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donaldtroll
10-06-2008, 05:36
I was playing a game recently vs HE and came across this combo: there is one item that makes your wizard ethereal and unable to attack, and another that makes all magic weapons in base lose their magical properties... i faced a L4 HE mage in a unit of stubborn white lions... was not a happy time... he just challenge-locked my lord for the entire game and beat me up with s6 and his stubborn ld

is this combo even legal? i know VC's ethereals cannot join units... is there some other reason why this would not work? it somehow felt wrong to me, but i am unsure as to the intent of the rules...
thanks

Nurgling Chieftain
10-06-2008, 06:03
As far as I know that works. There's some interesting discussion on the subject in this thread:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114126

Condottiere
10-06-2008, 06:39
I think that's the Talisman of Saphery and Folariath's Robe.

ehlijen
10-06-2008, 07:00
You could refuse the challenge or acccept it with a unit champion instead. Or for complete silltness with your own mage. I dunno, they could discuss Vaul's latest theory on the unmakability of the nullstone while the fight rages on around them :)

Also, not all magical attacks result from magic weapons. Some armies have other ways to gain magical attacks (for example the brettonian grail vow).

OldMaster
10-06-2008, 07:51
Yep.
Use those rules and you'll beat him.

Which army do you run? Lock him down, roast him with magic, attack him with something that is as etheral as he is (deamons, Forest Spirits, ghosts etc.)... there are countless ways.

donaldtroll
10-06-2008, 11:10
Yep.
Use those rules and you'll beat him.

Which army do you run? Lock him down, roast him with magic, attack him with something that is as etheral as he is (deamons, Forest Spirits, ghosts etc.)... there are countless ways.

I run many armies, and i am sure that i will have no problems adapting to the tactic, just as long as i know it is legal :) ( was running VC with vlad at the time)

Gazak Blacktoof
10-06-2008, 11:57
I'm not sure that you could hurt the mage with any weapon in close combat. Though there are a few effects that might work and you can kill him at range.

The Talisman of Saphery indicates that all 'magical weapons' in contact with the bearer become mundane and have none of their other magical properties.

Folariath's Robe says you can only be hit by 'magical attacks'.

All attacks in combat are made by weapons. Even daemons use magical hand weapons for the purposes of the rules- even if daemonettes, horrors, etc don't actually have a weapon on the model.

With the exception of a few items/ effects like Standard of the Cursing Word the damn elf is invulnerable in combat as far as I can see.

Loopstah
10-06-2008, 12:08
Is it just me or is there actually no rule anywhere that states attacks with magic weapons are magical attacks?

Jedi152
10-06-2008, 12:13
It's legal but not flawless. Magical missile weapons, including spells, would still damage you, and you'll quickly be beaten by combat resolution and run down if you're not careful.

EvC
10-06-2008, 12:31
I'm not sure that you could hurt the mage with any weapon in close combat. Though there are a few effects that might work and you can kill him at range.

The Talisman of Saphery indicates that all 'magical weapons' in contact with the bearer become mundane and have none of their other magical properties.

Folariath's Robe says you can only be hit by 'magical attacks'.

All attacks in combat are made by weapons. Even daemons use magical hand weapons for the purposes of the rules- even if daemonettes, horrors, etc don't actually have a weapon on the model.

Check your High Elf rulebook. Models with magical attacks (Such as Daemons, Forest Spirits, other Ethereals, etc.) do not have their attacks modified by the Talisman of Saphery, so they still count as magical attacks and can still harm the Archmage.

So send in the Wraiths and Spirit Hosts! And always accept a challenge from a sneaky Archmage with a unit Champion first, bearing in mind he has to reveal he has the Robe at that point (As the Robe stops him from attacking).

Gazak Blacktoof
10-06-2008, 12:37
Check your High Elf rulebook. Models with magical attacks (Such as Daemons, Forest Spirits, other Ethereals, etc.) do not have their attacks modified by the Talisman of Saphery, so they still count as magical attacks and can still harm the Archmage.

I just have. I suggest you check yours!;)

The Talisman of Saphery makes no mention of the above units. Folariath's Robe does, listing them as examples of models with magical attacks.

Loopstah
10-06-2008, 12:39
Just because something has magical attacks doesn't mean it is a Magic Weapon.

Magic Weapons are items picked from the Magic Weapons section in army lists. Anything else isn't a Magic Weapon, just a weapon with magical attacks.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-06-2008, 12:55
Neither Magic Item says "Magic Weapon" they say 'magical weapons' and 'magical attacks'.

Small 'm' as indicated in my initial post.

I don't think its using the same game term, but I might be wrong.

EDIT: The elf is going to be fairly mediocre mage and can't attack in combat so I don't think its unreasonable.

Note- I don't play High Elves in case you think I've got an axe to grind here.

Godgolden
10-06-2008, 14:15
ignore me.

EvC
10-06-2008, 15:49
I just have. I suggest you check yours!;)

The Talisman of Saphery makes no mention of the above units. Folariath's Robe does, listing them as examples of models with magical attacks.

Okay, whatever, the Robe, not the Talisman. I knew it was one or the other, but it's exactly the same point though. Daemons have magic attacks. They do not wield magic weapons in the conventional sense to be made mundane by the Talisman. Daemons and ethereals can hurt the Robe/ Talisman Archmage.

Keep arguing if you want, this isn't a new discussion. People noticed this combo before the book had even been released, and this was the conclusion that was arrived at. Even the geezers who do have axes to grind at ulthuan.net accept it ;)

Hell, go look at this thread:
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2333875
You may find the third post down especially interesting, that fella gave a perfect answer to the query let me tell you ;)

Gazak Blacktoof
10-06-2008, 16:58
Well that could have been embarrassing if it actually contradicted what I've said in this thread but I don't think it does, perhaps it does but that's life.

From Febrauary of this year...


It would depend on the item negating the magical effects.

Daemon attacks are magical but are not magic weapons. Similarly daemonic gifts are an inate ability and do not count as magic items.


An item negating an effect will have a specific wording as to what it affects.

All magic weapons are magical and make magical attacks.

Not all magical attacks eminate from magic items/ weapons.

Perhaps I should have capitalized the 'm' in 'magic', with respect to Magic weapons to make myself clear but I didn't and hopefully the mob wont be round later to string me up.



I should have said-

"Daemon attacks are magical but are not Magic weapons. Similarly daemonic gifts are an innate ability and do not count as Magic items.


An item negating an effect will have a specific wording as to what it affects.

All Magic weapons are magical and make magical attacks.

Not all magical attacks emanate from Magic items/ weapons."



Now that's on public record...

Perhaps the text in the magic items is incorrect and needs some capitalization but in the mean time here's the text of the two items if there's anybody that hasn't got the high elf book and wants to wade into the discussion.

'Talisman of Saphery

The magical weapons of enemy models will have no special effects whilst they are in base contact with the bearer of the talisman. Treat the magic weapon as a normal one of its type, eg, a magic sword would count as a hand weapon, magic spear would count as a spear, etc.'


''Foloriath's Robe

Model on foot only. The wearer of this cloak can only be hit by magical attacks (for example, Magic weapons and attacks from Daemons or Ethereal creatures). In addition, the bearer may not strike blows in combat, or shoot with a ranged weapon.'


I'm probably coming off as if I actually care, I don't. I'm entirely ambivalent about how other people play it in their games, I don't have high elves and I doubt my brother would use it with his high elves, so its unlikely to ever come up.

That's my last post on the mater unless EvC wants to find an even older thread in which I contributed;)...

EDIT: Nope I'm unsubscribbing.

Loopstah
10-06-2008, 17:37
Perhaps the text in the magic items is incorrect and needs some capitalization but in the mean time here's the text of the two items if there's anybody that hasn't got the high elf book and wants to wade into the discussion.

'Talisman of Saphery

The magical weapons of enemy models will have no special effects whilst they are in base contact with the bearer of the talisman. Treat the magic weapon as a normal one of its type, eg, a magic sword would count as a hand weapon, magic spear would count as a spear, etc.'

Seems pretty clear that it only applies to magic weapons, i.e. the ones you buy in the Magic Weapon section of the army lists. Capitalised or not the term "magic weapon" has a pretty clear definition in Warhammer.



''Foloriath's Robe

Model on foot only. The wearer of this cloak can only be hit by magical attacks (for example, Magic weapons and attacks from Daemons or Ethereal creatures). In addition, the bearer may not strike blows in combat, or shoot with a ranged weapon.'

Here we see magic weapons given as an example along with Daemons and Ethereal creatures. Clearly then Daemons and Ethereal creatures do not wield magic weapons or they wouldn't have needed mentioning.

In my opinion from reading the descriptions:

Things that the Talisman works against:
Anything bought in the Magic Weapon section of an army list.

Things the Talisman doesn't work against:
Daemon attacks
Ethereal attacks
Wight Blades
Venom of the Firefly Frog
Anything else with a magical attack not bought in the Magic Weapon section or that gains magical attacks by other means.

EvC
10-06-2008, 19:12
Sorted :D

Gazak, you should be a politician... I know you don't really care, but it sure was fun making you squirm :D

donaldtroll
11-06-2008, 04:17
It's legal but not flawless. Magical missile weapons, including spells, would still damage you, and you'll quickly be beaten by combat resolution and run down if you're not careful.

it is kind of hard to get beaten by combat when you got a 20 man strong unit of white lions that are stubborn ld9 and asf with s6, with your best character being perma challenge locked :O

kroq'gar
11-06-2008, 04:26
Issue a challenge with your unit champion and mince his unit.

Treat it like van host spectrum.