wanting. Eldar established a base at the central zone and managed to turn it back from daemonic status into what it was before Fall. As of the end of EoT campaign they're holding it against Chaos onslaught.

It is all from Death by a Thousand Cuts, EoT end report. We don't know anything about sanity of the soldiers serving there, but strategically they're doing pretty good.
I guess that is all campaign stuff which is always a bit lax on background (with tomb worlds as popular meeting places for all races etc.). Can you give sources/quotes? All in the EoT campaign book? Or online campaign updates?

Altansar fighting Chaos? That would rule them out as Chaos Eldar, right? Another loophole closed!

Charax
10-06-2008, 10:37
yes, Because the forces of Chaos never fight each other :rolleyes:

CELS
10-06-2008, 11:15
If this thread is filled with more sarcasm and ironic remarks, it's going to spontaneously self-combust, creating a whole new god, Beaumont, the tsar of sarcasm, instantly killing thousands of members on Warseer. :(

If all original inhabitants of the Crone Worlds were killed when Slaanesh was born (which is quite explicitly stated in Codex: Eldar from 2nd edition, even if elsewhere contradicted) it seems the Eldar have later reinhabited them.
"All Eldar within thousands of light years were destroyed in an instant (...) Upon the fringes of the galaxy the shockwave slew millions of Eldar Exodites, leaving only the remotest worlds largely untouched."
"To the Eldar these worlds are known as the Crone Worlds (...) It is is said there are worlds where Eldar still live, the descendants of Chaos worshipping Eldar of ancient times, spared or re-created by Slaanesh to serve his evil purpose."

Both quotes are from Codex: Eldar, 2nd edition. To me, this is proof, in as much as anything in 40k can be proved. It seems prudent to leave behind the discussion of whether Chaos Eldar exist on the Crone Worlds, and rather talk about what they are like and what impact they have on the galaxy beyond the Eye of Terror. But hey, that's just me.

Iracundus
10-06-2008, 11:42
I guess that is all campaign stuff which is always a bit lax on background (with tomb worlds as popular meeting places for all races etc.). Can you give sources/quotes? All in the EoT campaign book? Or online campaign updates?


Online state of the galaxy article at

http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer40000/galaxy-damnation/3/



Recently, the Eldar of the Ulthwé Craftworld have fought at the side of Imperial forces during the epic battles of the Thirteenth Black Crusade. Many Eldar perished at the side of men, determined to stand in the face of the Chaos invasion.

It is believed that Eldar forces gained control over a number of so-called crone worlds – former Eldar capitals deep within the Eye of Terror reduced to blasted realms of insanity and death at the moment of the Fall of the Eldar.

Imperial authorities have no way of ascertaining the true situation at these worlds, and are deeply concerned as to what this may herald for the future. - Excerpt from above link

WD article Death by a Thousand Cuts by Andy Chambers, coordinator of the EoT campaign:


The mysterious sector of Eidolon, deep in the heart of the Eye of Terror, is one of the most remote and peculiar of the daemon worlds fought upon during the Thirteenth Crusade. Divided into several continents where a different Chaos power reigns over each, the battlezones of Eidolon present a panoply of strange and excruciating ways to die. Its shifting landscapes defy all reason and, although it was once a beautiful maiden world of the Eldar, it has changed so irrevocably that no real trace of its former glory exists. Nonetheless, the victories won by the forces of Order, notably the Eldar of Biel-tan, have established several enclaves of sanity in the roiling seas of possibility that characterise Eidolon. The Eldar hope that one day these islands can grow and become stable, and that eventually the secrets of Eidolon can be reclaimed. Initial Control 5% Outcome 25.1%


Aeons ago, the crone world of Belial IV was a capital world of the Eldar empire. Deep in the heart of the Eldar homelands, the verdant paradise was all but obliterated when the cataclysmic Fall of the Eldar stripped away thousands of years of culture and beauty and replaced it with madness, desolation and evil. Belial IV became a dust-strewn wreck of daemon-infested ruins and crackling, baleful skies...
...Towards the end of the Thirteenth Crusade, many of the Eldar in the system departed from warzones in Imperial space and gathered upon Belial IV under Maugan Ra's command. They took the fight to the indigenous Chaos forces with such unremitting fury that vast areas were reclaimed by the Eldar...
To the great shock of the Eldar below, the withered and broken Craftworld of Altansar, thought lost to the Warp for 10,000 years, drifted into orbit above the crone worlds. Hundreds of pallid, ghost-like Eldar joined their brethren on the field of battle, throwing back the Daemon tide with wave after wave of silent grim warriors. Since that great victory Belial IV has been reclaimed by the Eldar. What this, and the reappearance of the Lost, bodes for the Eldar race remains to be seen. Initial Control 35% Outcome 79.4%

Frankly given how successful the Eldar were, it would seem fair to at least give this success more of a spotlight to highlight the fact the Eldar are still a significant galactic power. Unfortunately since it bucks the whole "Eldar are a dying race" stereotype, GW in the latest Eldar Codex only mentions Eldrad's demise during the campaign, barely mentions Altansar's return in passing, and conveniently glides over this crone world reclamation. The front cover artwork though might be interpreted as portraying a scene from this conflict however, as could the double page spread in Apocalypse showing Yme-Loc forces.

MrBigMr
10-06-2008, 12:31
If this thread is filled with more sarcasm and ironic remarks, it's going to spontaneously self-combust, creating a whole new god, Beaumont, the tsar of sarcasm, instantly killing thousands of members on Warseer. :(
Reminds me of an episode in Monty Python:
Vercotti: "Doug [takes a drink] Well, I was terrified. Everyone was terrified of Doug. I've seen grown men pull their own heads off rather than see Doug. Even Dinsdale was frightened of Doug."
Interviewer: "What did he do?"
Vercotti: "He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor, bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious."


It seems prudent to leave behind the discussion of whether Chaos Eldar exist on the Crone Worlds, and rather talk about what they are like and what impact they have on the galaxy beyond the Eye of Terror. But hey, that's just me.
Well, I have my own view about one Crone World, but I don't want to spoil anything as it's to in a story I'm working on. But I can give my theories.

For one, I doubt there are much grunt Chaos Eldar around. No slaves, troopers or anything. In order to retain any sanity and personality within the Eye, they surely all were very strong willed and spirited. As such they're most likely all equal to strong human sorcerers and lords. And no lord nor sorcerer would submit him/herself to manual labour or anything no matter how high up the chain of command went behind them.

So for gruntwork they might have the finest imported slaves. Who knows, maybe even the DE supply them in exchange for those precious artifacts that are buried within the planet. And surely those slaves would be used to excavate those artefacts. That's what they did on the planet in Daemon World. Alternatively they could have some sort of daemonic engines or daemons working for them. Imagine a wraithguard with a daemon inside it instead of an Eldar soul.

They could have renegades of other races in their ranks as well, eager to serve a great and powerful leader of a certain god or all of them as a whole. I don't see how there couldn't be Chaos Marines among other things among the ranks of the Eldar, most likely cast out from their own chapter/legion or seeking actively for a great master to follow (Tzeentch sorcerer wanting to perfect his skills, etc.). Surely the Eldar keep such a company, but wouldn't think much of them. They're just flesh to thrown against the enemy fire if someone was foolish enough to attack the plent.

If war did break out, the daemons, slaves and assorted allies would be the first ones to be thrown at the enemy. With the superior Eldar tech in their possession, the Eldar themselves are fairly powerful and most likely utilize these weapons either in strategic locations or as a last resort. Most loyal troops under them are likely to receive better gear to be used in combat.

It is highly likely the Eldar won't venture far from their planets. They have everything they need brought to them. Ones that have gained daemonhood are most likely unable to travel outside of the Eye, as they would be far too dependent on the energies of the Warp. But some lover rank ones, most likely on an errant for their master, could travel outside of the Eye with a small retinue to go out and seek for something or stuff like that.


Come to think of it, if I had to place the Chaos Eldar in some fantasy race box, I'd make 'em vampire counts. Few and powerful, leading an army of followers from the comfort of their bastions.


Well, that's all I can say off the top of my head on the subject.

Bregalad
10-06-2008, 15:23
Thanks, Icacundus, for the quotes. Normal, I am very sceptical about campaign fluff, but Andy Hoare does know his stuff.

So to sum up the new information on crone worlds from 4th edition and EoT campaign:

1.) All crone worlds were depopulated during the fall and are now Daemon worlds..
2.) Generally all Eldar staying too long in the EoT are either dead or broken.
3.) Some Crone Worlds have partially been reconquered by Eldar during the 13th crusade.

And on Chaos Eldar:
4.) Craftworld Altansar was sucked into the EoT after the Fall, survived there for 10.000 years. They look withered, broken, pallid and ghost-like, but fight on the side of their brethren (and save them) against Chaos Forces.

So for me, the loopholes crone worlds, Ulthwé and Altansar are closed concerning the possibility of Chaos Eldar in 4th edition background.

The Guy
10-06-2008, 16:06
Well eldar and dark eldar* hate eachother but will fight side by side over pretty much any enemy.
And I'm pretty sure that turning to chaos doesn't result in complete insanity. So perhaps these ghost like eldar were trying to protect their brethren to stop them sharing the same fate?
You've made a valid point Breg but this obsession against chaos anythingbutmen really needs to settle a little ;)


* Please note that I was not saying dark eldar are chaos eldar, I was simply using it as a comparison.

Anyways
IIRC craftworld have big old engines and stuff that mean they can move around? So does that mean it's possible to "fly" crone worlds out of the eye? It's very unlikely considering how unpredictable and dangerous it is but some eldar would probably try it.

Bregalad
10-06-2008, 17:59
You've made a valid point Breg but this obsession against chaos anythingbutmen really needs to settle a little ;)
Hey, tell GW first to change the background of 40k, I am only the messenger.
And BTW, how about the obsession of some people to stick tentacles and spikes to everything in the bitzbox ;)


Anyways
IIRC craftworld have big old engines and stuff that mean they can move around? So does that mean it's possible to "fly" crone worlds out of the eye? It's very unlikely considering how unpredictable and dangerous it is but some eldar would probably try it.
Craftworlds move, yes. But currents are very strong at the entry of the EoT. Ask Altansar how easy it is to get sucked in and difficult to just drive out :p

AdmiralDick
10-06-2008, 18:40
so given that there's no definite description of what life for a crone world eldar is like

there are definite descriptions of what life is like on a Crone World; its like life on a Daemon World. what normally happens to the inhabitants of Daemon Worlds?


That's really interesting.

That implies that if the Eldar returned in enough force, they could reclaim a significant portion of their homeworlds.

with enough influence they absolutley could. the Warp is a constantly decaying reflection of the 'emotional' landscape of the real world. try and imagine it in terms of a forest. if it is left unchecked, untended and dangerous animals are let loose in it, then it becomes a frightening and potentially leathal place. however, if it is well managed, coppiced and there is a game-keeper, the place becomes a naturally replenishing resource.

the Slann, who taught the Eldar about the Warp, had no issue with it. it was not the wolf at their door and never has been. the Eldar consistantly fed it all of their garbage and abused the psychic resource that was their life-blood. in essence they polluted their own well. if their were enough Eldar feeding the Warp with the right 'emotional' sustainence, replacing what they took out of it, then the Warp would be a calm and practically habitable place. sadly, there is now nothing like enough of them to have a sufficient influence over the Warp to make up for their mistakes.

maybe if they and the human race joined with the remaining Slaan and learnt their lessons well, they would be able to tame the Warp once more. but with all the orks and tyranids continuing to pollute it still, there seems little chance that even an endevor of that scale would work.


It isn't said they returned it to their pre-Fall state of paradise however.

it would seem unlikely that the Craftworld Eldar would ever endorse the wayward lifetyle of their youth. they may have nostagic recollections of a past that never was, but i doubt that they are so naive as to think life was genuinely better for them before the paths. it was out of control and ended inevitably in their near total destruction.

the DE might be interested in that though.


Can you give sources/quotes? All in the EoT campaign book? Or online campaign updates?

that was my first response to.

for anyone interested, the Death by a Thousand Cuts is in issue 287 of the English edition of WD.


It seems prudent to leave behind the discussion of whether Chaos Eldar exist on the Crone Worlds, and rather talk about what they are like and what impact they have on the galaxy beyond the Eye of Terror. But hey, that's just me.

i think that you are absolutely right.

however, i might just point out that the sources suggest that there are a few Eldar who live within the Eye on the Crone Worlds and of those there are a percentage that are identifiably 'Chaos Eldar' (namely the revenant servants of Slaanesh). of the others it says nothing. it does not say they are Chaotic, but equally it does not say they not Chaotic either. it is fun to speculate on what these others might be, but it is probably not worth getting to deeply involved in an argument over them.


In order to retain any sanity and personality within the Eye, they surely all were very strong willed and spirited. As such they're most likely all equal to strong human sorcerers and lords.

i suspect that that is quite likely, and had always been my personal image of Chaos Eldar. if there were such a thing as a Chaos Eldar then they almost certainly would have been offered daemonhood by now (simply because of the time that has elapsed and the comparative worth of Eldar to Chaos in comparison to Humans and SM), and they would undoubedly be counted amoungst the most powerful Daemon Princes there are. SM Daemon Princes are a blunt and clueless instrument in comparison to Eldar ones.

however, their appears to be another strand of description for Chaos Eldar that indicates seemingly quite the opposite. they are slaves, entirely mastered by Chaos, like puppets. their very existence is purely at the whim of the Chaos gods, in a precarious balance that seemingly no other is subject to. perhaps not even the most cursed and dispised mutants on a Daemon World.

maybe these to describe two different types of Chaos Eldar, the Lords and the peons, or maybe they describe the same thing. the most powerful beings in the galaxy but without the strength to move their own hands.


So for me, the loopholes crone worlds, Ulthwé and Altansar are closed concerning the possibility of Chaos Eldar in 4th edition background.

i think the 'loopholes' were closed for you a long time ago Breg.

kikkoman
10-06-2008, 18:52
Thanks, Icacundus, for the quotes. Normal, I am very sceptical about campaign fluff, but Andy Hoare does know his stuff.

So to sum up the new information on crone worlds from 4th edition and EoT campaign:

1.) All crone worlds were depopulated during the fall and are now Daemon worlds..
2.) Generally all Eldar staying too long in the EoT are either dead or broken.
3.) Some Crone Worlds have partially been reconquered by Eldar during the 13th crusade.

And on Chaos Eldar:
4.) Craftworld Altansar was sucked into the EoT after the Fall, survived there for 10.000 years. They look withered, broken, pallid and ghost-like, but fight on the side of their brethren (and save them) against Chaos Forces.

So for me, the loopholes crone worlds, Ulthwé and Altansar are closed concerning the possibility of Chaos Eldar in 4th edition background.

This may also interest you, on Dark Eldar and Chaos...

you see, it was Order vs Disorder. This meant Imperium/Eldar vs Chaos/Dark Eldar/Orks. The official line for DE was "hurray, let's tag along with Ahirman and torture our craftworld cousins!"

What actually happened was... "y'know, letting Chaos take the webway would be retarded, let's kill them instead. The Imperium is busy fighting Chaos too, so lets rape and pillage merrily!"

So most DE fights were poured into attacking Imperial worlds, or in the webway fighting Chaos instead of CWE.

MrBigMr
10-06-2008, 19:16
Hey, tell GW first to change the background of 40k, I am only the messenger.
I can remember a special someone sticking like hell to the old Tau fluff as oppose to the new 'dark' one with the pheromones and control helmets and all that. Just passing through with a message.


And BTW, how about the obsession of some people to stick tentacles and spikes to everything in the bitzbox
So now it's wrong to stick to the GW background? Tentacles and spiky bits are fluffly. Haven't you seen the GW minies, conversions and artwork? Chaos Marines = Marines with spiky bits and tentacles; Traitor Guard = Guard with spiky bits and tentacles; Corrupted Orks (http://www.labyrinth-productions.com/Pics/nurork.jpg) = Orks with spiky bits and tentacles.

So what you're succesting with the "no tentacles and spiky bits" is actually against the established background. What do you know, the messages just keep piling in.

Bregalad
10-06-2008, 21:19
I am also sworn to common sense, logic and consistency. If some bean counter says to the author, "Just add these two sentences that Tau also like a good massacre once in a while, just do it!" then I can't forget the other 99.9% of the fluff and stick to it.
BTW, logic should tell you that it is not fluffy to have tentacles and spikes on everything, from toaster to St-Celestine.
What again was the topic:angel:

But thanks to Icacundus and kikkoman, I now see more clearly what GW intended with those strange remarks on crone worlds and Chaos.

PondaNagura
10-06-2008, 22:02
wait, how does logic fit in with fanciful universes again?

unless the tentacles and spikes support some genetic/evolutionary purpose...let's ask the nids?

MrBigMr
10-06-2008, 22:10
I am also sworn to common sense, logic and consistency.
*does his best to sound like Jamie Hyneman*
Well there's your problem.


If some bean counter says to the author, "Just add these two sentences that Tau also like a good massacre once in a while, just do it!" then I can't forget the other 99.9% of the fluff and stick to it.
But my good man it's fluff! It's canon! You can't do that. You can't ignore bits that you don't agree with. That's... That's like... Heresy!


BTW, logic should tell you that it is not fluffy to have tentacles and spikes on everything, from toaster to St-Celestine.
Logic tells me not to listen to it. It's the only logical thing to do. Logic is like religion, dictating what can and cannot be done without any explanation on why it is so.

Besides, spiky bits and tentacles are as GW as blue Ultramarines. What's the difference between a Chaos Rhino and a loyalist one? What is the difference between a loyalist terminator and a Chaos one? How were those LatD conversions shown in the EoT codex? So on what logic makes it impossible to turn a Sister model into a Chaos one by adding Chaos iconography and spikes?

But who said I follow what GW does? To me spiky bits and the general "evil" look is about as cool and original as an H2 hummer with spinners and 50 000 dollars worth of accessories.

EvilMinion
10-06-2008, 23:41
the crone world Eldar are the Eldar within the eye of terror, which none escaped due to the Chaos God Slannessh. The dark eldar and the eldar both esacped the eye of terror but the Dark Eldar continued the pleasure cults which birthed Slannessh while the Craftworld Eldar came back to their senses and wage war against chaos until the Daltha Randa - the final war against chaos. The Dark Eldar devour souls to prolong their lives besides giving them up to Slannessh - which when they die proves disasterous to them unless they are consumed of course.