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Lost_In_Lustria
06-06-2008, 22:05
Ok, Daemons of Chaos have introduced a new one i.e. Two special characters which are used as unit champions.

So are Karanak and The Changeling upgrades to existing models in the units OR separate models in their own right?

i.e. Do you have to buy a unit of 20 Horrors (Xpts) and then UPGRADE one of them to The Changeling (Ypts) so that the total cost of the unit is X+Ypts.

OR

Do you buy a unit of 19 Horrors and then buy The Changeling as the 20th model for his individual points cost?

The book makes it more confusing by stating that The Changeling is included instead of an Iridescent Horror, suggesting that you have upgrade a normal Horror to a Iridescent Horror, before you can get The Changeling.

decker_cky
07-06-2008, 00:02
You buy them separately, so at minimum, you could buy 4 flesh hounds and karanak (giving you your 5+ unit size) or 9 horrors and the changeling (giving you your 10+ unit size). Buying the changeling instead means you can't buy both the changeling and the iridescent horror for that unit (you get your champ in the changeling).

Lost_In_Lustria
07-06-2008, 08:10
Cheers, that all makes sense.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
07-06-2008, 12:57
Lo' Decker !

Actually, page -67 of the Daemons of Chaos army book has that full-page spread of their Sample Army. There they show "Unit No. 10" - which is described as:

"Flesh Hounds of Khorne - 250 Points - This is a unit of Flesh Hounds, led by Karanak, Hound of Vengeance"

-----------

I mention this as it's a direct example of how you have to field Karanak in a list. Since Flesh Hounds must be a MINIMUM of 5 Hounds to a unit...I think they are showing us that you purchase Karanak "on top of" the normal price you pay for "at least" the minimum-sized unit of 5 Hounds. This is also proven by the cost they list for the unit, which is exactly what 5 Hounds, + Karanak's listed points-cost, comes to.



Using that as precedent/guidance, I suspect the same is true with the Changeling. You buy him INSTEAD of buying an Iridescent Horror (IE the Changeling becomes the Unit Champion of whichever Horror formation he is in.

Thus if you wanted 12 Horrors + The Changeling, you would pay for the cost of the 12 Horror models, then additionally for the cost of The Changeling, which would then stay in that unit, acting as its Champion model.

decker_cky
07-06-2008, 17:22
Never trust the sample armies as your source for the rules. I read on page 90 under "Flesh Hounds of Khorne" that there's a unit size of 5+. In the same entry, I read that "One Flesh Hound unit in the army may include Karanak as a Unit Champion" for X pts. Do you usually need to take more than the minimum unit size to take a champion in the unit?

Fulgrim's-Chosen
09-06-2008, 16:05
I admit that, USUALLY, you don't....but this is a rather unique situation in the Daemon book (a first ?) where you have "Special Character Unit Champions".

I would think the way the Sample List shows it only makes sense, since (as you noted) Flesh Hounds are 5+ - - - and while it makes sense, on the surface, that Karanak IS a Flesh Hound -it seems they are treating him like an extra "thing"- on top of the mandatory 5-minimum Hound's that must make up a valid Hound unit.

I think that's why they are showing 5 basic Hounds....+ Karanak...as a 6th model that is added to them.


* * * note, you are 100% right on that not being the NORMAL way a Champion would be added - but since Karanak is such an odd/novel character/champion/thingy anyways, I am not inclined to think it's that crazy that they'd have an unusual mechanic for having him in your list. Plus, many people run 6-wide Hounds anyways, so it's not like having him at the end/middle of a Hound unit-line is going to be that problematic or out of the norm for typical Daemon players.

Now...is he "worth it", that's another question ! ;) * * *

Loopstah
09-06-2008, 16:29
Another thing to consider about Karanak is that Flesh Hounds don't have the option of a Unit Champion.

Usually a Unit Champion is an upgrade to a normal trooper and so they count towards the minimum unit size requirements.

So where the Changeling is taken instead of an Iridescent Horror (the normal Unit Champion), Karanak must be purchased as an additional figure as he doesn't replace the normal Unit Champion.

Unlike a normal champion it doesn't say "one Flesh Hound may be upgraded to be Karanak", but that he may be included as a Unit Champion. I.e. if you include him in the unit he follows all the rules for Unit Champions. As he isn't an upgrade to one of the normal hounds then he wouldn't count towards the 5+ minimum.

Nurgling Chieftain
09-06-2008, 16:43
I think you guys are overthinking this (especially if you think a sample army list contains secret messages). He's just a particularly powerful unit champion, he's a member of the unit and cannot leave it, and as such counts towards the 5+ unit size. (I agree that his points cost is not an upgrade, but a total, on the grounds that that's how its described.)

donaldtroll
10-06-2008, 04:17
I think you guys are overthinking this (especially if you think a sample army list contains secret messages). He's just a particularly powerful unit champion, he's a member of the unit and cannot leave it, and as such counts towards the 5+ unit size. (I agree that his points cost is not an upgrade, but a total, on the grounds that that's how its described.)

yup thats what i would say too

Fulgrim's-Chosen
11-06-2008, 00:30
I think you are wrong, if that's your view, however.

You are saying you would only be buying 4 Flesh Hounds at their normal price, then be able to buy Karanak, as a "fifth Hound" to make the unit a legal size (5+).

I think that is wrong. I think the Sample Army list shown very clearly in the new Daemon book shows the minimum size of a unit that includes Karanak, and it's not confusing or hard to see why they did it that way.

You HAVE to have 5 "REGULAR Flesh Hounds" to have a minimum-legal size unit of them. Okay...so pay for 5 of them. Now...do you want to have Karanak too ? Okay...pay his listed points cost. You now pick up his model from your cabinet and place him in that unit of Flesh Hounds, making it now 6-models strong (total).


That's the way the book shows it, and the way that makes sense from reading his and the Flesh Hound's rules/unit entry.

Nurgling Chieftain
11-06-2008, 01:15
You are saying you would only be buying 4 Flesh Hounds at their normal price, then be able to buy Karanak, as a "fifth Hound" to make the unit a legal size (5+).Yes, just like any other unit champion.


I think the Sample Army list shown very clearly in the new Daemon book shows the minimum size of a unit that includes Karanak...5+ happens to include 6. Sample Army rosters are not rules, anyway, and are frequently noted for not even following them. It proves nothing. It's not even evidence.


You HAVE to have 5 "REGULAR Flesh Hounds" to have a minimum-legal size unit of them.The word "REGULAR" is not in my copy of the codex, nor frankly any other. You are making an unprecedented claim, that GW is making a new and unique unit makeup that breaks from all previous experience. Standards, musicians, and champions have always counted towards the minimum unit size. There is nothing to indicate that this particular unit champion, unlike any other unit champion, somehow does not.

The only difference is he's paid for in a single value. Is it a unit of flesh hounds? Yes. Is he part of it? Yes. Is it at least 5 models? Yes. That makes it legal.

EDIT:

DoC, page 59, Karanak: "Packleader. Karanak is a unit champion, as described in the Warhammer rulebook."

BRB, page 80, regarding Command Groups: "Remember that even if they have special rules, they are otherwise rank-and-file troopers in all respects."

Ganymede
11-06-2008, 01:59
I think you are wrong, if that's your view, however.

You are saying you would only be buying 4 Flesh Hounds at their normal price, then be able to buy Karanak, as a "fifth Hound" to make the unit a legal size (5+).

I think that is wrong. I think the Sample Army list shown very clearly in the new Daemon book shows the minimum size of a unit that includes Karanak, and it's not confusing or hard to see why they did it that way.

You HAVE to have 5 "REGULAR Flesh Hounds" to have a minimum-legal size unit of them. Okay...so pay for 5 of them. Now...do you want to have Karanak too ? Okay...pay his listed points cost. You now pick up his model from your cabinet and place him in that unit of Flesh Hounds, making it now 6-models strong (total).


That's the way the book shows it, and the way that makes sense from reading his and the Flesh Hound's rules/unit entry.

I'm going to echo the previous sentiments.

The evidence you found in the book does not preclude a unit of four hounds+Kanarak.

WLBjork
11-06-2008, 03:58
Knarak will be with 5 normal Flesh Hounds so that he can benefit from the protection of 5 rank-and-file models (i.e. Look out Sir! and Characters Inside Units)*



*This assumes Kanarak's Special Rules don't preclude these rules.

Nurgling Chieftain
11-06-2008, 04:07
That's a good point. :cool:

Fulgrim's-Chosen
13-06-2008, 01:05
Indeed...a very good point !

I agree with the reasoning offered up by Nurgling Chieftain, for the most part, but WOULD point out that with Karanak and The Changeling GW HAS, in fact, created something totally new and unprecedented - - ie "Champion" // "Characters" - which are a mix of both rules, in some respects.


Maybe you CAN take 4 Hounds + Karanak....I dunno. I suppose okay either way, but I'd probably want to always run 6 anyways - as it gives you the Look Out Sir + the extra attacks/wounds to soak up before you get to combat.


I was more mentioning it as some people had thought his points cost was "buy a Hound at regular price...then pay +75 MORE points to make that Hound, Karanak".

The main reason I cited the Army List example is that it shows the cost for the unit, including him - and from that you can see that they paid for 5 Hounds at normal price....then just paid Karanak's price, separate, to add him to the 5 regular Hounds.

TheWarSmith
13-06-2008, 01:40
I think you CAN take 4 hounds and Karanak. It says he can be taken as a unit champion, which means that one hound is simply "upgraded" into Karanak. it does NOT say "may ADD Karanak". It says "may include, which to me means you can have one of the 5 be Karanak.

Nurgling Chieftain
13-06-2008, 01:59
I agree with the reasoning offered up by Nurgling Chieftain, for the most part, but WOULD point out that with Karanak and The Changeling GW HAS, in fact, created something totally new and unprecedented - - ie "Champion" // "Characters" - which are a mix of both rules, in some respects.Regiments of Renown have named characters that function like unit champions. Of course, their minimum unit sizes are very well defined, but do seem to include the character as part of a 5+ or 10+ structure.


I was more mentioning it as some people had thought his points cost was "buy a Hound at regular price...then pay +75 MORE points to make that Hound, Karanak".The army list is IMO pretty clear that Karanak's points cost is his total cost, rather than an upgrade - which is indeed very unusual for a unit champion.

Kerill
13-06-2008, 02:03
I've been assuming that karanak and changeling were unit champions and therefore upgrades in the normal sense- so Karanak costs 110 points and changeling 72, needs an FAQ methinks. For karanak in particular if he wasn't an upgrade, he would be more viable. Changeling just seems far too easy to kill for his points cost.

DeathlessDraich
13-06-2008, 10:19
I've been assuming that karanak and changeling were unit champions and therefore upgrades in the normal sense- so Karanak costs 110 points and changeling 72, needs an FAQ methinks. For karanak in particular if he wasn't an upgrade, he would be more viable. Changeling just seems far too easy to kill for his points cost.

Karanak is a unit champion - since its rules say so.

The Changeling is not, or at best probably not. Its rules do not explicitly state it is a champion.



Knarak will be with 5 normal Flesh Hounds so that he can benefit from the protection of 5 rank-and-file models (i.e. Look out Sir! and Characters Inside Units)*
*This assumes Kanarak's Special Rules don't preclude these rules.

Look Out sir works slightly differently for champions than characters.

A champion and 4 other RnF models benefits from Look OS whereas a character requires 5 other RnF models.

Karanak is a champion and not a character.


I think you CAN take 4 hounds and Karanak. It says he can be taken as a unit champion, which means that one hound is simply "upgraded" into Karanak. it does NOT say "may ADD Karanak". It says "may include, which to me means you can have one of the 5 be Karanak.

Hello War Smith, welcome back to these forums.

The actual word used in the rules is "include" - whether that *also* means "upgrade" or "add" is unknown.

On the points cost:
Having read the rules twice, I still cannot discern whether it means "add" or "upgrade".
"Add" seems likely judging by the points value.

decker_cky
13-06-2008, 14:57
Karanak is a unit champion - since its rules say so.

The Changeling is not, or at best probably not. Its rules do not explicitly state it is a champion.

Changeling is a champion. Karanak has the special rules because there is no normal champion for his unit. Changeling is there in place of the normal champion. Does the iridescent horror have rules citing it as being a champion?

But the changeling is mostly a champion because otherwise, it's just rank and file. It can't be a character because page 81 of the daemon army book says "Characters are divided into two categories: Lords and Heroes." Changeling is neither of these, and therefore doesn't fit as a character. Are you suggesting the changeling is just a rank and file troop that can be taken in place of the champion then?

The changeling should be played as a unit champion.

DeathlessDraich
13-06-2008, 15:47
Changeling is a champion. Karanak has the special rules because there is no normal champion for his unit. Changeling is there in place of the normal champion. Does the iridescent horror have rules citing it as being a champion?

But the changeling is mostly a champion because otherwise, it's just rank and file. It can't be a character because page 81 of the daemon army book says "Characters are divided into two categories: Lords and Heroes." Changeling is neither of these, and therefore doesn't fit as a character. Are you suggesting the changeling is just a rank and file troop that can be taken in place of the champion then?

The changeling should be played as a unit champion.


The Changeling as a champion is an assumption - a reasonable assumption but that's as far as it goes unfortunately.

One unlikely scenario:
What is the correct swapping sequence when a Changeling and a Greater Daemon is in base contact with an Empire character with Van Horstmann's spec.?

decker_cky
13-06-2008, 16:47
The Changeling as a champion is an assumption - a reasonable assumption but that's as far as it goes unfortunately.

Agreed, but as it is strictly NOT a character, you're choosing between unit champion and rank and file troop, and I think it fits as a champion FAR better (considering it is chosen in place of the normal champion).

creamygoodness
14-06-2008, 23:28
One unlikely scenario:
What is the correct swapping sequence when a Changeling and a Greater Daemon is in base contact with an Empire character with Van Horstmann's spec.?


van horstmans only works in a duel, and you need to be in base to base to use the changling, so that would never arise. because once you are ina duel you are no longer considered to be in base to base with anyone besides the other duelist.