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Reece
06-06-2008, 22:13
Well... I'm pretty sure you can Turbo Boost with your Scout move now. ou just have to stay 12" away from the enemy.

Wile it's not a huge deal since you still have to stay 12" away, it's pretty cool for redeployment purposes.

Did anyone see anything different?

-Reece

kendaop
07-06-2008, 05:47
The PDF states specifically that you cannot turbo-boost on your scout move.

Delmont
07-06-2008, 06:10
There are a lot of differences between the PDF and the actual rule book. I don't remember seeing anything saying you couldn't turbo boost in your scout move. Ravenwing can't because their codex specifically says they can't though....

Reece
07-06-2008, 12:15
Maybe that's something that will be handled per codex then.

-Reece

Natura
07-06-2008, 13:24
Well the Bikes entry, and the Universal Special Rules entries for Turbo-Boost and Scouts say nothing about being unable to combine the two. I think Deff Koptas are the only ones that could potentially benefit from this, is that correct?

Turbo-Boosters:
"When using their Turbo-Boosters they may move up to 24" in the Movement Phase."

Scouts:
"To represent this, after both sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy"

I guess it comes down to what a "normal move" is defined as, and whether "exactly as in their movement phase" allows movement-phase specific rules to come into effect.

Danny Internet
07-06-2008, 14:38
Natura has it right. It specifically says that turbo-boosting occurs in the movement phase while the scout move occurs before the game begins. If this wording is maintained then you cannot turbo-boost with your scout move.

Mike KK
07-06-2008, 15:51
once again we have to read into the wording there, because GW could have put the disclaimer at the end saying you could or couldn't knowing this was already an issue with turboboosting, but again GW failed us in rules again.

edit: i think you can turbo boost because it doesn't say explicitly enough that 'normal move' only inc the 12" move

Gensuke626
07-06-2008, 22:06
In the 5th ed Rulebook (My FLGS has a copy) it specifically says that the scout move is a "Normal Move" Period. No room for arguement there cause I can't think of anyone who can support the arguement that the Turbo Boost is a Normal Move.

Under 4th ed, Turbo-scouting is viable because it's a move that follows "All of the normal movement rules." The normal movement rules for Bike and Jetbikes is
(Jet)Bikes can move up to 12" in the movement phase instead of the normal 6". With the clause
All bikes can use the Turbo Boosters Special Rule

This means that the normal movement rules for a bike is that it may move 12" and turboboost if it wants to.

The counter arguement for "Turbo Boosters must be used in the movement phase." is that if you go by RAW, you can't scout, since every unit type's movement in the rule book from Infantry to Vehicles specifically says that it occurs in the movement Phase.

Therefore, since Turbo Boosters is written with the same verbage as the normal rules for movement, either it is allowed as it is a normal movement rule for bikes, or you may not move as part of scouts.

Besides, only Orks can do it anyway. The marine codexes specifically say that you can't turbo-scout.

thanoson
07-06-2008, 22:29
Doesn't the name "turbo boosters special rule" say that it's not a normal move? :)

Gensuke626
07-06-2008, 22:34
Correct. So in 5th it's not legal. but it is in 4th.

kendaop
08-06-2008, 00:19
It's not in 4th either, do a search, this has been addressed in several threads.

azimaith
08-06-2008, 00:22
Those several threads haven't addressed anything save to show that alot of people don't read the special rules. You get to move following all normal movement rules, turbo boost is something you can do normally. Thus you can turbo boost unless disallowed (in 4th).

You always just have to follow normal movement rules.

You can go look at all those other threads, they're all the same, the same line being ignored to changed in posts over and over and over.

Danny Internet
08-06-2008, 00:31
The crux of the issue comes down to how one defines a "normal" move. Turbo-boosting seems to many (including myself) to be a "special" move, which is why it has its own special rules. I can see it being interpreted either way with a RAW argument because of the vague language used.

Gensuke626
08-06-2008, 00:34
It's not in 4th either, do a search, this has been addressed in several threads.There is no FAQ or Erata that says that I can't Turbo Scout. Locally, it's legal because I was able to successfully defend a RAW arguement in favor of Turbo-scouting as I outlined above. In a month it's a moot point anyway


The crux of the issue comes down to how one defines a "normal" move. Turbo-boosting seems to many (including myself) to be a "special" move, which is why it has its own special rules. I can see it being interpreted either way with a RAW argument because of the vague language used.

See, that's not actually the Crux of the issue.
There is a very subtle but important difference between "Normal Move" and a "Free Move" in which "All normal movement rules apply.

As I said earlier a normal move for a jetbike is 12", ignores difficult terrain.

The normal movement rules for a jetbike is
Jetbikes can move up to 12" in the Movement phase instead of the normal 6" move. Jetbikes may move over enemy and friendly units. They are able to move completely over difficult terrain, so that they do not have to take Dangerous Terrain tests. ect.

All bikes can use the Turbo Boosters Special rule.

Since under the normal movement rules for jetbikes, it specifically says that they are allowed to use the Turbo Boosters special rule, then by RAW they are allowed to turboscout.

The common counterarguements are:
1. Turbo Boosters is a special Rule. Which is true, but we're not debating whether or not it's a special rule, we're debating wheter or not it's use is part of Normal Movement Rules for jetbikes, which it clearly is.

2. Turbo Boosters says
When using their turbo-boosters they may move up to 24" in the movement phase. therefore they can't turboscout because it specifically says that it's done in the movement phase. Which may be true, but let's look at the wording.

It says "They may move up to 24" in the Movement phase." (BGB pg 76.)
We also have "Infantry on foot move up to six inches (6") in the Movement phase" (BGB Pg. 15)
And "All Walkers move exactly the same way as infantry, so they can move up to 6" in the Movement phase..." (BGB Pg. 61)

Therefore, if we use the logic that because it says that the movement happens in the movement phase, you can not Turbo-scout, then we should go ahead and apply the logic that since All movement specifically says that it happens in the movement phase, nobody gets to make scout moves and GW introduced a useless rule.

Danny Internet
08-06-2008, 01:31
The common counterarguements are:
1. Turbo Boosters is a special Rule. Which is true, but we're not debating whether or not it's a special rule, we're debating wheter or not it's use is part of Normal Movement Rules for jetbikes, which it clearly is.

You didn't address this counter-argument, which is based on what I identified as the crux of the issue. All you've said is that using a special form of movement is equivalent to normal movement, which is opinion, not fact.

By the way, your rebuttal to the second counter-point doesn't refute it at all. All it says is that no scout moves should be allowed based on a RAW argument which relies on that assertion (reminiscient of the infamous terminators don't wear terminator armor discussion). While I agree this would be absurd, identifying the absurdity is only that--interpreting the rule differently on this alone is just a designers' intent argument.

killstreak
08-06-2008, 01:38
The PDF states specifically that you cannot turbo-boost on your scout move.

eh not really, Ork Deffkoptas still can.

"...any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their movement phase, except that units of bikes may not use their turbo boosters special ability for their scout move." pg 79 of the pdf.

Deffkoptas are not bikes, they are jetbikes.

The only hang up on turbo boosting deff kopta scout moves are the words "normal move". Some, like yourself, see normal movement as 6" or 12" depending on the unit type.

"Bikes can move up to 12" in the movement phase. Bikes are not slowed by difficult terrain, each model entering or moving through difficult terrain must take a dangerous terrain test (see page xx). All bikes can use the Turbo Boosters special rule"
pg 55. under movement

all bikes, including jetbikes with the addition of their own special rules for movement, follow these rules for movement.

Turbo boosting is normal behavior for a bike.

No where in either the 4th ed rule book or the 5th ed PDF is Turbo boosting defined as special movement or being irregular.

of the three bikes that have the scout special rule two of them have rules that specifically state in their codices that they can not turbo boost for their scout move, unlike the Ork Deffkopta.

A Deffkopta moving 24" before the game begins would be unbalanced in 4th, but 5th has already layed out the rules to keep it from being so.

The scout special would put atleast 12" inches between your models and the Deffkopta. The Turbo Booster special rule in regards to turbo boosting states

"...they may not move through difficult terrain, shoot, launch assualts or move in any other phase in the same turn."


So if your opponent did Turbo boost some deffkoptas at you they would have to remain 12" inches away from you and they would be unable to move until the next turn.

you might as well just move 12"...

Now Turbo boosting scout moves dont sound as hot as they did before, do they? ;)

Dyrnwyn
08-06-2008, 05:08
eh not really, Ork Deffkoptas still can.

"...any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their movement phase, except that units of bikes may not use their turbo boosters special ability for their scout move." pg 79 of the pdf.

Deffkoptas are not bikes, they are jetbikes.

However, the way thier rules are set up in 5th, jetbikes follow all the rules for bikes with 'the following additions' is the phrasing used. So if something is forbidden for bikes, it's also forbidden for jetbikes unless specifically mentioned as being different for jetbikes.


The scout special would put atleast 12" inches between your models and the Deffkopta. The Turbo Booster special rule in regards to turbo boosting states

"...they may not move through difficult terrain, shoot, launch assualts or move in any other phase in the same turn."


So if your opponent did Turbo boost some deffkoptas at you they would have to remain 12" inches away from you and they would be unable to move until the next turn.

you might as well just move 12"...

Now Turbo boosting scout moves dont sound as hot as they did before, do they? ;)

Actually, unless the wording has changed on USR's in the 5th ed. rulebook, the Scout move occurs before the first turn, so they'd still be able to move when the first turn rolled around, as it wouldn't be the same turn.

Halfpast_Yellow
08-06-2008, 05:17
You didn't address this counter-argument, which is based on what I identified as the crux of the issue. All you've said is that using a special form of movement is equivalent to normal movement, which is opinion, not fact.



Er, he did address it. Read it again. You're saying that 'Special rule' and 'Special movement' are equivalent. They aren't.

SwordJon
08-06-2008, 05:59
The PDF states specifically that you cannot turbo-boost on your scout move.

If I remember correctly, the only limit on turbo boosting in the actual rulebook is that you must stay 12" away from your opponent.

azimaith
08-06-2008, 06:07
The crux of the issue comes down to how one defines a "normal" move. Turbo-boosting seems to many (including myself) to be a "special" move, which is why it has its own special rules. I can see it being interpreted either way with a RAW argument because of the vague language used.

The crux of the matter is that it doesn't say normal move. It says the it follows normal movement rules. The normal movement rules are always in effect in every movement phase. If turbo boost is not allowed in "normal movement rules" then it would never be allowed in any phase in any circumstance. Thats not the case.

It never said normal move.

killstreak
08-06-2008, 08:49
However, the way thier rules are set up in 5th, jetbikes follow all the rules for bikes with 'the following additions' is the phrasing used. So if something is forbidden for bikes, it's also forbidden for jetbikes unless specifically mentioned as being different for jetbikes. .

"jet bikes are treated as bikes with the following exceptions."

=(


oh well it doesnt really matter in 5th any way.

Natura
08-06-2008, 12:15
Actually, unless the wording has changed on USR's in the 5th ed. rulebook, the Scout move occurs before the first turn, so they'd still be able to move when the first turn rolled around, as it wouldn't be the same turn.

Righto, time to throw petrol onto this fire and just quote both the USR's straight from the 5th ed book:

"Scouts

Scouts are used to reconnoiter ahead and are always in the vanguard of the army. To represent this, after both sides have deployed (including infiltrators) but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy.

If both sides have scouts, the players roll-off and the winner decides who goes first, and then alternate moving these units

If a unit with this ability is deployed inside a dedicated transport vehicle, it confers the scout ability to the transport too.

This rule also confers a special outflank move to units of scouts that are kept in reserve (see page 94)

Turbo Boosters

Units mounted on bikes and jetbikes may utilise turbo-boosters to move at extreme speed. When using their turbo-boosters, they may move up to 24" in the Movement phase. Controlling their bike at such speeds takes all their concentration of skill, however, so they cannot move through difficult terrain, shoot, launch assaults, or execute any other voluntary action in the same turn. In the following enemy Shooting phase, the bike benefits from a cover save of 3+ to represent the difficult of hitting such fast moving targets. In that enemy Shooting phase, however, bikers lose the ability of going to ground, and automatically pass Pinning tests. A unit using Turbo-Booters must end it's move at least 18" away from it's starting point to claim this cover save, as it relies on flat-out speed. "

HiveFleetEzekial
08-06-2008, 14:18
Already a second page going, and out of the 22 total posts, only about 4 are actually dealing with how this *might* work in 5th?!


Seriously. If this is going to continue to devolve from the original point of this thread (how TB + Scouts may work in the upcoming edition), take it back to the rules section where current edition rules are supposed to be discussed. Dont needlessly drag the argument out here in the 5th edition rumors section. I may be a staunch supporter of one side. But, I'm not going to bring up *my* POV on it, as I've already said my piece in the appropriate threads and section of these boards. The 5th ed rumors is no place for 4th ed (or any other eddition's) rules debates or arguments (like this always ends up being).

Better yet, let this thread die and/or be cleaned up by the mods, and just go do a search on the issue and let it rest till 5th comes out!

Brimstone
08-06-2008, 15:09
OK until 5th edition is released the only place to discuss 5th edition rules etc. is in the specific forum and not the other sections of Warseer.

Thread Closed

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