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GravlinG
09-06-2008, 13:36
Howsit. just been planning on tactics for using Flamers.

But the question came to mind, when standing and shooting.
I know il get -1 for standing and shooting at a charging enemy.
BUT what about long range ( this question should affect all shooting units), will i still have to have a further -1 for long range, or does stand and shoot Only have its regular -1 for stand and shoot?

I would think the unit would wait till the charging unit is at optimal shooting range then shoot, so that means only -1 and not -2 :D

Loopstah
09-06-2008, 13:45
You have to fire as soon as all models in the unit can reach.

All flamers can reach at the same time so they all fire as soon as the enemy is in range.

So you get -1 for long range if the enemy are at long range.

Tarax
09-06-2008, 15:25
Shooting modifiers are cumulative. And as Loopstah said, you shoot when the enemy is within range.

Zilverug
10-06-2008, 12:24
Wasn't the stand and shoot moment when the enemy are at exactly one normal move away? I understood that was the reason a unit cannot stand and shoot in case the enemy charges from less than its normal move distance.

In case of a skirmishing unit being charged that would be one normal move away from the closest model. Can we assume then that all other skirmishing models are at the same range at that closest model?

Lord Aries
10-06-2008, 13:30
Stand and shoot happens as soon as the enemy is in range. Its in the BRB, I don't know the page and can't look it up because I'm at work, but its there.

You can have a -2 for SaS, -3 if they are skirmishers charging from over half range.

WLBjork
10-06-2008, 13:54
Wasn't the stand and shoot moment when the enemy are at exactly one normal move away? I understood that was the reason a unit cannot stand and shoot in case the enemy charges from less than its normal move distance.

Not quite. Stand and Shoot requires the charging unit to be more than half it's charge move away.

Some units (Flyers, creatures suffering stupidity etc.) may not increase their move when they charge.

But no matter where the charging unit is, if the defending unit can take the shot, they do so as soon as possible.

xragg
10-06-2008, 14:01
The penalties can range from -1 to -4 (or more) at least for what I can think of.

-1 to be able to SaS
-1 if long range
-1 if charging unit is skirmisher or single, mansized character on foot
-1 if shooting multiple shots

All normal shooting modifiers apply to stand and shot. Even -1 if charger is still in cover when getting shot (ie, charging from woods) would apply.

Braad
10-06-2008, 22:34
You cannot do multiple shot when you Stand and shoot, IIRC.

However, if you charge from a faraway building but not that far that you can shoot right away... it means:
-1 SaS
-1 long range
-3 building (skirmish doesn't add to the building thing)

-5...

Lord Aries
10-06-2008, 23:01
You can do worse... You can S&S against Mengils, from over 12" away, and have huge negatives.

-1 S&S
-1 Multiple Shots
-1 Skirmishers
-2 Banner from Mengils
-1 Over Half


-6!!!! To be honest, this is not the point of the thread. I'm sure you can somehow get a -10 to hit, but it doesn't matter. We answered the question, and no longer will people be unaware.

Nurgling Chieftain
10-06-2008, 23:28
But no matter where the charging unit is, if the defending unit can take the shot, they do so as soon as possible.

I heard a cute exploit for Dwarves: you take a unit of thunderers and give one model a pistol instead. Now, when you get charged, you don't S&S until the opponent is 8" away - short range! :p

lparigi34
10-06-2008, 23:35
Or empire engineers!!!

TheDarkDaff
11-06-2008, 07:25
I heard a cute exploit for Dwarves: you take a unit of thunderers and give one model a pistol instead. Now, when you get charged, you don't S&S until the opponent is 8" away - short range! :p

You can also use it to stop the charged unit from firing at all if you can manouvre your charge to stay out of range of some of the models in a unit (large skink units are the only way i have managed this where the unit was trying to screen across about 18 inches).

DeathlessDraich
11-06-2008, 10:22
You have to fire as soon as all models in the unit can reach.

All flamers can reach at the same time so they all fire as soon as the enemy is in range.
.

Impossible unless there is only 1 Flamer.:p


In case of a skirmishing unit being charged that would be one normal move away from the closest model. Can we assume then that all other skirmishing models are at the same range at that closest model?

You've highlighted one of the 3 contradictory problems with the S&S rules. More below**



But no matter where the charging unit is, if the defending unit can take the shot, they do so as soon as possible.

The exact positions of the shooters do matter, however and leads to the first 2 contradictions of S&S rules.

A) pg 19 - " the *unit* let loose as soon as their enemies are within range of *every* firing model"

N.B. The *unit* can S&S

Now add this rule:

B) pg 19 - "If the chargers are found to be too close to stand and shoot" etc
i.e. they can only S&S if they are *not* too close.

The S&S measurement for a skirmishing shooting unit is therefore seemingly determined by the furthest model from the charger and *not* measured from the closest model.

It is possible that the chargers will be less than half charge distance *by the time they are within range of the furthest Flamer*. - especially with a Flamers unit which is spread out and 'deep' against a M9 or M10 charger.

1) The first problem:
The charge distance [against skirmishers] is measured from the charger to the *closest* visible skirmisher. - Skirmisher chapter.
Reconcile this with (A) and (B) above.
What then is the correct measurement for half the charge distance for S&S - from which skirmisher model?

My solution -
S&S is possible if the charger charges to within shooting *range* of the *furthest skirmisher*
And
the charger is more than half its charge distance from the closest skirmisher when they can *all* S&S [and not when they start].

2) The 2nd problem:
pg 26 - Range [short, long or out of range] for shooting units is determined *per model*
i.e. when shooting some models may be shooting at long range while some at short and may be out of range.
S&S however is determined for the whole unit! - Rule (A) above.

2 possibilities here -
a) The solution I favour - Work out ranges for each individual model [when S&S by rule (A) is possible]
b) Work out whether S&S is possible per model - not really supported by the rules in its present form.

lparigi34
11-06-2008, 20:43
...
My solution -
S&S is possible if the charger charges to within shooting *range* of the *furthest skirmisher*
And
the charger is more than half its charge distance from the closest skirmisher when they can *all* S&S [and not when they start].


I agree with the 2nd part, but not the with the 1st one.

IMHO S&S represents a quick reaction, so thats why is not allowed if the charging unit is too close. When the closest skirmisher is too close to the Unit, it must draw hand weapons and prepare for CC, so they can no longer fire range weapon. IMHO the closest skirmisher compromise the Unit ability to S&S if he is that close.




...
2 possibilities here -
a) The solution I favour - Work out ranges for each individual model [when S&S by rule (A) is possible]
b) Work out whether S&S is possible per model - not really supported by the rules in its present form.

I'd do some abstraction here, as every model in the S&S unit eventually will be able to shoot as enemies close the gap. If some enemies are in Long Range or Out of Range, I'd shoot all of them at Long Range.

If some enemies are in Short Range and some in Longe Range, then work it out from every S&S unit individual model, all those that can shoot Short Range do it at short range, all that may shoot Long Range or Out of Range, work it out at long range.

TheDarkDaff
12-06-2008, 03:59
My solution -
S&S is possible if the charger charges to within shooting *range* of the *furthest skirmisher*
And
the charger is more than half its charge distance from the closest skirmisher when they can *all* S&S [and not when they start].

I just realised that this will also have ramifications for those people who gave their Dwarf Thunderer Champ a brace of pistols. If you can get M9, 10 or fliers to charge them you get within the half charge range before the Thunderer's are allowed to perform the Stand and Shoot 8" away. So the Champ may stand and shoot because a pistol always can but the thunderers can't (enemy within half it's charge range).

At least i think that is how you said it works.

Nurgling Chieftain
12-06-2008, 05:14
Yeah, I don't think that's even correct, though. There's no solid reason to think you check the distance from the point of fire rather than from the beginning of the charge, and there are excellent reasons to think that you don't, most notably the fact that the particular unit being shot at isn't even key to the equation. Any unit which is charging the missile troops in question and is a single move or less away prevents them from performing any stand&shoot. Where is that unit halfway through a different unit's charge? If we're talking about skirmishers, the first charger might already be in contact and the skirmishers formed up to him! If we're not talking about skirmishers, the question doesn't even really have an answer.

Braad
12-06-2008, 08:55
As far as I know, the rules go like this:
If the enemy charges from under half their charge range, you don't get S&S.
If the enemy charges from further away than half their charge range, you do get to S&S. Nothing more, nothing less
Then, they fire their guns as soon as all models can shoot. It does NOT matter how far the unit is at that moment, even if they are only 1" away, if the charge started over half their movement away, they can shoot. They already saw them coming, shouldered their guns or armed their crossbows, and at the right moment the boss shouts "FIRE!".
The only way out of this, which was mentioned above, is when you reach the unit before all models in the charged unit can shoot, which only happens with a very long unit, or if the unit is curved around a rock or so.

Concerning the skirmish thing, it is the length of the charge that matters, so nothing with closest skirmisher but the lenght of the path they have to go before they reach their first skirmisher.
Otherwise, if I'm standing right next (much less then half charge range) to a unit of skirmishers, but I would need a big turn (of way more then half my charge range) to get to them, the skirmishers wouldn't be able to shoot, even though the charger has to move a long way and they have plenty of time to react with some arrows. So that's silly. Charge distance counts, not straight distance to target.

Condottiere
12-06-2008, 11:29
As far as I know, the rules go like this:
If the enemy charges from under half their charge range, you don't get S&S.
If the enemy charges from further away than half their charge range, you do get to S&S. Nothing more, nothing less
Then, they fire their guns as soon as all models can shoot. It does NOT matter how far the unit is at that moment, even if they are only 1" away, if the charge started over half their movement away, they can shoot. They already saw them coming, shouldered their guns or armed their crossbows, and at the right moment the boss shouts "FIRE!".
The only way out of this, which was mentioned above, is when you reach the unit before all models in the charged unit can shoot, which only happens with a very long unit, or if the unit is curved around a rock or so.


Are you saying that I can't S&S a infantry regiment 5x1 5" away from my 20 model 20x1 crossbow regiment?:confused:

Loopstah
12-06-2008, 12:10
Are you saying that I can't S&S a infantry regiment 5x1 5" away from my 20 model 20x1 crossbow regiment?:confused:

If the infantry have M:4 then half their charge is 4.

5" is therefore more than half their charge move and you can S&S as long as the all the shooters are in range of the chargers.

If one or more of the crossbows on the end of the line is out of range then you can't S&S.

Lordmonkey
12-06-2008, 13:00
If the enemy unit is over half the missile range whenit charges, your flamers will suffer the -1 penalty for over half range as well as the -1 penalty for being charged.

Frackin' tzeentch...

Braad
12-06-2008, 14:29
Are you saying that I can't S&S a infantry regiment 5x1 5" away from my 20 model 20x1 crossbow regiment?:confused:

Uuh, well, AFAIK the rules say you shoot at the moment that all models in the unit can shoot, right? If the enemy get in CC before this situation occurs, then when do you shoot? Not, it seems.
Now I'm not sure about this one, but this is what someone in an earlier post mentioned, and I can't think of anything against it...

While thinking about this a second time, it indeed sounds weirder than weird. Any arguments against it?

Mercules
12-06-2008, 14:31
You cannot do multiple shot when you Stand and shoot, IIRC.

Ok.. I can't find anything in my book to support this. Maybe I am looking in the wrong location. Could you give a page number?

highelfmage
13-06-2008, 19:31
Ok.. I can't find anything in my book to support this. Maybe I am looking in the wrong location. Could you give a page number?



look under multi shot it says you can multi shoot in the SHOOTING PHASE and s&s happens in moment.

EvC
13-06-2008, 20:03
That seems to be correct. It's backed up by the High Elf fAQ which says the Reaver Bow cannot be used to stand and shoot, because it has in its text "may be fired in the shooting phase" (or similar). Silly rules...

Mercules
13-06-2008, 20:15
Well, it says, "each shooting phase" but good point.

Mercules
13-06-2008, 20:17
That seems to be correct. It's backed up by the High Elf fAQ which says the Reaver Bow cannot be used to stand and shoot, because it has in its text "may be fired in the shooting phase" (or similar). Silly rules...

Yet some units with Artillery Dice can stand and shoot those weapons. Yes, silly rules. :)

OldMaster
13-06-2008, 21:11
By the way, Flamers do not Multiple shoot. They shoot D6 bolts, which is different. It even speficially states that he does not suffer the -1 penalty for multiple shots.


Or...wait. Am I being oppositionary again?


Mercules, 666 posts!!

Tarax
15-06-2008, 11:52
-3 building (skirmish doesn't add to the building thing)



A unit can NOT charge from a building, so irrelevant.


If the infantry have M:4 then half their charge is 4.

5" is therefore more than half their charge move and you can S&S as long as the all the shooters are in range of the chargers.

If one or more of the crossbows on the end of the line is out of range then you can't S&S.

This has nothing to do with range, but with LoS. So they can S&S.