PDA

View Full Version : Wraiths as a Regiment



Trunks
23-10-2005, 19:15
Simple discussion here . . .

Is there any reason that Wraiths should not be brought back into the Vampire Counts army as a regiment of their own instead of a hero choice?

They could be a rare choice (VC don't have a huge rare choice selection anyway), and have a 5-20 regiment size.

I don't think you'd even need to make them 0-1.

I almost never see people field Wraiths these days. I would myself if I had the rest of my VC army (want Graveguard, have yet to find suitable models).

You could even keep Wraiths as a Hero Choice still too.

samw
23-10-2005, 19:23
They'd be too good. They can't be hurt so your opponent would get 6 (champ) ST5 attacks on himself. Most infantry, even starting on +2 combat res (standard which I assume the wraiths would lack and outnumber) would liekly lose combat. And if they win it'll only be by a point or two. So what? 1 or two wraiths die since you can't kill any in C2C. Cavalry would be completely negated in all forms (except grail knights/demon cav since they have magic attacks) and the few heros that pack a magic weapon over a G-weapon these days would find it hard to make much of an impression solo, or even if backed by a big friendly unit. On top of this you have a massive terror causing unit able to possibly autobreak fear causers.

In short, ethereal rank and file would be too powerful. Give them same stats and a demonic ward, even one as high as 4+, and I might reconsider, but currently no.

DeathMasterSnikch
23-10-2005, 19:34
I loved wraith units.

But I'd have to say unit size 5-10 and possibly 0-1 rule. Today isn't the hero hammer of old where every unit had a character with a hefty magic weapon :p

Still wraiths wouldnt be the same if they weren't ethreal so I think that should stay...

Slappy
23-10-2005, 19:40
They're 90 points a piece people.

DeathMasterSnikch
23-10-2005, 19:47
They are also a hero choice.

If we are talking about making them into a rare unit we might as well make them different points cost with lower stats etc.

samw
23-10-2005, 21:30
Well yes, I don't think anyone was suggesting you do the equivalent of putting 20 heroes in a single regiment! Half the wounds first of all, then take away the points allowed for the ablity to take magic items or act independently and you get to a not unreasonable figure really.

cardboard_armour
23-10-2005, 21:39
I always figured wraiths to be a waste of time until I saw the Wraith Bomb

Wraith with Dark Hand of Death

Wanders around in a unit then breaks off to sort out war machine crews, wizards and skirmishers.

Without magic weapons to deal with it he justs keeps dealing out hits every turn. You're only hope is that he does no damage and you beat him on outnumber.

Makes a mess of unprepared armies.

Angelripper
23-10-2005, 21:44
How about this:

Wraithregiment

M4 WS3 BS0 S3 T3 W1 I2 A1 LD7 Points: 25

Unit Size 10 +

Weapons & Armour Two handed Scythes (Great weapon)

Options
Upgrade one Wraith to Champion (+1a) *add Pointcosts here*
Upgrade one Wraith to Standard Bearer *add Pointcosts here*
Upgrade one Wraith to Musician *add Pointcosts here*

Special Rules
Etheral, Terror

Just my 2 cents

samw
23-10-2005, 21:51
Take away the possibility for standard and musician before anything else.

Keller
23-10-2005, 22:48
I always figured wraiths to be a waste of time until I saw the Wraith Bomb

Wraith with Dark Hand of Death

Wanders around in a unit then breaks off to sort out war machine crews, wizards and skirmishers.

Without magic weapons to deal with it he justs keeps dealing out hits every turn. You're only hope is that he does no damage and you beat him on outnumber.

Makes a mess of unprepared armies.

I'm not sure what you mean here, as the Dark Hand is a spell from Death Lore.

Personally, I like using a wraith, but I usually leave him out in favor of more troops. I use a few options:
1. Talon of Death - inflicts 3 (usually) S5 hits after he charges, not counting to CR. Helpful to kill off small units or shave a rank bonus off before combat.
2. Obsidian Ammy - MR and 4+ ward against magic, the onlything that can attack him? Helpful, but I generally prefer more offensive oriented gear.
3. Rod of Flaming Death - D3 S4 hits, but causes panic if you kill anything. Helpful to force lots of psych tests between it and terror.

Wickerman71
24-10-2005, 02:45
Etheral with rank bonus just sounds like a bad idea to me.

blurred
24-10-2005, 08:12
Etheral with rank bonus just sounds like a bad idea to me.

I think they would be quite awful actually. Let's say they would cost a hefty 25 points a pop. To get even a rank bonus of 1 would require a unit of 8. 200 points for a unit that would have a very restricted role on the battlefield. Small cavalry units and skirmishers would have hard time against them, but that's pretty much it. Large infantry regiments would run through them in no time. Sure terror and ethereal are nasty abilities, but these guys have a movement of 4 with no marching ability. The enemy could quite easily avoid them.

thecuckoo
24-10-2005, 08:29
If you made them skirmishers, you would remove the problem of getting a rank bonus.

Plus, it isn't quite as loonie as it sounds - A Spirit Host base looks similar to a 4x4 block of wraiths (apart from Terror and the DHW).

Why not simply allow Spirit Hosts to be upgraded (+8pts per base) to carry scythes ?

Kohhna
24-10-2005, 11:03
Yeah they should bring back wraith regiments, especially since I now have a half dozen on them and don't feild them, ever and would only consider them in games of 4K+ (I belive the Banshee is a more cost effective way of getting a simmilar effect).

Odin
24-10-2005, 11:11
The only way I could see wraiths working as a rare choice is in the same way as Banshees, i.e. you get one model per rare choice. They just don't seem like the type of being who would gather together in significant numbers.

A better idea would be to make them a better hero choice. Either make them Level 1 magic users (at a suitable extra cost), or give them a bound spell to use every turn. They were necromancers after all. This would make them a bit like Branchwraiths in a Wood Elf army - a bit of magic and a bit of close combat.

Kohhna
24-10-2005, 11:14
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2642

Thread on a simillar topic for anyone who is interested.

DeathMasterSnikch
24-10-2005, 11:25
How about this:

Wraithregiment

M4 WS3 BS0 S3 T3 W1 I2 A1 LD7 Points: 25

Unit Size 10 +

Weapons & Armour Two handed Scythes (Great weapon)

Options
Upgrade one Wraith to Champion (+1a) *add Pointcosts here*
Upgrade one Wraith to Standard Bearer *add Pointcosts here*
Upgrade one Wraith to Musician *add Pointcosts here*

Special Rules
Etheral, Terror

Just my 2 cents


NO standard or musician. 10+?! more like 5-10 slightly higher stats. maybe higher cost (30-35) pricey I know but the stats there seem low.

And whats wrong with wraiths banding together? They used to in the undead army lsit and IMO that was the peak of undead, non of that silly TK and VC stuff.

Odin
24-10-2005, 11:41
NO standard or musician. 10+?! more like 5-10 slightly higher stats. maybe higher cost (30-35) pricey I know but the stats there seem low.

And whats wrong with wraiths banding together? They used to in the undead army lsit and IMO that was the peak of undead, non of that silly TK and VC stuff.

Well, I have fond memories of that time too, but looking back, the Undead army really was a random mess of ideas taken from horror films, rather than the current focussed, themed lists.

Perhaps it's just my interpretation, but I just don't see wraiths banding together in large numbers..

Wickerman71
24-10-2005, 12:59
I think they would be quite awful actually. Let's say they would cost a hefty 25 points a pop. To get even a rank bonus of 1 would require a unit of 8. 200 points for a unit that would have a very restricted role on the battlefield. Small cavalry units and skirmishers would have hard time against them, but that's pretty much it. Large infantry regiments would run through them in no time. Sure terror and ethereal are nasty abilities, but these guys have a movement of 4 with no marching ability. The enemy could quite easily avoid them.

The only thing that hurts Ethereal units is Magic & CR. give rank bonus to a unit that your infantry blocks can't even touch (all you will get is your static CR). They will do more than stand up to them; they will smoke them. Even at a hefty 25pts/model you will find players that will do it.

DeathMasterSnikch
24-10-2005, 13:27
5-10 isn't realy large.

And what was wrong with a band of horrorfilm things? Only thing missing was frankensteins monster...

blurred
24-10-2005, 13:48
The only thing that hurts Ethereal units is Magic & CR. give rank bonus to a unit that your infantry blocks can't even touch (all you will get is your static CR). They will do more than stand up to them; they will smoke them. Even at a hefty 25pts/model you will find players that will do it.

Smoke them eh? Let's see. Suppose my unit of 25 orcs is fighting against these guys. The orcs have full command and shields = a nice price of 178 pts. Now, your unit of wraiths costs 200 points. Let's say your wraiths get the charge. You strike 4 S5 attacks. Two hits which wound on a 3+. Ok...you get lucky and kill two orcs. Combat result for wraiths = 3. Combat result for orcs = 5. Two wraiths crumble to dust. The next turn, this happens again. No wait...it doesn't, 'cause you don't have that rank anymore. In three combat rounds (two if you're just a little bit unlucky) the whole unit is...how should I put it...smoked.

Sorry, but I still think they're quite sucky. Of course someone can take a unit of 15 wraiths, but that would be 375 points (!). Elite infantry is not very good in the current edition of warhammer and these wraiths would be the ultimate elite infantry.

Btw, magic would also put these guys back to their grave very quickly. Even a small magic missile would hurt bad.

Odin
24-10-2005, 15:16
5-10 isn't realy large.

And what was wrong with a band of horrorfilm things? Only thing missing was frankensteins monster...

...and werewolves. Both of which cropped up in the Blood Bowl Necromantic team.

The problem, in my opinion, was that the Undead army just didn't feel like an army, just a lot of different ideas cobbled together.

cardboard_armour
24-10-2005, 17:02
sorry i meant talon of death not dark hand of death. easy mistake to make.

Wickerman71
24-10-2005, 19:24
Smoke them eh? Let's see. Suppose my unit of 25 orcs is fighting against these guys. The orcs have full command and shields = a nice price of 178 pts. Now, your unit of wraiths costs 200 points. Let's say your wraiths get the charge. You strike 4 S5 attacks. Two hits which wound on a 3+. Ok...you get lucky and kill two orcs. Combat result for wraiths = 3. Combat result for orcs = 5. Two wraiths crumble to dust. The next turn, this happens again. No wait...it doesn't, 'cause you don't have that rank anymore. In three combat rounds (two if you're just a little bit unlucky) the whole unit is...how should I put it...smoked.

Sorry, but I still think they're quite sucky. Of course someone can take a unit of 15 wraiths, but that would be 375 points (!). Elite infantry is not very good in the current edition of warhammer and these wraiths would be the ultimate elite infantry.

Btw, magic would also put these guys back to their grave very quickly. Even a small magic missile would hurt bad.

Yes 8 wraiths may not sound so hard but 16 is another story. A unit that costs 400pts expensive yes but no one would go with a small unit unless they where restricted too. With the right support BSB, Dance & Hellish Vigor that Unit could be cable of going though 2 to 3 full blocked up units a game. The kicker is that it would not matter much what those units are because they can not hurt the Wraiths in any way. This would also pretty much make Spirit Hosts obsolete. As a single rare choice like the Banshee it may have some potential but as a Ranked up unit no way.

DeathMasterSnikch
24-10-2005, 19:43
...and werewolves. Both of which cropped up in the Blood Bowl Necromantic team.

The problem, in my opinion, was that the Undead army just didn't feel like an army, just a lot of different ideas cobbled together.

Well why do you think Nagash was cooped up in his lair for so long? He wasn't weak at all.

He was sat there watching black and white horrofilms for inspiration.

Latro
24-10-2005, 19:50
Yes 8 wraiths may not sound so hard but 16 is another story. A unit that costs 400pts expensive yes but no one would go with a small unit unless they where restricted too. With the right support BSB, Dance & Hellish Vigor that Unit could be cable of going though 2 to 3 full blocked up units a game. The kicker is that it would not matter much what those units are because they can not hurt the Wraiths in any way.

Three words ...

Fl

ank

charge


That said, I don't like the idea of ranked-up Wraiths for fluff reasons. Wraiths, and the VC list in general, could use a bit of work, but not Wraith regiments please.

:cool:

Hywel
24-10-2005, 23:47
I'd like to see them brought back as a champion upgrade to the unit - much like priests work with cult of ulric. I do miss the days of having wraith or wight champions and it would be nice to see again. On similar logic I like the idea of chaos warriors as champions of marauder regiments, but thats a different story..

Wickerman71
25-10-2005, 00:22
Three words ...

Fl

ank

charge

Three Words

Back...At...Ya

Wraiths have M6 (standard on ethereal these days), Can March when in range of the General & Vanhel's Danse Macabre. Most of the the time it will be the Wraiths that will be picking the fight.

shadowprince
25-10-2005, 01:11
They could work like this 1 wound 1 attack champ option unit 5-10 skirmishers.

blurred
25-10-2005, 07:09
Yes 8 wraiths may not sound so hard but 16 is another story. A unit that costs 400pts expensive yes but no one would go with a small unit unless they where restricted too. With the right support BSB, Dance & Hellish Vigor that Unit could be cable of going though 2 to 3 full blocked up units a game.

As I said before, one could always take a big unit of these guys, but the cost would be absolutely horrendous. The I-have-BSB-and-spells-and-whatnot argument doesn't even deserve a reply.

Gorbad Ironclaw
25-10-2005, 07:22
A 16 strong unit of models at 25 points each, thats T3 with 1 wound and no save?

I can hear Skavens laughing already. Or Demon Legion, or Wood Elves or anyone with a few magic missiles.
Thats almost like a free 400 points.

That just sounds like a bad idea. They don't hit very hard, they don't have much static CR, they are not even that manoeuvrable(movement 6 as a ranked unit isn't fast, it's just faster than average for infantry).

All the while being way expensive and horribly vulnerable to anything that even smells of magic.

Scythe
25-10-2005, 10:05
If you made them skirmishers, you would remove the problem of getting a rank bonus.

Plus, it isn't quite as loonie as it sounds - A Spirit Host base looks similar to a 4x4 block of wraiths (apart from Terror and the DHW).

Why not simply allow Spirit Hosts to be upgraded (+8pts per base) to carry scythes ?

Heh, I'd love that, since I made my spirit hosts out of wraiths (way cooler looking as those ghosts).

Wickerman71
25-10-2005, 13:03
A 16 strong unit of models at 25 points each, thats T3 with 1 wound and no save?

I can hear Skavens laughing already. Or Demon Legion, or Wood Elves or anyone with a few magic missiles.
Thats almost like a free 400 points.

Yes against Skaven shooting they would suck like all Ethereals do, but sucking against a few armies & being dead hard against most does not support an argument of them being balanced & fair.


That just sounds like a bad idea. They don't hit very hard, they don't have much static CR, they are not even that manoeuvrable(movement 6 as a ranked unit isn't fast, it's just faster than average for infantry).

6 is fast for infantry plus the Undead movement spell face facts they can be highly mobile.


All the while being way expensive and horribly vulnerable to anything that even smells of magic.

Wow 1 weakness most unit types have a few more than that:rolleyes: