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Lord_Crull
08-06-2008, 21:46
How is this possible? I've heard people talking about it. But The calvary base is about two and a half infantry bases. How do your fit it into ranks?

Loopstah
08-06-2008, 22:15
How is this possible? I've heard people talking about it. But The calvary base is about two and a half infantry bases. How do your fit it into ranks?

Can of worms everywhere!

EDIT:
Here's a thread I made asking the same question: http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143527&highlight=mounted
Here's another large thread on it: http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126702&highlight=rank+bonus

T10
08-06-2008, 22:55
I suggest fitting the unit together as neatly as possible. Count the unit strength of the unit by adding up the US for the rank-and-file and the character to a single value. Either work out the rank bouns by counting the character as "multiple ranks", or look at the total number of models in the unit divided by the number of collumns.

Imagine, if you will, a regiment of 6 Chaos Marauders (25 mm square) joined by a character on a daemonic steed (50 mm square). Arrange the Marauders in a 3x2 formation with the character added to the left:



M M M CC
M M M CC


You should be able to come to an agreement with your opponent as to whether this unit has a +1 rank bonus or not, even though it includes only 7 models.

-T10

Lord_Crull
09-06-2008, 01:24
But about 10mm of the calvary model hangs out and pushes the models behind it back.

So if I have three ranks and put the calvary model in I would not be able to get a thrid rank as the extram base would push one infantry model out halfway.

Spirit
09-06-2008, 02:20
Ignore the half way, just rank ALL of the third rank up with a little "half way" between the ranks, and count your rank bonus from there as normal, the character counting as 2 rank and file models.

So 13 models and a horse commander arranged in ranks of 5 would have 3 ranks and +2 to rank bonus in combat.

Cambion Daystar
09-06-2008, 08:20
Sidenot:
It might help if you put 2 empty 20mm bases under the cavalry base, so it doesn't fall over as easily.
Put empty bases in place, rank up unit, and then place the character.

T10
09-06-2008, 09:16
You'll need to improvise anyway. The rules do not actually support models taking up space in multiple ranks or files. They deal with "models", not "slots".

To wit:

Urgat
09-06-2008, 10:43
Please, not that abomination, not again!!!!111one

Condottiere
09-06-2008, 11:02
You'll need to improvise anyway. The rules do not actually support models taking up space in multiple ranks or files. They deal with "models", not "slots".

To wit:

Now I'm confused.

Which is it - base equals equivalent amount of models, or each model, regardless how large, counts separately?:eyebrows:

T10
09-06-2008, 12:32
Neither.

The rules allow for units with a mix of base sizes but fails to address the issue in greater detail. The basic rules for determining ranks and files clearly do not take into account mixed base sizes. This leaves it up to the players to resolve the issue amongst themselves.

Feel free to come to an agreement based on the previous suggestion as publish for 6th edition. It's just as valid as your own personal preference.

-T10

EvC
09-06-2008, 12:54
Though there's no rule saying that a model can't be in the space of more than one rank or file at any one time, so playing by the easiest solution and slotting the models together as close as possible is probably best then. Note that there is a rule saying a rank must be five-models wide to gain a rank bonus, however, so you really do have to decide in advance whether the Daemonic Steed in a ranked unit example given by T10 above gives a rank bonus of +1 or not. (After all, it is five-models wide, but does not actually have 5 models...)

Lordmonkey
09-06-2008, 13:33
You'll need to improvise anyway. The rules do not actually support models taking up space in multiple ranks or files. They deal with "models", not "slots".

To wit:

That diagram looks like a depressed clown :D

While this is correct, it's a bit ugly to looks at when on the battlefield. I did once see a unit arranged as such on a scenic movement tray (daemons iirc) - the gaps between the models allowed for plenty of extra scenery, etc, and the unit looked more like a diorama than a rank and file unit.

I think it most cases it wouldn't matter how you want to go about arranging the unit, as long as you agree with your opponent what counts as what. E.g:

XXCXX
XXCXX

My 8 doods are joined by a mounted character. Since the character is in the front rank, it is 5 models wide. The back rank only contains 4 models, technically, and so does not actually count as a rank. However, for the sake of aesthetics, the unit has been arranged around him. Just be sure your opponent is aware whether or not the mounted character counts for the second rank.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
09-06-2008, 16:48
My understanding is that most people play it like it counts as being in both ranks - and thus would give a rank bonus (+1) in your example Lordmonkey.

Essentially, the rank rules are trying to emphasize the idea that "mass" and "impact" and "weight of numbers" pressing against the foe are able to swing a fight in your favor (hence the +'s to Combat Resolution for Rank Bonuses).


In the same way that "two footsoldiers" would result in that formation you showed:

XXCXX
XXCXX

X= Footsoldiers

C= Mounted Commander on barded horse, etc.


...being 100% 5-wide, 2-ranks, thus +1 to Combat Res....most people I know (and this is how it's played in Tournaments, IIRC), would agree that it's the same with the horse-mounted Commander since the impact of a charging warhorse is "effectively" the same as if there were two humans on foot charging or standing at the ready in that same area of ground taken up by the horse/rider.


Granted it's a bit abstract, but I think that's what GW (wisely) was trying to reflect with the rules published in the Chronicles book (2004, IIRC, but the last formal word by GW on the matter, so most people and places use that as official).


* note - just look at how the new Daemons book has Epidemius (50-mm Palanquin base) arranged in the unit of Plaguebearers on page 78 (of that book). He's in the standard "officially recognized by almost every player I've met" formation of:

E= Epidemius

P= Plaguebearers

PPEEPP
PPEEPP
PPPPPP
PPPPPP


Now, this formation is "6-wide" - and since everyone recognizes the 50-mm bases as counting as a model in both the first rank they are in, as well as the second one that they extend back into, the unit gets a +3 rank bonus for having 3 ranks, of at least 5-models, beyond the first (per the normal rules).

Clearly GW would not, themselves, arrange the formation for Epidemius in their brand-new book a way that they know is incorrect/not useable/etc. - IMH), thus this should be further "proof" that this is the way 99% of the planet plays it and GW themselves "play it", which is good enough for me ! ;)

Lordmonkey
09-06-2008, 17:58
I would agree Fulgrim. I think either way is perfectly fine as long as you or your opponent are aware of which way you want to play it.


Clearly GW would not, themselves, arrange the formation for Epidemius in their brand-new book a way that they know is incorrect/not useable/etc

Ha, you mean like the illegal army list in the VC book? ;)

Loopstah
09-06-2008, 18:01
Ha, you mean like the illegal army list in the VC book? ;)

The Vampire Lord with 105pts of powers?

Nurgling Chieftain
09-06-2008, 19:07
Ever counted up the "1000" point sample army in the Wood Elf codex? :p

Lordmonkey
09-06-2008, 23:44
The Vampire Lord with 105pts of powers?

Yup, or the kastellan with the cursed book

sulla
10-06-2008, 00:45
Yup, or the kastellan with the cursed book

"I've hit someone with a book before... It's sort of a weapon"... :D;):p

TheDarkDaff
10-06-2008, 09:13
To further the point about the mistake in Epidemius' placement the BRB is very clear that each rank must contain the same number of models except the rear rank. The only exception is the Slaan and they have their own rules on how they are placed.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-06-2008, 10:55
We use the ruling from the 2004 annual, p. 81.

"A character takes up the space of an equivalent number of rank and file models as their base fills. For example, a cavalry model would take up one space in the first rank and one space in the second rank of an infantry unit. These ranks still count as complete if [five] 'spaces' wide or more, whether that space is filled with a rank and file model or a character."

Lord Aries
10-06-2008, 14:47
You can house rule it however you want... and on that note you can make all your guys fly and shoot rainbows out their rear ends... theoretically.

But none of that matters. HERE is how the tournament rules aficionados handle this situation. I play in many GTs and INDY GTs and this is the consensus that is agreed upon.

Mounted characters can give you ranks based on what room they take up.

XXCXX
XXCXX

+1 rank bonus, even tho you have only 4 guys in the rear ranks, the character model counts as giving you the bonus, because he takes up that space.

Don't argue with it... its the rule.


Some of you, do not like how your character on a horse takes up 10mm extra behind him. Its usually OK to mount your horse on a 40mmx20mm base to make your unit look nice. TECHNICALLY this is not the rule, its not in the rules, and its not RAW. HOWEVER the 1st rule of the game is don't be a prick about rules. Even at tournaments, they make rulings based on this idea:

"what will make the game flow faster, have less problems, and be generally more fun."

If you base your rulings on that credo, you won't go wrong because you will have more fun in your games. If someone is going to be a dick about it, don't play them. Eventually, they will get the point when no one wants to play them anymore and change... or sell their army cheap- hopefully to you.