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Mozzamanx
08-06-2008, 14:28
Ello,

I may possibly start an Ogre army later this year, and I'm planning out some stuff. I'm definitely taking a Hunter, definitely a Scraplauncher and probably a few Yhetees.

However, I'm really not sure what to do with my Tyrant.

I'll certainly give him Mawseeker, and to compliment that, probably the Jade Lion. However, I'm not so sure about what weapon to give him.

I know that Tenderiser seems to be far more popular, but I honestly can't see why. Most players even consider it mandatory, but it looks a bit rubbish to me- 50pts for a D3 wound weapon?
On the other hand, the Thundermace seems awesome- an exploding great weapon which can hit about 20 models with a solid hit. Yeah, it's bad if he misses, but that's what the Ironguts are there to make up for right?

The Thundermace seems much nicer, but everyone else swears by the Tenderiser- why??

(Just to keep him cheap, I may just give him an Ironfist :))

Cheers for any help

him_15
08-06-2008, 14:41
Tederiser is much better IMO, it's great against character and anything with more than one wound, And it's cheaper!
Thundermace is, on the other hand, not so reliable, you have to hit with a single attack, and if you miss that could cost you the whole unit.
Hunter totally sucks, if you want to win don't take him! What's the point for a very expensive bolt thrower that could easily be shoot to dead and takes up an important hero choice?

Mozzamanx
08-06-2008, 15:10
Perhaps, but do Ogres really need that much help dealing with multi wound targets? I would have guessed that since they are always outnumbered, it's better to tool them up for mass removal of infantry.

And I know the Hunter isn't exactly Hero-of-the-year, but I have an awesome conversion idea for Sabretusks and I love his theme.

Stouty
08-06-2008, 15:44
D3 Wounds is guaranteed goodness for a Tyrant, it's a very low risk investment. Any unit with a champion, you challenge and then kill said champion whilst taking full points for overkill. This is enough to deal with most static combat res assuming they don't have a bunch of magical standards. At this point the iron guts or whoever work their way into the rest of the unit for a good clean first turn break.

Of course it never quite works like that, and after a few goes people will start denying challenges but that's okay, you'll end up forcing some fairly nasty characters to the back as well.

Also, ogres need all the multi-wound they can get, dragons and other monsters can really ruin their day as nothing they have is that well armoured, they find it easy to clock up kills.

So yeah, it is good, much less risky (you can't risk him not contributing anything to a combat) and cheaper to.

Also: Hunters kind of suck but you can incorporate if you really want to. Personally I love the concept so I could understand why (but for hero choices another Butcher never hurts).

him_15
08-06-2008, 15:44
As I said, you can never sure the Tyrant will hit with the singe attack. there are only 2/3 of chances you will hit, or 1/2 if they have a character with high WS (very likely), then if you miss, you are in trouble, 3 Ironguts can't do you enough damage to win combat. And bye-bye to your lord and his bodyguard. I don't mean it's useless, but it's just not reliable enough.
If you are determined to field a Hunter, give him the Mastodon armour, and watch him to get killed by shooting and come back again and again!
Use him to shoot Big monster (+1 to hit, and the strength test), or run him to the flank of those nasty knights and shoot the whole rank at once( if you hit, that is). The Sabretusks go for hunting warmachine and lonely wizard.

Mozzamanx
08-06-2008, 17:38
Hmm, I guess I see why it is so useful. A potential combo would be the Tenderiser and a brace of handguns- If the challenge is accepted, pummel the champion to a squishy puddle, and if they refuse then use the handguns to get 6 attacks on the rest of em.

And besides, the Hunter isn't that bad. Statwise, the 'Tusks are almost like Bloodcrushers, except they are way cheaper, faster and come with a 4 attack Bolt Thrower. I'm gonna take Mastodon Armour as well, so he's almost unkillable. And the hero isn't a problem, I was only gonna take 3 characters anyway due to the price.

Cheers Warseer

Urgat
08-06-2008, 20:05
As far as I know, you cannot use the handguns in melee, you cannot use another weapon when you have a magic one.

kyussinchains
08-06-2008, 21:48
As far as I know, you cannot use the handguns in melee, you cannot use another weapon when you have a magic one.

that is correct, you can choose to use a hand weapon in favour of a different mundane one, but if you have a magic weapon you have to use it.

I love the thundermace, remember it's a great weapon, so if there is too much risk to try out the explosion attack, you can always get 5 S7 attacks instead.... to date I've flattened 14 greatswords, 11 elf spearmen, a dozen empire swordsmen and 17 skeletons each in a single whack, you've got a 2/3 chance of hitting, so I say go for it!

the tenderiser is the best option for consistency, but for fun, it's thundermace all the way!

Drongol
09-06-2008, 04:02
A Tyrant comes with a Tenderiser.

Yes, it is mandatory, for reasons described above.

I would personally love to see the Thundermace be viable, but a 33% chance of missing and, therefore, losing combat just isn't worth it.

Also, I'd like to point out that Mawseeker + Jade Lion really isn't that good. Better to take Kineater for the panic rerolls so you can bait and flee more readily, I've found.

Drongol

Jagosaja
09-06-2008, 08:35
My advice is to take both Thundermace and Hunter. OK, some opponents may crush you, or your Hunter may be shot in first turn, or plenty of other bad things may happen. But trust me, with Hunter and Thundermace you'll have way more fun. You'll be waiting for the Tyrant to get in that combat with large units, and I can imagine the smile on your face when you accomplish to hit. It may be 33-50% chance to hit, but it is 100% fun, opposite to the Tenderiser which gives you better chances, but no fun at all.

This is supposed to be a fun game, not a WAAC game, so Tenderiser is not mandatory. But if the goal is to win, then go for Dwarf gunline, Vampire horde, Bretonnian RAF or High Elven Star Dragon, not Ogre Kingdoms.

Urgat
09-06-2008, 10:36
I always take the standard great weapon, am I odd? :p
I really want to test the thundermace (it does sound fun), but I have yet to play a game where I can field a tyrant :'(

snyggejygge
09-06-2008, 10:50
I agree w. Jagosaja take what you think is more fun, in that way the games will be more fun & the most important rule in warhammer is that players should have fun.

When I play w. my friends I always try out stuff that isnīt the best viable option, I take what I like & sounds fun, even if it means I lose, so what? I can take the best stuff the few times I play in tournaments, when I play to win...

madden
09-06-2008, 13:26
Just for the change have a look at the seige braker a +3s great weapon hits with there int against your ws if i remember right its what i use or i go with the cathay sword. Your best bet is to try them out and see which you prefer.

Drongol
09-06-2008, 18:24
Just for the change have a look at the seige braker a +3s great weapon hits with there int against your ws if i remember right its what i use or i go with the cathay sword. Your best bet is to try them out and see which you prefer.

Siegebreaker does not help unless your opponent is a Dwarf Thane, Tomb Prince, or has a 2+ or better save. In those circumstances, it performs better than a standard Great Weapon. At substantially more points.

And, just as an aside, people do not come to tactics boards to get "fun" advice. Everyone is more than capable of having fun without other people telling them how to do it. Efficient army-building, however, sometimes requires help.

Thundermace is not economical and will lose more games than it will win. Likewise, Hunters are not good uses of Hero slots. Sure, they might be "fun," but this isn't "Warhammer Fun," it's "Warhammer Tactics."

Drongol

CarlostheCraven
09-06-2008, 20:40
Hi

Quite frankly, the hunter is a fine choice with two cats and longstrider. The offensive output from this unit at a (relatively) high WS is fantastic. The versatility of the unit is unmatched in the ogre army. The rock solid leadership allows him to be placed on the flank with the need for a tyrant to babysit him. Against any army that contains warmachines, he rightly draws fire away from the things that matter.

What is not to like? "More butchers are better". This statement may be true provided you want to take three butchers, but the difference between one butcher and two butchers for the points you have to invest is nowhere near being points efficient. Against a magic light army, one is enough to get you by if you have a bangstick, and against a magic heavy army, the additional two dice is largely ineffectual.

Add to all this the fact that playing the cookie-cutter internet list is not something that I would ever take pride in, and the max butcher, max irongut style is rather dull. Effective, but dull.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

Malorian
09-06-2008, 20:40
I looked at the book, decide on the tenderiser and haven't changed my list since, and had no regrets...

A buddy of mine uses the thundermace in his army and it has done some horrific damage (in fact I can't remember it ever missing...) but the risk just isn't worth it to me.

The only time I would take the thundermace is on a slaughtermaster, and since most people argue that only a tyrant can use the special attack, that's even gone...

kyussinchains
09-06-2008, 20:59
seems my point that the thundermace is also a great weapon has gone unheeded.... you dont ALWAYS have to use the special attack, if your opponent has no characters or refuses the challenge (as is the sensible option when there is only a unit champion) the tenderiser is NO better than the thundermace in it's standard mode....

sure against brets, dwarfs or daemons the thundermace isnt great, but against any army with blocks of 20mm based T3 troops it's awesome, especially for the psycological effect it has on your opponent when he knows your tyrant can flatten half a unit in one go.....

oh and I give the siegebreaker to a butcher with the skullmantle, an extra 3 S7 attacks from my wizard? yes please!

oh and since when were tactics solely about winning and "the best" combinations? tactics can be just as big a part of the fun of the game as anything else, not to mention keeping your opponents happy, I could rattle off a bunch of posts about "the best" way to set your army up, but maybe your opponent just wants a fun game with plenty of hilarious moments and lots of give and take.

Stouty
09-06-2008, 21:15
oh and since when were tactics solely about winning and "the best" combinations? tactics can be just as big a part of the fun of the game as anything else, not to mention keeping your opponents happy, I could rattle off a bunch of posts about "the best" way to set your army up, but maybe your opponent just wants a fun game with plenty of hilarious moments and lots of give and take.

The OP asked why everyone seems to pick the tenderiser, people responded with good reasons, so don't get up on your soap box to tell us that we're all evil powergamers trying to ruin the game and spoil your fun. We're just giving him answers to his question.

Oh and the tactics for having fun in a game, just so it's here, is to bring beer or other refreshments and to stop taking everything so seriously. That includes getting worked up because you lost to something you think is unfair.

Anyways, he's playing ogres. Most hardcore ogre lists are still only a bit better than other armybooks' "**** around and see what happens" lists.

Smeg it, if you're curious about the thundermace go for it, I hear these days it's okay to be bi-magicweapon-curious, you might win big, you will screw up bad. Personally I think the best alternative to the tenderiser is the standard GW, points saved are points well spent.

Malorian
09-06-2008, 21:40
seems my point that the thundermace is also a great weapon has gone unheeded.... you dont ALWAYS have to use the special attack, if your opponent has no characters or refuses the challenge (as is the sensible option when there is only a unit champion) the tenderiser is NO better than the thundermace in it's standard mode....

There is one HUGE difference: the point cost. If you just use the thundermace as a great weapon because you don't want to take the risk you've just eliminated the reason why you take it in the first place and paid a bucket full of points for a plain great weapon.

If nothing else, the thundermace scares the champians out of combats.

kyussinchains
09-06-2008, 21:42
The OP asked why everyone seems to pick the tenderiser, people responded with good reasons, so don't get up on your soap box to tell us that we're all evil powergamers trying to ruin the game and spoil your fun. We're just giving him answers to his question.

Oh and the tactics for having fun in a game, just so it's here, is to bring beer or other refreshments and to stop taking everything so seriously. That includes getting worked up because you lost to something you think is unfair.

Anyways, he's playing ogres. Most hardcore ogre lists are still only a bit better than other armybooks' "**** around and see what happens" lists.


I was actually adressing the person who said this forum wasnt 'warhammer fun' it was 'warhammer tactics' I was trying to point out that the two aren't mutually exclusive.

and not getting worked up about losing wasn't my point either, I dont care if I win or lose at all, but losing to an army which is tuned to perfection is a bit on the boring side... in fact I think winning with such an army is a bit boring too, of course that's just my opinion.

I agree that the tenderiser is mathematically the better of the two choices, it's a no brainer against some armies (other ogres, minotaurs) but I'd save the points and go for a regular GW against skaven, or even a brace of handguns. But it's not better by overly much, and I can say from experience that your opponent gives the tyrant much more respect when he knows there's a mobile stone thrower on the loose.

I also agree ogres aren't the easiest to abuse, but a bit of variety is always nice

kyussinchains
09-06-2008, 21:50
There is one HUGE difference: the point cost. If you just use the thundermace as a great weapon because you don't want to take the risk you've just eliminated the reason why you take it in the first place and paid a bucket full of points for a plain great weapon.

If nothing else, the thundermace scares the champians out of combats.

of course there is the points issue, but the tenderiser is 5 points cheaper, and only has an effect against multi wound models or in challenges.... I'd have thought no sensible person would sacrifice a unit champion and take an extra +5 CR hit when they could just retire him from combat and give up his 2 attacks....

Stouty
09-06-2008, 22:57
of course there is the points issue, but the tenderiser is 5 points cheaper, and only has an effect against multi wound models or in challenges.... I'd have thought no sensible person would sacrifice a unit champion and take an extra +5 CR hit when they could just retire him from combat and give up his 2 attacks....

Usually when the unit has BSBs, poorly defended heroes and wizards they don't want you targeting because it's very good at splatting them as well. So they have a tough dilemma, let you beat the snot out of their BSB/lose a few levels of magic/lose 100-200pts OR risk letting you take lots of combat res.

So it is very useful in those sorts of situations, and the base size of ogres maxes it rather hard for heroes to avoid them.

Elf commanders will **** bricks.

Drongol
09-06-2008, 23:06
seems my point that the thundermace is also a great weapon has gone unheeded.... you dont ALWAYS have to use the special attack, if your opponent has no characters or refuses the challenge (as is the sensible option when there is only a unit champion) the tenderiser is NO better than the thundermace in it's standard mode....


Actually, in this situation, the Tenderiser is better than the Thundermace due to it being cheaper.


sure against brets, dwarfs or daemons the thundermace isnt great, but against any army with blocks of 20mm based T3 troops it's awesome, especially for the psycological effect it has on your opponent when he knows your tyrant can flatten half a unit in one go.....

Anything your Tyrant (and his supporting unit) charges should be flattened in one go anyways. Doing it 67% of the time with a big template isn't much different from simply breaking the unit and running it down.


oh and I give the siegebreaker to a butcher with the skullmantle, an extra 3 S7 attacks from my wizard? yes please!

This is the best way to utilize the Siegebreaker. It's still not completely optimal, but hey, if you're going to use it, you might as well give it to someone who could benefit from it.


oh and since when were tactics solely about winning and "the best" combinations? tactics can be just as big a part of the fun of the game as anything else, not to mention keeping your opponents happy, I could rattle off a bunch of posts about "the best" way to set your army up, but maybe your opponent just wants a fun game with plenty of hilarious moments and lots of give and take.

Tactics is not about "Hey, try this option out, it's fun and it works sometimes, tee hee!" That would be wasting one's time if one was interested in GW's ideas of tactics, which primarily works itself out at the army building stages. The OP was asking why so many people took the Tenderiser, and the answer is simple: it is the best magical weapon available to Ogres.

Fun can be had in just about any circumstance. I can have fun while having my army completely stomped by a Thorek Gunline, for example. Fun does not require certain magic items and unit combinations in order to be had--it comes on its own. Giving someone advice as to what is "fun," then, is ridiculous.

Especially in a strategy forum.

Drongol

Jagosaja
10-06-2008, 07:54
Actually it is not strategy but tactics forum.

The claim you make that Tenderiser is the best weapon is not a fact but assumption based on calculations and experience. My belief is that it is not, as much as Thundermace is not as well. Each of them has it's own uses, Tenderiser is the doom for multi-wound creatures, Thundermace is terror for blocks of average infantry. It is, however, foolish to claim one is better than the other if both are very effective, but in different circumstances. The thing is, Thundermace has high tactical value even if it does not actually do anything because it scares the **** out of the opponents with big blocks, much more than Tenderiser does in such circumstances.

And, yes, this game is meant to bring fun. It is just that for some WAAC is most fun they can get. For me, I am amused by interesting situations, fluff and imagination. Otherwise I would not need to buy models or call them Orges, Elves, etc. but use papers cut to the size of the bases and call them unit A, unit B, and such.

Mozzamanx
10-06-2008, 10:19
Umm, I think I got the answer I was looking for, and so this topic is really going off track. Cheers for the help guys

Eigilb
10-06-2008, 11:23
I know that Tenderiser seems to be far more popular, but I honestly can't see why. Most players even consider it mandatory, but it looks a bit rubbish to me- 50pts for a D3 wound weapon?
On the other hand, the Thundermace seems awesome- an exploding great weapon which can hit about 20 models with a solid hit. Yeah, it's bad if he misses, but that's what the Ironguts are there to make up for right?

Cheers for any help

If you are taking a scraplauncher(?) you already have somthing to deal with the big bloks of inf and wont need the thundermace. The scraplauncher uses big template with KB (As far as i Recall). Besides, IME not many players uses big bloks nowadays, Bloks are mandatory in some armies but the are genrally advoided if possible, IME anyway.

OldMaster
10-06-2008, 13:51
It is actually very strange that one can miss with such a weapon like the Thundermace :|

eagletsi1
10-06-2008, 15:00
How can it do that. Look in your book at the 3" template diagram. I just shows 4 definates and 4 partials. Am I missing something here.

Help me understand.

Lord Aries
10-06-2008, 15:11
I run mine with the greedyfist, ironfist, heavy armor, and normal weapon. that gives him a 2+ save in CC. Combined with +1 Toughness, and warpstone for the 5+ save, he is tough. I use him to neutralize the enemy characters, and or just kill infantry. He is good enough at killing infantry, so I make sure he doesn't die. After casting gut magic on him, you can make him t7, or regenerate. Not many things, including a stardragon can kill him easily once you have those going.

I would agree with the brace of handguns, they are mandatory IMO.

pkain762
10-06-2008, 22:55
tenderiser hands down... have you ever seen any general kill the great unclean one in one round of CC? well a tyrant with a tenderiser can do that.... i killed the GUO in one round with a tenderiser..... did 4 wounds and d3 ended up wounding 11 times..... and he was dead and my tyrant was still standing..... wounded severely due to the puss from the GUO hahaha but he was dead ..... a 300 pt tyrant killed a 600 point greater deamon......

a thundermace....... i would have missed and been killed.... ran away then my general is dead or running along with the ironguts

but if you honestly like the thundermace take it..... and if it works for you take it... but honestly..... the tenderiser has never let me down

kain

guillaume
10-06-2008, 23:17
to the OP.

I've used both.

The thundermace is fun when it whacks, but I had it fail, and it really exasperating.

The tenderiser is my first choice, and i always feel it is completely wasted when I am hitting some regular troop: D3 wounds at st7...phew so what

However the tenderise has come in handy against all cavalry and chariot.

Most lately it has made my day. Picture this.

2250 against the new daemons facing a khorne horde.

turn 1 my opponent moves his bloodthirster flanked by large units of blood hounds
my turn: i do nothing
turn 2: the bloodthirster charges my tyrant: challenge ...combat:

he takes 4 wounds out of me.
My reply: 2 wounds with the tenderiser, which became 2 and 3 wounds...pfttt went the daemon....

ahahaha! It was absolutely epic.

So, you might also find that the choice between the tenderiser and the thundermace comes down to how many points you can squeeze in. Sometimes you just cant afford those 5 more pts for the thundermace.

Grogugluk
10-06-2008, 23:49
Seems that a GUO w/ Trappings should do better than die in one turn haha.


Now you got me all afeared I'm gonna play an OK player next couple weeks.


Lets see... 5 attacks 3.33 hits

to wounds 2.22 wounds.


Then the GUO gets a 5+Ward save and a 4+Regen Save. So thats around umm .75 wounds on average on the GUO. Multiplied probably average 1.5. I'll take it.


Though the GUO doesn't fair to well back offensively. But guess I'm not as scared as I was unless I'm doing the math wrong. Never played against ogres.

pkain762
11-06-2008, 01:11
he didn't have the regen i don't think... and if he did... he still missed the saves... it was just a huge amount of awesomeness.....

kain

Jagosaja
11-06-2008, 07:53
I do not know if you are taking into account one thing about Tenderiser which is that it does D3 wounds on multiple wound models, not on units. It is clearly stated that it does D3 wounds on a model, so if it wounds a single wound model, those extra wounds are not being inflicted. As one will not see entire multiple wound armies, Tenderiser is not as effective as presented here. Sure it can do massive damage to Characters and Monsters, but not against many other things.

Drongol
11-06-2008, 12:31
I do not know if you are taking into account one thing about Tenderiser which is that it does D3 wounds on multiple wound models, not on units. It is clearly stated that it does D3 wounds on a model, so if it wounds a single wound model, those extra wounds are not being inflicted. As one will not see entire multiple wound armies, Tenderiser is not as effective as presented here. Sure it can do massive damage to Characters and Monsters, but not against many other things.


Interesting. After reading the entry for the Tenderiser on pave 62 of the Ogre Kingdoms book (under the heading "Tools of Destruction") I'm not finding it. In fact, I'm seeing a sentence that says "A model wounded by the Tenderiser (after saves, etc) loses not one but D3 wounds."

Does your copy of the OK Army Book have some sort of rules change to this, or am I just reading this sentence incorrectly? You see, I think "A Model wounded by the Tenderiser (after saves, etc) loses not one but D3 wounds" means that, should you hit a single-wound model with the Tenderiser, it technically does D3 wounds to it.

This only matters in a challenge, of course. Am I reading something wrong here? No words mean something other than what they've always meant? Is my copy of the OK Army Book outdated?

Drongol

Jagosaja
11-06-2008, 12:51
Those are the words, but I am saying that against normal R-N-F troops with 1 wound per model, without challenges, Tenderiser may inflict max number of wounds equal to the number of attacks, while Thundermace may inflict many more.

And yes, one would benefit in challenge, I agree, all I am saying is that Tenderiser is limited in usage, as much as Thundermace is.

Drongol
11-06-2008, 17:55
Those are the words, but I am saying that against normal R-N-F troops with 1 wound per model, without challenges, Tenderiser may inflict max number of wounds equal to the number of attacks, while Thundermace may inflict many more.

And yes, one would benefit in challenge, I agree, all I am saying is that Tenderiser is limited in usage, as much as Thundermace is.

I'm pretty certain everyone understands your point. It's not anything new or difficult to grasp.

Drongol

AlmightyNocturnus
12-06-2008, 05:51
Tenderizer for the win (or just not to lose so badly):cool:
Thundermace for the laughs (with misses or hits):D

Almighty Nocturnus