PDA

View Full Version : TLOS abuse by incomplete models.



lain2k3
10-06-2008, 09:34
We all know those people who don't put their flying bases on their half painted skimmers.

I really don't understand why we shouldn't be able to shoot at these peoples skimmers now.

Why are those oh-so-rare super short flying bases that only come with Devilfish going to be necessary to play at full effectiveness come 5th?

I saw some guy today who had his gun drones glued right onto a round 28mm base. Congrats, he now has better potential in games because he can hide some drones behind a pile of dirt.

We all have, or know people who have, really cool looking posed models that have taller bases for their HQs and squad leaders etc, why should sweet models be less effective in game than boring, short ones.

Why should making every model in your army prone be able to net you an advantage vs someone who didn't rebuy and rebuild their exact same army to abuse 5th ed rules?

Cinematic.

:confused:

IJW
10-06-2008, 09:36
Not to forget that the prone models won't be able to see as much...

MagrukWikkid
10-06-2008, 09:44
We have used TLOS for ages - it just requires a small amount of sportsmanship to work.

PierceC
10-06-2008, 09:59
Surely, if you want to game against a person with half-painted/assembled models then you shold be able to tell the person that up to a certain height you always have LOS.

An incomplete model is solely your discretion to play against, just the same as a proxy model. If you don't have the back bone to stand up for yourself and say to your opponent, "No, your Wave Falcon doesn't have a stand so you can't play it, unless we assume its X" high" then you can't blame the game designers.

Plus, as has been stated, models must be modeled on the bases they come with. If the skimmer comes with a stand, it must be on the stand! Simple!!! If it's not, then once again it's your discretion to play against that model or not. So that person with the gun drones on a 28mm base, if you play him I guess you can tell him to lose the drones because you won't play against them. I am 99% sure there will be a paragraph on these same situations right in the front of the new rule book.

As far as prone models, as IJW has stated they will see as little of you as you see of them. This isn't a 1st-person shooter where models can peak around walls, fire a few rounds, then dip behind that wall again.

LOS work both ways, there are very few occasions where your going to have "static" LOS and your enemy is not going to have LOS right back on you. The biggest time this won't be the case is vehicles, but even then it will have more to do with restrictions due to Weapons arcs then LOS.

Ubik_Lives
10-06-2008, 10:07
As far as prone models, as IJW has stated they will see as little of you as you see of them. This isn't a 1st-person shooter where models can peak around walls, fire a few rounds, then dip behind that wall again.

Unless the models in question are drones, in which case yes, yes they can.

IJW
10-06-2008, 10:12
It's also worth pointing out that 'true' LoS is exactly how 4th ed works, with the exception of area terrain and combats.

Killgore
10-06-2008, 10:13
any table top game requires a degree of sportsmanship from gamers

just dont play people who go out of their way to abuse rules

Crazy_Irish
10-06-2008, 10:55
There is a rule in the new book, that says, you have to place your skimmers on the flying bases. so as a few befor me sayed, just don't play him, or make a deal.

Charax
10-06-2008, 11:06
In Second Edition (back when I had an Eldar army) I was so sick of the little pylons on my Flying bases snapping that I glued my Grav-tanks directly onto the circular bases. Frankly, if anyone had a problem with that, screw them - and the same goes for 5th edition (except now I have a Nurgle army, so I don't use flying bases at all)

Refusing to play is the be-all and end-all of situations like this - if your opponent is doing something you don't like, don't play. if your opponent thinks you're being unreasonable in not playing him, then he's entitled to not play you either - if you can't pick an amicable solution to the situation, don't play.

And, as many people have said before, TLOS works both ways (although if I ever redo my Eldar army I'm putting the grav-tanks on custom telescoping bases because it'll look awesome - and they won't break as easily)

Squallish
10-06-2008, 11:19
Not to forget that the prone models won't be able to see as much...

Some models don't need to see to be effective.

x-esiv-4c
10-06-2008, 12:18
Woohoo Nurglings!

Bloodknight
10-06-2008, 12:23
My question is: why do you let people play with half-assembled stuff?
To fully build your stuff is the least that can be expected from a wargamer. And yeah, those things break very easily, so I put my Raiders and Ravagers all on brass rod.

EVIL INC
10-06-2008, 12:28
Yes, those models that are prone are inneffective. When those drones go to shoot from behind a wall, tell them to draw a los from the drone itself and laugh as the light smacks into the wall in front of them. As a matter of fact, drones have underslung guns. If they call cover at all, they cant shoot period because the gun is the lowest part of the model.
Same goes for jetbikes and skimmers. Just tell your opponant that if they deploy without bases, they cannot add the bases on later in the game. Likewise, if they are deployed with bases, dont let them remove them later in the game.
The only models that could benefit from this are the true close combat units like possessed, daemons and such. People who do that to those units I would be far less likely to play.

Killgore
10-06-2008, 12:38
admitatly i have a habbit of forgettin my flyer bases for my Skimmers, but i use so few of them in my Eldar army nobody has ever complained

ill remember to bring them in my case for 5th ed.

Marshal2Crusaders
10-06-2008, 16:31
What if I make my drones attached to my squad leaders on super long rods (like 12" high, like a UAV) it can draw LOS to anywhere on the board. Now if it is a maker drone can it designate even if the rest of the squad cant and call in a seeker missile.

Bloodknight
10-06-2008, 16:41
That leads to the following funny occurrence: it calls a seeker missile in, the rest of your squad cannot shoot because they don't see anything, but the opponent can draw LOS to the drone and kill your whole squad from anywhere on the table under the new rules. This must be the most ineffective idea to abuse the rules in 5th ;).

Marshal2Crusaders
10-06-2008, 16:44
I didnt know it could do that...

neophryte
10-06-2008, 16:53
Wait, does that mean it is kind of balanced? Shock horror shock!

Mr. Smuckles
10-06-2008, 16:58
Use a ruler to determine how tall the mini is supposed to be and then use that information to generate your LOS.

Democratus
10-06-2008, 17:01
Yes, those models that are prone are inneffective. When those drones go to shoot from behind a wall, tell them to draw a los from the drone itself and laugh as the light smacks into the wall in front of them. As a matter of fact, drones have underslung guns. If they call cover at all, they cant shoot period because the gun is the lowest part of the model.

The problem is that drones can jump out from behind the wall during the Movement phase, blast the enemy during the Shooting phase, and then jump back behind that low wall during the Assault phase. So they would never be exposed to enemy fire while being able to shoot themselves.

Stragely enough, this is exactly how they are often used in 4th edition.

The real trick with Tau Drones in 5th edition is their usefullness as mobile cover. They can get out of the way for a unit to shoot, then hop back into "blocking" mode. Given the large number of vehicle-mounted drone units a Mech Tau player can field - this can be frustrating for opponents.

PierceC
10-06-2008, 17:09
Refusing to play is the be-all and end-all of situations like this - if your opponent is doing something you don't like, don't play. if your opponent thinks you're being unreasonable in not playing him, then he's entitled to not play you either - if you can't pick an amicable solution to the situation, don't play.

I have to say, that this really ends the argument for me :D

Charax raises a legitimate point that if someone doesn't want to play you because they think that you are being intractable/inflexible, and you can't make a compromise, then they have ever right to not play you.

I think in a lot of the discussions, the opinion of a "null" games (where both parties chose not to play each other) is forgotten. Hell, it doesn't sound like much fund, but withdrawing from play is a reasonable action.

PierceC
10-06-2008, 17:15
What if I make my drones attached to my squad leaders on super long rods (like 12" high, like a UAV) it can draw LOS to anywhere on the board. Now if it is a maker drone can it designate even if the rest of the squad cant and call in a seeker missile.


Well correct me if I'm wrong, but depending on how weapons are measured then you'd be out of range and have LOS but not be able to hit anything.

If believe, I could be off here so don't kill me here, that in 3rd edition, weapons were measured from the point of the firer, whereas in 4th they were just measured from base to base. So if your drone was 12" high, you measured from 12" high, down to the table. That would put you out of range of a lot of the table. :eyebrows:

Geddonight
10-06-2008, 17:34
Plus, as has been stated, models must be modeled on the bases they come with. If the skimmer comes with a stand, it must be on the stand! Simple!!! If it's not, then once again it's your discretion to play against that model or not. So that person with the gun drones on a 28mm base, if you play him I guess you can tell him to lose the drones because you won't play against them. I am 99% sure there will be a paragraph on these same situations right in the front of the new rule book.

Hrm... Base size doesn't matter for vehicles, as you measure from the weapon/to the hull. Height doesn't even matter--the flying bases come with variable height, and invariably if you use them, they will snap. Moreover, I don't think there's anything in the 5th ed rulebook that says the model must be at modeled to the appropriate height (correct me if i'm wrong).

Make sure to tell the necron player he needs to have his monolith on that silly flying base. I'd like to see that exchange.

Of course... thinking about it... I could just glue the base without the stem to the bottom of my skimmers and viola, they are on the base provided. Perfectly Raw :angel:

Meriwether
10-06-2008, 18:14
The funniest part of the freaking out that is going on regarding TLOS is that 4th edition, and 3rd edition, and 2nd edition, and Rogue Trader were **ALL** TLOS, with the exception of Area Terrain -- which absolutely was the exception rather than the rule. The only reason why this is even considered a significant change is because people were not following the rules in the first place and counting everything as Area Terrain.

Meri

Fred_Scuttle
10-06-2008, 19:21
The funniest part of the freaking out that is going on regarding TLOS is that 4th edition, and 3rd edition, and 2nd edition, and Rogue Trader were **ALL** TLOS, with the exception of Area Terrain -- which absolutely was the exception rather than the rule. The only reason why this is even considered a significant change is because people were not following the rules in the first place and counting everything as Area Terrain.

Meri

Meri,

'True' LOS in 4th ( and I don't have my book - please excuse not a direct quote ) was drawn to a verticle cylinder from the models base up to the size catagory of the model. ( I.E. models are assumed to take up the space of their base to their height catagoty )

NOT to the acutal heart, head, foot, hand of the exact model in question. That meant that the running Eldar were treated the same as the standing at-the-ready Eldar. That meant the kneeling Tau were treated the same as the standing Tau.

Now, that's not the case. Is it a big deal, small deal, end of the world or greatest thing ever? Remains to be seen. BUT - please don't confuse the two as being the same.

In 4th there is no LOS difference between a grot on a 25mm base who does not extend one 0.000000001 of a MM beyond the edge of the base and a Geenestealer with his crazy legs and arms all spread out in his 'I'M GONNA EAT YOU!!' pose.

NOW - in 5th - there is a difference. Again, not droning on about the MERRIT of the difference, but it is there none-the-less.

Fred

Partisan Rimmo
10-06-2008, 19:31
This thead has blown my mind.

I've just devised a new and fantastically convenient method of attaching flying bases to my (numerous) flying models.

Pin the underside of the models as normal, but on the base piece, instead of the pathetic plastic stick,instead glue a section of thin aluminium tubing cut to the desired length. When it use, the pin just sits inside the tubing, holding the whole thing in place. Easy repairs, easy storage... I have work to do.

I did like the concept of transparency though. If it's the underside of a skimmer I can get away with it, but it will stick out on gun drones. Maybe I'll make the exception with them. They're light models, so chances of breakage are unlikely.


But to reference the original post, yes, true LOS can be very stupid, and this is a very good example of how. I shudder to imagine how long it is till we see the Prone Possessed, commando crawling their way into battle.

I mean, it's almost like that's the sensible way to behave on the battlefield or something!

Lord Inquisitor
10-06-2008, 19:34
Firstly, it cuts both ways.

If my opponents has "low skimming" tanks without bases, fine. If I can't shoot it because it isn't elevated enough to draw LOS, that's okay. Just don't try and claim your skimmers can "pop up" to shoot back at me.

Secondly, how often is it really going to matter? Just as with models on flight stands, the only time it really matters is when you would not otherwise be able to see the model at all. If you can only see the top of the turret compared with the hull - what does it matter? It's hull down either way. Even when it would matter, chances are you'd be able to position the model where it couldn't be seen - it'd just take more fiddling to achieve.

Worst comes to worst, bring your own flight stands to lend to your opponent!

lain2k3
10-06-2008, 19:46
But to reference the original post, yes, true LOS can be very stupid, and this is a very good example of how. I shudder to imagine how long it is till we see the Prone Possessed, commando crawling their way into battle.

I mean, it's almost like that's the sensible way to behave on the battlefield or something!

Yes, but the fact remains that, in an effort to add 'realism' to 40k, they have created situations where models can be laying flat on their stomachs and still 'run'.

And people have not addressed why models that have had time invested into their bases should be more visible in game than those that havent. It discourages good looking models from being used on the table.

Democratus
10-06-2008, 19:48
Meri,

'True' LOS in 4th ( and I don't have my book - please excuse not a direct quote ) was drawn to a verticle cylinder from the models base up to the size catagory of the model. ( I.E. models are assumed to take up the space of their base to their height catagoty )

This is nowhere in the 4th edition rules. The "magic cylinder" is a convention created by people to make the game simpler to play. It is not RAW.



NOT to the acutal heart, head, foot, hand of the exact model in question. That meant that the running Eldar were treated the same as the standing at-the-ready Eldar. That meant the kneeling Tau were treated the same as the standing Tau.

Again incorrect. A 1/2" kneeling Tau behind a 1/2" wall can't be seen in 4th edition whereas a 1" tall standing Tau can.


In 4th there is no LOS difference between a grot on a 25mm base who does not extend one 0.000000001 of a MM beyond the edge of the base and a Geenestealer with his crazy legs and arms all spread out in his 'I'M GONNA EAT YOU!!' pose.

Infantry models in 4th edition don't block LOS at all, so their position doesn't change that. However, drawing LOS to a model was indeed affected by its pose. If the pose of a model caused its body to be/not be visible then it would change whether the model could be shot.

The rules for LOS have not changed in any significant way from 4th to 5th. What has changed is the elimination of Area Terrain and the cover saves created by other units.

Lord Inquisitor
10-06-2008, 20:07
The rules for LOS have not changed in any significant way from 4th to 5th. What has changed is the elimination of Area Terrain and the cover saves created by other units.
Agreed - the area terrain will be the only big change.

But the really big change is that people will start playing the way they should have been playing all along.

Personally, I welcome that. It's going to make us all start playing on the same page. I don't know how many times I've told someone that I'm going to shoot his daemon prince over his rhino or something and get that familar look of "you can't do that" and I know I'm going to have to drag out the rulebook again...

IJW
10-06-2008, 23:04
'True' LOS in 4th ( and I don't have my book - please excuse not a direct quote ) was drawn to a verticle cylinder from the models base up to the size catagory of the model.
[...]
NOT to the acutal heart, head, foot, hand of the exact model in question
As others have pointed out, that's just flat-out WRONG. Area terrain and combats were the only times in 4th ed. where true LoS was not used. In all other circumstances, you had to be able to draw LoS from the shooter to the body (not gun barrels, antenna, banners etc.) of the target.
When you get access to your book, have a read through p20-1.

The two main differences, as far as I can see, are that:
1. Non-vehicle models not in your own unit can actually block LoS now.
2. Area terrain blocks via actual/true LoS instead of 6".

EDIT:

I don't know how many times I've told someone that I'm going to shoot his daemon prince over his rhino or something and get that familar look of "you can't do that" and I know I'm going to have to drag out the rulebook again...

That exact situation came up on the next-door table this evening...

Squallish
11-06-2008, 07:03
Kneeling DP with retracted wings ftw?

IJW
11-06-2008, 07:05
Wings =/= body.

Bloodknight
11-06-2008, 07:14
Yep. The book explicitly says that wings, swords and banners don't count.

Geddonight
11-06-2008, 08:24
but do they still block LOS? I'm envisioning Spawn-esque wings of uber-LOS blockage as the next addition to the double lash daemonprince armies

IJW
11-06-2008, 08:28
As far as I can see, yes, but you can already do that in 4th ed as MCs already block LoS.

Ammedie
11-06-2008, 11:08
in 4th it was TLOS but we where asked to genralsie so the game whent on and people who wanted assault mariens on flying stand cos they look cool could. now we are being told to be nitpicking and a pain in the ass about things.

what about people who have amuseing modles?

what about terrain where you blataintly cant stand modles up? are you alowed to lie them down?

can i have my telescopic flying stands? for battle suits. or falcons?

Finnblood
11-06-2008, 11:39
Melee models will benefit. You can convert them into poses that have minimal hight. Like, crawling or somesuch.

Also, I'm thinking about giving my tanks telescopes. :angel:

insaniak
11-06-2008, 12:22
in 4th it was TLOS but we where asked to genralsie so the game whent on and people who wanted assault mariens on flying stand cos they look cool could.

You still can. And they'll be no more visible than they were under 4th, 3rd, 2nd edition or Rogue Trader rules.



now we are being told to be nitpicking and a pain in the ass about things.

No we're not. For the majority of the game, we're being told to resolve LOS in exactly the same way as it's been done for 20 years.



what about people who have amuseing modles?

Er... ok, I'll bite: What about them?




What about terrain where you blataintly cant stand modles up? are you alowed to lie them down?

That's something you'll have to sort out with your opponent. Again, just like you would have under any previous version of the rules. Or the rules of any other miniatures game, for that matter.



can i have my telescopic flying stands? for battle suits. or falcons?

So long as you don't try to alter the model in the middle of the game, put whatever stands you want on your models and I doubt many people will have a problem with it.




Melee models will benefit. You can convert them into poses that have minimal hight. Like, crawling or somesuch.

Modeling them like that would have given you a similar benefit under any previous version of the rules.

It would have also received a similar response from your opponent as it would receive now.

EvilMinion
11-06-2008, 13:04
You must have your modles on bases!!! This game uses bases to signify the height and size of modles because there is no longer heights of modles. Besides, your gun drones would"nt be sputtering on the ground...

Charax
11-06-2008, 13:08
You have always been able to alter the construction of your models to gain an in-game benefit. You will continue to be able to do so. it's no more or less of a problem than it has been before.

Meriwether
11-06-2008, 15:12
Meri,

'True' LOS in 4th ( and I don't have my book - please excuse not a direct quote ) was drawn to a verticle cylinder from the models base up to the size catagory of the model. ( I.E. models are assumed to take up the space of their base to their height catagoty )

Flat wrong, Fred. See attached.

Meri

zanotam
11-06-2008, 16:19
I don't know whether to feel stupid or smart, because I have never played a game that had any area terrain that was not a forest in 4th. I didn't even realize there was that stupid area terrain rule, my gaming group has always just used TLoS and given any terrain we wanted special rules to make it more fune i.e. this building gives X cover save, but can be destroyed if someone shoots at it and then gets a penetrating shot (count as 12 AV), this forest is extra thick so the 6" rules becomes 3", etc. Made the game a lot of fun actually.

Eternum
11-06-2008, 17:50
It's actually fairly easy to keep your flying stands from breaking. It's usually the little tip on the top of the post that snaps off, so I found that all I had to do was use a pin vice and drill straight down into the post from the top - about 1cm is generally sufficient. Superglue your favorite pinning material in there (paperclip) and snip off the excess. I have yet to have any flying bases break on me once this trick is applied - and I have a few LS typhoons with the old metal missile launchers which used to eat stands for breakfast.

I like having the flying stands for the same reasons that I try to paint my models well - it all just looks better. Using models without a stand was never a consideration on my part unless one broke in mid-battle, which still really chafed. I always planned on having one for my monolith in my eventual necron army even though I've NEVER seen one on a stand in actual play. I'm OCD like that ;)

The biggest difference I see with 5th ed. TLOS rules however is the new lack of true line of sight when shooting at models. I can now shoot a whole squad up while being able to see only one model in that squad - at least in 4th it was only the models visible (in LOS) that could be removed as casualties. I think this is where the abuses and complaints will spring from since it isn't very logical, and is even less a case of true line of sight than the previous version. How hard would it have been to keep the ruling that only models in range and LOS can be taken?

The result may very well be more balanced when all the new changes are taken into account and used together, but I certainly have a hard time seeing how at this point. Time will tell I guess, once I've played 5th ed. for a while.

Meriwether
11-06-2008, 19:16
The biggest difference I see with 5th ed. TLOS rules however is the new lack of true line of sight when shooting at models. I can now shoot a whole squad up while being able to see only one model in that squad - at least in 4th it was only the models visible (in LOS) that could be removed as casualties. I think this is where the abuses and complaints will spring from since it isn't very logical, and is even less a case of true line of sight than the previous version. How hard would it have been to keep the ruling that only models in range and LOS can be taken?

Your signature says "Life's too short to play 40K with cheesmongering toolbags"... Guess what cheesmongering toolbaggeries were removed by the new rule in question? If you said "range sniping", "vehicle sniping", and "terrain sniping", give yourself a cookie!

GW plugged a big, annoying hole here, and did so with a rule that can be easily rationalized (you get shot as you're moving around, so individual model positioning isn't important, but the overall positioning of the squad). Rejoice.

Meri

kendaop
11-06-2008, 19:44
Your signature says "Life's too short to play 40K with cheesmongering toolbags"... Guess what cheesmongering toolbaggeries were removed by the new rule in question? If you said "range sniping", "vehicle sniping", and "terrain sniping", give yourself a cookie!

GW plugged a big, annoying hole here, and did so with a rule that can be easily rationalized (you get shot as you're moving around, so individual model positioning isn't important, but the overall positioning of the squad). Rejoice.


Agreed. Character sniping always pissed me off, and I felt bad when it accidently worked in my favor. It also speeds the game up when you play those people that always remove models from the rear. Because I always like to play by the rules (even to a flaw), I've many times had to say "well, technically, no one had range to that guy". This rule change makes me happy.

Azzy
11-06-2008, 21:20
It's actually fairly easy to keep your flying stands from breaking. It's usually the little tip on the top of the post that snaps off, so I found that all I had to do was use a pin vice and drill straight down into the post from the top - about 1cm is generally sufficient. Superglue your favorite pinning material in there (paperclip) and snip off the excess. I have yet to have any flying bases break on me once this trick is applied - and I have a few LS typhoons with the old metal missile launchers which used to eat stands for breakfast.

Never having any models with flying bases in my army, I never had to even think about this. Now, with Deffkoptas in the starter box, this is a nice little trick to know before hand. Thanks for the heads up. :)

Squallish
11-06-2008, 22:11
Your signature says "Life's too short to play 40K with cheesmongering toolbags"... Guess what cheesmongering toolbaggeries were removed by the new rule in question? If you said "range sniping", "vehicle sniping", and "terrain sniping", give yourself a cookie!

GW plugged a big, annoying hole here, and did so with a rule that can be easily rationalized (you get shot as you're moving around, so individual model positioning isn't important, but the overall positioning of the squad). Rejoice.

Meri

But.. opened it back up again by making characters *have* to attach to avoid fire. Always fire at the Character's squad to force morale checks for sometimes triple the points rewards!

Meriwether
12-06-2008, 12:44
I actually like that, too. Characters running around by themselves has always been silly.

Meri

Democratus
12-06-2008, 15:02
What is amusing is the contradiction provided by the LOS rules. They say that any model in a unit can be wounded because the unit is moving around and their positions are abstract. And yet, you use a laser pointer to determine if your model can draw LOS to the left leg of an enemy model. If the model is 'abstract and moving around' why the heck insist on this kind of precision when shooting a model? It's a bit hypocritical.

Meriwether
12-06-2008, 15:16
Abstraction is necessary to make the game playable.

You use the laser pointer to determine if your *unit* can see the other *unit*, then shoot unit to unit. I have no problem with this abstraction at all.

Meri

VikingThor
12-06-2008, 15:22
My opinion doesn't count for much in the grand scheme of game creation, but it is my impression that the base of the model along with it's actual height represents the space it takes up...whether it is a pin sticking out of a base or a solid cylinder of greenstuff 1.5 inch tall. The models are to make stuff look cool and to be able to tell the difference between differently equiped ones. That being said. Unless it's a special case where the person is proxying a model to test it before purchase, I usually expect my opponents models to be fully built. Even in the case of a proxy, they have to use a similarly sized model to represent it. No Bloodthirster represented by a ratling garbage.

I agree that the rules seem contradictory with the laser pointer.

Democratus
12-06-2008, 16:42
Abstraction is necessary to make the game playable.

You use the laser pointer to determine if your *unit* can see the other *unit*, then shoot unit to unit. I have no problem with this abstraction at all.


If you were simply shooting at a unit, then you should be allowed to draw LOS to the space between models. After all the unit is moving around and the models don't really represent the only space they occupy per GW.

But since they specifically require you to draw precise LOS to the head, body, or legs of a particular model they are ignoring the entire "abstract" concept that they strive to maintain in other aspects.

There's 10 men in that squad over there that you can annihilate...but only if you are able to see the right thigh of Lt. Redshirt!

It's a silly contradiction.

Meriwether
12-06-2008, 17:10
I agree that it could be even more consistent, but being able to draw LOS to the space between models, instead of the models themselves, brings its own set of argument-inducing mania to the table.

Is it perfect? No sir. Does it work ok? Yeah. Does it make total sense? No. Is it a reasonable game mechanic? Yes.

That's my two cents.

Meri

Awesome Mike
13-06-2008, 16:54
I agree totally with Meriwether. This is a game after all and it is meant to work mechanically, not in real world terms. Otherwise we would have to roll for each individual shooter as he targets an individual model. Warhammer is a game of units, not individuals.