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View Full Version : any tactics for taking down skaven with the new daemons?



The_Dark_Lord
08-06-2008, 18:02
iv played a few games against skaven and have come out with anything but a win, iv come pretty close a couple of times but just cant face their overwhelmingly big units and how many there are. iv tried small units myself, big units, medium sized but still i am foiled by their numbers. any help would be greatly appreciated.

Razhem
08-06-2008, 18:20
What sort of lists are you using? That would give some insight.

The_Dark_Lord
08-06-2008, 18:41
well the last 2k one i did i used the following list (i think)

Lord:
Kairos Fateweaver

Heroes:
Blue scribes
herald of nurgle on palanquin with Nurgles rot, pit of slime
herald of nurgle on palanquin nurgles rot pit of slime

Core:
2 units of 10 Plaguebearers
1 unit of 10 bloodletters
2 units of 10 horrors

special:
3x screamers
3x screamers

rare:
5 flamers?

i cant really remember but that is pretty close to what i used

lokigod
08-06-2008, 19:22
well the last 2k one i did i used the following list (i think)

Lord:
Kairos Fateweaver

Heroes:
Blue scribes
herald of nurgle on palanquin with Nurgles rot, pit of slime
herald of nurgle on palanquin nurgles rot pit of slime

Core:
2 units of 10 Plaguebearers
1 unit of 10 bloodletters
2 units of 10 horrors

special:
3x screamers
3x screamers

rare:
5 flamers?

i cant really remember but that is pretty close to what i used

couple of things
1. First off way too many points in lords and hero's.... If your going magic its all or nothing with the daemons.
2. pb really function best at 15 with a herald with slime trail and nv
3. bloodleters work best at 12 models or 2 ranks of 6
4. you have no combat potential at all...... gets some flesh hounds and or blood crushers
5. Even if this is points denial you need some kind of speed bumps like nurglings so you get 6 nice phases of magic.
6. last but not least and I'm 13-1-0 with new daemons..... GD are not where it's at 4 heralds bulks your army and you dont lose a quarter of your points too a lucky cannon shot!

Tuch
08-06-2008, 19:22
To me it seems like you are trying to go total magic but aren't fully committed to it. If this is the case swap the Heralds for all Tzeentch and get more horrors instead of Bloodletters and Plaguebearers.

If not....
Drop Karios and one of the Heralds of Nurgle for 2 Heralds of Tzeentch (maybe on Chariots maybe not). Combine the Plaguebearers into one unit, then use the rest of the points to get some Hounds or something.

Also 2 units of 3 Screamers even if combined on the same unit(s) is not many attacks on a horde army. Maybe make one unit of 5 or so and then pick up an extra flamer, 6d6 missile attacks could lay down the hurt even if you botch some of the rolls.

*Lokigod beat me to about the same answers.*

Xzazzarai
08-06-2008, 19:28
One word: Fear.

The_Dark_Lord
08-06-2008, 20:21
thanks a lot guys, il see how i fair in the next battle :D

Razhem
08-06-2008, 20:50
Also, as the skaven player that I am, you need more pure destructive melee, plaguebearers are great anvils, but there's nothing in the skaven army that really needs to be baited into them (except maybe censer bearers). Daemonetes can carve a bloody swat trough them to a certain extent, flamers are a good choice, either bloodcrushers or Fiends will serve you well.

Against ratmen you need volume of attacks, not strength, main reason why bloodletters won't do much for you unless they hit a flank.

A ratmen's weakness is his back and his flanks, speed is the rey there. Hounds are another great choice to add to this along with seekers. Screamers I don't think will serve you too much against ratmen except to kill of a couple of weapon teams in one turn, so it depends on your opponent's tendency for artillery.

Also think how much you want to dedicate to magic. A force with all core being min units of horrors with your specials and rare's being the speedy elements of Khorne and Slanesh should be able to give the ratmen a few scares.

I'd also recomend to swap out the nurgle heralds in favor of Tzeentch heralds on chariots (destroy flanks) or Khorne heralds on juggernaut (will rip a unit to shreds if charging with hounds or bloodcrushers).

Keep in mind all this advise is useless if you don't want to use a unit or really want to use another, so if that is the case, it would be better to know what forces you can count with and don't want to be without.

Has for spells on Fateweaver, get the wolf hunts, the one that gives terror to a fear causing unit (when you force various units to take terror tests every turn, it will start screwing with his lines), the one of 3d6 strength 3 impacts and in general any other utility spell or mass horde destruction spell that you can think would be useful.

W0lf
08-06-2008, 22:06
Daemonettes.

Fast and they come into their own vs T3 4+ save troops. Its their niche.

theunwantedbeing
08-06-2008, 22:39
You'de do well to drop the special character's compeltely.
(feel free to shoot me for saying this..I know it's such a rediculous statement these days to not include a special character or 3 in your list)

Kairos cant kill a thing in combat.
Neither can the blue scribes...and the enemy will only be casting 2-3 spells a turn anyway, which will be shredding what little troops you own so they seem to have no benefit whatsoever.

Your unit's are also absurdly tiny....any combat ability you have over your opponent is negated by the sheer weight of numbers skaven will have over you.

More daemonic infantry, ditch the special character's and get some flesh hounds instead of flamers and screamers.

Shamfrit
09-06-2008, 00:43
Way way way way way way too small.

I cannot express that enough. Enough an SAD Skaven army expending full points on Jezzails would still Outnumber you (perhaps a slight exaggeration, but you get my meaning.) Having been at the brutal end of a Daemon Army, both magical and combat orientated, I can treble the Flesh Hound recommendation, they're disgustingly good, 3+/1+ leaving a 6+ save on clanrats and ripping through pretty much everything in an army, as well as good US and speed....wow, they're good.

Flamers also, as much as I despise their very existence, can knock out a unit a turn through panic alone, which as you should know, is about the time the Skaven player starts swearing...alot.

The_Dark_Lord
09-06-2008, 10:19
thanks again everyone


Keep in mind all this advise is useless if you don't want to use a unit or really want to use another

i really love every unit and want to use them all :D so this is not useless advice:)

Dark_Mage99
09-06-2008, 13:43
Perhaps we could discuss the tactical approach to taking down a vast horde as well as the units he should take. It's all dandy suggesting units, but ultimately you've got to dismantle his lines (and a force stretching from end to end can be quite intimidating.)

The_Dark_Lord
09-06-2008, 17:24
(and a force stretching from end to end can be quite intimidating.)

maybe not only from end to end, but from end to end TWICE :p

Razhem
09-06-2008, 17:33
Perhaps we could discuss the tactical approach to taking down a vast horde as well as the units he should take. It's all dandy suggesting units, but ultimately you've got to dismantle his lines (and a force stretching from end to end can be quite intimidating.)

Good call.

Dark Lord, what list does the skaven player usually use? I mean, we are all expecting a horde, but does he use a lot of Skryre shenanigans? Have a liking for Pestilens? A combined arms approach? How much magic?

Without knowing this, the first couple of suggestions are to use your expendable troops to cover your hammers advance, it's better to take a warplightning to the face with horrors or plaguebearers that with your priced special and rare slots.

Try to get behind him as quick as posible with rank negating forces, seekers, tzeentch heralds on chariots and all greater daemons except of Nurgle excel at this. Nothing gets a skaven player more nervous than rank negating critters frolicking around the back and flanks. To acompany this, it's high priority to take down weapon teams, Jezzails (forcing a terror check on this guys tends to be more than enough most times) and the cannon, so a unit or 2 of furies have a very clear mission.

Skirmishers will already have a bad enough time against fear and terror, and except for poisened weapon gutter runners, none should be a menace to anything that you might plant in the rear excet for furies.

The_Dark_Lord
09-06-2008, 20:21
ye cheers. he does usually go with a hell of a lot of weapon-fire. mostly clan rats with a few units of slaves either flank, and some jezzails on each flank, and a warp-lightning cannon here and there, rattling guns - loads, sometimes he has plaguesensors, and a few of those plaguebearer skaven (forgotten their names)

decker_cky
09-06-2008, 20:39
I'd go with the advice everyone's given, but take it further. Set a limit on the points you'll put in characters at 800. Does Kairos really help you that much more than a twin headed LoC, which can actually threaten skaven flanks? But like everyone said, you need way more models to actually compensate for the cheap skaven numbers.

txamil
09-06-2008, 23:36
What do you do with the screamers?

Dark_Mage99
10-06-2008, 00:01
Units such as rat swarms are brilliant at taking down (or at the very least holding up) big critters like greater daemons, and since they skirmish, they make excellent rear-protectors. When high toughness is the main defence, masses of poisoned attacks are pretty deadly. Needless to say it's good to watch out for these guys when you are threatening his ranks.

I think against an army like Skaven, furies will be better than screamers because there aren't that many heavily armoured things you're going to come up against. And as has been mentioned, furies will have a mission on their hands: trying to take out as many weapon teams as possible. The only downside is ratling guns auto hit, so standing and shooting with them is pretty deadly. Other units like Jezzails should be able to be taken out by furies though, and the cannons have to flee as soon as you charge, and shouldn't rally again. A cheap unit of minimum furies will be more than enough to destroy a cannon if it all works out.

decker_cky
10-06-2008, 00:28
I dunno....skaven are a big tightly packed battle line. Screamers can take out lots of units, including weapons teams etc.. It depends on terrain, etc., but I think skaven are one of the ideal armies for screamers in general.

fubukii
10-06-2008, 04:01
I have been playin skaven for a long time, so i guess i will just tell you things i would look out for when i play vs daemons with my skaven (it may help you)
THe normal 2k list i run is:
warlord ( cc punch and ld 10)
3 warlocks ( zapp stuff)
4 units of 30clanrats ( cr 5)
4units of 25 slaves (redirectors)
3 units of 5 night runners ( screens/redirectors)
3 units of tunnelers ( march blockers and mage hunters)
2 WLC ( killer of multiple wound stuff)
9 jezzails ( shoot shoot)

Now when i face off against a daemon player i make sure my WLCs can shoot at either flesh hounds, greater daemons, or other big nasty rare units (blood crushers for example). I make sure the jezzails will be able to fire at the greater daemon or chariots or high pt daemons.

I normally use magic to deal with fast threats minus flesh hounds, (flamers, screamers, furies etc) then when they are gone and my warmachines are safe again, ill resort to zapping regular units.

You also have to make sure he doesnt redirect your units. I cant tell you how many games ive won beecause i parked some slaves at wierd angles in front of my enemys units just to have them charge me, i flee then i flank them next turn with clanrats. Ill list some units i dont like facing when i play with my skaven

Flesh hounds - Mr3 and 2 wounds a peice means my jezzails arent to effective vs them and id be hard pressed to cast WL on them, i normally try to get cannon shots on them or redirect their charges. So make sure he doesnt redirect these guys or throw away a worthless unit of 5 night runenrs in front of them causing you to avoid hitting his big vp in your turn. (bc in his turn he will shoot a WLC through all 5 of them probabkly wiping the unit)

Greater daemons - alot of points i try to WLC and jezzail and WL them fast to kill them asap. I dislike the keeper and the thrister the most. I highly dislike siren song as it pulls me out of formation, and i dislike how i cant kill the thrister in cc :P. remember they are large targets so not only his WLCs but his jezzzails and other shootin/magic can see through units. try to minimize your exposure to the cannons and big shooty/magic stuff
and get into combat with a unit worth more then 200 pts.

furies/screamers - fairly fragile for thier points but effective and gettin rid of my guns. id probably kill them the second i could see them. maybe take alot so its too hard to kill?

Flamers - good at lower rats ld at range not bad in cc. I dislike seein these guys against me alot, luckily they are easy to kill with warped lightning.

All in all the best advice i can give u is kill the skaven mages FAST. charge furies into his units just to kill the warlocks and other stuff like that. then h will have to beat you in the movement/combat phase which will be a uphuill struggle

The_Dark_Lord
10-06-2008, 15:36
fubuki, that is some nice detailed advice, recently iv been playing vampire counts and iv done pretty well, but im still to come up against skaven, though i did do a joint 3000 against them a few days ago (which we won!) Daemons and VC is a deadly army XD