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Captain Keen
12-06-2008, 11:55
Hello, here I am again...

I am testeing my armies for the first time. And testing my rulesknowledge too. 2x 1k armies (I split my 2k army into 2 pieces to fieldtrip it into non-lethal exercise with eachother)
I was shooting with my 5 outriders (one has a granade launcher) against my 8 knights which had Luthor Huss also in the unit.

Since Luthor has a different AS then my other knights and a ward save, I really don't know how to interpret the rules stating that a char can not be fired at in a large unit. Can/must or can't I use his AS and wardsafe? If only knight models are removed as casualties, then how do I use the different AS and ward save if there are more hits-wounds then there are knights?

I'm not sure how the rules govern this. I can't shoot at Huss, so I can't use a different dice for him when looking where the hits go right?

confused...

theunwantedbeing
12-06-2008, 11:59
Look at page 74 of the rulebook.

Loopstah
12-06-2008, 12:01
You can't shoot at Huss if he's in a unit with more than 5 other models.

All the hits hit the Knights he's with.

As only Huss has a ward save you can't use it for the Knights.

If all the Knights are killed then excess wounds are discounted.

Captain Keen
12-06-2008, 12:18
Look at page 74 of the rulebook.

I did for half an hour, and still didn't get it. And page 31 removing casualties didn't help much either. Had no idea how the char in the unit was getting hit or not.:confused:

Captain Keen
12-06-2008, 12:22
You can't shoot at Huss if he's in a unit with more than 5 other models.

All the hits hit the Knights he's with.

As only Huss has a ward save you can't use it for the Knights.

If all the Knights are killed then excess wounds are discounted.

is kind of weird, cause it would mean that as long as this situation occurs, the hero is sort of indestructable...
(hero running from unit to unit to save his own ass..:) )

Loopstah
12-06-2008, 12:23
pg 74:
"If a character is part of a unit that includes at least five rank-and-file models, he cannot be shot at. Any shots against the unit will hit ordinary troopers and not the character".

Notice the Bold part. You can't hit the character means the character can't be hit, if he can't be hit he can't be wounded, if he can't be wounded he doesn't need to save.

You can't hit the character.


is kind of weird, cause it would mean that as long as this situation occurs, the hero is sort of indestructable...

Yes he is, but only until you reduce the unit to less than 5 rank-and-file models after which you use the next paragraph and can allocate wounds to the character.

You can also target them directly with things like cannons, but they get a "Look Out Sir!" save as long as the unit is more than 5 strong.

Lordmonkey
12-06-2008, 12:39
Firing on a unit with at least 5 rank-and-file models will protect the character that joined them from harm. It is assumed that any excess wounds inflicted on the unit are absorbed by the same dying models (It's quite possible for a soldier to be hit by several arrows simultaneously).

Since the character is not being shot at, you cannot use his personal armour/ward saves.

What you could do is kill all the knights first, and then shoot Luthor with a seperate unit...

Captain Keen
12-06-2008, 12:51
I just opened fire on the 8 knights and Lex with my outriders and two handgunner detachments of 2 other parents. The knight were dropping like flies here. only Huss, a flag and a champ remain after this mass shooting. however, I think i must reshoot since the last handgunners were shooting at a very small unit, and so the hero could be hit...(noobing around here)

Lordmonkey
12-06-2008, 12:58
I just opened fire on the 8 knights and Lex with my outriders and two handgunner detachments of 2 other parents. The knight were dropping like flies here. only Huss, a flag and a champ remain after this mass shooting. however, I think i must reshoot since the last handgunners were shooting at a very small unit, and so the hero could be hit...(noobing around here)

Ah, i see your problem.

Players are typically encouraged to roll big bunches of dice all at once to save time. Where seperate units are concerned, you do not have to declare what it firing at what until you get to each unit, so it's better to roll for each unit one at a time.

So, your outriders could fire on the knights, killing a few. Your detachment(s) would then have the option of firing at either the knights or Luthor, since he is no longer in a unit of 5-or-more models.

If anyone fires at Luthor, he will get his usual armour + ward save. Also, dont forget to include the -1 modifier for firing at a single model!

Hope this helps :)

Loopstah
12-06-2008, 13:13
Your detachment(s) would then have the option of firing at either the knights or Luthor, since he is no longer in a unit of 5-or-more models.

If anyone fires at Luthor, he will get his usual armour + ward save. Also, dont forget to include the -1 modifier for firing at a single model!


Not quite how it works. You can never target a character in a unit (whatever the size of the unit) unless the character is US 5 or more.

You fire at the unit as normal then allocate 1 hit to all models in the unit including characters.

If there are more models than hits you randomise who gets hit, same as if there are more hits than models you randomise extra hits.

the12thronin
12-06-2008, 13:14
Not quite. If a character is in a unit of less than 5 models, the hits are randomized. He can't pick out Luthor until he is on his own completely.

Captain Keen
12-06-2008, 13:17
I thought only units with special targeting option could pick out a hero/char from a unit?
page 74 says I must divide the wounds between my unit of 4 (after 1st handgunners took a shot), and only special targeting units can single out Lex to shoot at. My handgunners do not have this ability, and must shoot at the unit as a hole, right?

I did that, and the second handgunners left only Lex and a flag standing. This armorpiercing decimated my knights..

Loopstah
12-06-2008, 13:26
I thought only units with special targeting option could pick out a hero/char from a unit?
page 74 says I must divide the wounds between my unit of 4 (after 1st handgunners took a shot), and only special targeting units can single out Lex to shoot at. My handgunners do not have this ability, and must shoot at the unit as a hole, right?

I did that, and the second handgunners left only Lex and a flag standing. This armorpiercing decimated my knights..

Yep that's the way to do it.

Captain Keen
12-06-2008, 14:53
forgot to march with my knights...but even if they would have, they would still not have made it I guess. flaggies are now on the march, cause I need to get into melee stat! My canon isnt working with me too. 1 misfire and one ball that didnt make it all the way.

My other army (mortar, 2 level 2 wizs (light and shadow), 10 halb's with handgun reg, and 10 greatswords with handguns and outriders) are stll complete. Now flaggies ran to outiders, but riders ran away,lol (no good into getting them into melee with the flaggies I guess)
I guess the best thing is to get Lex into the flagellantunit together with the captain already there, and to let the solo knight charge others on his own with the griffin banner that causes fear when charging. Big problem is that the light wizard just gave every enemy unit imm psych!!! Murphies law I guess...

Lordmonkey
13-06-2008, 11:38
Not quite how it works. You can never target a character in a unit (whatever the size of the unit) unless the character is US 5 or more.

Oh okay then, my bad ^^

Sure it used to be different...

Braad
13-06-2008, 11:45
Also, since this is a unit of knights, my guess is that Luthor is on a horse? A mounted model is not at -1 to hit. Only characters on foot. So if you kill all the knights and only he is left, and then you wish to target him, there is no addional modifier.

But as long as there are 1 to 4 knights, you randomize.

Loopstah
13-06-2008, 12:00
But as long as there are 1 to 4 knights, you randomize.

You don't randomize, you divide the hits evenly between all models including the character.

You only randomize after every model is allocated the same number of hits and there are extra hits spare.

You shoot with 15 models at a unit of 4 Knights and Huss.
10 shots hit.
The 4 Knights and Huss all get hit twice.
The 2 spare hits are randomized.

Braad
13-06-2008, 20:53
Chop chop!
Loopstah, indeed, you are right.

Captain Keen
13-06-2008, 22:08
and we randamize too when there are only 3 hits total on the 4 horseriders that were left. we roll the dice to see which hit belongs to which knight and/or Lex. Then we throw to wound. (I gave lex a different colored die when I threw the bunch). and then I can give Lex his ward throw as well if he should get hit, right?

Loopstah
14-06-2008, 18:03
and we randamize too when there are only 3 hits total on the 4 horseriders that were left. we roll the dice to see which hit belongs to which knight and/or Lex. Then we throw to wound. (I gave lex a different colored die when I threw the bunch). and then I can give Lex his ward throw as well if he should get hit, right?

That's right.