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WallyTWest
07-06-2008, 13:20
Question, I plan to run a knight heavy empire list and have a 1000 & 2000point variant of it. However the second rank of knights seems like a waste of points, and I cant help but wonder in larger games why knights need this second rank. I can't see it being worth the effort.

I was wondering if a player might enlighten me as to the pourpose of the second rank.

Nabeshin1106
07-06-2008, 13:31
Better Static Combat Res is the only thing I could think of for a reason. +1 Rank and maybe +1 for Outnumbering your foe could let your Knight unit carry combats by itself instead of charging in with something else. Having extra bodies to fill in spots would be nice, but that alone wouldn't be worth it IMO.

Condottiere
07-06-2008, 13:41
At this level of play, having a second rank isn't worth it.

If you don't think you have a chance of winning combat resolution with a unit 6 wide, it's unlikely you'll achieve it with +1.

Dual ranked cavalry make juicy targets for artillery, not to mention magic missiles.

IvorTangrean
07-06-2008, 13:44
It may not seem like much but playing against an empire player who often runs a unit of 9-10 inner circle knights let me tell you what the benefit is: They are hard to stop! A unit of 5-6 knights will see a notiable reduction in fighting power per knight you kill where as a unit on 10 will see a much smaller reduction in fighting power. Have you ever heard the line "every time I kill one two more take it's place" now instead of this applying to Skaven apply it to knights.

klinktastic
07-06-2008, 16:49
Empire Knights are a support unit. Take that in for a second. They aren't Bret. Knights.

Ok, they should never be charging ranked units alone. They should support, or augment either a 1) pre-existing CC (preferably in the flank) or 2) combo charge with something that generates a lot of kills or has static combat res.

Now ask yourself, why have 1 unit of 10 when I could have 2 units of 5?

Given the known logic above, I believe you could answer the question yourself.

BattleBoxGaming
07-06-2008, 17:01
Ranked cavalry is pretty pointless unless you have access to a special rule like the "lance formation."

The only reason I can think of paying all those extra points for a rank is because ranked cavalry looks so much better on the battlefield! I really wish GW would create a rule that made ranked cavalry effective, because 5 Silver Helms in a row look flimsy!

theunwantedbeing
07-06-2008, 17:10
Usually a second rank isnt worth it at all.
Simply due to the huge cost of it....it'll almost always set you back over 100points for 5 knights, usually it'll be far closer and often beyond 150pts.

Unless you have the lance formation or absurdly cheap knights (or have simply run out of special slots for knights) then ranks arent worth it.

Condottiere
07-06-2008, 18:05
because 5 Silver Helms in a row look flimsy!

Five Silver Helms are flimsy.;)

Conotor
08-06-2008, 01:05
I have never played with cheep cav (oviously). The one time I played against an empire cav force, the guy used a giant to help out his knights, as it can fight on corners, and put lots of heroes in his cavalry units to make them capable of breaking units.

huitzilopochtli
08-06-2008, 01:14
i recently saw an interesting unit of lizardmen cold ones. there were 18 plus an oldblood, making a unit of 20 with four ranks. granted against any warmachines that would be suicide, but the player in question was playing vampire counts and the tactic paid off for him. he killed a vampire (which had charged with the dreadlance and red fury, and had a 4+ ward save) on combat res. i would've loved to see that unit charge something though....

i'd give the second rank of knights a go, provided you are not likely to face any warmachines. or, take three or four ranks and try a similar tactic to the one mentioned above. go for one, all-out charge for the hell of it.

scarletsquig
08-06-2008, 02:44
A big unit of 10 inner circle knights works really well, especially with a warrior priest and templar grand master in the unit.

The unit needs to take 3 casualties before losing it's +1 bonus.

It gets +1 for outnumbering a lot more often, and denies the +1 numbers bonus to the enemy, effectively making it +2.

Finally, it's very durable.. add a warbanner or standard of arcane warding as the magic banner.

TK421
08-06-2008, 08:49
Very nice to have if your knights happen to cause fear as well.

Urgat
08-06-2008, 09:10
Well, in the case of khorne knights or savage boar boyz, it also makes the unit liable to survive a flank charge. Eight attacks from two models, not too bad :)
Also, savage boar boyz have a fraction of chance to survive even canonballs. Ok, that amounts to about nothing, but it's there, so worth noticing.
I've never tried a ranked boar unit though, to be honest.
Empire knights? Well, they're core, the normal ones, so I'd just multiply the units, I suppose, since I'd not be limited in the number of choices.

sephiroth87
10-06-2008, 01:56
I used to run a unit of 16 boars so that I had a cavalry unit with full rank bonus. It was glorious....:D

Nowadays, I figure what I'll lose getting across the table due to shooting and just add that amount on to make a full fighting force when it gets there. I don't take any less than 9 boar boyz in a unit due to organ guns, flamers, and volley guns. I usually get down to 5 when they charge. If they get left alone (unlikely, due to the number of attacks they get), I usually get outnumbering bonuses and the ability to take on and beat a second unit even after it's ground down a unit and lost a few casualties.

WallyTWest
10-06-2008, 04:09
[QUOTE=scarletsquig;2680390]The unit needs to take 3 casualties before losing it's +1 bonus. [QUOTE]

Wait a second... rank bonus is counted by unit strength instead of by actual number of models?

Condottiere
10-06-2008, 04:42
[QUOTE=scarletsquig;2680390]The unit needs to take 3 casualties before losing it's +1 bonus. [QUOTE]

Wait a second... rank bonus is counted by unit strength instead of by actual number of models?

No, what he means is that you have 12 models in three ranks and only if you lose 3 models, do you lose your +1 rank bonus.:cool:

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tanka
10-06-2008, 11:53
10 inner circle knights with a templar grand master, warrior priest and the fear banner will go through most things on the charge.

But as others have said, empire knights are mainly a support unit and not a hammer.

Rodman49
10-06-2008, 12:10
I tend to deploy Inner Circle Knights in a 6x1 formation with full command. Generally the unit can destroy small missile units, fast cavalry, and artillery if given the chance. Additionally it can threaten flanks and only costs 196 points. On the downsides it does tie up a Special slot and is a fairly easy banner to capture.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
10-06-2008, 20:58
imo the second rank of knights is useless. Banner can alter supplement outnumber etc. Knights win combats on kills! With my dragon princes i wouldnt think about a second rank. Of course unlike dragon princes empire knights can be owned with lom. MSU of knights is better i think.. Good luck:)

Irisado
10-06-2008, 21:32
Surely it depends on the army you're facing to a certain extent?

In my experience of playing the Empire, having more two ranks of Inner Circle Knights has been pretty successful, especially when led by a Grand Master.

Having said that, it is a more risky strategy when you go up against armies which have access to a lot of war machines. Bolt Throwers, in particular, are the bane of Empire Knights.

If it's a unit of non Inner Circle Knights though I definitely wouldn't bother taking a second rank.