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stainawarjar
12-06-2008, 15:12
I'm just getting back in the game after being out for a couple of editions, so I'm sorry if what I'm asking is really obvious:

If I equip a Wood Elf character with a great weapon and the amber pendant, are attacks made in initiative order?

Lord Aries
12-06-2008, 15:14
I'm pretty sure that you use In...

OldMaster
12-06-2008, 15:15
no, because everyone around you will strike last.
So, you'll strike first ;)

An alternative is the Helm of the hunt and the Alter Kindred. No way you're gonna be charged with move 9!

stainawarjar
12-06-2008, 15:27
So the stikes last rule you get from Great weapon isn't the same as the strikes last from amber pendant?

IvorTangrean
12-06-2008, 15:35
So the stikes last rule you get from Great weapon isn't the same as the strikes last from amber pendant?

No I believe that the pendant specifies that you will strike before great weapons. I could be wrong.

stainawarjar
12-06-2008, 15:38
No I believe that the pendant specifies that you will strike before great weapons. I could be wrong.

I have the book in front of me, and it doesn't.

Loopstah
12-06-2008, 15:43
I would say go by initiative order as both you and the enemy strike last.

OldMaster
12-06-2008, 15:52
Well I think the Amber Pendant is a bit more strict. I mean, GW = "strikes last", AP = "enemy AUTOMATICALLYstrikes last.....

JMMelo
14-06-2008, 05:21
the faq on the AP says EVERYTHING strikes last against the user...

ehlijen
14-06-2008, 08:08
Everything can strike as last as it wants, if the bearer also strikes last, they still strike at the same time and need to find a tie breaker. Initiative is the first one and should in most cases hand it to the WE, but that's not a guarantee.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
14-06-2008, 11:35
Right...so in a faceoff between an Elf with Amber Pendant, and a Herald of Nurgle with the awesome Noxious Vapors......both models have the "Always Strikes Last" special rule affecting each other..... so you can't go off that....I would think at that point you go off the normal stuff.

So that whichever side Charged, that model would go first against the other guys "Always Strike Last".

If the combat was ongoing, then you'd look at their Initiatives, meaning the Elf would definitely beat out the Init-2 Herald.

Seems fair/reasonable ?

Reinnon
14-06-2008, 12:35
Doesn't the great weapon rule state that when I is used to determine who strikes first, the wielder strikes last?

I'm 90% sure thats the rule.

Ergo: the amber pendent doesn't use I to determine the order of combat, thus the great weapon always strike last rule has no effect.

OldMaster
14-06-2008, 12:38
^ indeed.
No Initiative, GW, charge or ASF will ever help against it.

xragg
14-06-2008, 19:17
I often use 2 alters, one with GW/HotH/HoDA and the other with GW/AmberPen. We played that we both strike last, but the WE almost always wins with his I9. We never really investigated it much further then that since almost any tiebreaker favors an altered.

Denthúl
15-06-2008, 09:20
This is taken straight from the Wood Elves errata PDF on the GW site.


Q. Does the Amber Pendant cancel the "Always Strikes First" rule?
A. Yes - the enemy always goes last. No exceptions.

Now, I would assume that that also would apply to the usage of great weapons. The bearer of the Amber Pendant would still strike before their opponent unless they also had an item that meant the Wood Elf character would strike last. That is, however, just my interpretation of it.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
15-06-2008, 22:31
Yes, but we are wondering what happens when an Amber Pendant wearing Elf comes up against a Noxious Vapors equipped Nurgle Herald ?

BOTH have "Always Strikes Last" as their special rule that they inflict on the enemy they are in base contact with.

Thus..if both of them are hit with "Always Strikes Last" as soon as they touch each other, what is the next progression/break down as to who swings first ?

* * * I would obviously favor the Elf since he's the Charger AND/OR he has MUCH higher Initiative than the Herald. But what if the Elf has a Great Weapon ? - which would normally tip it back in favor of the Herald, as he does not have a GW equipped ? * * *

Loopstah
15-06-2008, 22:49
Yes, but we are wondering what happens when an Amber Pendant wearing Elf comes up against a Noxious Vapors equipped Nurgle Herald ?

BOTH have "Always Strikes Last" as their special rule that they inflict on the enemy they are in base contact with.

Thus..if both of them are hit with "Always Strikes Last" as soon as they touch each other, what is the next progression/break down as to who swings first ?


The Amber Pendant would strike first as it states "even if they charged or had an ability that would allow them to normally strike first"

Noxious Vapours is an ability that normally allows the daemon to strike first (dues to his opponents striking last) so it would be ignored and the daemon would strike last.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
16-06-2008, 22:28
Whoa ! That's quite a jump in logic there ;)

I am in agreement that the Elf should strike first, but NOT solely cause of the Amber Pendant as the Pendant and the Vapors are Identical in their effect - inflicting enemy models with "Always Strikes Last'.

I would think the Elf should strike first because of

A.) The fact he is the charging model (in the cases where he is charging)

B.) The fact he has the higher Initiative (in other cases; not charging, etc.)

------------

So what I am thinking would happen is (assume normal combat between Elf Prince with Pendant in a unit of Eternal Guard, let's say - VS Herald with Vapors and a unit of Plaguebearers):


1.) Elf's charge into the Plaguebearer unit.

2.) Prince goes first with his attacks // Amber Pendant // etc.

3.) Those Elves not in B2B with the Herald of Nurgle (and thus not affected by his Always Strikes Last effect from Vapors) get to make their attacks.

4.) The Herald of Nurgle makes his attacks before the Elves that he is in base-to-base contact with get to swing.

5.) The Plaguebearers get to make their attacks (Init-1 - ha !), assuming they are not Plaguebearers which are also touching Amber Pendant Elf guy.

6.a) The Elves that were in B2B with the Herald now get to attack "last", assuming they are still alive.
6.b) The Plaguebearers that were in contact with Amber Pendant guy get to attack "last" too, assuming they are alive still. I would err' on the side of "The Elves charged" - in this case - so that should be the determiner between the two "Always Strikes Last" groups of models as to which of the two should gain priority and swing first, in this instance.

-----------------

I think that would be the correct sequence.

Loopstah
16-06-2008, 22:35
I am in agreement that the Elf should strike first, but NOT solely cause of the Amber Pendant as the Pendant and the Vapors are Identical in their effect - inflicting enemy models with "Always Strikes Last'.


Like I said though, they might have the same effect but the Amber Pendant has an additional rule that Vapours doesn't have. Models strike last regardless of any abilities or items that would allow them to strike first. It's pretty clear to me that the elf will always strike before the daemon even if the daemon charged or had higher initiative.




So what I am thinking would happen is (assume normal combat between Elf Prince with Pendant in a unit of White Lions, let's say - VS Herald with Vapors and a unit of Plaguebearers):


1.) Elf's charge into the Plaguebearer unit.

2.) Prince goes first with his attacks // Amber Pendant // etc.

3.) Those Elves not in B2B with the Herald of Nurgle (and thus not affected by his Always Strikes Last effect from Vapors) get to make their attacks.

4.) The Herald of Nurgle makes his attacks before the Elves that he is in base-to-base contact with get to swing.

5.) The Plaguebearers get to make their attacks (Init-1 - ha !)

6.) The Elves that were in B2B with the Herald now get to attack "last", assuming they are still alive.

-----------------

I think that would be the correct sequence.

Yes, that looks right, but as the Amber Pendant is a Wood Elf item I doubt they would be in a unit of White Lions. ;)

Nurgling Chieftain
16-06-2008, 22:45
...a horse that is flying, not a flying horse.
Noxious Vapours is an ability that normally allows the daemon to strike first (dues to his opponents striking last)...
You crack me up. :p

Going first and forcing others to go last are not equivalent concepts, since other combatants may be involved in the same fight.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
16-06-2008, 23:16
LoL - yeah, I edited my White Lions to Eternal Guards ASAP - brain freeze. Stinkin' elves...all look alike :D

-------

To Nurgling Chieftain - that was his "leap of logic" that I was referring to - glad you caught it too :p

Loopstah
17-06-2008, 09:50
You crack me up. :p

Going first and forcing others to go last are not equivalent concepts, since other combatants may be involved in the same fight.

It's funny really but they are identical concepts in this situation, unlike the example of mine which is actually two distinct things. ;)

It doesn't matter if other combatants are in the combat or not, they are irrelevant to the combat between the daemon with noxious vapours and the elf with the Amber Pendant as they are the only ones forcing each other to strike last, and that's what we are discussing at the minute.

If you have an ability to force your opponent to strike last this means you strike first against them.

As anything that allows you to strike first against the bearer is negated by the Amber Pendant anyone fighting the bearer must strike last, even if the bearer must also strike last.

It's quite simple really, in a combat you either strike first or last, there isn't another option, unless you want to invent a strike-sort-of-first-and-last-at-the-same-time-in-the-middle option.

Daemon: My Noxious Vapours mean you must strike last, this means I strike first in our combat elf-thing.
Elf: No, you must strike last, my Amber Pendant makes it so. This means I strike first in our combat.
Daemon: Noooo, how can we both strike last and first!. One must strike first and one must strike last!
Elf: Well I will strike first then! My item prevents you from striking first in any circumstances so I cannot strike after you!
Daemon: Nooo, you have me now elf-thing!

Baragash
17-06-2008, 14:43
If you have an ability to force your opponent to strike last this means you strike first against them.

It means you strike before them, not first against them. Strikes first is a specific rule.

Your chain of logic ends up with Star Dragons claiming ASF because if I have ASF, my enemy clearly has strikes last therefore going after the Star Dragon.

Loopstah
17-06-2008, 14:51
It means you strike before them, not first against them. Strikes first is a specific rule.

Your chain of logic ends up with Star Dragons claiming ASF because if I have ASF, my enemy clearly has strikes last therefore going after the Star Dragon.

No, strikes first is not a specific rule, Always Strikes First is a specific rule.

The Amber Pendant doesn't mention the specific rule "Always Strike First" it just says "..would allow them to normally strike first".

Striking first does not mean a model has ASF, but ASF is an example of striking first, as is charging or having a higher initiative, or making the bearer strike last.

Baragash
17-06-2008, 15:10
It doesn't change the fact that before <> first.

But lets take the example with the Glade Guard and the Plaguebearers present:

Either the Plaguebearers or Glade Guard not under the influence of NV/AP will strike first. The additional wording of the AP is not the tiebreaker.

Loopstah
17-06-2008, 15:22
It doesn't change the fact that before <> first.

But lets take the example with the Glade Guard and the Plaguebearers present:

Either the Plaguebearers or Glade Guard not under the influence of NV/AP will strike first. The additional wording of the AP is not the tiebreaker.

PPPHP
GGGHG


If the Plaguebearers charge then it would be:

1)The 2 Plaguebearers on the left would strike first due to charging.
2)The two Glade Guard on the left would strike next due to not being forced to strike last.
3)The Wood Elf Hero with Amber Pendant and the last two Glade Guard strike next as they have to strike last.
4)The Herald and last two plaguebearers strike last last due to the amber pendant which makes them strike last.

Now this is the tricky point, 4) happens in my view because no matter how you sort out what happens when two models have to strike last all the rules that would result in the Herald and Plaguebearers striking before the elves either go in favour of the elves or are negated by the pendant.

If you use Initiative the elves strike first anyway.
If you use charging, the Amber Pendant ignores this.

Is there another way to decide between two models that must strike last?

YTY
17-06-2008, 15:30
This is solved by the wood elves faq.


Q. Does the Amber Pendant cancel the "Always Strike First" rule?
A. Yes - The enemy always goes last. No exceptions.

The last two words No exceptions make it clear that no special rule, weapon, magic item, better iniative, charge, great weapon etc. can make the opponent strike before the hero carrying Amber Pendant.

Lord Aries
17-06-2008, 15:47
The plague bearer ability is the Exact same as the AP. Both say, enemies always strike last, no exceptions. One does not trump the other. However the Elf wins anyways due to Initiative.

Malorian
17-06-2008, 15:54
Good quote YTY.

It's things like this that FAQs were made for.

Loopstah
17-06-2008, 15:57
The plague bearer ability is the Exact same as the AP. Both say, enemies always strike last, no exceptions. One does not trump the other. However the Elf wins anyways due to Initiative.

Nope. The Amber Pendant says regardless of x,y,z. Noxious Vapours doesn't. So they aren't exactly the same.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
17-06-2008, 21:58
I wonder if the Daemons FAQ, soon to be released, will address this very question and perhaps provide some clarification from the Daemon side of things ?

Watch them say "4+ it", like the Annoyance of Nettlings + Dreadlance goofiness :rolleyes:

SolarHammer
18-06-2008, 00:45
What about 2 Wood Elf players facing each other, both armed with the Pendant?

IvorTangrean
18-06-2008, 13:40
What about 2 Wood Elf players facing each other, both armed with the Pendant?

Simple if only one has a great weapon, he strikes last otherwise it is a dice off.

DeathlessDraich
18-06-2008, 13:55
The 'problem' here is the word "always" and its imperative connotations.

Always = Under *all* circumstances = No exceptions.

Both Noxious vapours and Amber Pendant forces the enemy to *always* strike last.

There is no need to include anything else - "even when charging etc" are redundant phrases.

When these 2 abilities face each other the outcome can only be decided by a dice roll

Lord Aries
18-06-2008, 14:26
The amber pendant DOES NOT say... the enemy stikes last no exceptions. The FAQ on it, did not change the text, but rather gave a ruling on how to interpret the text of the AP. The ability that the AP and the NV have are the same, and because of this, the ruling for both is the same.

Sometimes they DO change the wording of the text... HOWEVER they did not in this case and just made a ruling. This is a ruling on how to interpret the text of the AP. You would interpret the NV in the same manner.