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Zephyr_Azure
07-06-2008, 16:35
I decided to rewrite the chapter organization of my DIY chapter because I remember reading on warseer how inefficient the layout of the companies are. I tried searching for the post but I haven't been able to find it.

Can anyone elaborate if the chapter organization is inefficient and why? And if so...how would you make it better?

On to clarify....we are not talking about the 1000 number limit of the space marines, just the organization of the companies.

Thanks in advance. I've been stumped all morning trying to figure it out.

Condottiere
07-06-2008, 16:57
I can't really speak for the game mechanics, but the origin of the chapter organization is the 18th century regiment, which were organized into 1 grenadier company, 1 light company and 8 ordinary ones. These ere officered by by a colonel, 2 majors, 10 captains, 20 plus lieutenants and a number of officer-cadets/ensigns (cornets if cavalry).

The current form tends to resemble more a Roman cohort, with sub-officers running squads and only 1 captain/centurion per company.

Personally, I'd reorganize them more along the lines of a modern rifle battalion with five rifle companies, headquarters, support and heavy weapons companies.

Rifle companies would be reorganized into platoons. This, in my opinion, would permit a great deal more of flexibility and increased response for marine operations.

That's the nutshell version of what I have in mind.

Coffee
07-06-2008, 17:58
In my mind, the biggest problem with a Codex Astartes Battle Company is the lack of integrated tank support, with vehicles falling under the jurisdiction of the Chapter Armory. Other issues I have are the segregation of veterans, scouts, and reserve elements into separate Companies, and therefore separate commands.

If I were a Chapter Master, I'd organize each Battle Company as a self-sufficient, fully integrated strike force: each Company would have its own allocation of vehicles, scouts, Terminator support, and bike/speeder elements.

ChaosBeast
07-06-2008, 18:49
wasnt the whole point of the codex astartes, (including the layout of companies) to make the astartes interdependant. so if one company went renegade they would be easy to defeat? i.e. make them less eficient

Zephyr_Azure
07-06-2008, 18:57
Thanks for the replies. I did some reworking and decided to follow a joint-strike force format under one command. Does this seem plausible?

The 2nd through 9th companies are organized as identical self-sufficient strike forces, mirroring the setup of a battle company with their own allocation of tanks from the armory. Another difference is that the battle companies are split as 5 tactical squads, 3 assault squads, and 2 devastator squads. However, all marines are trained in every aspect of warfare and it is not uncommon for some tactical squads to play assault or fire support roles. This organization is because of the Ravenclaw’s preference for infantry tactics. By making sure every individual marine can play the part as a tactical, assault, or devastator marine it allows the chapter to maintain flexible on the battlefield.

Coffee
07-06-2008, 21:04
wasnt the whole point of the codex astartes, (including the layout of companies) to make the astartes interdependant. so if one company went renegade they would be easy to defeat? i.e. make them less eficient

Balance of power was the chief reason for the Codex breaking the Legions down, and I suppose that carries through into the structure of the companies... or it may just be a testament to the anal retentiveness of Roboute Gulliman.

Minister
08-06-2008, 10:59
The companies, battle and otherwise, primarily exist as administrative formations rather than battlefield units. The 3rd company will not deploy to the battlefield as the 3rd company, but will be the core of a formation with other units (inevitably armoury, usually units drawn from other companies and with support from the Chapter command). Marine doctrine, and especially Codex doctrine, emphasises cross-training and co-ordinated training to ensure that if you have units from all ten companies scraped together from what was left at the Chapter fortress it will function just as well as a reenforced battle company.

different13
08-06-2008, 12:14
Rather OT, but I've always found it strange that the Salamanders 7 companies weren't fully independent of each other, considering what Vulkan preached...

Another stupid thing about Codex organisation is that it implies there is only one apothecary per company.

bertcom1
08-06-2008, 12:26
Another stupid thing about Codex organisation is that it implies there is only one apothecary per company.

Seems companies have their own apothecary, but there is also the Chapter HQ apothecaries. If necessary, they could be attached to supplement the company apothecary.

3rd edition codex SM had the Chief & 11 apothecaries in the HQ, plus 10 company ones,

AdmiralDick
08-06-2008, 13:57
wasnt the whole point of the codex astartes, (including the layout of companies) to make the astartes interdependant. so if one company went renegade they would be easy to defeat? i.e. make them less eficient

i'm not sure i've read that specific arguement anywhere, but it seems like a pretty logical reason to me. i know that if i were trying to make the SM Legions less dangerous to the Imperium, i'd force them to have to constantly keep asking for help. that way everyone knows what everyone else is up to (no secrets or conspiricies), and no one can go off and do their own thing (not for long anyway).


Balance of power was the chief reason for the Codex breaking the Legions down, and I suppose that carries through into the structure of the companies... or it may just be a testament to the anal retentiveness of Roboute Gulliman.

it was certainly the cheif reason, but i can't imagine for a second that the above reasoning would fit squarely into that issue.

also, its worth pointing out that Guilliman did not write the whole of the Codex Astartes. his original version of the Codex would have been a master stroke of genius (because he was one), it was a book written by a Space Marine for Space Marines, and whilst the Ultramarines are marked by their perscriptive ideals, i doubt that the tome would have been so legalistic that most SM wouldn't have agreed with it. it is later additions to the book, by lesser authors that have made the Codex into something of a poor cloning device.

its also worth meditating on what exactly the codex is; i would personally deduce a number of things from what we already know. the difference between a Legions (which does not follow the Codex) and a Chapter (which does) is not a simple matter of how each man is equipt and with whom he stands, but much more deep and profound than that. there are after all, plenty of chapters that are considered 'codex' but that differer in their organistional structure to the Ultamarines. know, the most notable difference between a Legion and a Chapter is that a Legion is invariably a personality cult. everyone in a Legion aspires to be the personal Champion of a powerful commander, and those commanders aspire to be the right-hand men of their Primarch. everything everyone does is geared around this. officers are left to do as they see fit, as long as they get the job done.

conversley a chapter has a lot more middle-men in it. their is a Sergant and Squad Leader for every 10 men for a start. men are promoted on a set system, rather than ad-hoc. and the top-dog spot is severly neutered in comparison to a Legion, meaning that the Chapter is about the job at hand, and not about him. it is much harder for any one individual to exert any kind of influence over a Chapter, where as a Captain of a chapter in a Legion could run the show practically however he liked.

i think that for most Marines immeadiately after the Codex's introduction, that would have been the biggest change. i doubt they would have had their weapons taken off them and given something else. and whilst their squad may have been split up and some of them promoted to Sergants, i suspect they would have performed the same role on the battlefield.