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Deus Mechanicus
08-06-2008, 22:40
Hey im an avid 40k player and has been for the past 8 years and i've only glanced at "that other game" once or twice but with a large number of players in the local gaming club beeing fantasy players as well as 40k players i thought id give it a closer look.

Truth be told i prefer the aestethic of High Elves so that's a preliminary choice. Can anyone list some pros and cons for the high elf army?

SuperArchMegalon
08-06-2008, 23:24
Pros:
Good Magic
Good Combat
Good Shooting
Good Movement
Good Variety
Good Theme Choices

Cons:
Few Numbers
Vulnerable to Shooting
Vulnerable to Fear

High Elves are a good solid book with lots of potent choices and tactical units. Being one of the most powerful books at the moment you may face people who complain before they even see your army list - though really there aren't many "cheesy" choices that you will end up taking unless you consciously want to do so.

Bretonnian Lord
08-06-2008, 23:35
Pros
Forgiving army with ASF
Lots of cool mounts like Dragons and Griffons
Powerful magic, shooting, and close combat
They can get more special and rare choices than other armies
Lots of variety
Great models

Cons
Elves only have T3
Few in number

Rubicon
08-06-2008, 23:43
Apart from being traitorous wretches unable to accept their true king, Asur are one of the most reliable armies in the game, and as close to an idiot proof army as you will get. Army wide ASF means you don't have to worry quite so much about outmanoevering, whereas LD 8 (and stubborn in some cases) means you won't be failing too many psycology tests.

On the other hand, you are toughness 3 across the board, and mainly infantry based, which means you'll get shot to pieces should your opponent be that way inclined.

Lord Anathir
09-06-2008, 03:12
Pros:
Can be very strong in any phase you wish. We dont have the points to be strong in all phases.
Good combat infantry.
Excellent star dragon.
Reliable missile support.
Lots of flexibilty option wise.
We LOOK like an army. No skirmish food foraging party (army) of ********.

Cons:
Weak Magic defense unless you are willing to invest an obscene amount of points into it
Few in numbers and very fragile
Unforgiving army due to the fragility and low number of troops. ASF doesn't cut it... It doesn't 'save' you as people think: because opponents simply wont charge you if the odds dont stack in their favour. ASF is not a magic item or a banner; your opponent KNOWS you have it, and will take that into account when he does the math in his head before he charges. (and yes, the good players do odds in their heads)
In a game where leadership means everything ld8 is not enough. Half the armies out there cause fear right across the board or have terror or other things that force psy checks. For an army as elite as high elves ld8 is not good enough and keeping your general and bsb close to the troops is vital. ld9 and rerolls on 3 infantry units is a good solid centre that can hold the enemy in place until support units counter charge.


If anything we are the MOST unforgiving army in the game. Every unit means so much and needs to fulfil its role. This is unlike armies like empire where nearly the whole army is sacrificial and they dont give a **** all if they lose a spear block or not. Remember we have the most fragile AND most expensive troops in the game. Also don't forget that we are not ItP and not even have dwarven leadership. We are not stubborn. We are not unbreakable. We do not skirmish. We have flanks to protect. We dont have many units to protect flanks with. We dont cause fear (on most stuff). Movement is everything. everything. You do the charging. You do the flanking. Dont give your opponent the initiative. M5. Don't be idle.

Because of the above reasons, HE are also one of the more satisfying armies to win with in the game: provided you build a balanced list and not dragon/magic/shooting cheese fest it out.

The army is all about movement and getting your troops in the best possible place. Dont let the idiot nubs convince you otherwise. For example.... I dont want the bret player the charge me, whether I have ASF or not. If he does, then hes done the odds in his head and taking ASF into account he will win (or else he wouldnt charge). Plus, he gets lance bonus on the charge and he gets to pick the fights.

If I do the odds in my head and I can win the fight why am I gonna sit on my ass and wait till he charges me? If my opponent does the same odds in his head and sees that I'll win if he charges, would he charge?

WhiteShoes-n-gloves
09-06-2008, 03:37
haha, good shooting, I dont think so.
They SHOULD have good shooting, but with only a few shooting units, they really arnt.
1.bolt thrower: perhaps this is what u meant by good shooting, they are good, but compared to what people call a "shooting army" these days, theyre really just some back up.
2. archers: these are over priced for the shots you get, they are maybe only worth there points becasue they have ASF.
3. sea gaurd: prboly ok now, but only because they can fight quite well, but with only bows, bah, S3, nothing.
4. Shaddow warriors: same as before, they are good because they are scouts, If your lucky they will pay for temselves by shooting a mage or just by being around and slowing the enemy.

If someone would like to prove me wrong here, please say, Id like to hear of a proper high elf "shooting" army, and i dont mean a magic army. That's different.
-Liam

Kahadras
09-06-2008, 11:00
Pros -

- Small army therefore easy to collect and paint.
- ASF giving you a much better chance of winning one on one combats
- Good cavalry (Dragon Princes in particular with their 2 attacks each)
- Good infantry as ASF combines nicely with Spearmen and GW wielding special choices
- Good magic phase that's support by a lot of nasty magic items
- Access to High magic which is one of the best magic laws in the game IMHO
- Good maneuverability with plenty of options for flying stuff and cavalry

Cons -

- Weak against shooting (especialy their expencive infantry)
- Expencive pointswise so are nearly always outnumbered
- Lacking in warmachines

While the cons seem fewer than the pros I'd say that the cons do have a massive impact on the way High Elves play. If you want to dominate the magic phase (for example) you'll find yourself shelling out hundreds of points. This will then have an impact on the rest of your army.

Kahadras

Mad Doc Grotsnik
09-06-2008, 11:26
Well, for the most part your absolutely no harder to kill than a weedy Gobbo, but cost several times said weedy Gobbos cost in points.

Some might say they are a forgiving army, I would disagree completely. Since you have such few numbers, you need to pick your fights carefully. Sure, Striking First gives you some kind of security against a surprise charge, but the enemy is extremely likely to outnumber you, not just in sheer numbers, but also in variety. Swordmasters are all fine and well, until someone bundles you with cheap Infantry and a Chariot. Chariot knocks out most of your fighting rank, and the Infantry block brings the static resolution. These two combined ought to see these namby pamby sword slingers stegging it in the opposite direction.

Key to High Elves is synergy. Look at your Heavy Infantry. All cost the same points, and all fulfill a different role on the battlefield. Phoenix Guard are extremely unusual, as they are highly resilient troops, but don't pack an overly powerful punch. So what do you do? Well, thats easy. Use the Phoenix Guard to pin an enemy unit in combat, and then flank them with another unit (like Cavalry, fast or heavy) to shatter said block. Best thing here, is that since the Phoenix Guard are so dependable, you don't really need to bring in the hammer unit for a turn or two, barring some bad luck.

Warmachines are the bane of High Elves and Dark Elves. So consider how you want to take them out. Shadow Warriors are a fair option here, as they can also pick off enemy ranks (5 wide ranks only need a single casualty to swing a combat in your favour..) once the Artillery is spoken for. Great Eagles are another option, if slightly more of a one shot weapon, as apart from March Blocking, they only really stand up to artillery crews. Though a lone Wizard is likely to suffer from a light pecking here and there...

You also need to know how to use the battlefield to your advantage, giving yourself favourable charge routes and lines of fire, whilst avoiding the enemies.

The biggest let down for any Elf army is always attrition. Your opponent, pretty much invariably, can either hit harder than you, is tougher than you, or has a noticable numerical superiority. So beware of what your enemy is presenting. No point taking a baited charge with your Swordmasters if it means they just get to slice up some Zombies. Better to avoid such a pointless combat and try to go for something a bit juicier.

Essentially, at the point of army design, you need to decide how your force is going to fight. If you favour creating one sided combats, then you'll need a couple of Bolt Throwers (on their own, they can comfortably strip the odd rank off, but combined fire can neuter most regiments in a single turn) plus perhaps, Lothern Seaguard should have a presence. Their dual role will get their points back. If instead, you plan on a Surgical Army, where you go after the most expensive units only, then Swordmasters, White Lions and ways of March Blocking are what I'd reccomend. Real heavy hitters, and a way to stagger your opponents advance.

And, why yes, all the things I mentioned above are a damned sight easier said than done, but then, thats why I love Warhammer!

giner
09-06-2008, 11:30
Lord Anathir does have some points, however some are wrong/half truths.

By this I mean if anybody wants good magic defence it will cost hundereds of points. HE have the bonus of being one of two armies that can get +2 to dispel, and theonly one that can do it under 2000pts games.

Second DE are currently a way more unforgiving army, as are ogres, BoC and probably the WD chaos list.

Leogun_91
09-06-2008, 13:04
Lord Anathir does have some points, however some are wrong/half truths.

By this I mean if anybody wants good magic defence it will cost hundereds of points. HE have the bonus of being one of two armies that can get +2 to dispel, and theonly one that can do it under 2000pts games.

Second DE are currently a way more unforgiving army, as are ogres, BoC and probably the WD chaos list.

Dwarf army

10 warriors 80pts

10 warriors 80pts

Runemith general with MR of Spellbinding 120pts

Thane BSB with MR of Valaya 190pts

This army is a minimalistic 470pts dwarf army with +3 to disspell so HE are not the only army that can get that disspell bonus under 2000pts.

Now back on topic,

Pros:
Fast (high movement and ASF)
Decent shooting (bad equipment but high BS)
Good Magic
Dragons (and you can have them in small games)
Quickest army to get a playable force with (you only need one core and one character)

Cons:
Fragile
expenisve (in pts)
Untrustworthy (that counts for ALL elves and not as the Highelves tries to claim "It was the other kind of elves that betrayed you so you can trust uss")

Lord Anathir
09-06-2008, 21:37
Lord Anathir does have some points, however some are wrong/half truths.

By this I mean if anybody wants good magic defence it will cost hundereds of points. HE have the bonus of being one of two armies that can get +2 to dispel, and theonly one that can do it under 2000pts games.

Second DE are currently a way more unforgiving army, as are ogres, BoC and probably the WD chaos list.

Maybe you're right. But experience tells me that I never have enough dispel dice, regardless of the +1 or +2. Taking staff means a lvl 2 has to dedicate himself to it (which means he doesnt have a ring of fury or seer to make him a decent caster). If a lvl4 takes it then he has lost his arcane slot and has to take the chance of rolling that spell with 4 dice instead of a seer or silver wand. while 4/6 are still great odds its not something I want to risk when I need beast cower's for an opponent's dragon or something along the lines.

It doesn't help that we have no rod of power/diadem, our caddies are the most expensive out there, our combat characters don't generate dispel dice, and our troops are fragile to magic missiles. Other armies have the bodies to take magic missiles in the face and save dice and scrolls for the game winning spells. However, a single magic missile will cripple or destroy one of our support units or take of a rank or two of our static combat res. Do you really want smasters to take 2d6 st 4?

I've seen people with a lvl4 with annulian crystal or the staff, a lvl2 and a bsb with the radiant gem, but then thats a ton of points that do dick all against the armies that just go with a caddie or have no magic at all like dwarfs.


I didnt count dark elves or HoC becuase they need new books desperately and shouldnt really be compared.

Point conceded on BoC and Ogres... but no battle line gets rolled up easier then high elves!

Unwise
10-06-2008, 05:20
I disagree about HE having 'good' shooting. I think that the best that can be said for them is that they have shooting capabilities. This opens up some nice options which is nice, but most armies are more shooty. I don't consider HE shooting to be better than even Orcs and Goblins, at least they have an array of warmachines.

They have enough shooting to deal decently with fast cavalry, lone monsters or the like, however they won't be stopping any decent enemy units getting into combat. They do not begin to compete with Dwarf or Empire armies in this regard.

In my thoughts:

Pros:
- Decent magic: A great lore, but very expensive mages with few magic items to help
- Passable shooting: Unimpressive, but well worth having
- Great infantry: Very killing infantry, if you can get your troops matched up with the right opponents.
- Great special characters: Good solid and cheap special characters, one is too defensive, and one is too hard to use, but the rest are great.
- Good cavalry: Great killiness on Dragon Princes, decent fast cav.
- Always Striking First opens up some tactical options. It means you can do charge redirection with proper combat units that have no intention of fleeing. You can make the enemy give their flank to your force while not being disadvantaged by letting the enemy charge you.

(Unlike what others say, I think that for Always Striked First to be used to its fullest requires some tactical forethought. It can be used as a 'saftey net' but I think that using it for that alone is short sighted)

Cons:
- Can dish it out, but can't take it. Especially vulnerable to shooting and magic.
- Expensive troops mean you will be outnumbered.
- You cannot win a magic/shooting battle, as you cannot absorb casualties.
- A decent portion of your armylist is overpriced (like most armies) and will never be used.

HE are often refered to as a tactically varied army that can be offensive or defensive etc. In reality I find them to play in a very offensive manner, they cannot weather a few rounds trading missile fire before starting to close with the enemy. I do not believe they are as versitile as GW would like us to believe.

Scallat
10-06-2008, 07:44
Something that hasn't been mentioned but which is a significant pro for high elves. They have good special characters. Korhil and Caradryan can find a place in almost any army to add a bit of punch to any unit. And of course Tyrion and Teclis are as powerful as you would expect.

Armilthuan
10-06-2008, 09:43
High elf Magic is neither good, nor bad. It's precise. High elves can wield them both like a scalpel.

Your shooting is reliable. It will not go 'SPLODE! in your face. Therefere, lacking the power of the 'splode machines, they need to be used in a slight bit more unusual way. Stripping ranks and hampering/killing support units, as well as dealing wounds to big nasty monsters is key.

Your magic can be shaped in the way you want it. The 'power' has been decreased a bit by the changes brought to our magic items, but it is still as shapable as you'd like. To name a few magic items that give your High elf magic purpose: Book of Hoeth, Seer and my personal favourite, The Trickser's Pendant.

High elf movement should be swift and decisive. You must know what you are doing and concentrate on one part of your opponents battle line to gain local superiority. Otherwise, you will get the full attration of your opponent on part of your army, or even worse your whole army and it will crumble faster than a big regiment of skeletons. Flank charges are the bane of ASF.

winkypinky
10-06-2008, 10:40
Cons:
You have to think outside the box to make a competitive army. And you will not be able to do so with most fantasy tournaments having heavy restrictions to the DoW/Albion section.

Pro:
With DoW/albion you can make some pretty sick 20+pd armies that are hard to crack with multiply, multi wound and high toughness unbreakebel units making up the core of the list. And some pretty hefty healing magic to suport them.
(think vamps, just better)

Condottiere
10-06-2008, 10:52
Cons:
You have to think outside the box to make a competitive army. And you will not be able to do so with most fantasy tournaments having heavy restrictions to the DoW/Albion section.

Pro:
With DoW/albion you can make some pretty sick 20+pd armies that are hard to crack with multiply, multi wound and high toughness unbreakebel units making up the core of the list. And some pretty hefty healing magic to suport them.
(think vamps, just better)

You mean because of 2 core, 6 elite and 4 rare slots? And filling them up with DoW and RoR regiments, plus Truthsayer?

winkypinky
10-06-2008, 11:22
You mean because of 2 core, 6 elite and 4 rare slots? And filling them up with DoW and RoR regiments, plus Truthsayer?

something along this: (should fit in around 2.25k, and 3 "lord" lvl casters can dish out some serious punishment/protection in the magic phase)

Archmage: lvl 4, steed, ring of fury, seerstaff, dispel scroll.

Dragon mage: lvl 2, guardian phoenix, silverwand.

Truthsayer.

10 archers.

10 Seaguard: Musician, shields.

14 White lions: MSC, banner of sorcery.

2*5 Dragon Princes: Musician

3*Fenbeast.

2*Great eagle.

danleo
12-06-2008, 21:11
I am getting confused with High Elves. There seems to be two contradicting schools of thought. People say that HEs are good for beginners as they are very forgiving and fool-prrof whereas others say they are very unforgiving and require expert handling to be effective. I am interested in starting a HE army but the two totally different views sort of worry me.

Bretonnian Lord
12-06-2008, 21:25
I think last edition HE were very hard to play for a beginner. Fragile, few in number, and only moderately hard hitting... basically, the only build that could win was a cavalry or mage heavy list. And the infantry just plain out sucked for their points cost.

This edition they are much more user friendly. ASF means that even if you fail the charge (something which was crucial last edition) you'll still strike first and do hefty damage to the enemy. HE also got much better infantry (stubborn, ASF strength 6 white lions and 2 attack swordmasters? Yes, please!) and of course, the almighty (and rightly feared) Star Dragon. They're fast, hard hitting, and will almost always attack first, both a formidable defense and offense.

That being said, they are not invulnerable: the majority of their army have bad armor saves (like 4+ or 5+) and their characters only have T3, which forces you to buy some decent magic protection for them. They're also still going to be outnumbered most of the time, but this disadvantage is somewhat mitigated by the new bonuses.

So, all that being said: they are probably somewhere in between a beginner's and expert's army. It might take a few games for you to get the hang of them, but you'll probably catch on a lot faster than say, if you started out as Dark Elves or Tomb Kings.

OldMaster
12-06-2008, 21:26
I do not understand how palying skill matters in an army like High Elves :\
In the end, it doesn't even matter if you get charged or not!
High Elves are the most fightiest/most shootiest/most magical army there is :\
Though they rarely are effective in all those three aspectis at the same time, they pull it out far better than other armies.
ASF for the WHOLE army is just... ridiculous. iIt's not worse then having your whole army have Regeneration or something >.>

danleo
12-06-2008, 21:41
How does a HE army fare in, say 2000pts battle without the star dragon? It seems to me that the dragon is the main powerhouse within HE armies. Is it almost a necessity to include a star dragon in a large battle to have a good chance at winning?

Limenix
12-06-2008, 21:43
Let's begin by saying "I HATE HE:evilgrin:"

Ok.
Got that out of my system.

HE are all + and NO - .
At least thats how they are played here in Greece.
They may be few in number but they don't need anymore troops
on the table.With a Nasty Dragon , 2x6 Dragon Princes and 1-2 chariots
looking down on the opponent they can wipe the floor against any army.
Even an empire/dwarf gunline can not shoot at all of these targets , and when they hit you , it will be like a ton of bricks.
I'm just waiting quietly in the dark with my Druchii for another month or two
and then i'm going to make them pay in blood for all the insults the Asur
inflicted on the sons of Nagaroth .... (got a little carryed away didn't i?;))

OldMaster
12-06-2008, 21:46
Not for an inch.
"I HATE HE!!!"

Greece is just like Holland, seriously....

"Oh, you want to start with Warhammer! That's great, which army?"
"uuuh, I think High Elves! :D"
"-.-... right.."

Bretonnian Lord
12-06-2008, 22:40
How does a HE army fare in, say 2000pts battle without the star dragon? It seems to me that the dragon is the main powerhouse within HE armies. Is it almost a necessity to include a star dragon in a large battle to have a good chance at winning?

No, you can get plenty of HE armies that are very strong with no monsters at all, so it's not a necessity to include a Star Dragon. However, the Star Dragon + Dragon Princes and Chariot list is probably regarded as the most competitive HE army out there.

Prince Facestab
12-06-2008, 22:43
To answer Danleo's first question, I would say that they are forgiving of relatively simple tactics, unforgiving of mistakes. To clarify, you don't really have to be a tactical expert to do acceptably well, you just have to make sure that your flanks are safe, you get the right units fighting each other, etc, and things turn out just fine. If you make a MISTAKE, though, if you allow units to be redirected or flank charged, High Elf effectiveness goes down very quickly.

You do have the tools to prevent this from happening, but it can get pretty tense, what with the enemy having about 1.5 times as many units as you do.

To answer your second question, star dragon is a tourney build/extremely hard choice. There is another one, which involved Teclis and dragon princes. But a High Elf army without either of these can still do pretty well, and is more fun to boot (at least in my opinion)! I personally run a 5th edition style list, with no more than one of each elite type, a few blocks of spearelves, archers, and seaguard, and, of course, eagles and bolt throwers.

In the end... I'm not entirely sure that I recommend High Elves for a new player. They are easy and fun to paint, and they perform will, but ASF does cause them to play differently from other armies, so it might be hard picking up a second army. Still, they are an army with great combat ability, darn good magic, and... acceptable shooting, and look great on the field! I say get them!

danleo
12-06-2008, 23:28
Facetab's remark on HE being easy to paint has reminded me of another contradicting opinions that I've been hearing. There is a group of people who says HE are easy to paint and then there are people who say HE are one of the toughest to paint (my local GW guy included). This seems strange because people tend to agree on the painting difficulty for other armies (e.g Lizardmen = easy, Bretonians = hard, etc).

exsulis
12-06-2008, 23:45
One thing i'll say is playing very defensively with a HE is not the way to go. And would people stop calling them fragile!! They are not any more fragile than half the other armies in the WH universe.

Pros:
ASF it is really annoying.
They're fast M5 infantry, and M8 cav is nothing to scoff at. Try it with a BSB in a chariot, and that one banner. A flying unit since not every army has one.
High WS for some reason people like to ignore this but with units like PG, SW, and WL, it brings the pain.
Decent shooting
Magic;The HE have it in spades, it is both offensive, and defensive. oh no, I can't bring enough scroll cadies is not a valid argument for their magic being subpar. They have access to 9 lores of magic.
A couple under costed units.
Crazy powerful heroes with dragons.

Cons
Few in number though I've seen a few HE armies outnumber Dwarves.
Some units are expensive.
Not enough shooty units for a shooty army.

Middle ground

Infantry doesn't have great saves (5+) on average but it is normal for light infantry.
Cav has 2+ in some cases while a certain hero has a 0+ which gets annoying.
5 shooty units 3 of which can do alright in CC.
A scout unit that has a nice BS.
The single Forester unit that gets +1 defense to shooting.
Decent leadership(8) compared to the rest of the fantasy armies out there.

Painting can vary depending on the "how." If you paint them white then it could be considred hard, or just prime white, and call them done. So it is rather subjective.

Deus Mechanicus
19-06-2008, 00:20
Would you say that High Elves are a competative army choice?

Unwise
19-06-2008, 02:39
Would you say that High Elves are a competative army choice?

Yes I would. No more than that though. The 'omg they asf!' has worn off a bit now and I think that most people see them as competative but not overpowered.

My HE feel as if they are fighting an uphill battle against, Dwarf, Empire, Lizardman, Daemon or VC armies. Against other armies I remain pretty confident though. It is far from rock/paper/scissors though, I have a pretty even win/loss ratio vs every army.

Deus Mechanicus
20-06-2008, 00:13
What would you say the overall powerlevel is compared to the newly released armies (like vamps, daemons) and the older armies.

Mozzamanx
20-06-2008, 10:52
I'd say they are a teensy tiny bit above the older books, but not enough to unbalance them. In comparison to VC and Daemons, they're just dandy.

isidril93
20-06-2008, 15:47
the pros:
small army, few in numbers
amazing at combat
really good magic
ok shooting
3 of the best fighting infantry
dragon princes are awesome
spearmen are really reliable
shaodw warriors shoot but are really good fighters for a unit of archers
high leadership
LOADS of magic items

the cons

t3
small, no numbers
low as

most of you may have noticed that i put small or little army in both cotagories. this is because since they are small they dont suffer from as many panic tests etc...

look at goblins and how people say how bad their ld is (im not really critising them so PLEASE dont argue with me) but thery are a horde. now if high elves were a horde they wouldnt be elite which is one of the thing people collect them for.

as for no tactics i think people are complaining for nothing. im still gonna try to get a flank attack with my chariot. im not gonna let my opponent charge my swordmasters with his knights if i have the chance cos even though they have asf its not gonna make any difference anyway except i dont have to face lances. im not gonna let some one flank my swordmasters if i could.