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View Full Version : Balanced 2K Lizzies. Anything major I'm overlooking?



Flypaper
23-10-2005, 14:32
I'm about three-fifths of the way to assembling the following, so I figured I'd put it out there for more sober minds to assess. The list is supposed to work best at medium-range disputing the centre - I've got a chunky magic phase, but it's not guaranteed to dominate; and short-range Lizard shooting means that I may not have ranged inevitability and might need to advance on the enemy.

I've got a couple of deployment options - either a weighted flank (running in order of Movement speed from one flank to the other, Sallies anchoring the slow end) or an empty-centre with TG+Krox and CoR+Saurus acting as independent hammer-and-anvil "kill teams".

...So anyway, I'm posting this to make sure nothing's illegal... And that I'm not making any self-gimping major mistakes. I'm not aiming for a dominating list, but I'd like something I can take anywhere and not be too embarrassed - hey, lizards are meant to be all-rounders, right? ;)

(finally, having your own army list thread is handy if you need to point people to what you usually play in later discussion) :chrome:

<<Characters:>>
SLANN MAGE-PRIEST (General)
<Lord Rhadamanthine ["Patriarch of Uncompromising Righteousness"]>
- 4th generation
- Battle Standard
- Diadem of Power
- Plaque of Tepok
= 440

SKINK PRIEST
<Tenq'uan ["Reads the Moon"]>
- Level upgrade
- Cloak of Feathers
= 130

<<Core:>>
12x TEMPLE GUARD
- Shields
- Musician
= 223

16x SAURUS WARRIORS
- Musician
- Standard
- Champion
= 222

12x SKINK SKIRMISHERS
- Javelin and Shield
- Brave
- Scouts
= 89

12x SKINK SKIRMISHERS
- Blowpipes
- Brave
- Scouts
= 89

<<Special:>>
6x SAURUS CAVALRY
- Musician
- Standard Bearer
- Warbanner
= 265

4x KROXIGORS
= 232

3x TERRADON RIDERS
- Brave
= 115

<<Rare:>>
3x SALAMANDER HUNTING PACKS
= 195

<<Total: 2000>>

Quick disclaimers:
- Braves (Skinks, Terries) are a mistake in hindsight, but they're painted and assembled & at the points cost I may as well just keep the WYSIWYG!
- The Jav-skinks will probably screen most of the time, but I had exactly twelve points left and figured the versatility of giving them scouting was worth it.
- Temple Guard were a knee-jerk reaction... To my main opponent announcing he's going to buy a dragon! I decided even Tzlacotl-marked Saurus hiding the Slann had too high a chance of breaking to a charging dragon for my conservative tastes. :p
- I'd like to point out that Tenq'uan is that rarity: a legitimate apostrophe! It is, of course, noting the dropped H from "Huan" ("moon"). :)

dumbuket
24-10-2005, 17:26
I decided even Tzlacotl-marked Saurus hiding the Slann had too high a chance of breaking to a charging dragon for my conservative tastes

Did I miss something, or did stubborn somehow become more reliable than "immune to psychology"?

Lossion
24-10-2005, 20:19
I like it, it is balanced, and legal from what I can tell. Not overly powerful, but I feel you could make a few minor changes. I would just be worried about no really large units 12 man units frighten me. But try it out and let us know what happens.

Good luck

Batman
25-10-2005, 01:33
I like the list, it's close to what I run when I use a Slaan. However I would feel a little exposed without a Scar-Vet. Also, I would drop all of the braves in the skink and terradon units, they won't really help you out. You could also drop the cloak of feathers and get 2 dispel scrolls for some magic defense.

In regards to Stubborn being more reliable than Immune to Psychology, in terms of break tests it is more reliable. You still have to modify your Ld if you lose combat with Immune to Psychology, Stubborn allows you to use your unmodified Ld for break tests.

la_roche
25-10-2005, 01:36
Definitly get rid of the braves in the skink units, though I find depending on your opponents army the terry one is worth it. Personally I think the Temple Guard would be more reliable than the normal saurus, but I don't like sinking so many points into one model (Slann) in 2k. Let the guy take a dragon, take a carny to deal with it for a fraction of the points. It would be helpful if I new what army you were playing against, but I think that two units of blowpipes might be more affective as a killing technique for the dragon and other things aswell. Is it worth it to make both units scouts? I love the salies, but I'm one of those people who think the cold one riders are over cost and under effective. They are going to outdistance the rest of your army if you use them for head on charges and it you just want flankers then krox are better. I like units of three krox, the units of four are less manuverable and tend to draw enemy fire. I just don't like this composition too much, but to each his own.

La_Roche

peteratwar
25-10-2005, 08:17
Personally I don't take Slaan at 2K (think about it at 3K), but then I am combat orientated. He plus any Temple Guard unit are a great point sink at that level

The braves aren't really necessary & you might like to try the Huanchi Totem for your cavalry.

However if you use a Slann you are going to have to rely on magic a lot, still your cavalry & Kroxigor should make a good strike force & Terradons are very useful in support roles, warmachine attacking etc.

MarcoPollo
26-10-2005, 00:43
I agree that temple guard a point sink. But if you have them you may as well use them. The skink priest with the cloak is not necessary. Give him something else as the cloak is usually for a skink hero to hunt down mages and BSB's.

You only need 5 saurus cavalry, convert one of them to a hero with a great weapon and find a spot for him. Also the banner of Huanichi, d6 movement in magic phase is great for flanking. The braves are a waste of points too.

Saurus the best marks for saurus are the immune to psychology or the +1 armor save so consider that extra expense if you can.

Flypaper
26-10-2005, 02:57
Heh, I take one day off from the internet and I get a flood of quality replies. Thanks, guys! :)

OK, I'll start from the top:

Did I miss something, or did stubborn somehow become more reliable than "immune to psychology"?
I'm not too worried about panic or terror tests on a coldblooded nine leadership. Were I facing large blocks of skeletons regularly I might feel differently! :o

My main opposition is a mixed High Elf list - he hasn't bought the dragon yet, but I may as well plan ahead. So against 10-man units of Silver Helms (sometimes with a BSB) and suicidally-charged Dragons... Yeah, stubborn is a lot more useful than immune to psyche.


I would just be worried about no really large units 12 man units frighten me.
Welcome to the Lizardmen world. :(
...Seriously, 20-saurus units are affordable only if you're basing your entire strategy around them - whereas in this list they're more of a high-quality speedbump which only needs to hold for a turn.
Twelve TG plus the Slann have unit strength 17, so they're not as weedy as they might look at first glance. Again, upping the count is something that would make both my points-count and my wallet turn pale!

...I might add that I'm not too worried about attrition right now - I've yet to face too much in the way of heavy shooting. Again, this may change with experience.


However I would feel a little exposed without a Scar-Vet.
Really? Why? Wouldn't a Scar-Vet's weight in Skinks do a better job of screening?
Temple Guard should hold for a turn against anything in the game but ten Black Knights or eight Ogre Bulls - and I'll be keeping the Kroxigors near the Slann to punish any other "breaker" units.

I would drop all of the braves in the skink and terradon units, they won't really help you out.
Agreed. As I mentioned, though, they're already painted; and I figure the 20-point hit isn't damaging enough that I need to break WYSIWYG.

You could also drop the cloak of feathers and get 2 dispel scrolls for some magic defense.
One of the priest's main functions is to act as a "spotter" for the Slann - allowing me to sit my big expensive unit behind some terrain for a turn or two if necessary without losing spellcasting power. There's also something inherently uncool about scrolls, and I'm confident in my 5 DD + Diadem to potentially seven to keep down that single Flames of the Phoenix every turn... Again, this opinion may change with experience and I'm open to the option.


Let the guy take a dragon, take a carny to deal with it for a fraction of the points.
This seems problematic - a potentially-frenzied M7 isn't a reliable way of catching a flier! Plus the difference in WS more or less cancels out the advantages of being an Ultimate Predator.
...But hey, I'll buy a carnie eventually just 'cause the model's soo cool. So I'll take it under advisement. ;)

It would be helpful if I new what army you were playing against, but I think that two units of blowpipes might be more affective as a killing technique for the dragon and other things aswell.
It's about tactical variety - the javeliners will spend probably two-thirds of the time acting as screens for either the Krox or the TG, and I'd rather have shields for that role. Blowpipe-fire isn't that hot against elves, either - you're bypassing low toughness and meeting decent armour.
Plus the javs look cool.

I'm one of those people who think the cold one riders are over cost and under effective.
A fairly late addition to the list, I ended up deciding the CoR were better "line" units than a Stegadon!

I like units of three krox, the units of four are less manuverable
It's true, it's true. But I need to put the fear of something into my opponent's Silver Helms! Three krox just don't get in enough hits against high-WS elves for my tastes - combat results end up a teensy bit too inconclusive.


You only need 5 saurus cavalry, convert one of them to a hero with a great weapon and find a spot for him. Also the banner of Huanichi, d6 movement in magic phase is great for flanking.
Well, I need to take out Elven spearmen and possibly White Lions, so the extra hammering should come in handy. I'd also have trouble justifying a standard - let alone a magic one! - for a 5-model cavalry unit.
I'm not convinced a JSoD is necessary for this list. Terradons do half his job, Kroxigors the other half (ye olde Chariot smashing!). Adding an extra hero here seems inefficient (and it took me a lot of work to go down below 600 points of characters in the first place!)
The Blessed Totem is a nice trick, but I like the guaranteed +1 CR for my offensive unit. There's a price difference too...

...Phew, that took a while! Keep the comments coming - am I overestimating the Cavalry's ability to smash the face? Are the little point inefficiencies keeping me from buying something I really need? Does anyone else hate the way Terradon riders don't fit in any sort of case (now officially known as "those stupid, stupid turkey-riders!")?

(Holy smiley-limit, Batman! You may need to fill in some emoting of your own for my post to carry the right air of polite whimsicallity!)

la_roche
26-10-2005, 03:08
"This seems problematic - a potentially-frenzied M7 isn't a reliable way of catching a flier! Plus the difference in WS more or less cancels out the advantages of being an Ultimate Predator."

First, you control when he gets frenzied. Second, he hits things on 4s just like anything you have will against elves, you aren't going to beat their weapon skill. Also, he is scapable of doing other things, the silver helms for instance. They are quite capable of taking down dragons. Also I find it hard to believe that 3 krox wouldn't put the fear of god into a unit of silver helms. Again, they hit on 4s like anything else that you would put against them would.

peteratwar
26-10-2005, 08:04
CoR are good but they aren't heavy cavalry. If they get the charge in then that is good. The Huanchi totem is very useful BUT is one use only so you have to think carefully when to use it. Also it may not work!! You could only throw a 1 (as I have done when only 2" away from my opponent!!!)

Personally I prefer 4 Kroxigor, you have some resilience.

MarcoPollo
28-10-2005, 23:58
When I play i use a 3rd gen Slann that gives me one extra rare slot. This allows for 6 salamanders. I then use mostly magic missle spells on my Slann an the fact that he is a large target to see over terrain and other units. This provides me with a very impressive shooting/magic phase indeed.

But this is a rather boring style of play for me. I prefer to engage in combat and break units from CR than causing panic. But to win, salamders provide me with the results I like.

DeathMasterSnikch
29-10-2005, 01:37
"This seems problematic - a potentially-frenzied M7 isn't a reliable way of catching a flier! Plus the difference in WS more or less cancels out the advantages of being an Ultimate Predator."

First, you control when he gets frenzied. Second, he hits things on 4s just like anything you have will against elves, you aren't going to beat their weapon skill. Also, he is scapable of doing other things, the silver helms for instance. They are quite capable of taking down dragons. Also I find it hard to believe that 3 krox wouldn't put the fear of god into a unit of silver helms. Again, they hit on 4s like anything else that you would put against them would.


Actualy he goes into frenzy when he causes a wound. Not exactly control but at least it will only activate when the carny is in combat so you do have control over it if you control when he is in combat.

I think a carny is a very good idea. It causes terror so will not be effected by the dragons terror and will have the chances of making elven cavalry run etc.

Set one on a flank and watch it go :p

If you do get one army the rider with shield of the mirror pool if your against a magic heavy army or you suspect he will draw magical fire.

Flypaper
29-10-2005, 14:48
The plan at the moment is to buy a carnosaur and try it out after I've completed (& tried out a bit more) the current list. Like I said, the model's just too cool to be ignored completely!

...Unfortunately, I can't just hot-swap carnie and Slann, since I'd also have to make up the numbers for 220 points' worth of Temple Guard. Gah! I'll either paint up another box of Saurus (probably Tepok'ed) or buy six Chameleon Skinks and a scroll caddy for a high-mobility alternative. Either way, given my glacially slow painting style, I probably won't get to really try one out for about six months!

@peter: CoR over a second unit of Krox mainly because I want to paint up a box! Tactically, I think they'll end up being used in similar roles... But this is a "play with my toys" list and I want to Play With My Toys (tm). ;)

@Marco: I understand salamanders are the hotness, but I don't want to be accused of tailoring my list towards killing elves! They're not exactly the most financially efficient unit, either. :p

Do you really find the third gen upgrade that effective? I'm only going fourth instead of fifth because I am (let's face it) a coward, but I don't see that an extra wound and Drain Magic are worth the 45 points. It's not like Slann with a bodyguard are ever actually killed by losing all their wounds - run-down by US20 fear causers is pretty much it.
(...The victory points penalty is neither here nor there, of course. If the Slann goes down your opponent is more or less guaranteed a massacre, so what's an extra hundred? :rolleyes: )

Lord Anathir
29-10-2005, 18:30
all i can say is that against a high elf player, (if i were playing) i would get my rbts to target the krox first and then the templre guard, and the archers agaisnt the terradon, and then the skinks). just take a note of that. Krox arent the most resilient to shooting.