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View Full Version : Help I'm a Wood Elf and Brettonians stomp me flat



Grey Seer Skretch
12-06-2008, 10:08
Hello.

I have a confession.

I am a Wood Elf player, and have been for some time. However, of all the foes I have faced, The Brettonians are the ones who have made me limp back into my on-fire trees and sulk the worst. In fact, I'm pretty sure one of them made my spellsinger cry. Stupid knights. Don't they realise how ecologically unsound knights in full armour are. What do they think the carbon footprint on a knight of the realm is eh? Eh?

SO...what advice from wood elf generals on dealing with the bretts? I tend to use a very archery-heavy list, 2 units of 10 waywathers with waywatcher characters (lord and noble), couple of lvl 2 spellsingers, 2 units of 8 dryads, 2 units of 12 bowmen, 10 scouts, and 10 wardancers.

All assistance greatfully accepted.

devolutionary
12-06-2008, 10:18
Beast Cowers, loads of Arrows, and minimum 6 spell dice. God that made me a sad panda when I fought against WEs with my Brets.

Chaos Undecided
12-06-2008, 10:59
Might be a bit of a one use only trick but you could take a unit of eternal guard with the banner of midwinter, try and get one or more knight units to charge them on the same turn. With the banners ability you can then tarpit them for at least one turn (maybe more with a suitable character leading a fair sized unit) setting them up for flank charges from various wardancer/dryad/treemen nastiness.

OldMaster
12-06-2008, 11:46
Armour Saves negating things.
uuuh... Arcane Bodkins, yeah, that's how they're called :)

Flank them. Get them in woods. And blast the hell outta them with your storngest units, like Waywatchers, Treekin...

Few Magic Items that may help, Bodkins as I mentioned before, Bow of Loren to fire them more effectively.... Moonstone of the Hidden Ways can outmaneuver your enemy drastically, Deepwood Sphere is GREAT against Knights who've lost their way in the forest (try to position your mage so, that they can't charge you, but still get damage.) Amber Pendant is great with a GW, can really surprise your opponent.
The Alter Kindred is great, can be combined with Bodkins and Bow of Loren or with the Amber Pendant and a GW.
Also, buy a few more Spellweavers. :) Block them with forests and those D6 S5 hits :O
Brettonians are not so good on magic.

W0lf
12-06-2008, 12:45
Brettonians are wood elves second easiest MU to win. (First is chaos mortals.)

What exactly do you have problems with?

Oh and units of 10 way watchers are a very big points sink and a terrible idea. Try 2x 5 for march blocking and stayuing out of charge arcs.

Wardancers flankign and going for killing blow makes a mess most times.

Treeman for terror is brliiant and can hold a chrage whilst dishing it out.

Alter is a beautiful thing.

Try and highbord with multiple shots and no saves allowed for a laugh.

Lots of things we can do to ruin a bretts day.

Oh and really dont bother with mages. Wood elf mages suck.

Grey Seer Skretch
12-06-2008, 14:37
Hmm, well...

I really want to stick with the stuff i'm using. tbh the two units of 10 waywatchers have done me really proud for a couple of years, so theres no way I'm ditching them. I really don't feel they're a 'terrible' idea as they've worked nicely and are central to the theme of my army.

I am using the moonstone, the bodkins and the bow of loren, or at least was, but tbh I seem to have some pretty horrible luck with my to-wound rolls whenever I try that one (like, 3 hits out of 4, maybe 1 wound, which the bret player then merrily saves with his ward). However, it really SHOULD be a winning combo vs them so i'm going to persevere with it.

I don't especially want to change my army composition as its a list written for a specific campaign. I am going to try swapping out one unit of Waywatchers and their Noble out for a treeman and a wardancer noble at some point soon, but thats about as much change as I want to make. I'm more looking for tactical advice against the brets using roughly the list I've presented.

I think I might drop one of the spellsingers though, as against the brets I don't really need them both. I've always found it very helpful to be able to shift woods about as its the most literal form of march-blocking ever, and the woodland bus is a wonderful way to launch troops up a flank fast, but the welf magic does seem rather...limp....

OldMaster
12-06-2008, 14:41
if you dump the Singer, you'll lose some first-class rock music and the VERY IMPORTANT ability to outgun your opponent in the magic phase. Your opponent is weak at magic! How can you not make use of that advantage? ...

Oenghus
12-06-2008, 14:59
Stick to the trees. Don't ever leave difficult terrain, if you can help it. Force him to come in after you, as much as you can, and then pepper him with shots/charge him in a couple of flanks at a time.

Mercules
12-06-2008, 15:02
Um... Wood Elf magic is rather nice. Rearranging the battlefield is subtle, but POWERFUL.

Getting a unit to charge you and then fleeing through woods and bogging them down into it then next turn blasting them to bits with Tree Singing is useful. "But you can't always be near a woods." With the other half of Tree Singing you can. You can also arrange it so that if the Brets want to get to you, they have to maneuver down a narrow corridor between 2 woods. If they wheel at all they end up slowed because they are in terrain. Meanwhile you flank them since you CAN move through woods.

Fury of the Forest? Str 4 Str 5 if near a woods? When won't you be forcing your opponent near woods?

Hidden Path, Eh... but it can be used to go through impassible terrain on your next turn.

Twilight Host? Yes that 96 point unit of Dryads suddenly causes Terror. Sure you can't charge them because you don't have LoS into the woods they are hiding in, but you still have to Terror check for being so close to them.

Ariel's Blessing gives you a save for an army where many units lack much of an AS. Not horrible.

Call of the Hunt is not weak. Very powerful. 5 Wardancers charge into combat and use Storm of Blows then you cast Call of the Hunt on them. Now they have 20 WS 6 S4 attacks each in a very narrow frontage (100mm).

Grey Seer Skretch
12-06-2008, 15:41
Um... Wood Elf magic is rather nice. Rearranging the battlefield is subtle, but POWERFUL.

Getting a unit to charge you and then fleeing through woods and bogging them down into it then next turn blasting them to bits with Tree Singing is useful. "But you can't always be near a woods." With the other half of Tree Singing you can. You can also arrange it so that if the Brets want to get to you, they have to maneuver down a narrow corridor between 2 woods. If they wheel at all they end up slowed because they are in terrain. Meanwhile you flank them since you CAN move through woods.

Fury of the Forest? Str 4 Str 5 if near a woods? When won't you be forcing your opponent near woods?

Hidden Path, Eh... but it can be used to go through impassible terrain on your next turn.

Twilight Host? Yes that 96 point unit of Dryads suddenly causes Terror. Sure you can't charge them because you don't have LoS into the woods they are hiding in, but you still have to Terror check for being so close to them.

Ariel's Blessing gives you a save for an army where many units lack much of an AS. Not horrible.

Call of the Hunt is not weak. Very powerful. 5 Wardancers charge into combat and use Storm of Blows then you cast Call of the Hunt on them. Now they have 20 WS 6 S4 attacks each in a very narrow frontage (100mm).

tbh, i've found it to be somewhat of a challenge to use (I'm a 40k ork player, what can i say lol) but yeah, I know theres a lot of potential to it and i love tree singing! Do people ever use Spellweavers, and if so do you use athel loren with them or go with life or beasts?

Neknoh
12-06-2008, 15:43
Put woods in his way.

Go for ONE Waywatcher character, at most. Let him be your general, and have him a hero. Use your Lord choice for an Alter kindred High Born with the Bow of Loren and Bodkin Arrows, that's 5 shots ignoring armoursaves and a very high movement to boot. As said, units of 10 waywatchers is much overkill, two units of five is enough. Use two Spellsingers rather than one, take Loren or Beasts if possible.

Now I've gotta go, more feedback to come

Grey Seer Skretch
12-06-2008, 16:05
Put woods in his way.

Go for ONE Waywatcher character, at most. Let him be your general, and have him a hero. Use your Lord choice for an Alter kindred High Born with the Bow of Loren and Bodkin Arrows, that's 5 shots ignoring armoursaves and a very high movement to boot. As said, units of 10 waywatchers is much overkill, two units of five is enough. Use two Spellsingers rather than one, take Loren or Beasts if possible.

Now I've gotta go, more feedback to come

Ah, my hands are a little tied there, as the fluff for my army is that he's a waywatcher highborn. Tbh, I really desperately don't want to use an alter kindred if I can avoid it as they're very...prevelant...and I'd like to try to stick to my guns. I think I will stick with the 2 wizards, I've been suitably convinced on that one so thank you for that guys :D With regards to lore of beasts, you can't take that on lvl 2s can you, only the lvl 4s?

Mercules
12-06-2008, 16:19
Ah, my hands are a little tied there, as the fluff for my army is that he's a waywatcher highborn. Tbh, I really desperately don't want to use an alter kindred if I can avoid it as they're very...prevelant...and I'd like to try to stick to my guns. I think I will stick with the 2 wizards, I've been suitably convinced on that one so thank you for that guys :D With regards to lore of beasts, you can't take that on lvl 2s can you, only the lvl 4s?

You can only take the Lore of Athel Loren. In a 750 point game I am playing against Goblins I have a Spellsinger lvl 2 and a Branchwraith lvl 1. Spellsinger has Calaingor's Stave. Because it allows me cast Treesinging more than once and it increases the distance, between the 2 casters I have moved three woods directly in front of his battle line and forced him to basically not move and I am only on my second turn. Inside those woods are most of my force leaving him with no room to maneuver and in a really bad position. I love that Arcane item.

Dyrnwyn
13-06-2008, 06:25
Well, I'm a pretty new Wood Elf player, and heck, a new fantasy player, but it strikes me that there are a few things you can do to counter the rampaging knights. The Machinegun Alter-lord with Arcande Bodkins has been mentioned more than once, Treesinging some forests into his way is a good idea (And Calaingor's Stave is essential for this). But I think something hasn't been mentioned and probably fits with your theme. Take a Waywatcher character and give him the Hail of Doom Arrow. Don't use it till the knights close to half range. 3d6 Killing Blow shots ought to take down a few knights, and those shots that don't slay outright are S4.

EDIT: Doh. Of course, now I go back and see that Lethal Shot doesn't work with magic arrows or bows. Oh well, just showing my lack of experience.

DeathlessDraich
13-06-2008, 10:48
Grey Seer Sketch,

Many of the points mentioned are very valid.

Army composition:
1) 1 unit of 10 Waywatchers in 2000 pts? will raise eyebrows. 2 units is definitely extravagant. More small units of 8 Dryads - a mere 96 pts.

2) Brets were very hard to beat with WE under 6th rules and the old Lore of Life but now WE have a better chance of hiding in the woods.

3) Bow of Loren and arcane Bodkins is a very common and effective combination but don't expect to destroy whole units. Its job is to reduce the size of the Lance formation and its effectiveness.

4) Alter Noble with Helm of the Hunt and Hail of Doom is almost a tournament must have.

5) Branchwraith and Annoyance of Netlings is also highly effective against Brets who tend to be tooled up for challenges.

6) Treeman - your biggest hitter.

Tactics:
a) Destroy peasants and Trebuchet with your superior shooting and the Alter Noble.

b) Wardancers and Dryads should work in pairs, lure and ambush. Sacrifice a Dryad unit to flank with the Wardancers - 21 or so S4 attacks should win combat against the Lance formation.
If you have 3 pairs of these units you will be looking at gaining 500 VC or more for a sacrifice of 280 VC and more importantly smashing the heart of the Brets army.

c) Place your woodland ambush centrally. Choose woods and buildings for scenery. Tree sing in every turn to link these woods and restrict cavalry movement - having a Branch wraith and Treeman enhances this.
Bret cavalry will 'funnel' between these woods or they would be reluctant to move because of your ambushing units behind these woods.
Buildings - since you can move and shoot - move Glade Guard quickly into buildings - they are immune from cavalry charges thereafter.

d) Beware of Pegasus Knights. If they are there, remember they are more susceptible to shooting since they have a lower armour save.

e) Concentrate your attacks - rather than dispersing them to all parts of the table. Breaking a single Bret cavalry unit early spells doom for most Bret lists. Easier said than done but do not engage in combat unles you can win it or draw the enemy unit away from the main arena

Defender of Ulthuan
15-06-2008, 03:39
Put trees in his way.
March-block. Glade Riders or Warhawk Riders.
Alter Highborn with Bow of Loren and Arcane Bodkins.
Wardancers. Lots of Wardancers. KB!!! KB!!! Ninja Moonstone WDNoble?
Small units of WW. Maybe 6. Maybe.
Treeman and/or Treekin anvils.

Hope that helps. Know some/all has been said already, but there's a comprehensive list.
Defender

TheWarSmith
16-06-2008, 00:56
Careful with the march blocking tactics though, as the Bret player most likely has skirmishing bowmen which can essentially eliminate a 5 man glade rider unit in 1 turn

xragg
16-06-2008, 01:33
Ah, my hands are a little tied there, as the fluff for my army is that he's a waywatcher highborn. Tbh, I really desperately don't want to use an alter kindred if I can avoid it as they're very...prevelant...and I'd like to try to stick to my guns. I think I will stick with the 2 wizards, I've been suitably convinced on that one so thank you for that guys :D With regards to lore of beasts, you can't take that on lvl 2s can you, only the lvl 4s?

The machinegun alter doesnt have to be alter. You can do it on a normal highborne with one less attack. You can even make him scout/waywatcher and keep him with your waywatchers.

Just like any cavalry, brets knights are vulnerable to flank charges. Flank charges by any decent unit can devestate them; dryads, wardancers, wild riders all hurt knights on the flank.



other things that came to mind later...

Take a Waywatcher character and give him the Hail of Doom Arrow. Don't use it till the knights close to half range. 3d6 Killing Blow shots ought to take down a few knights, and those shots that don't slay outright are S4.

You hit the same at short and long range with heros against most targets. You start out with a 1+ to hit, 2+ for long range which is the same thing.



Wardancers. Lots of Wardancers. KB!!! KB!!! Ninja Moonstone WDNoble?


On the charge, the bonus attack dance has the same chance to wound a T3, 2+ armor model as the killing blow dance. Best to use bonus attack on the charge, and killing blow the following round, unless your aiming to kill a multiwound model.

Grey Seer Skretch
19-06-2008, 13:52
Ok, all of the above very helpful, thank you guys. A couple of these things I'm already doing, a couple I'm not going to do simply coz they don't fit my chosen army composition (like i say, i'm a bit of a slave to my own fluff) but mostly, as I say, v helpful. I'd forgotten that Calaingor's Stave increases treesing range (duh, I must read my own book properly, write 100 times), and I have bitten the bullet and dropped one unit of waywatchers and their noble in favour of a treeman and a Branchwraith with a bound spell and the extra dispel dice (see her acting a bit like a warrior-priest level character, some combat, some magic/anti-magic).

One last question which I have got though: Lance formations. I was under the impression that one of their great strengths is that they do not actually count as having a flank, being as all the fellas down the sides get to fight forward. Am I incorrect in this assumption, as this would make a big difference in general...

Ipeninrod
20-06-2008, 01:29
Lances no Flanks?? Has there been a change since 6th. The have Huge flanks!