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McDermott
12-06-2008, 05:09
Sorry if this is answered somewhere else. I could not find it. I am running a league and ran into a rules q I cannot answer to my satisfaction.

The new VC book has an item that allows a vampire to move at the same speed as Dire Wolves.

As fast cav dire wolves get a free reform.

In the fast cav rules it says a mounted character can join a fast cav unit. It says nothing about non-mounted characters(p. 70 BRB).

In the character rules it says "a character is allowed to join a friendly unit of troops-infantry, cavalry, unit of chariots, or a war machines crew, but never a monster, single chariot, unit of flyers, or another character!"(p. 72 BRB)

It also says that a man-sized character on foot has a us of 1 and moves like a skirmisher.

This leads to my question.
1. Can a Vampire with the talisman of the Lychni join a unit of fast cav (dire wolves)?

2. Does the fast cav unit still get a free reform or does the character change from a skirmisher to fast cav?

There was a good discussion of RAW vs. possible intent of authors. I made a ruling for the game and reserved a final ruling for later.

Thanks for any help offered:)
McD

Atrahasis
12-06-2008, 08:38
1. Yes, he can join.
2. No - the vampire has no permission to perform free reforms, as he is not mounted.

Faustburg
12-06-2008, 09:18
No, he can't join...

Saying that it only states a mounted character can join and not that a character on foot can't is like arguing that Treeman can Fly, because it doesn't say he can't...

Atrahasis
12-06-2008, 09:54
There is a blanket permission for characters to join units. Fast cavalry doesn't change that.

Faustburg
12-06-2008, 10:27
The fact that it tells you what is allowed to join (mounted characters) does just that, otherwise it wouldn't be there.

theunwantedbeing
12-06-2008, 10:31
page 70...
Cant seem to find where it states that "only mounted character's may join fast cavalry".

Although it does state that only mounted character's get to use the special movement rules.

Loopstah
12-06-2008, 10:31
The fact that it tells you what is allowed to join (mounted characters) does just that, otherwise it wouldn't be there.

What it says is that if a mounted character joins the unit it gains the same movement rules (free reform/ feigned flight).
It doesn't say that only mounted characters can join the unit, only which rules a mounted character can use.

Character rules allow a character to join cavalry units, a character on foot can therefore join a unit of Fast Cavalry but doesn't gain the movement rules as they aren't mounted.

DeathlessDraich
12-06-2008, 11:20
This has been discussed before and there is no solution.

Atrahasis
12-06-2008, 11:24
Yes, there really is, and it has already been described in this thread.

theunwantedbeing
12-06-2008, 11:26
This has been discussed before and there is no solution.

No, there was just too many people like you claiming there was no solution, when infact there was.

And it is that anyone can join fast cavalry within the normal limitations of character's joining units, but that only mounted models gain the special movement rules.

DeathlessDraich
12-06-2008, 11:35
Read the rules again and the original question as well.
While you're doing that read the last thread this appeared in as well and you'll find that, as I normally do, I outlined the arguments on both sides and found loopholes in both. :p

Opinions were offered there as they are here and they are just that - opinions with flaws.:D

Loopstah
12-06-2008, 11:57
"a character is allowed to join a friendly unit of troops - infantry, cavalry..."

"Fast cavalry units ... follow all the rules for normal cavalry units..."

"Mounted characters may join fast cavalry units and move in the same manner as the unit..."

It's quite clear cut.

Characters can join cavalry.
Fast Cavalry are cavalry.
Characters can join Fast Cavalry.
If the character who joins the Fast Cavalry is mounted then they benefit from the fast cavalry movement rules.

Faustburg
12-06-2008, 12:23
How does the unit reform when one of their members act differently to the rest?

It doesn't work.

Again, it says a mounted character can join, but not that a non-mounted can, sure, but it is absolutely insane to argue "It doesn't say I can't!"...

That way anything can be claimed...

Skirmishers have an add on after their similar rule, saying in black and white that other than roughly mansized may not join, and FC don't, but isn't it reasonable to assume the same goes?

Lordmonkey
12-06-2008, 12:23
1. Can a Vampire with the talisman of the Lychni join a unit of fast cav (dire wolves)?

Yes. Indeed, any character on foot may join any fast cavalry unit (unless otherwise stated) regardless of their M value - the unit just moves at the slowest pace.


2. Does the fast cav unit still get a free reform or does the character change from a skirmisher to fast cav?

The character certainly does not change to a fast cavalry. For one, he isn't cavalry, he is on foot.

So unfortunately for the VC player in question, the Dire Wolves will 'lose' the ability to perform free reforms, etc, while the vampire is with them.

Hope this helps :)

Loopstah
12-06-2008, 12:29
Again, it says a mounted character can join, but not that a non-mounted can, sure, but it is absolutely insane to argue "It doesn't say I can't!"...
?

No, it doesn't say mounted characters can join, it says what happens when mounted characters join.

It's simple:

There is a rule allowing all characters to join cavalry units.

The Fast Cavalry rules do not say "non mounted characters may not join Fast Cavalry units".

The general rule for characters joining units is still in effect as it hasn't been overwritten.

When the rules say you can do something it is logical and reasonable to say that you can do something, unless another rule says you can't.

Faustburg
12-06-2008, 12:36
No, You think that is what it says.. but it's not...

It tells you who can join, and after these models, so permitted, have joined, it tells you that
they will benefit from the FC movement but not shooting rule.

Anything else is daft rules lawyery...

Lordmonkey
12-06-2008, 12:53
Yes. Indeed, any character on foot may join any fast cavalry unit (unless otherwise stated) regardless of their M value - the unit just moves at the slowest pace.

Quiet, me. I obviously haven't read the proper rules, or I wouldn't have posted this.

Just had a re-read and it says:

"Mounted characters may join fast cavalry..."

I would consider this a restrictive ruling that only supports what it describes. I.e, if it isn't in the rules, it can't be done.

So unless a character is mounted, they cannot join a Fast Cavalry unit.

theunwantedbeing
12-06-2008, 13:00
Read the whole sentence.
A mounted character may join fast cavalry AND benefit from the special movement rules.

It's saying that WHEN a mounted character joins them he gains the movement rules.
It's not saying ONLY a mounted character can join.

1 + 2 + 3 = 6
The full rule.
1 + 2 = 6
Wrong, but only as you havent read the whole rule...your missing the important +3 bit.

Loopstah
12-06-2008, 13:20
No, You think that is what it says.. but it's not...

Anything else is daft rules lawyery...

No, that's what it says, it's called reading comprehension. You can purposefully misread the sentence to twist it into what you want to say, but it's plain and clear that your interpretation is not what it says.

The sentence means "Mounted characters may join units of fast cavalry and still benefit from the fast cavalry movement rules."

Anything else is rules lawyery with the English language.

EvC
12-06-2008, 13:54
Just to lay this to rest, bear in mind that in the Wood Elf book and FAQ, it talks of situations where Orion (an unmounted character) can join units of Wild Riders (fast cavalry). If the rules forbade unmounted characters from joining fast cav units, then this would not be possible.

Reading comprehension + basic logic = win :)

McDermott
13-06-2008, 07:38
Well the ruling I made was that the vampire can join the unit but the unit no longer has a free reform move with the vampire in it.

Not clearly stated but my ruling will stand for my league unless GW faqs it. As it is not a faq I think the chances of that happening are like Khorne having a arsenal of snowballs hidden away in his own private hell.

Thanks for the input:)
McD

Lordmonkey
13-06-2008, 11:42
Just to lay this to rest, bear in mind that in the Wood Elf book and FAQ, it talks of situations where Orion (an unmounted character) can join units of Wild Riders (fast cavalry). If the rules forbade unmounted characters from joining fast cav units, then this would not be possible.

Reading comprehension + basic logic = win :)

On the other hand, the VC book has a Blood Knight Kastellan with the Cursed Book...

Also, wasn't the Wood Elf book 6th ed, or have I made it up in my head again? :D


I think the chances of that happening are like Khorne having a arsenal of snowballs hidden away in his own private hell.

But he does! The rules don't say that he doesn't, so he does! :p

Loopstah
13-06-2008, 12:01
But he does! The rules don't say that he doesn't, so he does! :p

I bet he hides stones inside them as well. :(

EvC
13-06-2008, 14:18
On the other hand, the VC book has a Blood Knight Kastellan with the Cursed Book...

Also, wasn't the Wood Elf book 6th ed, or have I made it up in my head again? :D

If it was just the Wood Elf book, and just an example army list, I'd agree with you. But this is a ruling from an FAQ released weeks ago... mind you, FAQs aren't perfect either :D