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him_15
11-06-2008, 15:40
This must has been discussed before, but I still wanna know about it.
Basically, what's the point to create a horror unit for only every 3 unsaved wounds? The means the maximum models could be created are 4 horrors, that's not even a level 1 caster wizard! and we know the average is 1-2, easy victory point for the opponent. I think two or even one unsaved wound make more senses without being too powerful..
Any thought?

blurred
11-06-2008, 15:46
Basically, what's the point to create a horror unit for only every 3 unsaved wounds?

No point really. The ability to create horrors is pretty much a drawback and not an advantage. Poorly designed spell.

OldMaster
11-06-2008, 16:12
Firestorm is useless. It really, really, really is.

Compare it with Plague Wind.....

OldMaster
11-06-2008, 16:23
hey-hey, don't swear :O
What about the other five.. Lore of Tzeentch is awesome!
Just not that one last spell :P

W0lf
11-06-2008, 23:46
The last spell is terrible :P

2d6 S5 as a 13+ and spell 6???

Do they want us chaos fans to be more angry at skaven or what?

Loopstah
11-06-2008, 23:54
That's Tzeentch for you, crazy, unpredictable and doing things for no useful purpose.

TheWarSmith
12-06-2008, 05:59
As a devoted Tzeentch player, I've now resigned myself to know that lvl6 spells in our lore will always SUCK hard compared to the others. I'd rather have something that casts 1 easier, 6" less range, and is strength 5-10. Oh wait, we already have it.

It's funny that this spell is actually brutally good for tzeentch beasts at the current moment. Create tzangors, YES please. That's a free power dice the way the beast book currently is written.

Point is, I kick myself in the PANTS when I roll 1 and 6 w/ my heralds for spells.

mortetvie
12-06-2008, 06:46
Actually, this spell is quite awesome and almost OP...

All you need is one horror to really mess up an enemies movement phase. Put it in front and angle the horror so if they charge, they are re-directed and if they don't-all the better. Or, perhaps you can draw out fanatics (or abuse frenzy). Either way, 2d6 s5 hits is pretty nice imo.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
12-06-2008, 12:11
Firestorm is HARDLY "overpowered"....:rolleyes:

It's a 13+ - which is pretty ridiculous as it is....and has a limited range of 24 inches (compared to many spells that are just "Line of Sight" or some that are "anywhere on the table", etc.).

Beyond that...2d6 STR-5 hits is "nice"...but not THAT nice because, if you think about it, a Fiery Blast does 2d6 STR-4 hits, for MUCH less casting cost (8+, I think)....and the same range...AND doesn't have the drawback of handing 50 free VP's to your opponent each time you cast the spell (and they kill your 1-2 Horrors created from the Firestorm spell).


The problem with the spell is that it does not create ENOUGH models to be a threat, and your idea about putting them at an angle is rarely going to matter since ONE (25-mm) model or 2 (50-mm), is never going to be able to stop an entire enemy block from moving around them, if they want to. The enemy (unless they are dumb) is also not going to charge your 1-2 Horrrors at some odd angle that will result in them being open for a flank charge by your other units, so that's a pipe dream to think it will be happening often (even if you rolled 100%, the most Horrors you could get is 4..which is a joke, and would still not be wide enough/etc. to mess up an enemy regiment too much - and things that AREN'T a regiment could go around even easier with a more maneuverable overall base size).

Alternatively, the enemy will just shoot your 1-2 Horrors and thank you for the 50-VP's (which, in many cases, will be more value than the 3-6 models of theirs that you managed to kill with the spell in the first place !).


The ONLY use I can see from it is to "march block" an enemy battle line for 1-turn....possibly. All it takes, IIRC, is one model within 8-inches at the start of the Movement phase to deny Marching ability to regular units. So you COULD do that with it. . .

But here's the problem...the only things that can cast it with any chance of success are Level-4 Horror blocks (which are over 400 points !!) and require you to field 40 of them (36+), in most cases, to be viable beyond the first enemy shooting/magic phase as a Level-4..................OR a Lord of Change (Level-4 Wizard).

The issue here is that the Horror blocks are too expensive to buy the extra Level of Wizard in most games, when ALL you "really" are getting is the sub-par Firestorm spell....a Level-3 block is perfect as you get access to the REAL "#6" spell from the Lore of Tzeentch: Bolt of Change ! :evilgrin:



This is the problem with the Lord of Change bothering with Firestorm too. With his huge Flying movement...he can place himself (easily) within 18-inches of an enemy unit on Turn-1/2 anyways...and at that range, Bolt of Change is always going to be better than T-Firestorm, and is slightly easier to cast !

The extra 6-inches and potential Marchblocking is all that Firestorm has going for it...and for 13+...I don't think it's all that impressive.

What would have been nice ?

13+ - 3d6 STR-5 hits // 24-inches

THAT would have made it worthy of 13+.



OR...keep the "create Horrors" concept, and the 2d6 STR-5 hits, and just say "for every unsaved wound caused by this spell on the enemy unit", a Horror model is created - forming a unit within 3-inches of the targeted enemy unit, etc." .

IE - instead of the mostly useless every 3-wounds ....make it "wound caused = Horror" - - - this is how it was in playtesting, IIRC...and I have no idea why they gimped it so in the formal release/book.

theunwantedbeing
12-06-2008, 12:20
It's just a terrible spell.
Only worth doing if you want to do some extra damage and have a whole bunch of dice left at the end of the phase.

Indigo fire is miles better.

Firestorm...not overpowered.
Indigo fire...overpowered.

W0lf
12-06-2008, 13:32
Indigo fire was hardly overpowered.

S2 and hard to cast. Plus limited range.

Oh and lets not mention the newly created horrors died pretty much first round. It was a very evry good spell but far from 'overpowered'

God people really need to grow up with this 'X is really good! Broken, overpowered, cheesey NERF!'

Dominatrix
12-06-2008, 17:57
Well the #6 spell sucked hard in 6th edition so I had a small measure of hope that in 7th this would be fixed. Guess not! Maybe it is some sort of internal company joke at GW hq:

"Hey guys time for the 7th edition tzeentch lore!"
"Yayyyy this time every edition really cracks me up!"
"The one who designs the worst #6 spell gets free drinks right?"
"You are on but you will never do worse than my firestorm spell!"
"Ahhh s*** you win man, hahaha it doesn't get more stupid than this. Let's put it in the lore and head for the bar."

...

The rest is as they say history...

Reinnon
12-06-2008, 19:51
it has limited uses, march blocking being the main use - compared to bolt of change one must ask why one would ever use firestorm.

however, it does have it uses as a disruption spell - with twin heads its basically a 11+ spell, so isn't too expensive to cast.

There are better spells out there, and tbh the lore of tzeentch has some really impressive spells so i suppose there had to be one spell with limited use.

TheWarSmith
13-06-2008, 01:13
I don't think most of us are saying that it needs to be massively upped, because honestly, the rest of the lore makes up for it MASSIVELY. One of the best level 1,4, and 5 spells in the games.

If Firestorm was to be amped up, it could only come at a nerf to the other spells in the lore. Otherwise, we'd have a monstrously overpowered lore, with the WORST spell arguably being Glean Magic(not saying it's bad, just not as good compared w/ the others except firestorm).

And to the march blocking:
Yeah, 36+ horrors could do it, but why would you EVER want 40 horrors in one unit? I'd take 2 x 20 every time so I could try to cast bolt of change TWICE.

Kairos and Lords of Change could do it, but why not just fly them around to get the march block.

Mozzamanx
13-06-2008, 12:32
I think that a fix would be that it creates Flamers rather than Horrors.

Cmon, spawning up to 4 Flamers is actually useful, not to mention the fact that they can actually shoot stuff without requiring 5 models.

Lijacote
13-06-2008, 12:38
I think that a fix would be that it creates Flamers rather than Horrors.

Cmon, spawning up to 4 Flamers is actually useful, not to mention the fact that they can actually shoot stuff without requiring 5 models.

... Now that I think about it, it'd make infinitely more sense for it to create Flamers. FIRESTORM? Fire! Flame! FLAMERS! Guh!? :D

It'd also be more useful. I'm almost praying for a revision.

Dominatrix
13-06-2008, 15:11
My suggestion would be to either keep it at 2d6 hits but one horror is created for each wound caused (not three), or keep the one horror per three wounds thing but make it cause a number of hits equal to the number of enemy models in the target unit. That should bring it in line with most #6 spells.

Red_Duke
13-06-2008, 15:41
Meh, most lores have at least 1 sucky spell - look at lore of vampires for instance, you really don't need much beyond spell 2 really... gaze of nagash is ok, but 0-2 is where its all at - raise new zombies, raise, raise raise, raise... and danse :D Seriously, they could knock off spells 4-6 and i wouldnt give a damn.

Tzeench however i think has a pretty good lore - especially having a magic missile cast on a 4 that can potentially instalkill chariots as spell 1!

Chicago Slim
13-06-2008, 15:46
My suggestion would be ... keep the one horror per three wounds thing but make it cause a number of hits equal to the number of enemy models in the target unit. That should bring it in line with most #6 spells.

Whoa!! "Every model in the target unit takes a S5 hit"???!!?!?ELEVEN!!!

That'd be a HUGELY powerful spell: consider what happens when you cast it on, say, a 30-strong human or elven infantry unit (about 300-400 points of troops): 5-out-of-6 of them take a wound, at -2 armor save (which leaves most infantry with no same remaining). One-shot spell drops 30 infantry to FIVE survivors?

NOTHING in Warhammer has that kind of stopping power in a single shot.


That said, I think you're right about one-for-one horrors: that seems to me like it'd be fine, and I'll probably offer my local Daemon player a house-rule on it, at least to play-test it for ourselves.

I also REALLY like the 3-for-1 Flamers idea. I'll definitely allow that as a house-rule!


@WarSmith: good to see you again. When you gonna bring that Tzeentchiness of yours over for a game? Also, the new Beasts patch has a couple of huge problems: that handful of Tzaagors are created during the magic phase, so they don't generate dice until the next turn. They are created already in combat (IIRC), so in most cases the first thing they do is lose combat, and break (giving the target unit a free pursuit move, during the Tzeentch player's turn!)

OldMaster
13-06-2008, 16:35
I will not be surprised if it will say in the Deamon FAQ that it actually was meant to create Flamers, lol...

:| That would be awesome.

Razhem
13-06-2008, 17:46
I will not be surprised if it will say in the Deamon FAQ that it actually was meant to create Flamers, lol...

:| That would be awesome.

Or even screamers, both options would be a bloody revolution (specially the flamers)

Dominatrix
13-06-2008, 17:50
@ Chicago Slim.

You are probably right about the one wound per model thing. Then again your 30 strong T3 unit is the worst possible recipient for such a spell. With higher T, better armor saves, or just plain less models per unit the effects are significantly lessened. Or perhaps if this was how the spell worked, its strength would be reduced to 4? Anyway it was an idea, and a hasty one at that.

The other idea about 1 horror per wound caused sounds better. Anyway I really don't care that much what will be done about it (although I would bet it will stay like that; GW is allergic to errata and FAQs). The spell really needs something though. A 13+ to cast spell that gives 50 VP to your opponent is lame beyond words.

Dark_Mage99
13-06-2008, 19:31
Well, the horrors can block units, march block, and come in handy for a number of things. As an undead player, I a used to the joys of new units :D

It might not be brilliant, but you can't really go around creating level 1 wizards eveywhere who can then cast spells themselves.

2D6 Strength 5 hits is pretty nice, and the added marchblocking and redirection is prett swish as well. Shouldn't really be 13+, but it's not as bad as everyone is making out.

Dominatrix
13-06-2008, 20:44
March blocking? :wtf: Please... In an army where everything can potentially fly and thus move 20' can you really stand there with a straight face and tell me the spell is useful for its march bloking properties? :rolleyes:

Bottom line is you can't polish a **** no matter how hard you try. The spell should not be #6 no matter how you look at it. A casting value of 9-10 might make it worthy of considering. As it stands now they might as well leave it out of the book.

OldMaster
13-06-2008, 22:34
Now, I look closely at it, GW just messed up all the Lores >.>
I mean, there are like three spells used twice...

And also, is there any way to use Miasma of Pestilence?

Horus38
13-06-2008, 23:16
And also, is there any way to use Miasma of Pestilence?

You're joking right? That spell is amazing on a GUO or palanquin mounted herald.

I'll concur, firestorm of tzeentch would be more useful and fluffy if it created flamers. I was rather dumbfounded by the spell, it's seems to me the designer of it didn't have a clue about what he was doing...

TheWarSmith
13-06-2008, 23:26
It might not be brilliant, but you can't really go around creating level 1 wizards eveywhere who can then cast spells themselves.

I'd like to know where you're getting lvl 1 wizards from out of Firestorm, as the most it can creates is 4 horrors, which is not enough for lvl 1.

Dark_Mage99
14-06-2008, 00:32
I never said you could. Some people were complaining that you can only make 4 at best, which isn't enough for wizards. I was just saying that you can't expect a spell to make wizards for you, who could then cast spells in the very same magic phase should they be created.

decker_cky
14-06-2008, 00:38
Well...they wouldn't generate power dice, so it wouldn't really increase your magic phase. I think creating a wizard with the spell is EXACTLY what people would expect. Creating flamers seems a little powerful on the other hand. I think creating 1 horror for each wound would make the most sense, since you can still at best only reach L1.

Chicago Slim
14-06-2008, 03:40
@ Chicago Slim.

You are probably right about the one wound per model thing. Then again your 30 strong T3 unit is the worst possible recipient for such a spell.

Also, ostensibly the most common recipient. Humans, elves, skaven and undead all have T3 infantry as core-- that's eight different armies, off the top of my head, that have core T3 infantry as a backbone of their commonly-used tactics (I'm not counting Brets, or Greenskins, because a lot of players prefer cav or orcs, to the cheap infantry that those armies CAN field...)

So, I stand by my initial assessment: a spell that so certainly obliterates the most common type of unit in the game would be unbalanced.


Or perhaps if this was how the spell worked, its strength would be reduced to 4?

You're closer, now-- compare what you're suggesting, at this point, to Fists of Gork, for example (affects every model in the target unit, but at S4, and has to roll to hit for each target...)

But, it's all a bit of an academic exercise. Really, I just wanted to point out the dangers of off-the-cuff second-guessing, as opposed to actually playtesting things for a month or two...

Dominatrix
14-06-2008, 08:36
But, it's all a bit of an academic exercise. Really, I just wanted to point out the dangers of off-the-cuff second-guessing, as opposed to actually playtesting things for a month or two...

Well this is why forums like these exist. ;) We talk, present our opinions or just throw ideas and unless the thread gets sidetracked and goes off topic something good may actually come out of the process. The suggestions in my original post where things I came up with in a couple of minutes, so it is quite natural if one of them was over the top. That's why playtesting is required like you correctly pointed out. Now if only there was a way of making the chaps at GW realize the joys of playtesting...

Fulgrim's-Chosen
14-06-2008, 11:11
The rumours I'd heard from supposed Playtesters (or those who knew them) was that it WAS (for a long while) "STR-5 hit for every model in the unit, with 1/3 becoming Horrors" - this was what was reported on several Warhammer podcasts/reviews at the time - and in forums, etc. in some places.

Apparently GW changed it at the very last minute - but they took it from "too strong" to "oh my gosh, that stinks !!!" in doing so.


I'd also heard the original Obsidian Armor was "ALL Magical Items (including Weapons) lose their effectiveness when in base contact with the Daemon and count as mundane items/weapons of their type".


But that was CLEARLY too much, so that got altered too, in the final printing ;)

Dominatrix
14-06-2008, 11:36
This seems to be in agreement with the things I have heard as well. Apparently the daemon book was a lot stronger and it was toned down quite a bit the last minute.

Chicago Slim
14-06-2008, 11:50
I'd also heard the original Obsidian Armor was "ALL Magical Items (including Weapons) lose their effectiveness when in base contact with the Daemon and count as mundane items/weapons of their type".


But that was CLEARLY too much, so that got altered too, in the final printing ;)

High Elves used to have the Null Stone, which was 80 points (after their 20% discount) and did the same thing, but at 6" range, and also preventing casting in that range.

Then again, High Elves no longer do have the Null Stone, so maybe that tells us something... I never brought it, myself, because I didn't think it'd be worth it.

On the other hand, a High Elf able to turn magic items into nerf isn't quite so intimidating as a Greater Daemon able to do the same...

Reinnon
14-06-2008, 13:22
er...the high elves do have the null stone if i remember right.

TheWarSmith
14-06-2008, 16:14
Not sure if HE still have the null stone in some form. Memory serves me they do, but it's quite a bit different.

Also consider that I believe the null stone voids the user's magic items too, so you spend money on a lord and all you have is just that, a lord that can't be attacked by magic things w/in 6".

I think there could have been a VERY healthy medium between "s5 to every model in the unit" and "2d6 S5".

Let's face it. Most people are going to cast this spell on larger infantry blocks(usually), so you went from an average of 20 hits down to 7. That's going from around 4-5 horrors created(a chance for a functional unit) down to 1-2(free stupid VP).

The least they could have done is NOT count them as VP.

Question. Could this spell be used last turn to contest a board quarter? i.e. if your enemy had a board quarter uncontested, and you cast this at him and generated a horror or 2, it would be a scoring unit?

Dominatrix
14-06-2008, 17:55
Question. Could this spell be used last turn to contest a board quarter? i.e. if your enemy had a board quarter uncontested, and you cast this at him and generated a horror or 2, it would be a scoring unit?

I will disappoint you but alas no. First of all in case your opponent has a turn after your last he can try to eliminate the horrors (not that hard really). But even if he can't, your horror unit will not be US5 so you can't use it to contest a table quarter. Not to mention the fact that even 2 horrors is a lot to ask when using this spell... Or that casting a 13+ value spell is just begging for a miscast...

Let's face it, try as we might this spell is hopeless. There is nothing appealing about it. Here is to hoping that GW gets it right in 8th edition (missed it at 6th and 7th but there is some shred of hope right?)...

Dark_Mage99
14-06-2008, 19:19
Actually, yes it could.

The Firestorm only creates Horrors after panic tests, which means at the end of the magic phase. This means that multiple castings of the spell will add to the same horror unit, and if you can get it off enough you can create above unit strength five and even enough to make them count as a wizard.

Only just realised this - in fact my brother pointed it out. If you have enough firepower, you can indeed create big units of Horrors with the spell.

Razhem
14-06-2008, 19:29
Actually, yes it could.

The Firestorm only creates Horrors after panic tests, which means at the end of the magic phase. This means that multiple castings of the spell will add to the same horror unit, and if you can get it off enough you can create above unit strength five and even enough to make them count as a wizard.

Only just realised this - in fact my brother pointed it out. If you have enough firepower, you can indeed create big units of Horrors with the spell.

What makes you think you can add those horrors to an already existing unit? It's not me being snarky, but I just don't see how the wording would allow it, it wouldn't make it the best thing ever, but at least it's a bit more of a use.

TheWarSmith
14-06-2008, 19:31
Actually, yes it could.

The Firestorm only creates Horrors after panic tests, which means at the end of the magic phase. This means that multiple castings of the spell will add to the same horror unit, and if you can get it off enough you can create above unit strength five and even enough to make them count as a wizard.

Only just realised this - in fact my brother pointed it out. If you have enough firepower, you can indeed create big units of Horrors with the spell.

Yeah, only need to get lucky and have 2 wizards that can cast it.

sulla
14-06-2008, 22:09
Indigo fire was hardly overpowered.

S2 and hard to cast. Plus limited range.

Oh and lets not mention the newly created horrors died pretty much first round. It was a very evry good spell but far from 'overpowered'


Casting that spell meant that your enemies got to sacrifice 2-3 models for an almost guaranteed overrun in your combat phase. Nobpody I knew even bothered to dispel it...


I will not be surprised if it will say in the Deamon FAQ that it actually was meant to create Flamers, lol...

:| That would be awesome.

Quick, somebody get over to direwolf and whisper that into their ear, then they can whisper it in GW's ear and Tzeench wins...

Lijacote
14-06-2008, 22:13
Yeah, only need to get lucky and have 2 wizards that can cast it.

... Even then, they're separate castings and there's nothing to support combining these potential Horror units. Nothing, that I know of at least.

Dark_Mage99
14-06-2008, 23:52
Well...they wouldn't generate power dice, so it wouldn't really increase your magic phase. I think creating a wizard with the spell is EXACTLY what people would expect. Creating flamers seems a little powerful on the other hand. I think creating 1 horror for each wound would make the most sense, since you can still at best only reach L1.

They would certainly add a power dice if they were big enough to count as a wizard.



What makes you think you can add those horrors to an already existing unit? It's not me being snarky, but I just don't see how the wording would allow it, it wouldn't make it the best thing ever, but at least it's a bit more of a use.

I was just offering a different take on it - and in any case, it's not an existing unit. You can potentially cast it multiple times before any horrors are created in the first place: after panic tests, wounds are turned into horrors. Panic tests are taken at the end of the phase. So horrors will be created at the end of the phase, after all Firestorms have been cast. The more I read it, the more I think this is plausible.

TheWarSmith
15-06-2008, 00:24
Casting that spell meant that your enemies got to sacrifice 2-3 models for an almost guaranteed overrun in your combat phase. Nobpody I knew even bothered to dispel it...

How are you overrunning a horror unit that you didn't charge? The indigo fire created horrors counted as charging so even if they died/popped, there's NO persuit/overrun possible.

Firestorm however provides an easy overrun if placed within front arc

Dominatrix
15-06-2008, 01:08
They would certainly add a power dice if they were big enough to count as a wizard.


:wtf: Assuming you succesfully cast the spell on 13+, it is not dispelled or scrolled, you roll two sixes for hits (yeah right...), all twelve hits wound (yeah right x2...) and your opponent fails all his armor saves (yeah right x3...), congratulations you have just created 4 horrors! So go ahead and cast it two more times rolling nothing but sixes in order to get the 10 horrors needed for a lvl 1 caster. How you consider this even remotely plausible is beyond me. :rolleyes:

Lijacote
15-06-2008, 11:33
:wtf: Assuming you succesfully cast the spell on 13+, it is not dispelled or scrolled, you roll two sixes for hits (yeah right...), all twelve hits wound (yeah right x2...) and your opponent fails all his armor saves (yeah right x3...), congratulations you have just created 4 horrors! So go ahead and cast it two more times rolling nothing but sixes in order to get the 10 horrors needed for a lvl 1 caster. How you consider this even remotely plausible is beyond me. :rolleyes:

6 horrors. 6 horrors are needed.

Dominatrix
15-06-2008, 11:43
Well that's what happens when you try to write rule related posts that late. :o I stand corrected thank you Lijacote! With 10 being the minimum unit size allowed it got a little blurry in my mind I am afraid. Anyway back on topic even if that is the case I still can't see how can anyone think that casting this spell multiple times is something likely to happen.

Dark_Mage99
15-06-2008, 13:43
Well, it's not likely to happen I suppose. But it could still happen, especially in larger battles.

A Lord of Change could cast it, followed by a giant unit of horrors, and followed by another giant unit of horrors. Supposing they were all cast, you could essentially create new wizard units.

TheWarSmith
15-06-2008, 18:10
Yeah, um, I'd MUCH rather cast bolt of change from all 3 of those guys instead, cause you'd obliterate said unit(s).

The_Dark_Lord
15-06-2008, 19:30
i find it a handy spell, yes it is hard to cast, but considering one of my most common enemies is skaven, its awsome being able to create fear causing units 3" away, also they cannot march. i agree with darkmage that you could cast it multiple times to create a mage, but would again prefer to cast bolt of change, however, your oponent will, WILL, save dispel dice for this, whereas you could catch him/her off guard with multiple castings of Firestorm. and besides, boon will be cast fairly easily and if your lucky will give you a few more dice...whats to say you couldnt cast both with each wizard? (lvl 4's obviously not lvl 2's)

TheWarSmith
16-06-2008, 01:47
Okay, this "multiple casting" thing should really be put to rest. First off, you should ONLY have 2 lvl 4s if you're playing well above 2k.

A lvl 4 horror unit is a SOAK of points. Why not get 2 units of 20 and cast flickering fire and gift of chaos.

Rubberchrist
16-06-2008, 08:02
I'm with the Dark Lord on this one... Firestorm is freaking sweet. It just looks less sweet next to all of your extra-cool-super-sweet-with-cookies-on-top spells that are in the Lore of Tzeentch.

The ability to pop even one fear causing unit anywhere near an enemy is great. 2d6 S5 wounds is killer too... I know my Warp lightning literally evaporates pretty much anything I shoot it at that isn't a character and it has the same dice/damage as firestorm. Comparing my average use of the spell, thats two horrors placed anywhere around a unit.

Set up for a charge with a different unit next turn? instant rear chargers... +2 CR. Want to tie up the unit for a round either redirecting them or making them maneuver around a unit? place it awkwardly and force your opponent to make the hard choice. NEVER underestimate the power of forcing your opponent to change their plan.

Yeah, I can sort of see the validity of whining about the 13+ casting value, but considering that the average Tzeentch list I've seen has WELL over 10 Power Dice.... That is a pretty limp argument. Toss 4 dice at it, and you still have enough dice to cast 3 of your other spells.

And as a side note.... Glean Magic is not useless unless you are unimaginative and/or have no clue about your opponent's lore.

-R

Dominatrix
16-06-2008, 09:00
I'm with the Dark Lord on this one... Firestorm is freaking sweet. It just looks less sweet next to all of your extra-cool-super-sweet-with-cookies-on-top spells that are in the Lore of Tzeentch.

Actually compared to all the other spells in the lore who range from "useful" to "very good" the #6 spell definitely is a joke. There is absolutely no reason to use this, ever, and not use gift of chaos.



The ability to pop even one fear causing unit anywhere near an enemy is great. 2d6 S5 wounds is killer too... I know my Warp lightning literally evaporates pretty much anything I shoot it at that isn't a character and it has the same dice/damage as firestorm. Comparing my average use of the spell, thats two horrors placed anywhere around a unit.

I would love to see this "average use of the spell" of yours. Statistically with average dice rolling and against a unit that is NOT a number of naked goblins, firestorm will never create two horrors. You will be lucky if you create just one.

And to make this "sweet" spell even "sweeter l0lz" the single S3T3W1 horror you create gives your opponent 50 VP when he kills it. It is like saying to your opponent "sorry for killing a couple of your models, here is 50 VP back to cover your loss :rolleyes:".

And warp lightning is cast on a 9+ for 2d6 hits not the ridiculous 13+. I would much rather have plaguewind from the skaven list instead of this joke of an "ultimate" spell.


Set up for a charge with a different unit next turn? instant rear chargers... +2 CR. Want to tie up the unit for a round either redirecting them or making them maneuver around a unit? place it awkwardly and force your opponent to make the hard choice. NEVER underestimate the power of forcing your opponent to change their plan.

Try to be realistic here. Units that deserve the treatment you mention are not going to suffer that many loses from firestorm. So the 0-1 horrors you will create if used as rear chargers will just provide free CR for the opposition. There goes the +2 from rear... And to suggest you will tie up a unit with your horror is not even worth discussing...


Yeah, I can sort of see the validity of whining about the 13+ casting value, but considering that the average Tzeentch list I've seen has WELL over 10 Power Dice.... That is a pretty limp argument. Toss 4 dice at it, and you still have enough dice to cast 3 of your other spells.

Every army can go heavy magic and get more than 10 PD. That doesn't mean throwing 4 of them to the garbage is a good idea. This spell is not worth spending 4 dice on it plain and simple. The end result doesn't make up for the cost. As I said you just can't polish a ****.

Lijacote
16-06-2008, 12:22
+2 CR from the rear doesn't mean anything if it's you know, Horrors doing the rearing. 5+ ward, no armour save, toughness 3 and ws 3? :D FREE CR!!!

It'd be another story if they were enough to cancel ranks, but for that you'd need at least two castings.

Dark_Mage99
16-06-2008, 14:22
And to make this "sweet" spell even "sweeter l0lz" the single S3T3W1 horror

What on earth are you talking about?



And warp lightning is cast on a 9+ for 2d6 hits not the ridiculous 13+. I would much rather have plaguewind from the skaven list instead of this joke of an "ultimate" spell.



I don't know how any Tzeentch player can complain so much about one spell, when the rest of their Lore is incredible. There is already a 12+ "ultimate" spell in the magic missile of doom.

Rubberchrist
16-06-2008, 16:55
I would love to see this "average use of the spell" of yours. Statistically with average dice rolling and against a unit that is NOT a number of naked goblins, firestorm will never create two horrors. You will be lucky if you create just one.

Well, I seem to roll about 9 wounds on average with my WL. Even Mathhammer says you will average out strongly around 6-8 wounds, which used on anything of T 3, will wound on a 2+. You will get to keep most if not all of the wounds you do, with a -2 save mod. Of course, if the dice hate you, you will get less, if they love you you get more... I'm just saying statistically, you will do 6-8 wounds and get to keep ~81% of them against average troops.


Every army can go heavy magic and get more than 10 PD. That doesn't mean throwing 4 of them to the garbage is a good idea. This spell is not worth spending 4 dice on it plain and simple. The end result doesn't make up for the cost. As I said you just can't polish a ****.

Yeah, you can jack up any army. What I was saying is that Tzeentch starts that way. You can field FAR more than 10 PD easily. It takes me around 800 points to get 12 power dice (warpstone tokens notwithstanding), which is at the expense of any real viability in a 2k game.

-R

Dominatrix
16-06-2008, 17:51
Yeah, you can jack up any army. What I was saying is that Tzeentch starts that way. You can field FAR more than 10 PD easily. It takes me around 800 points to get 12 power dice (warpstone tokens notwithstanding), which is at the expense of any real viability in a 2k game.

-R

No arguments there. The thing is however you are making the mistake of comparing a 7th edition book with a 6th edition one. VC also have a brutal magic phase, HE can do that as well, and I am willing to bet when skaven are up for their 7th edition appearance gathering PD will be definitely easier.


I don't know how any Tzeentch player can complain so much about one spell, when the rest of their Lore is incredible. There is already a 12+ "ultimate" spell in the magic missile of doom.

What kind of faulty logic is this? Just because the other spells are decent means people should not notice when the supposedly best and because of that most difficult of them sucks? All choices in a book should be more or less valid. Each one more fitting for a certain job, but nevertheless useful. This spell has a "do not approach" sign written all over it.

And I don't see how this can be classified as complaining so much. This is a discussion about the viability (or lack of in this particular case) of a spell and some people go out of their way to prove that it can be useful, when given the choice neither they would choose it.

The_Dark_Lord
16-06-2008, 18:10
also, some people go out of their way to prove it is not useful, it is true that i only use it when i have cast the other magic missiles and want to do some damage, and i usually have +2 to casting with my lord, so it isnt really too hard to get. and why would you say it is supposed to be the 'best'? that means the nurgling creater is meant to be the best? what about if your playing VC and you cast Rancid visitation on those masses of zombies, it is pretty awsome XD besides complaining isnt going to get it changed, you could always hope for a change, but i doubt it will come.
but anyhoo, it is opinion vs. opinion

Dominatrix
16-06-2008, 18:44
Don't worry I don't have to go out my way to prove it worthless, the spell does that really well on its own. :D

By "best" I mean that traditionally the last spell in a lore is the most difficult to cast and also the most powerful when it comes to its effects. Situational occurences aside this is the general rule, not the exception.

And yes I am pretty sure that nothing will change, as another poster very correctly said in this forum "GW doesn't give a FAQ". That being said I am hoping against hope it will receive some errata sometime. Even if it doesn't, since it is my opinion that the spell sucks hard I will happily voice it whenever the issue comes up (like in this thread named very appropriately "Tzeentch's Firestorm?").

isidril93
16-06-2008, 19:41
well i good thing is that it lets you release fanatics and stuff.
you could put them behind a unit and make them attack the warmachines behind.

the12thronin
16-06-2008, 23:09
Those horrors in a rear charge will also never get the +2 for CR since you have to be US 5+ to get that bonus.

TheWarSmith
16-06-2008, 23:54
+2 CR from the rear doesn't mean anything if it's you know, Horrors doing the rearing. 5+ ward, no armour save, toughness 3 and ws 3? :D FREE CR!!!

It'd be another story if they were enough to cancel ranks, but for that you'd need at least two castings.

As is mentioned elsewhere, you're never going to get enough horrors to get flank, rear, OR rank denial. You'd need 15 kills in ONE magic phase. Oh, and on top of that, you can't charge on that turn, so you're assuming that your opponent won't just cast a fireball or something at them and nuke out 1-2 of them.

And yes, I'm going to complain, because lvl 6 spells should be, excuse my quote, "teh $h1tz0rrzzz!!!11!!11!". Lvl 6 should NEVER be the worst spell in the list.

I'd rather be trying to cast bolt of change on a 13+ than firestorm