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Shaso_Borkan
22-04-2005, 03:41
Some one told me that GW they are realising the C'tan 'The Dragon' and
'The Outsider' early next year, anyone know anything about this?

rkunisch
22-04-2005, 09:52
There has been a lot of speculation about a new C'tan. I think it is very unlikely that GW will realise both at the same moment. The stories on both of the C'tan make it difficult - but not impossible - to bring them to the table top.

The most likely approach of GW will be to release any additional Necrons when they revise their army book and this seams not to happen anytime soon.

Who is your source?

Have fun,

Rolf.

charlie_c67
22-04-2005, 09:53
Unlikely, who told you out of interest? A friend or a GW employee?

Wraith
22-04-2005, 10:02
There were rumours of the Outsiders release thanks to a now out of date seminar slide, and even hints that because of his power he would be release in Battle Fleet Gothic instead of 40K.

GW have already dumbed down the Deciever and Nightbringer's power to the extent ratling snipers can destroy their necrodermis' I think it'd be a big mistake doing the same thing to their bigger brother the Outsider.

Karhedron
22-04-2005, 12:59
I remember seeing that infamous slide "back in the day". Basically, there was a "new C'tan" scheduled for release in the autumn of 2003. During the EoT campaign in the summer of 2003, there were hints that the Outsider was awake and active again however this was not picked up on after the campaign.

However in the October 2003 WD, there was a story and scenario about Inquisitor Firebrand and a regiment of Cadians investigating some disappearing stars. The upshot of the story was that they found a Tomb World named Senschal that a C'tan was using as a base while it feasted on the nearby stars. The story ended with the Inquisitor managing to unleash a pair of planet-busting cyclotronic torpedoes at the Tomb World.

Which C'tan was involved and how Senschal fits into the scheme of Tombworlds was never elaborated but the date was given as 975M40 which would put it nearly a quarter of a century before the EoT campaign.

My guess is that with 4th edition on the horizon, they decided to hold onto this new C'tan until they could work it into a more structured release schedule. My personal oppinion is that it will be the Outsider. The Dragon is listed as the most powerful C'tan of all and awakening him would involve the fluff of the whole AdMech schism thing.

The Undying
22-04-2005, 13:16
Anyway, Nightbringer is more powerful than the Outsider. Although, Outdiers army would probably be more powerful.

Lion El Jason
22-04-2005, 14:46
and here are the rest of us hoping the C'tan are all not in the next necron codex...because they are silly.

rkunisch
22-04-2005, 15:21
and here are the rest of us hoping the C'tan are all not in the next necron codex...because they are silly.
Well, I don't think the C'tan are silly. First off, they have to be in the Codex because they belong to the background. Their battlefield incarnations are harmless enough to keep the balance and are the only way to add some character to a characterless army. And last but not least - I like the minis (although that is a matter of personal taste of course).

Have fun,

Rolf.

worldshatterer
22-04-2005, 15:28
First off, they have to be in the Codex because they belong to the background

Primarchs and the Emperor are in the background, doesn't mean they need to be in a codex for platoon level combat !

If the outsider awakens then the c'tan won't be in the codex cos he'll have eaten them, and then he'll go back to his slumber . Then the necrons can start having lords with some personality or something like that, as opposed to bringing their gods with them .

Black Ambience
22-04-2005, 15:38
Anyway, Nightbringer is more powerful than the Outsider. Although, Outdiers army would probably be more powerful.

Where did you get that? All that we know is that the Dragon is the most powerful C'tan bar none, and that the Deceiver is the weakest (and has remained so regardless of it's feeding on a variety of other C'tan).

The Dragon rightfully belongs in the same "will never be released" boat as the Emperor, The Hive Mind and Khorne. :p

Therefore, I would wager heavily on it being the Outsider. Given his insanity, it's quite possible that they could make him considerably more powerful than the present C'tan and yet balance him by making him... well, insane!

Karhedron
22-04-2005, 15:46
Therefore, I would wager heavily on it being the Outsider. Given his insanity, it's quite possible that they could make him considerably more powerful than the present C'tan and yet balance him by making him... well, insane!
An interesting idea. Give him awesome stats but a mediocre Ld. Then make him pass a Ld test every turn. If he fails then the opponent gets to control him that turn. :evilgrin:

That should represent the balance needed when fielding a guy with godlike powers and the mental stability of a terrier.

Wraith
22-04-2005, 17:54
My personal oppinion is that it will be the Outsider. The Dragon is listed as the most powerful C'tan of all and awakening him would involve the fluff of the whole AdMech schism thing.

I agree it wont be the Void Dragon, no.

It's my opinion that the C'tan invovled in the Senschal was the Nightbringer.


Anyway, Nightbringer is more powerful than the Outsider. Although, Outdiers army would probably be more powerful.

In case people mistake that comment as a fact let me make a point of highlighting that's simply your opinion.

You also fail to state at what time period you are basing your comments.

The Nightbringer has spent 60 millions starving where as the Outsider has been all content being fed via the star in his Dyson Sphere.


and here are the rest of us hoping the C'tan are all not in the next necron codex...because they are silly.

:rolleyes:


The Dragon rightfully belongs in the same "will never be released" boat as the Emperor, The Hive Mind and Khorne.

The Void Dragon yes is the most powerful.

The thing is when he does eventually awake the first thing he'd do is go to the nearest star for a snack. The nearest star to Mars is Sol. When Sol turns into a red giant as the Void Dragon feeds on it, the star will envelop Terra destroying it utterly.


An interesting idea. Give him awesome stats but a mediocre Ld. Then make him pass a Ld test every turn. If he fails then the opponent gets to control him that turn. :evilgrin:

Even if they gave him '10' in every stat, it wouldn't reflect the Outsider's fluff in my opinion... In any event he'd still be fodder for ratling snipers...

Black Ambience
23-04-2005, 00:07
The thing is when he does eventually awake the first thing he'd do is go to the nearest star for a snack. The nearest star to Mars is Sol. When Sol turns into a red giant as the Void Dragon feeds on it, the star will envelop Terra destroying it utterly.

Hence his place on the "not being released. Full stop." list, :p



It's probably for the best that Outsider is supposedly destined for BFG, but it does mean we won't get a lovely 40k scale model for him. Of all the C'tan, I think he has the most potential as a model - there's a lot you can do with a creature that has the semi-sentient essences of many other creatures flowing through it!

Wraith
23-04-2005, 00:22
Yeah I once drew a concept sketch of the Outsider - he was all floaty and metalic as per the other C'tan with revealing robes, hands out strecthed, palms up, screaming at the sky, the mouth was fairly monstrous in terms of the teeth (think shark like) but still relatively human looking in form (a bit distended). The main thing about him is (apart from the mouth) was his face or lack there off - I left the face area blank as a hint to his insanity and lack of identity while the monstrous mouth was a 'nod' to his past devouring of his brother C'tan.

He Who Laughs
23-04-2005, 00:32
Hang on, hang on, hang on...
I get what you mean about the Dyson Sphere containing a star - but why would the Laughing God entomb the Outsider in a Sphere that helped it survive? My interpretation of the "Mythical Cycles of the Eldar" stories leads me to believe that in some way, shape or form, the Laughing God was able to entomb the Outsider - why give it sustainence?

Wraith
23-04-2005, 00:48
Right, first of all you're working on the premise (presumbly not out of ignorance that it is 'the Laughing God' who is mentioned in the myth) that the Deceiver *IS* the Laughing God which remains to be proven either way.

Secondly, the Laughing God did not physically entomb the Outsider rather the Outsider retreated into his Sphere because (or so the mythic cycle implies) he had lost his mind and wanted to curl up some where safe akin to how mentally disturbed people might go curl up in the fetal position in the corner of a room.

He Who Laughs
23-04-2005, 01:08
No I'm not - the division between the Laughing God and the Deceiver is quite clear in my mind (but that debate is not for here).

The only reference to their being a "star" in the sphere with the Outsider is that when the orb begins to crack, "shafts of red light bursting from it's core" - which COULD signify a red giant star that has been munched on by the Outsider. What further references can you offer, or is your whole argument based on this one sentence?

Wraith
23-04-2005, 01:56
:rolleyes:

You'll have to forgive me for asking but have you read the Necron Codex? I mean thoroughly? While the mythic cycle does indeed make a slight nod to the Dyson Sphere and the Star all the evidence you need is in the fluff about 'Cortswaine' (from the codex) who was captured by the Outsider's Necron servants and taken inside the Dyson Sphere where he met the big guy himself and is witness to the giant red star and the vast curving inner surface of the sphere.

Negafex
23-04-2005, 02:06
i probably havent looked into it as much as all of you but if the deciever intombed the outsider maybe he gave him the star sustanance so that the diciever could manipulate the outsider at a later date when perhaps he had regained some of its sanity so the two could turn on the other remaining c'tan and then when the last c'tan are weaker the deciever could devour them. this is just speculation however

Wraith
23-04-2005, 10:37
Negafex the Deceiver did not entomb the Outsider.

First it was the Laughing God involved with the Outsider.

Secondly the Outsider CHOSE to retreat within his Dyson Sphere out of insanity inspired agroaphobia.

The Deciever knows he needs the other C'tan's help to complete the last part of the 'Great Plan' -- it admits this in the codex -- so battles among the remaing C'tan wont happen until after chaos, is completely cut off from the matterium.

Black Ambience
23-04-2005, 12:22
Indeed, though it took a while for ol' Mephet'ran actually realised he couldn't conquer the universe on his own (wow, talk about ego-deflation!). On that note, anyone have any ideas as to what made the Deceiver change his mind and decided that he did need his brothers afterall? The fact that a couple of the Talismans survived the Gothic War? The arrival of the Hive Mind?

Do you still have this sketch Wraith? It sounds rather good!

Wraith
23-04-2005, 13:52
I wonder, if I do have the sketch? Hmm.. I'll have a look although to post it I'd have to photo it as I dont have a scanner.

But yeah, personally speaking I think the Deciever needs the other C'tan to be fully functioning and operational harvesting and 'cyborging' untouchables. C'tan may or may not be gods but I believe each one knows all to well they can't be in more than one place at once. I think it is this limitation alone that drives them to work together peacefully or otherwise -- I think the Deceiver orchastrates a lot of co-operation between the C'tan without the other's always knowing they are working towards a common goal.

Magos Egal the Deceiver's alter ego in the Adeptus Mechanicus is campaining for the entrance of the noctis labrynth to be sealed up so obviously the Deceiver is not at all confident that the Void Dragon should be awoken any time soon...

Black Ambience
23-04-2005, 14:11
Of the the four C'tan, the Dragon sounds like he's the most difficult for the Deceiver to manipulate. The Deceiver is probably worried that if the Dragon awoke he'd pretty much take charge of the entire Necron operation, and there is very little that the Deceiver can do to the Dragon.

On the other hand, it's easy to lead the Nightbringer around - "Look, there's a load of living creatures that you haven't killed yet! Go sort 'em out!", and something similar with the Outsider (point him at a system and off he goes, gibbering all the way).

Karhedron
23-04-2005, 14:12
On that note, anyone have any ideas as to what made the Deceiver change his mind and decided that he did need his brothers afterall? The fact that a couple of the Talismans survived the Gothic War? The arrival of the Hive Mind?
The outcome of the Gothic war would have been my personal guess. Chaos getting their hands on the Talismans of Vaul is probably almost as bad as the Eldar getting them back from the C'tan's point of view.

Also there was no Chaos in its current form when the C'tan went into hibernation. The Enslaver plague threatened the C'tan with starvation but couldn't harm them directly (so the Deceiver claimed at least). Daemons and Psykers running around throwing warp energy about the place on the other hand might be more of a direct threat to them.

=][=Danek=][=
23-04-2005, 14:21
Wraith,I'm most interested in that drawing as well.It sounds just like I imagined him.
But I am more than a little curious as to why you feel that Cegorach and Mephet'Ran is not one and the same as well.Personaly speaking,I feel the connection is plain as day,and I'd like to hear your opinions on it.

The pestilent 1
23-04-2005, 14:58
im personally hoping for a unicron-esque model for BFG (the outsider obviously)
what would be better than consuming an entire planets life force in his necrodermis?

not that im obsessed with unicron ofcourse.

Black Ambience
23-04-2005, 15:08
not that im obsessed with unicron ofcourse.

No-one would have jumped to that conclusion... :p

Wraith
23-04-2005, 15:48
But I am more than a little curious as to why you feel that Cegorach and Mephet'Ran is not one and the same as well.Personaly speaking,I feel the connection is plain as day,and I'd like to hear your opinions on it.

Personally I tend towards them being the one in the same entity as like you I can see a huge connection however there's no deffinitive evidence and I hate it when a thread erupts into a flame war about this topic.


Wraith,I'm most interested in that drawing as well.It sounds just like I imagined him.

Ok, well I found the sketch or rather one of the later sketches which has a slightly less monstrous mouth than the one I described earlier on -

[I had to reduce the picture's size by 3/4s so it's a bit grainy - my apologies.]

Karhedron
23-04-2005, 15:55
[=Danek=][=']But I am more than a little curious as to why you feel that Cegorach and Mephet'Ran is not one and the same as well.Personaly speaking,I feel the connection is plain as day,and I'd like to hear your opinions on it.
Just to leap into this little discussion, there are several reasons why I feel they are not the same entity.

Firstly, the Eldar are an innately psychic race and their gods are/were warp-born manifestations of their gestalt conciousness. The Laughing God is the part of the Eldar psyche that mocks others for their lack of restraint. It stands aloof and sardonic as an observer of others' follies. The Eldar gods cannot be C'tan simply because the warp is imminical to the star gods. Eldar recognize their gods because they are part of their own psyche. Eldar in the presence of the Avatar (only a fraction of Khaine) become suffused with bloodlust due to the psychic resonance in their souls. Simply put, no one could masquerade as an Eldar god because they would recognize that the being in question had no psychic resonance.

Next, we know that the Laughing God was active during the Fall of the Eldar (M29-M30). The Deceiver did not awaken until M34.

Lastly, there is the link between the Laughing God and the Harlequins. When the Harlequins die, their souls merge with the Laughing God in much the same way as normal Eldar are consumed by Slaanesh. C'tan consume the bioelectric energy of living beings but have no grasp or interest in souls and psychic energy. The Harlequins would know if their souls were not being saved by Cegorach. Any unprotected Eldar soul is consumed by Slaanesh upon the death of the body. There are occasions when this has happened in the fluff and all the Eldar in the vicinity know what has happened. There is fluff in WD 127 where an entire Eldar army feels the pain of a Banshee who's Waystone is consumed by a daemon. The Harlequins would know at once if their God was a fraud.

Simply put, a C'tan could not fool an innately psychic race into believing it is one of their gods.

Wraith
23-04-2005, 16:17
Just as another perspective certainly not a challenege here are some points from the other side of the argument -

'The Eldar Gods' is a term that has two deffinitions IMHO -- the first deffinition is of a particular type of being that was created in the warp via the influence of the Eldar race's psyche. The second deffinition is simply 'Gods of the Eldar' now while C'tan and entities fitting the fist deffinition I listed are not the same it can be still argued that the C'tan or 'Yngir' as the ancient Eldar named them were indeed 'Gods of the Eldar' much like how Slannesh can be viewed as a 'God of the Eldar' without being an 'Eldar God' of the first deffinition. Harlequins have individuals who 'play' Slannesh in their dances (Solitares IIRC) and in the same way the Yngir are part of the current Eldar's culture - Dark Reapers are inspired by 'the Nightbringer', the Void Dragon aircraft of the Eldar is obviously inspired by the C'tan of the same name, and of course we have the Laughing God and the Deceiver (which isn't a deffinitive link though). The mythic cycles even show how Harlequins also have among their troop individuals who play the role of the Outsider and other lesser C'tan.

Now much of the Eldar fluff is presented as legend and certain concepts, ideas, and events are difficult to be made sense of in terms of whether it actually happened or whether it's more a story made-up by ancient Eldar to make sense of the event.

Some might point too the Laughing God's survival of Slannesh's birth for example as evidence that there's more to the Laughing God than meets the eye. Eldar legend states the Laughing God managed to 'hide' from Slannesh which to some (like me for example) sounds dubious... Some may suggest the Laughing God survived because he wasn't an Eldar God (1st deffinition) linked to the warp rather he was a C'tan and immune to Slannesh's birth.

Moving on I could go into all the similarities in persona and action that the laughing god and the Deceiver shares but we all already know about these points.

All in all there's more evidence to suggest they are different entities but there's enough (weak) evidence to suggest there is more to the connection than the fluff currently goes into.

I'm not going to quote and couter quote Karhedron's points because he has a point in much that he says -- there's just not enough evidence either way IMHO.

=][=Danek=][=
23-04-2005, 17:43
My intention was not to start any huge off topic debate,so I'll keep my opinion to myself.Suffice to say both of you have interesting perspective on GWs' fluff in regard to both species.Thank you both for sharing it.
And Wraith.Good job on that drawing,man.Very cool.

Black Ambience
23-04-2005, 17:57
Indeed, that sketch is very good Wraith! Some day I'll get round to actually converting a model for the Outsider - have put a shed load of thought into it, but for some reason I've never ordered the parts... I might do that tonight actually!

What overall colour would you picture the Outsider being? I mean the Deceiver has the monopoly on "golden" and the Nightbringer the colours of death - I've always thought of the Dragon as favouring a deep crimson (malevolent and powerful colour), but I'm at a loss for the Outsider. An etheric silver/blue scheme?

Karhedron
23-04-2005, 18:25
What overall colour would you picture the Outsider being? I mean the Deceiver has the monopoly on "golden" and the Nightbringer the colours of death - I've always thought of the Dragon as favouring a deep crimson (malevolent and powerful colour), but I'm at a loss for the Outsider. An etheric silver/blue scheme?
I would go with Blue but a sort of dark and stormy shade of blue, perhaps shot with splashes of white like lightning. That would go some way towards suggestnig his rather volatile nature.

Wraith
23-04-2005, 19:35
Thanks for the comments guys hehe :)

Colour scheme? I'm very much inspired by the Outsider's 'red giant' star - I'd go for metalic silver skin which darkens in the recesses and shadows into a deep crimson red (and becomes almost black in some areas). The material of the cloth also being crimson and fading to metalic silver in a similar way the Deceiver's 'cloth robes' merge into the metalic tone of skin. Careful though that I don't mean 'metalic pink' -- really deep crimson red and silver would be the colours for me. The bale fires around his hands would also be crimson red trying to show how the red giant has been the source of his powers over the past 60 million years. It'd also be cool to show off the red energy reflecting on his metalic skin even perhaps suggesting an inner red light.


As for the Void Dragon I've found it hard to imagine his form but I have his 'colour scheme'. He'd be a dark metalic like hematite which fades into bluey-blackness (as dark and glossy as possible) in certain areas e.g. robes etc. These areas would be pin pricked with tiny cyan/white lights suggesting that parts of his form are made up of the 'void of space' itself. His metalic skin would be emphasised with a vibrant blue again suggesting a blue light reflection either from the environment or from within his body.

The pestilent 1
24-04-2005, 00:01
What overall colour would you picture the Outsider being? I mean the Deceiver has the monopoly on "golden" and the Nightbringer the colours of death - I've always thought of the Dragon as favouring a deep crimson (malevolent and powerful colour), but I'm at a loss for the Outsider. An etheric silver/blue scheme?

well, other than orange/yellow and grey... (kudos to anyone who gets that one... :p :rolleyes: )
i had personally figured a sort of general mish-mash of colours, long streaking yellow, blue and red hashes with an overall white base.
basicly, to represent his all-encompassing hate (the primary colours you see..) with the white representing what he used to be (a "pure"" c'tan -without the whole madness born of consuming all but three of your brethren)
sounds like a horrible mess i admit, but it kinda makes sense in my head.
i'll see if i can do a coloured version of Wraiths drawing (providing you dont mind?) to give you an idea of what i mean.

daemonhuntermoe
24-04-2005, 01:19
I read about half of this before I quit on reading it. Yes, Dragon seems like one of those "never to be released guys" like any of the chaos primarchs/gods or hive mind.

So it would seem like Outsider is in. I made rules for him a while ago (about a half a year ago I think). Here they are. *starts screaming "D*MN THESE SPRING ALERGIES!"*

The Outsider:
Pts: 380
WS: 5
BS: 5
S: 8
T: 8
W: 5
I: 6
A: 4
Ld: 10
Sv: 4+

Special Rules:
C'tan: Is a C'tan & follows all the rules for them in the Necron Dex.

Insane Voices: The target enemy unit is overwhelmed by mutterings & vissions of insanity that confuse the enemy. It causes any enemy unit 12" from Outsider moves D6" in the direction the C'Tan wants. This doesn't work on any unit w/out leadership value or fearless models or tyranids or necrons.

Laughter of the Damned: The C'tan projects an energy blast in the form of insane laughter that makes a targets brain explode from withing. In shooting phase, The Outsider may use this power.
Rng: 18" Strength: 8 AP: 3 Assault D3
Against vehicles roll 2D6 for armour penetration.

This was posted up on the main GW site long ago.

Weirdboy
24-04-2005, 15:30
Very interesting posts on everyone's parts. A quiestion did come to mind though. I have read mention of the C'tan named "The Cripple" in a few places. In fact, I hadn't heard about The Outsider until today, and thought the only other 2 C'tan were Void Dragon and Cripple. Is there something I am missing, or was I just reading articles that didn't make any sense?

=][=Danek=][=
24-04-2005, 17:41
Never heard of the Cripple myself.
....Unless you're refereing to the WD story The Cripple and the Dragon,I believe it was called.But the Cripple in that title is referring to Vaul,the Eldar god of the Forge.

Weirdboy
24-04-2005, 17:52
No, our gaming club was having a trivia contest and I was searching the internet to find the 2 other C'tan and I found The Cripple as one of them in a few places.

Wraith
24-04-2005, 19:21
Early on before the Necron Codex was released it was speculated that the Void Dragon (not that his name was known at that point) was a C'tan which was crippled or otherwise injured and was hiding out on Mars being protected by an Adeptus Mechanicus cult which it used to provide it food and relative protection.

As it happens this was sort of similar to the reality of the situation although the 'crippled' bit went out the window when it was found out that the Void Dragon simply wasn't awake yet hence why he wasn't 'active' like the other C'tan.

Weirdboy
24-04-2005, 20:24
Well, I'm sure it was just mis-education on my part.

Negafex
24-04-2005, 23:46
so if ( hypothetically) they did make a void dragon model what do you all think it would look like in normal 40k?

Shaso_Borkan
25-04-2005, 06:53
so if ( hypothetically) they did make a void dragon model what do you all think it would look like in normal 40k?

If you have seen chronicles of riddick than think sumthing like the other C'tan mixed with the abilities of the Necromungas leader ( :confused: cant remember name :confused: ), you know how he 'throws' himself forward, like a ghosty thing.

Also in reply to the question of making them weaker than what they would be, they have done the same to the other C'tan and it hasn't been a problem.

XaNder
25-04-2005, 10:01
A little turn back on topic: I somewhere read - about a month ago - of one of the Studio saying he would personally like to make Necrons have a new troops unit but he couldn't give any timing of this except not too soon. Now, knowing what soon means when GW staff talks (see drones issue... now quite 6 months and going!) I wouldn't hold my breath waiting.
Cheers,
XaN

Black Ambience
25-04-2005, 22:39
If you have seen chronicles of riddick than think sumthing like the other C'tan mixed with the abilities of the Necromungas leader ( :confused: cant remember name :confused: ), you know how he 'throws' himself forward, like a ghosty thing.

Also in reply to the question of making them weaker than what they would be, they have done the same to the other C'tan and it hasn't been a problem.

Interesting idea about the comparison to the Lord Marshal Necromonger there. Had never thought along those lines... though that's probably closer to the way a C'tan would fight than say, a person punching someone or swinging a blade. Interesting...


The thing about the current C'tan being weak is that they both have logical explanations. The Deceiver has always been a weakling (hence why he had to become so deceptive etc) and the Nightbringer has gone 65 million years without food. Neither the Void Dragon nor the Outsider have any reason to be anything less than utterly dominating.

Besides, many would argue that the C'tan being weaker than they "should be" is a huge problem! :p

Shaso_Borkan
27-04-2005, 11:45
Besides, many would argue that the C'tan being weaker than they "should be" is a huge problem! :p

Yea i know but even so to keep the game balanced, and fair


And the Night bringer will just roll a 2+ to kill your entire system.........YAY

hallon_apl
28-04-2005, 09:40
And the Night bringer will just roll a 2+ to kill your entire system.........YAY

I am affraid that GW has released such huuuge forces in their Fluffiverse (Fluff Universe) with the post-Necron Codex C'tan that they will have trouble controlling them without being ridiculous.

But the Golden Throne uses it's 4+ rerollable system 'jink' save to save it! :cool:

Shaso_Borkan
29-04-2005, 12:01
I am affraid that GW has released such huuuge forces in their Fluffiverse (Fluff Universe) with the post-Necron Codex C'tan that they will have trouble controlling them without being ridiculous.
[/I]

Can you tell me more about this Fluff Universe, i like the sound of two C'tan running around like lunnies

And then the Dragon comes and eats Mars :eek: , then Terra :eek: .....on a 3+ ( munch,munch,chew,chew :cool: )

HalberdBlue
02-05-2005, 00:44
Yeah, the "new troop" rumor was from GD Atlanta. I think I read it on Dakka.

taer
03-05-2005, 03:01
Hi. I was inspired by wraiths design of The Outsider and just felt like doing my own version.
Here it is

The Outsider (http://photobucket.com/albums/y180/taer/?action=view&current=TheOutsider.jpg)

Delicious Soy
03-05-2005, 03:51
If you have seen chronicles of riddick than think sumthing like the other C'tan mixed with the abilities of the Necromungas leader ( :confused: cant remember name :confused: ), you know how he 'throws' himself forward, like a ghosty thing.Please for the love of god, do not take inspiration from that **** of a movie.

Wraith
03-05-2005, 09:56
Taer

Wow that's cool it's got a kind of 'Undead' thing going on, you can draw musculture very well.

The pestilent 1
05-05-2005, 13:09
*resists the urge to post a picture of unicron* :D :rolleyes:

as for the void dragon.. well, i have an idea, but its just as chaotic as my Outsider vision (i never did get round to colouring that picture did i?!) so i'll just draw the sod and be done with it.

Shaso_Borkan
17-05-2005, 09:10
Please for the love of god, do not take inspiration from that **** of a movie.
**** OF A MOVIE!!!!! :eek: It's an AWESOME movie!!!

Delicious Soy
17-05-2005, 09:30
Yes, if you are easily distracted by loud noises and bright colours and can ignore a cliched plot, hamfisted acting and at lame attempts at being h4rdc0r3 sk4ter dudz!!! Its a fantastic movie. :rolleyes:

Topic: Perhaps the four C'Tan will reflect a technological opposition to the Chaos gods. For example, Deceiver is an antithesis to Tzeentch, Nightbringer is very Nurglesque. Of the two not made, The outsider represents mindless destruction, a prominent aspect of Khorne. Which would leave the Dragon as Slaanesh, given that part of Slaanesh is a thirst for experience one could draw parallels to the Ad-Mech, not to mention their desire for mechanical perfection.

So its possible that it may end up being the gods of realspace vs the gods of warpspace.

Shaso_Borkan
19-05-2005, 11:20
[QUOTE=Delicious Soy]Yes, if you are easily distracted by loud noises and bright colours and can ignore a cliched plot, hamfisted acting and at lame attempts at being h4rdc0r3 sk4ter dudz!!! Its a fantastic movie. :rolleyes: QUOTE]

All the things I luv........
Oh well even if our taste in movies is different u still have some cool ideas regaring the C'tan, i mena Chaos God like.......... ;)

:D YAY! Death! Destruction! For the C'tan! :D

Alpharius
19-05-2005, 14:32
Yes, if you are easily distracted by loud noises and bright colours and can ignore a cliched plot, hamfisted acting and at lame attempts at being h4rdc0r3 sk4ter dudz!!! Its a fantastic movie. :rolleyes:

Topic: Perhaps the four C'Tan will reflect a technological opposition to the Chaos gods. For example, Deceiver is an antithesis to Tzeentch, Nightbringer is very Nurglesque. Of the two not made, The outsider represents mindless destruction, a prominent aspect of Khorne. Which would leave the Dragon as Slaanesh, given that part of Slaanesh is a thirst for experience one could draw parallels to the Ad-Mech, not to mention their desire for mechanical perfection.

So its possible that it may end up being the gods of realspace vs the gods of warpspace.

D-Soy: Excellent points!

And if GW isn't intending this, well, they should be!

This makes excellent sense, and is quite cool as well...

Kensai X
20-05-2005, 04:00
But there's one problem.

It would a really short fight all the Chaos Gods would need is just a few Ratling Snipers and the C'tan's have to*cue Monty Python* (Run Away!!!)

In my mind C'tan's are the single stupidest thing GW has done with the Necrons I mean the Space Marines could have a Chapter Master on the field, the Eldar can field a reincarnation , yet the necrons can field a frickin god. Then GW has to make these "gods" seem like weakling (relative) in the game, and SUPREME MASTERS IN OF THE WHOLE FLIPPIN UNVERSE in their fluff they can't be both it defies what they just said.

I mean really look at what the Nightbringer did he decimated Eldar Armies killed their war god and 100 other of their best warriors and eats star for god's sakes yet in the actual game he be killed by a few furry footed midgets with guns.(WTF)

IMHO GW shouldn't let the C'tan go to the Field of battle in W40k now as far letting them in BFG that I wouldn't mind, as I think it would make a cool scenario to have an Imperial fleet have to run away from the Dyson Sphere kinda like that old game Sinistar IIRC.

rkunisch
20-05-2005, 13:15
In my mind C'tan's are the single stupidest thing GW has done with the Necrons I mean the Space Marines could have a Chapter Master on the field, the Eldar can field a reincarnation , yet the necrons can field a frickin god. Then GW has to make these "gods" seem like weakling (relative) in the game, and SUPREME MASTERS IN OF THE WHOLE FLIPPIN UNVERSE in their fluff they can't be both it defies what they just said.
I think the C'Tan are a nice touch. Maybe you should not imagine them as gods themself, but like the greater demons of Chaos. They are an incarnation of the said god and as such way weaker. The death of a C'Tan on the battlefield does not mean the death of the god.

As the Necrons lack any personality otherwise, I have no idea how you possibly could replace the space the C'Tan take.

Delicious Soy, interesting theory. It would get my vote.

Have fun,

Rolf.

6th and Final Champion
20-05-2005, 14:28
The death of a C'Tan on the battlefield does not mean the death of the god.

.

They dont ie when they "die" on the battlefield jsut go to a tomb world and get anptheer necrodermis. But that doesnt change the fact that they can actually be defeated by armies on tabletop. At least give them a 3+ invul I mean come on.

Castigator
20-05-2005, 14:38
n my mind C'tan's are the single stupidest thing GW has done with the Necrons I mean the Space Marines could have a Chapter Master on the field, the Eldar can field a reincarnation , yet the necrons can field a frickin god. Then GW has to make these "gods" seem like weakling (relative) in the game, and SUPREME MASTERS IN OF THE WHOLE FLIPPIN UNVERSE in their fluff they can't be both it defies what they just said.

I mean really look at what the Nightbringer did he decimated Eldar Armies killed their war god and 100 other of their best warriors and eats star for god's sakes yet in the actual game he be killed by a few furry footed midgets with guns.(WTF)



Well, for one those furry footed midgets certainly have a good track record for bringing down dark gods that ate whole civilizations! If your a god you should watch out for those small guys!!!

Second, a battle-field death doesn't necessarily mean the God himself is dead. Think of it as an incarnation, or think of it as the god leaving to nurse his wounds, returning on another day. I mean, how often are other special characters "killed", only to return the next day.

Thirdly, the table-top stats don't necesserily reflect an individuals power. Its a wargame designed with army balance and some cinematic show offs between characters.
- Would Tyranids fight in balanced battles of 2000 vs. 2000 pts? No, they swarm a planet by the millions...
- Is Captain Shrike any tougher than a regular Assault Marine? No, but he's a character and to recreate the cinematic flair of the "protagonists" taking it out in the middle of a fight, he'll get some superior stats....

And last but not least, the fluff is only there to spice up the game, not the other way around. WH40K is a wargame first.
C'tan make for some variety in the Necron Armies, so in they go.
If you can't take that with the official fluff, change the fluff.. not the game.

6th and Final Champion
20-05-2005, 17:33
Good point.

cyndre
20-05-2005, 19:37
While i really DON'T like seeing C'tan on a table (or even necrons to be honest) the fact that they can die in a game is well explainable, since their (what, 4,5 wounds?) represent the amount of damage they can endure before their Necrodermis break up and the essence of the god become free and powerless until he reforms it again in a Tomb World. And with their dement toughness and save, they can endure a LOT of damage before breaking... :cheese:

TaintedSpam
20-05-2005, 21:50
The last time I fielded a C'tan, he died to warp spiders. As long as the weapon is Str5, I can sure fail that 4+ inv...

Karhedron
25-05-2005, 20:53
I mean really look at what the Nightbringer did he decimated Eldar Armies killed their war god and 100 other of their best warriors.
Slight note but Khaine actually won that battle, not Nightbringer. Nightbringer infected the Eldar (and other young races) with a fear of death as his parting shot after Khaine ripped his Necrodermis apart.

Great Harlequin
26-05-2005, 21:46
How many times do I explain this?

No new C'tan will be ever created for at least an entire century!

Why?

Dead are the day's where Games Workshop would create the odd random blister pack and sell it. The Games Workshop of today have everything scheduled and planned. Figure designers are basically told months even years in advance when they will be needed for a certain range. This is why they will not be released for a very long time. They will if at all be released when the Necron range is revamped which I can assure you will be along time off from now.

taer
26-05-2005, 21:49
So where do I pick up my re-vamped Eldar then?

Brimstone
26-05-2005, 21:56
They will if at all be released when the Necron range is revamped which I can assure you will be along time off from now.

Or if a Campaign book is released featuring a variant Necron list. ;)

The next Necron codex could be a major one featuring a upgrade from the current raiding forces to a major incursion. This would be quite long way off I expect.

Great Harlequin
26-05-2005, 22:01
Or if a Campaign book is released featuring a variant Necron list. ;)

A valid point which I have overlooked. It's possible. I just wanted to generally point out that Games Workshop don't release random figures onto the market anymore :cries:

All the bestest,

t-tauri
26-05-2005, 22:20
A valid point which I have overlooked. It's possible. I just wanted to generally point out that Games Workshop don't release random figures onto the market anymore :cries:

Catachan Officers and plastic Heavy weapons, Tau Rail rifles, Typhus and the Death Guard minis, Deathwatch, plus all the stuff tied into campaign books like Wulfen, Space Wolf Priest. Plus whatever has appeared for Warhammer.

They still do it but they tend to tie them in to some sort of rules to boost sales. The days when something would just appear on the shelves are long gone-I remember when Jes Goodwin's Eldar scouts just appeared in the store.

philbrad2
26-05-2005, 23:03
Or if a Campaign book is released featuring a variant Necron list. ;)

Care to expand ??? You could of course PM me details if they of course exist :rolleyes: Not going all 'ENGEL' on us are you BRIM??? :evilgrin:

40K Campaign 'pack' has been mentioned on a couple of occasions and with the plethora of WHFB campaign that have been staged in the last 2 years its about time 40K got a look in

:chrome:

Brimstone
26-05-2005, 23:46
If I had signed a NDA like Engel had then you wouldn't hear anything out of me either.

Even without that if I'm asked not to post things then I'll not do so unless I get permission first.

However the Campaign book with a Necron variant list is a mix of conjecture by myself and various Portent threads and rumours I've received independently over a long period.

We know a Mars campaign was considered and may still occur, this doesn't have to be as grand as "C'tan heading for Terra/The end of the Imperium" GW could constrain it quite easily.

If it did it don't expect it to be a Worldwide campaign more likely something smaller along the lines of the upcoming whfb Lustria one.

There were other ones in the mix as well but IMO this remains my favourite.

Derling
26-05-2005, 23:58
If I had signed a NDA like Engel had then you wouldn't hear anything out of me either.


Brimstone is right. If Engel gave anything up, he could be sued. I generally try not to give corporations a reason to sue me. a Corporation's lawyers will be more expensive than mine. :cries:

rkunisch
27-05-2005, 09:53
How many times do I explain this?

No new C'tan will be ever created for at least an entire century!

Why?

Dead are the day's where Games Workshop would create the odd random blister pack and sell it. The Games Workshop of today have everything scheduled and planned. Figure designers are basically told months even years in advance when they will be needed for a certain range. This is why they will not be released for a very long time. They will if at all be released when the Necron range is revamped which I can assure you will be along time off from now.

All very valid points, except that you do not really know when the Necrons will get a rework, don't you? :P

Personally I would rather see some nice advance on the army troops than a new C'Tan. I think there is also definitely some in-between type commander missing.

Have fun,

Rolf.

Great Harlequin
27-05-2005, 17:18
All very valid points, except that you do not really know when the Necrons will get a rework, don't you? :P

They are definately not on the scheduled list for the next ten years.

rkunisch
27-05-2005, 17:36
They are definately not on the scheduled list for the next ten years.
Wow. :eek: You must have prophetic abilities. Even the studio does not plan that far ahead. :p

To be honest, I also do not see them on rerelease very soon, but then there is the rumour about easy-to-update codices (e.g. Tau). The Necron codex would qualify as well and if I recall correctly there was even an entry on one of the seminar slides last year mentioning something new for the Necrons.

Have fun,

Rolf.

Great Harlequin
27-05-2005, 17:50
Wow. :eek: You must have prophetic abilities. Even the studio does not plan that far ahead. :p


I assure you they do. I have seen the general guidelines to whats coming out and when.

night_haunter
02-06-2005, 04:03
well there is a rumor that "The Dragon" is actually the machine god the imperium worships and when he rises from his tomb the iron hands will defect from the imperium and go with the necrons.

panda
02-06-2005, 04:07
hence the reason that he would never be released unless, well, GW wanted to completely change the timeline and shake things up so much that they couldn't control it

Angelus Mortis
05-06-2005, 14:29
Primarchs and the Emperor are in the background, doesn't mean they need to be in a codex for platoon level combat !
:D :D :D Amen Brother! I can't wait for the rules for the Chaos gods. I mean, if were gonna start playing with gods in company level combat, might as well. (Thats sarcasm btw.)

Master Fulgrim
06-06-2005, 00:31
Rules for gods? Hm, that is quite easy to proxy: Just jump on the table and stomp the minis of your enemie to dust. Then wait for the reaction of its owner, the god-proxy of his minis: The proud survivor of the following rable will win the battle, the honour and bill for the damage and the loser will get the right to call himself Kaela Mensha Khaine as compensation :evilgrin: . How do you like my idea :D ?

Master Fulgrim

PS: And dont forget to be WYSYWYG :D !

blitz589
06-06-2005, 00:34
Why do u want more ctan the current ones are fine, and annoying.

Alpharius
06-06-2005, 01:55
Rules for gods? Hm, that is quite easy to proxy: Just jump on the table and stomp the minis of your enemie to dust. Then wait for the reaction of its owner, the god-proxy of his minis: The proud survivor of the following rable will win the battle, the honour and bill for the damage and the loser will get the right to call himself Kaela Mensha Khaine as compensation :evilgrin: . How do you like my idea :D ?

Master Fulgrim

PS: And dont forget to be WYSYWYG :D !

Well, this is flat out the funniest thing I've read in a while!

Is there a Portent Hall of Fame for funny posts?

This belongs in there!

First Ballot Hall of Fame inductee!

rkunisch
06-06-2005, 10:34
Why do u want more ctan the current ones are fine, and annoying.
Please do not use abbreviations for words like you. Try do use some interpunctation instead. ;)

On topic: You say the current ones are fine and in the same context that they are annoying? How does this fit? I always thought that on the whole discussion there are only two good opinions. Either you completely dislike the concept of the C'tan, as gods should not be placed on the table, or you accept them as a small variantion of the HQ selection for the Necron list. If you accept them, why not do the missing two C'tan as well? It would only be logical. There is still the question, if you can represent the missing two C'tan ruleswise, but this is what most of the whole thread is about.

I like the idea of more C'tan - if even only to have some nice big miniatures for my display.

Have fun,

Rolf.

Zheardok
17-03-2006, 02:04
All I know is that GW will introduce the Outsider when the Necron codex is re-worked (which might be quite a while...).:eyebrows:

Inquisitor Engel
17-03-2006, 04:57
All I know is that GW will introduce the Outsider when the Necron codex is re-worked (which might be quite a while...).:eyebrows:

Considering what you've posted previously, I'd disagree.

EXCEPT - You're right, although I suspect our sources are very, very different. ;)

DISCLAIMER: Currently, that's the plan. The Outsider is slated to appear in fluff and BL books well before a reworked Necron Codex even sees the concept stage.

All of that is long-term plan (remember the Organic Battlesuit?) and subject to change at any time though.

ferrus
17-03-2006, 05:08
My guess is that with 4th edition on the horizon, they decided to hold onto this new C'tan until they could work it into a more structured release schedule.
The new Necron Codex that should emerge in a couple of years time.

Imp of High Noon
17-03-2006, 06:05
Primarchs and the Emperor are in the background, doesn't mean they need to be in a codex for platoon level combat !

The Primarchs are either dead, missing or busy ruling Daemon worlds. The Emperor sit in very very big wheelchair, drooling;)

Cool picture Wraith, V similar to what I had in mind, sort of Darkblade's Screaming God child but shiney. I did start a conversion for it which I never finished, the lower torso of the nightbringer attached to the upper torso of the deceiver, the head was the deceiver's without the side horns and the face filed off, so it was like a blank mask. I also put a spear in the cleched fist, made from a cold one knight's lance and a length of steel rod (I don't know why, seemed like a good idea)
For the colour I thought about a very pale silver, then mucking about with very thin blue, purple, green washes to make it seem slightly ethereal. I'll have to dig that out and finish it I think, though it won't make me want to collect necrons.

I'll finish there because I've totally forgotten my point :eyebrows:

John Vaughan
30-11-2006, 23:00
Well, I do think that a good idea would be to incorporate the Dragon C'tan. Thinking in a business perspective, GW would bring a lot more attention to the necron army, much like they have with the eldar recently. This would boost sales, and increase much needed revenue.The Outsider would of course be added, just for good measure. I personally hope they include a new troop choice...

Machinepriest
30-11-2006, 23:28
Wow... Talk about Threadomancy.
The Mods don't look kindly at that.

John Vaughan
01-12-2006, 00:08
Please forgive my ignorance, what is Threadromance?

Gensuke626
01-12-2006, 00:16
similar to beating a dead horse, but it involves going back to a thread that's been inactive for 2-3 months atleast and posting something new in it. It's an equatable offence to posting a new thread on a currently ongoing discussion, but works in reverse.

t-tauri
01-12-2006, 01:01
Please forgive my ignorance, what is Threadromance?
Please read the forum rules and posting guidelines (http://www.warseer.com/forums//faq.php?faq=rules#faq_posting_guidelines) especially point 26. This thread is closed.

t-tauri

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