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eleveninches
09-06-2008, 13:22
When fanatics are released by a unit flying over the unit that contained them, can the released fanatics harm the flying unit, or do they move over it unaffected.

dsw1
09-06-2008, 13:38
I have just had this debate with my friend (who happens to be a N goblin player).

I would say in all fairness, if fanatics are released by flyers, they hit the flyers when they leave the unit (i.e. if a flyer gets within 8" and the fanatic is released and goes 9", it will hit the flyers).

But if the fanatics are already released, you will not be hit by the fanatic. The rules for a fanatic state that if a unit moves through, while the rules for flyers say that they move over and thus would not be hit. (I.e. If a flyer sets off a fanatic, and it lands 1" in front of the flyer, if you plan on carrying on the extra movement you will go over not through and thus not be hit).

So overall, I would say that in the spirit of the game, this would happen;

Unit of flyers gets within 8" of the unit of night goblins. 2 fanatics are released, one moves 9" and one moves 7", the one that moves 9" hits the flyers. After the hits are done and wounds counted, the flyer wish to carry on their movement. This movement will go over the fanatic and thus you will not be hit.

This way it is fair to both parties, otherwise you could release all fanatics and not get hit once (which seems totally unfair, unless you are ethreal, then that's okay).

Lordmonkey
09-06-2008, 13:54
Unit of flyers gets within 8" of the unit of night goblins. 2 fanatics are released, one moves 9" and one moves 7", the one that moves 9" hits the flyers. After the hits are done and wounds counted, the flyer wish to carry on their movement. This movement will go over the fanatic and thus you will not be hit.

The laughing man is right :)

Gazak Blacktoof
09-06-2008, 15:12
Fliers get hit by fanatics only during the fanatic's movment or if the flier lands on them. The flier will receive D6 hits in the first instance and 2D6 in the second.

Tarax
09-06-2008, 16:23
Chances are you will never see a flyer land on a Fanatic.

Flyers land when a Fanatic is released and can be hit as such. p. 25 of the O&G army book.

eleveninches
10-06-2008, 12:43
So, if a unit of screamers tries to fly over the fanatic's unit, and the fanatics are released, do the screamers get their slashing attack first or do the fanatics get their attacks first?

Gazak Blacktoof
10-06-2008, 13:08
So, if a unit of screamers tries to fly over the fanatic's unit, and the fanatics are released, do the screamers get their slashing attack first or do the fanatics get their attacks first?

<Flicks Through 2004 Annual again>

"Q. What happens if a unit of Tzeentch Screamers makes a slashing attack on a unit that does automatic hits, like a Night Goblin Fanatic?

A. Both units inflict and take damage. In the example of the Fanatic, the Screamers take D6 S5 hits and simultaneously each do a S3 hit on the fanatic."

2004 Annual, p.86, HORDES OF CHAOS.

Obviously slashing attacks are slightly different but work in the same manner.

This question seems to be answering with respect to Screamers deliberately attacking Goblin Fanatics. In the case of Fanatics moving into the Screamers I think the Fanatics hit the Screamers and the Screamers will have to purposefully move over the Fanatics as a subsequent action in order to make their own attacks at which point they'll incur the wrath of the Fanatics simultaneously as they make the slashing attacks.

xragg
10-06-2008, 13:09
So, if a unit of screamers tries to fly over the fanatic's unit, and the fanatics are released, do the screamers get their slashing attack first or do the fanatics get their attacks first?

Fanatics go first, since the screamers have to land 8" away from the unit when the fanatics are released. Then the screamers complete their flight after the fanatics have been resolved. I personally dont like this rule with flyers, but thats how it is.

Braad
10-06-2008, 13:16
I don't completely agree with Gazak's answer.
If the screamers fly to the fanatics unit, they stop at 8", like everything does. The fanatics go, and if they roll 8 or higher they damage the screamers. Then the screamers (if they still live) can elect to continue to fly over the unit of night goblins.
Since fanatics are always released at the moment the approaching unit is at the 8" line, the screamers don't get to do damage against the unit since they are still 8" away.

If the fanatic is already released and a screamer slashes the fanatic now, continue with Gazak's story.

(Darn that, beaten by xragg... I should take less time typing :p)

Gazak Blacktoof
10-06-2008, 16:18
It seems I answered the wrong question. I thought eleveninches was asking about the screamers attack the fanatic not the fanatic's parent unit.

My answer is correct its just not the answer to eleveninches' question:rolleyes:, Oops!

You are of course both correct with respect to the actual question:p.

DeathlessDraich
10-06-2008, 19:25
Fanatics against Flyers:

1) Flyers may only fly or move on the ground but not both - pg 68

2) Flyers must land when Fanatics are released

Therefore all flyers end up 8" from the unit containing Fanatics.

They cannot move after that.

Screamers will not be able to execute their Slashing attack *after* Fanatics are released.

shartmatau
10-06-2008, 19:41
what are you talking about Draich? Fanatics do not stop movement of the unit that released them. The move is halted, the fanatics movement is made and any resulting hits are resolved, then the move may continue as normal. So if the fanatic hits the screamers then resolve its hits and continue the screamers move. Which due to the slashing attack rule may double back over the fanatics and cause hits on them. Its very clear cut.

Andrew Luke
10-06-2008, 21:01
He is saying that a flyer may only make a flying move or move on the ground with its M value. Because the flyer is forced to land by the fanatic, he cannot make another flying move, as he has already flown and then landed. Not sure if thats how they'd rule at a GT, but I can see the case for it.

Cambion Daystar
10-06-2008, 22:07
He is saying that a flyer may only make a flying move or move on the ground with its M value. Because the flyer is forced to land by the fanatic, he cannot make another flying move, as he has already flown and then landed. Not sure if thats how they'd rule at a GT, but I can see the case for it.

Say what?:eyebrows:
You may continue your move after fanatics have been released. CONTINUE, as in you may finish your move. nowhere is it written that when you "land" you can't fly further

Braad
10-06-2008, 23:21
Agree with Cambion. You cannot combine a move on the ground and in the air. However, you just land, you don't do any moving on the ground.
It would be just plain silly if fanatics could stop any movement by flyers. It would be totally pointless to take them against any orc&goblin player, if you ask me, since he might just take only night gobbo's, and all your flyers are instant-death, since you know you can make the charge if he's within 8".

semersonp
11-06-2008, 00:51
"When fanatics are released by a unit flying over the unit that contained them, can the released fanatics harm the flying unit, or do they move over it unaffected."

yes, the fanatics can harm the flying unit...

no, they do not move over it unaffected...

o + g army book page 25...

'Release the Fanatics!'
Fanatics are always released when the concealing unit comes to within 8" of the enemy or vice versa. The moving unit stops immediately (fliers land)...

it goes on to say that fanatic movement is resolved and then enemy units that triggered such a release can continue moving should their general wish...

should there be any screamers remaining they may continue their flight path as their controller sees fit...


there ya go

Lord Aries
11-06-2008, 01:59
Yes, you do not loose your ability to fly when you have to stop to get hit.

DeathlessDraich
11-06-2008, 10:30
Say what?:eyebrows:
You may continue your move after fanatics have been released. CONTINUE, as in you may finish your move. nowhere is it written that when you "land" you can't fly further

Read the Flying rules carefully. See below**


what are you talking about Draich? Fanatics do not stop movement of the unit that released them. The move is halted, the fanatics movement is made and any resulting hits are resolved, then the move may continue as normal. So if the fanatic hits the screamers then resolve its hits and continue the screamers move. Which due to the slashing attack rule may double back over the fanatics and cause hits on them. Its very clear cut.

Read the Flying rules carefully before making unpleasant comments. See below**


Agree with Cambion. You cannot combine a move on the ground and in the air. However, you just land, you don't do any moving on the ground.
It would be just plain silly if fanatics could stop any movement by flyers. It would be totally pointless to take them against any orc&goblin player, if you ask me, since he might just take only night gobbo's, and all your flyers are instant-death, since you know you can make the charge if he's within 8".


"When fanatics are released by a unit flying over the unit that contained them, can the released fanatics harm the flying unit, or do they move over it unaffected."

yes, the fanatics can harm the flying unit...

no, they do not move over it unaffected...

o + g army book page 25...

'Release the Fanatics!'
Fanatics are always released when the concealing unit comes to within 8" of the enemy or vice versa. The moving unit stops immediately (fliers land)...

it goes on to say that fanatic movement is resolved and then enemy units that triggered such a release can continue moving should their general wish...

should there be any screamers remaining they may continue their flight path as their controller sees fit...

there ya go

See below**


Yes, you do not loose your ability to fly when you have to stop to get hit.

**You have omitted the flying rules in conjunction with the exact rules for Release Fanatics.

Read pg 68 again.

1) A flying move starts and *ends* on the ground. Once a flyer lands the *flying move ends*.

2) Fanatics *compels* enemy flyers within 8" to *land*. -O&G pg 25 and therefore *ends* the flying move.

Exception:
However if the flying unit declared a charge, it *must* finish its charge move and moves over the Fanatic and *not* through it - some players may dispute this because of the exact wording of the flying charge rules and the contradiction with the above.

Screamers Slashing attacks is therefore unable to affect a Fanatic when it triggers the Fanatic's release.

T10
11-06-2008, 16:54
The rules for Moving Flyers (p. 68) spells out the process involved: They are allowed a single flight move, which is described as taking off, moving and landing. There isn't room for any interpreting this differently as each flying move is "up to 20 inches".

However, in the case of released fanatics I suggest disregarding this rule: if fliers always land and end their move when they trigger fanatics, this would have somewhat strange effects on the game. Fleeing or pursuing flyers would be unable to comple their compulsory movement, chargers would come to a dead stop and so on.

In short: where a fanatic throws a fit I suggest letting it act out its quirks and get back to the proper game.

-T10

Cambion Daystar
11-06-2008, 18:26
The rules for Moving Flyers (p. 68) spells out the process involved: They are allowed a single flight move, which is described as taking off, moving and landing. There isn't room for any interpreting this differently as each flying move is "up to 20 inches".

-T10

they indeed get a single move. but the rules about fanatics let them CONTINUE their move, so it is all perfectly legal.

T10
11-06-2008, 19:20
Sure, why not.

Personally, I like to know when I am breaking the rules. That way I don't fool myself into thinking that other people will play it that way.

So I'm inclined to agree that fliers get to move further after fanatics are released, even if their move actually ends when they land.

-T10

TheDarkDaff
11-06-2008, 21:02
Just to be pedantic about it but where does it say that a fly move finishs as soon as the flier lands. All i see is that the Flier ends their move on the ground, not that being on the ground ends their move and the fanatic rules seem to allow them to take off again to complete their move.

T10
11-06-2008, 22:47
Check out the first paragraph on the rules for moving flyers. It only deals with a single take-off/fly/land.

It would be nice if it specified a total maximum move (it doesn't). It also fails to limit the number of "swoops" you can make in the remaining moves phase, though I'm sure most will agree that one is sufficient.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
12-06-2008, 12:31
they indeed get a single move. but the rules about fanatics let them CONTINUE their move, so it is all perfectly legal.


The rules for Moving Flyers (p. 68) spells out the process involved: They are allowed a single flight move, which is described as taking off, moving and landing. There isn't room for any interpreting this differently as each flying move is "up to 20 inches".

However, in the case of released fanatics I suggest disregarding this rule: if fliers always land and end their move when they trigger fanatics, this would have somewhat strange effects on the game. Fleeing or pursuing flyers would be unable to comple their compulsory movement, chargers would come to a dead stop and so on.

In short: where a fanatic throws a fit I suggest letting it act out its quirks and get back to the proper game.

-T10


Just to be pedantic about it but where does it say that a fly move finishs as soon as the flier lands. All i see is that the Flier ends their move on the ground, not that being on the ground ends their move and the fanatic rules seem to allow them to take off again to complete their move.


Check out the first paragraph on the rules for moving flyers. It only deals with a single take-off/fly/land.

It would be nice if it specified a total maximum move (it doesn't). It also fails to limit the number of "swoops" you can make in the remaining moves phase, though I'm sure most will agree that one is sufficient.

-T10

I was going to comment but that would be simply repeating what I've already said in my last post.
So..., the answer to all this is already given in my previous post.:p

Lord Snerual
12-06-2008, 12:34
I think it would be unrealistic too for the fliers to continue their flying movement after the fanatic hits, your wings are probably brused everywhere.

And the rules DO say that when you hit the ground with your fliers, their move ends. It's hard, indeed, but come on they are Night Goblins, anyone would forgive a Night Goblin if you look upon that so-mean-that-they-are-almost-cute faces.

marv335
12-06-2008, 14:04
Let me get this straight.
Flying units can't charge night goblin units that have fanatics.
Sounds ropey to me. It looks as if thats the way the rule works, but it just feels wrong.

Loopstah
12-06-2008, 14:29
Let me get this straight.
Flying units can't charge night goblin units that have fanatics.
Sounds ropey to me. It looks as if thats the way the rule works, but it just feels wrong.

Don't the fanatic rules specifically state that charging units must complete their charge move though?

Although that wouldn't apply to screamers as they wouldn't be charging.

DeathlessDraich
12-06-2008, 14:31
No, Marv. :)

1) Fliers can *declare* a charge against NG.
2) Units charging the NG unit *must* complete their charge move after stopping at 8".
3) This is different for a non charging unit.

Lord Snerual
12-06-2008, 14:40
It would be really painfull for your screamers if they couldn't finish their charge. First you wanna make a charge, you have to land, get crushed to screamer spare-ribs, and then remain on the ground not finishing your charge!:eek:

OldMaster
12-06-2008, 14:49
^ Spare-ribs can't charge anyone XD

shartmatau
12-06-2008, 14:49
But your splitting hairs at that point.
The difference between must move and continue their move is that the latter is optional. Either way you are claiming that the flyer cannot continue to fly because it has landed.

You cannot on one hand say that the move is ended.
and on the other hand say, but if its a charge the move continues as normal.

The rules you are quoting do not say anything about landing except that the fly move ends after the unit has moved to where it wishes to go and then lands. Nowhere in the rules does it make any difference to landing a during the flight (for whatever reason) and then continueing to fly only to land at the end of the desired move.

The flying rules clearly state this, flyers begin and end their move on the ground.

That statement has no bearing on flyers landing for some reason like fanatics and then continuing to make a fly move.
Furthermore, the Fanatic rules which are clearly laid out earlier in this thread specify exactly what happens to units releasing fanatics. The fanatic movement is resolved and then the unit may continue its move as normal. Its not a second move or a different move at all. It is a continuation of the original move, which for flyers is a flying move with however many inches they had left to go before the fanatics were released.

Honestly both rules for fanatics and flyers work well together. There is nothing that prevents flyers from flying as normal if they survive being hit with bowling balls.

shartmatau
12-06-2008, 15:07
And before anyone goes on to say that this is a permissive ruleset.



it goes on to say that fanatic movement is resolved and then enemy units that triggered such a release can continue moving should their general wish...


Permission granted.

Frankly this is just a bunch of wishful thinking and digging.

xragg
12-06-2008, 19:20
BRB describes normal flyer movement.

O&G describes an exception to the flyer movement, permiting flyers to continue movement after force landing due to fanatics.

Lord Snerual
12-06-2008, 19:43
Yes you are right, because the fanatic rules SAY they can continue their move, and not start a new one, they can move over te unit AFTER being hit by the fanatics (if one reaches the screamer) and then deal out their slashing attack

Cambion Daystar
12-06-2008, 19:57
Am i the only one who finds it ridiculous that flyers that aren't charging the
NG are affected in the first place?

Malorian
12-06-2008, 20:04
Am i the only one who finds it ridiculous that flyers that aren't charging the
NG are affected in the first place?

It's the same for everybody else...

Urgat
12-06-2008, 23:05
Am i the only one who finds it ridiculous that flyers that aren't charging the
NG are affected in the first place?

That's called game balance. If it wasn't so, fanatics would just be plain useless against any army with flyers. Just send them at 8" on the first turn, and watch. Awesome, heh?

Condottiere
13-06-2008, 08:49
IIRC the fluffy answer to flyers versus fanatics was that the NG regiment launched the fanatic at an optimal 45 degree ballistic interception course. The flyer didn't actually land, but in the interests of game mechanics it was assumed to do so.;)

Lord Snerual
13-06-2008, 09:31
Or a giant walked by and looked upon the tiny face of the fanatic and then looked at the flyer. Then the Giant went angry, grapped the fanatic, and threw it into the flying unit, and then (again) you will have Screamer Spare-Ribs.

OldMaster
13-06-2008, 09:37
And suffer D6 S5 hits himself :D:D

Condottiere
13-06-2008, 10:16
And suffer D6 S5 hits himself :D:D

Imagine if he stuffed the fanatic in his pants.:angel:

Lord Snerual
13-06-2008, 18:18
Then it would be 2D6 S5 hits and a red card for the greenskin player.

(the giants balls were smashed to, I don't know, Something, and know he couldn't reproduce so the greenskin player can't get a giant in his next battle)