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Ipeninrod
07-06-2008, 01:15
I'm trying to get around having to use a dragon like everyone else but I want something big and scary (terror). The Griffin is a neat model but lakes a save.
What are the thoughts or bennifits on this type of mount?

Chicago Slim
07-06-2008, 02:20
Griffins make an excellent alternative to a dragon, if you're trying to save a few points and (usually more importantly) a hero slot. Against a heavy magic and/or heavy shooting army, you should expect that the bird will take it in the gizzard by turn 3, if you haven't been very careful about ranges and lines of sight-- so, by turn 3, you should be committing the Prince+Griffin to a fight.

huitzilopochtli
07-06-2008, 12:54
can griffins be taken by a hero character? sorry, a little off topic but if they don't take up an extra slot, i thought they might be available to Nobles.

Condottiere
07-06-2008, 13:50
Not by High Elven Nobles.

Mozzamanx
07-06-2008, 13:57
Ha, that would be awesome if you could- 4 Griffin and 4 Giants in a 2000pts game, for 8 terror causing monsters :D

Marwynn
07-06-2008, 13:58
In most situations it dies before the character on it does through normal shooting. Same deal with the Great Eagle.

You have to protect it well, it's still a Large Target.

Red_Lep
07-06-2008, 14:59
If you want a Griffin then I'd suggest Eltharion, with him your Griffin is more likely to survive till you get into combat and you'd also get a lv2 mage for extra magic/magic protection which is nice.

Ipeninrod
07-06-2008, 18:06
So massed shooting will make a mess before it can close the gap? Are we talking missile troops or artillery. So roughly what's the math hammer for bows versus crossbows or bullets. How many shots should it take at long range and short range? Don't bother for artillery if it can drop a dragon it can drop a griffin.

W0lf
07-06-2008, 21:30
Why bother. Dargon or not, forget the griffon. Griffons have all the problems of dragons with half as many benefits.

Its half arsed :P

theunwantedbeing
07-06-2008, 21:50
Having to use a dragon?
Well thats rediculous.

Take the griffon.
Do not take eltharion(harry potter).

W0lf
07-06-2008, 21:52
I didnt say that.

I asked why bother with the griffon over the dragon.

Urgat
07-06-2008, 21:54
Why bother. Dargon or not, forget the griffon. Griffons have all the problems of dragons with half as many benefits.

Its half arsed :P

Means dragon ar fully arsed?

Gimp
07-06-2008, 22:04
Take Eltharion. He is on a Griffin. He also gives the Griffin a ward save which is good. And he is a level 2 mage always good too.

W0lf
07-06-2008, 22:06
exactly.

Works both ways ;)


I make no secret of it i find dragons to be for the 'tatically' impaired. Ill play against them but never with them.

Though the above only applies to below 3K.

Gazak Blacktoof
07-06-2008, 22:51
One of the guys that helps jeff with podhammer was experimenting with a lord on a griffin.

His idea was to use a magic bow and great weapon. If the griffin dies your character will actually improve (though obviously you aim for it not to die).

The benefit of the griffin (as already outlined) is that it doesn't take a hero slot so you can put an extra character (probably a mage) in the list.

Eltharion seems to combine everything in one package so if you and your group like special characters there's no reason not to take him unless you want a magic bow.

Ipeninrod
08-06-2008, 00:10
Gazak does your friend use this set up in a MSU config. That is what I am trying to do and yes I want the bad bow.

Ethlorien
08-06-2008, 00:55
Before the new plastic lord of dragon came out, I loved fielding my general on a Griffin; usually did me proud too. Now, when playing larger games, I cram both of them in!

WhiteKnight
08-06-2008, 01:31
For griffons, you absolutely must do this. Have a mage cast celestial shield on the prince on griffon and let all of those cannons and blackpowder guns try to kill him.

Urgat
08-06-2008, 08:18
exactly.

Works both ways ;)


I make no secret of it i find dragons to be for the 'tatically' impaired. Ill play against them but never with them.

Though the above only applies to below 3K.

They appear to be a point sink to me, honestly.
Btw, I thought I couldn't comment coz I know nothing about HE using griphons, but it occured to me that bretonians using hypogriphs weren't so different.
Two points:
1: they look awesome on the battlefield
2: they're incredibly fragile. Incredibly. I can't help but think there's something to be done about monstruous mount; bare dragons (I suppose, haven't faced any since 5th edition), they become a liability any time you turn a sword or an arrow at them. In one turn, your mighty lord on griffon may turn into a footman, even against weedy goblins. Not too glorious.

Gazak Blacktoof
08-06-2008, 08:31
Gazak does your friend use this set up in a MSU config. That is what I am trying to do and yes I want the bad bow.

Not my friend, just a guy on podhammer (a warhammer podcast). I'm not sure what the rest of hiw army was like, just the lord's configuration as I described above.

W0lf
08-06-2008, 09:43
2: they're incredibly fragile. Incredibly. I can't help but think there's something to be done about monstruous mount; bare dragons (I suppose, haven't faced any since 5th edition), they become a liability any time you turn a sword or an arrow at them. In one turn, your mighty lord on griffon may turn into a footman, even against weedy goblins. Not too glorious.

hence why i listed them as having the same problems as dragons. That being:

Vunerable to warmachines, Large Target, opponent putting lots of effort into killing it...

But they dont have as many benefits, they are more fragile, hit less and arnt half as cool.

hlaine larkin
08-06-2008, 10:22
as with anythign its what you want to do.
dragons- + strong- can probably frontal charge alot of units and win the combat
+ tough
+scary
+ will draw fire away from your troops
- lots of points
- takes up a hero slot
- range magnet- it WILL most likely die in the first 3 turns aswell as the entire enemy army will shoot it because they are big and scary

griffons- +quick
+good for flanking and supporting units
+ cheap(er)
+doesnt take up a hero slot
+still scary- but the enemy underestimates them-doesnt attract as much missile fire
- weak
-wont take a unit on its own

taking that all into consideration- griffins all the way, if you cared about being tough- you wouldnt have taken a T3 army.

Kerill
08-06-2008, 10:43
For 30 points more the sun dragon is definitely much better with T6 against magic missiles and S4 shooting. It depends if you have a plan for using 4 characters or not. For example:

Lord, griffon, gem of courage (or talisman of loec if you fancy), armour of caledor, lance, bow of the seafarer 451
Mage, seertsaff, level 2
Mage, jewel of the dusk, dispel level 2
Mage, silver wand level 2

runs in at 931 points, might be a bit too many characters for 2000 points bu at 2250 or 2500 would be a decent setup with a very strong magic phase, a might combat character and quite a lot of points left for troops (at 2250). Bow of the seafarer is pretty nasty too.

Hell, give it a go, its good to be different.

backslide
08-06-2008, 11:18
will 200 for the giffion, I don't think you have any bizness taking that 4th character if you want a rounded army so the sun dragon becomes tempting, then its not much of a step to that big nasty star dragon... grifion.. sorry the new dragon blows that model that comes from 3rd ed!!! 1992!! out of the water!

personally if I want terror with my HE I stick to my dragon mage, as his death is far from terminal for my army compared to a prince

The Old Scholar
08-06-2008, 17:29
I think it is a matter of who you play against and the type of army they field.
I tried a griffon against my good friend who plays Empire. It worked rather well.
I considered the Bow of the Seafarer, but took instead the Blade of Leaping Gold for additional attacks. I focused on flank charging and unit disruption via terror.
Worked really well supported by a Lion Chariot.
If he had better luck with his rocket launcher--it mis-fired and blew up (heh-heh)--it may have gone a bit differently, but I was cautious to place the griffon unit last and on the far end of the board away from his gun-lines.
He preferred thinning my units of infantry and cavalry anyway so this really didn't matter.
All that said, you have to be a bit more flexible when you approach army building. Unless you are committed to an ongoing campaign where you cannot change your army list, then I would experiment with the two different mounts until you find the right combination.
Good luck!

Xzazzarai
08-06-2008, 18:31
If you are taking a Dragon thereby using the Hero-slot they use, there is no point in taking the Sun Dragon.
It's either Griffon or Star Dragon.