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The Red Scourge
11-06-2008, 10:39
Going to play a fun scenario this weekend, which is going to involve 3 Khorne Champions on juggers in a unit of 20+ warhounds going to be allied to a High Elf player with three mages in chariots to boost it all up.

And then it dawned on me how about ranks?

Would i have to go like this (J=Champ on Jugger, W=Warhound):

WJJJW
WWWWW
WWWWW
WWWWW
WWWWW

Or since the juggers have a wider base, could I go like this and keep the rank bonus?

JJJ
WWWWW
WWWWW
WWWWW
WWWWW
WW

Malorian
11-06-2008, 12:06
The first one is correct. Unless otherwise stated you have have the same number of models as the front rank in the following ranks.

Lord Aries
11-06-2008, 13:05
I run champs on exalted steeds in dog units, all the time. It works well, and is pretty good.

OldMaster
11-06-2008, 13:10
Allied with High Elves? :eyebrows:
Hypnosis?

Must be a VERY large battle... and how is it ever possible that the front rank is wider in space than the next ones?

Lord Aries
11-06-2008, 13:58
Yeah it should look like this.


DDCCD
DDCCD
DDDDD
DDDDD
DDDDD



D= Warhound
C= Champ on 50mm mount

OldMaster
11-06-2008, 14:20
So, it must be at least 200 mm wide? 3x50 and 2x25? Or isn't it necessary to include the hounds in the front rank?

EvC
11-06-2008, 15:02
There's no rules guidance on this. Since you're playing a fun scenario, do what you feel is right. Personally as it's for fun I think having three Juggernaut killing machines in the front rank will be quite a powerful unit, so try and ensure that at least one hound is in the front rank ;)

Lord Aries
11-06-2008, 15:17
There IS rules guidance on this, there have been many many rulings on the issue, and some people just ignore them i guess...


A Character riding a Jugger rides in on a 50mmx50mm base. The Hounds are 25x50mm bases. The character basically takes up the space that 2 hounds WOULD take up. You count the space he takes up for ranks etc the same way as the rest. You need to be 5 models wide for ranks, so you will need 3 dogs +the jugger in the front rank, and 5 dogs in each other rank.


Front of your unit will be 125mm wide.

OldMaster
11-06-2008, 15:30
I thought he wanted to include all the three juggers in the front rank of one unit...

ZeroTwentythree
11-06-2008, 15:36
There IS rules guidance on this, there have been many many rulings on the issue, and some people just ignore them i guess...



OK, I'll take the bait.

On what page of the rulebook or in what FAQ can I find this the "rules guidance" and "many rulings"?

EvC
11-06-2008, 15:38
There IS rules guidance on this, there have been many many rulings on the issue, and some people just ignore them i guess...

Any need for the hostility, really?

Rules guidance = specific rules for Screaming Bell and Slann (Both very special models), plus 6th edition FAQs. In case you haven't noticed, we're in 7th edition now, and GW have not deigned to comment on the issue. There is NO guidance in the current rules, beyond statements that every rank (other than the last) must have the same number of models in it, and a unit must be 5 models-wide to gain a rank bonus.

If you can point us towards any legit and up-to-date guidance that gives us a ruling, you'll be the first.

T10
11-06-2008, 15:57
Until then, please note that most players are fine with using Slann, Grail Reliquae and other big-base models as... uh, models for handling mixed base units. Just bear in mind that other people are likely to have other opinions.

-T10

Malorian
11-06-2008, 16:31
I run my temple guard 6 wide to ensure that the 'slann ranks' are 5 models wide, however I don't have 6 models in the 'slann ranks' because it's covered by a special rule in my army book.

Juggers in a flesh hound unit isn't covered other than needing to have the same number of models as the front rank in following ranks. Your unit will look funny, but that's the rules as far as I know.

Lord Aries
11-06-2008, 17:39
Ok, I can prove it 2 ways.... I didn't realize he wanted to have 3 champs on juggers, that changes things... i thought he wanted to run just 1 champ on jugger... but no matter.

RAW- By the rules as written, you would be correct to assume that the unit would have to have 5 MODELS, and the 3 champs on juggers would only count as 1 model, and therefore the front would be 200mm wide (50+50+50+25+25) with each further rank being only 125mm wide (5x25.) This is how some of you read and interpret the rules, and I can understand... but its wrong, and here is why.


1. Rulings and FAQS- There is a group called the "DIREWOLF" and they pretty much eat sleep and drink errata and FAQ. In fact, now GW pretty much lets them write the new FAQs. Go look at any new FAQ on the GW website and it will have a thanks to Direwolf for all the Q&As... The reason why they do this, is for the last 10 years or so, the people running the direwolf are also people running most of the largest tournaments in the country. For a long time, the INDY GT's have had almost 10 times as many participants than the official GTs. I run one of the tournaments each year. There is a "Bible" of rulings and FAQs that is at each of the tournaments... So look to their ruling to determine questions like this if you like. Their credibility is due to both GW's acknowledgment of their rulings, as well as the consensus from the players all across the country playing with them. Their ruling basically uses the idea of Slann or other larger than the RnF models to determine the idea that other monster based things that join a unit take up space equivalent.

2. Maybe you don't like the Direwolf and their FAQs- Maybe you like to use RAI, and make up rules that fit your needs?

Pg. 6- Forming up a unit- It explains how to form a unit using ranks and files. It also talks about how the RnF rules apply to units, and not always to characters. "as far as possible, the unit always has the same number of models in each rank, and where not possible it is always the rear rank that is left imcomplete." So far, not proven my point, but lets continue.

Pg. 38. Extra Rank- Basically all you need to know is that it counts ranks BEYOND the first that have 5 models, in order to get ranks. It never says your front rank needs to be 5 models wide in order to get ranks, but according to the rules up on page 6, this should not happen, because you should always have 5 "models" in the front. So we continue.

Pg. 72/73. Characters Joining Units - "to join a unit of troops, a character has only to move so that he is touching it. Once he has joined the unit, the model is automatically placed in its front rank. " It doesn't explain exactly what happens to the model(s) that are displaced by the character. I find this odd, but lets look into this. I have never seen anything, other than the models displaced are placed into the rear of the unit. I invite anyone to find an 'offical ruling' as to what you are supposed to do... I think most people do the same however. However, I know what you deffinitely do NOT do when a character is deployed to the front of the unit, and that is re-form the unit. When you deploy the unit, you would deploy just the warhounds first, with 5 models in the front rank. Then when the characters were dropped into the unit, they simply displace models to the rear. It never says that if for some reason you don't have 5 models in the front of the unit you have to re-form... However now you have 2 contradicting rules, and that sucks. So, I can't continue to make a case by the RAW, because RAW never says you displace models to make room for characters. (or it might but I didn't see it). Pg 6, said we pretty much always have to have the same number of "models" in each rank, including the first, but never says what you should do if something causes you to have less than so. I know you can't deploy or CHOOSE to make each rank different, but based on how characters are placed into units, in the front and displacing RnF models, I think it forces you to have the front be weird.


I made my judgement that you can have 3 juggers in the front and 5 models behind, because the unit is deployed as 5 models wide (which is legal), and the characters displace the models in the front when you deploy them into the unit, or have them join. You can still counts the ranks as true ranks with a full +1 bonus, because the rules for getting the +1 never say anything about the front being 5.


I mostly base my judgement based on tournament rulings from Direwolf and Indy GTs.... but I think this write up shows that there is not a simple RAW answer... because there is not we are left to INTERPRET the rules, something we often do, but are not supposed to. By the official FAQ rules, if you can't find the answer anywhere, roll off if you are in a game, and if you are not in a game, exhaust all possible resources until you either find it, or don't. If you don't your club ought to develop a house rule to cover it. My group tends to agree with what is being done in the tournaments, because we are often practicing for them, or just prefer to have a good-neutral place to resolve disputes.

Loopstah
11-06-2008, 17:52
Ok, I can prove it 2 ways....


So your proof consists of:

a) an unofficial FAQ group and some tournament house rules.
b) your interpretations of the rules because there aren't any for this situation.

Usually "proof" is a bit more concrete than that.

Malorian
11-06-2008, 17:53
1. I don't go by Direwolf until GW accepts them.

2. Everything is clear until the pg72/73 refference. Just because the front rank is changing size, does not mean it is reforming. Otherwise any time a character joined any unit of 1 rank it would count as reforming.

I think this is better shown when a smaller base character joins a larger base unit. There is obviously no way the 20mm character is going to ranks up perfectly with the 25mm unit, so all you can do is keep with the 'all ranks have the same number of models' rule and have your front rank a bit smaller.

Having a ruling in a GT does give you something to argue with your friends about though, and then you can make a house rule, but by RAW (from material published by GW) the juggers would need a flesh hound on each side for an extra large rank in this case.

Lord Aries
11-06-2008, 18:09
Well, I don't know if I've proven it one way or another, but rather gave 2 options. I don't think that there is a RAW ruling for this situation. I think there are conflicts in the RAW, and when that happens people make a RAI based ruling. You can say its covered but its obvious to me that it is not.

EvC
12-06-2008, 10:04
No, you indeed haven't proven it at all. Instead you've learnt that the rules do not in fact cover the situation (Which would not have required an essay if you'd just taken my word for it in the first place), and so my advice that they should "do what they feel is right", i.e. use a houserule, is as correct now as it was when I first typed it.

Lord Aries
12-06-2008, 11:55
Um... yeah, thats exactly what I said. There is no official or RAW answer, so either go by the direwolf ruling on the matter or house rule it for now.

Lordmonkey
12-06-2008, 12:34
It's quite legal for me to field a single mounted vampire killing machine o' doom, backed up by 30 dire wolves in single file.

The only rules restriction on your formations are that each rank must include the same number of models as the first (except the last one, of course).

If you are fielding your regiment 5 - wide, you will have 3 juggs and 2 pups in the front rank, and then 5 pups in each successive rank, ALA your first diagram.

It looks daft, but it's RAW... *spits*

ZeroTwentythree
12-06-2008, 21:02
It also prevents people from stacking the entire front "rank" with hardcore combat characters then padding the back "ranks" with cheap troops to get CR as well.

If someone was putting a single jugger in the front, I wouldn't care if they made it displace characters (as shown in Lord Aries first diagram.) If someone was trying to stack the unit as I just said (as shown in the OP's second diagram) I'd start getting picky about RAW. ;)

Lord Aries
12-06-2008, 23:38
I would have to agree with you.

kroq'gar
13-06-2008, 07:15
Does it say anywhere a model cannot be counted in more than one rank?

My group plays it so long as each rank has 5 models occupying it in total, you get the rank.

Condottiere
13-06-2008, 07:31
It also prevents people from stacking the entire front "rank" with hardcore combat characters then padding the back "ranks" with cheap troops to get CR as well.

If someone was putting a single jugger in the front, I wouldn't care if they made it displace characters (as shown in Lord Aries first diagram.) If someone was trying to stack the unit as I just said (as shown in the OP's second diagram) I'd start getting picky about RAW. ;)

I used pack the front ranks with Goblin heroes - it had interesting results.

The downside is that regiment becomes the focus of lot of attritioning attention.

;)