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Gobbo Lord
12-06-2008, 15:22
Attending a local game club for the first time last night i had my first look at the new vampire counts and deamons book. I was shocked to say the least.

I am an orc player and winced when i saw the points of Boar Boyz in my new book. However i am outright shocked when comparing them to the Black Knights.
For 2 POINTS MORE Black Knights get, Lances, Ethereal Movement, Fear, Immune to psychology and the ability to be raised back to full strength.

Boar Boyz statistically can not move one turn in the game and one turn will move towards the nearest enemy by d6, not compensating for the loss of a 14 inch move. What is going on, 7th edition army book authors seem to be pricing units at their whim. if anyone can defend this or offer reasoning please go ahead.

Limenix
12-06-2008, 15:32
GW was never fair about these things.
They should have a universal point/cost table so that there would be some balance.
My biggest complaint are Dragon Princes.
For only 30Pts they are too powerfull.

pcgamer72
12-06-2008, 15:34
Nope, there isn't much in the way of an explanation. When 7th Edition was released, it was rumored that the points for cavalry was going to be increasing across all books as they were released. Well, they were true to their word when the O&G book came out, but the remainder of the books have not seen such a point increase.

I suppose the only thing I could even offer to you would be that the points for Boar Boyz are an internal balance mechanism rather than an external one, but I know what I'm saying is a lie.

Bottom line: you got hosed.

Gobbo Lord
12-06-2008, 15:41
When 7th Edition was released, it was rumored that the points for cavalry was going to be increasing across all books as they were released. Well, they were true to their word when the O&G book came out, but the remainder of the books have not seen such a point increase.


I remember reading an interview with Mat Ward in which he made that statement. Then the next book, The Empire, came out and low and behold their knights had decreased in cost compared to the previous list.

Dark Elf Cold One Riders will probably be the same points as Boar Boyz the way things are going. They will have 2+ armour save, Fear, Lances, Some kind of Dark Elf hatred for everyone special rule and a cheaper command unit. With stupidity on leadership 8 or 9 with a character. God forbid when Chaos Warriors are released.

wizuriel
12-06-2008, 15:57
well one thing to consider is that blood knights are a rare choice and boar boyz only special.


but yeah I agree point values are getting out of hand (not just calvary).

look at bloodletters vs the new chaos warriors (from the WD list not choosen). same point cost yet bloodletters are far better.
higher movement, strength, MR 1, killing blow, unbreakable all for the cost of -1 toughness.

edit: pretty much any book released before high elves is [censor] imo. Unless you realy go with a cheesefilled build

Mad Doc Grotsnik
12-06-2008, 16:04
Units are priced within the means of their own army list.

And yes, I'm afraid there is a logic to this, no matter how much you may protest.

Black Knights cannot march without a Vampire nearby. Vampires themselves are quite expensive. Thus, Black Knights have this disability compensated for. Black Knights do not come with barding. This is extra, and then slows them down by an inch (check the FAW if you don't believe me)

Boarboyz have the *possibility* of a 20" move each and every turn, and when the Waaagh! is called, they can outcharge pretty much every cavalry in the game (barring Seekers of Slaanesh). Their mounts are their lances on the charge, effectively. Give them spears, and each one is kicking out more damage than a Knight (1S5 and 1S4).

But I know you'll ignore this plea for some kind of reason.

Andrew Luke
12-06-2008, 16:10
The only model you really have an argument for is dragon princes. They are damn cheap for what they do, especially if combined with the D6 combat resolution banner. They will break units just as easily as Blood knights, don't suffer from frenzy, and cost less. Black knights are a good value, but their WS sucks, the horses attacks are weak, and they can't march unless you pay extra as someone mentioned, so I feel they are balanced. Boar Boys are expensive for what you get, especially big uns, but they are the hardest thing in a horde list, so they pay a lot for that mantle. As Mad Doc said, its intra-list balance. O&G are a hordey, chancey list, so it just comes with the territory.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
12-06-2008, 16:12
Also, Dragon Princes are a weedy T3...hardly impressive now is it? A flank shot from a Boltthrower will tear them up faster than T4 troops.

Chiron
12-06-2008, 16:12
But I know you'll ignore this plea for some kind of reason.

Why let logic interfere with a good rant?

dinobot
12-06-2008, 16:24
I'd also like to add that black knights can only be raised one at a time. A lot of people go on and on about how all VC units can be raised, but they seem to ignore how slowly the cavalry and ethereal units are brought back.

Malorian
12-06-2008, 16:26
I also think that since we are seeing more warmachines, more killing blow, and more ASF, that calvary in general are getting worse.

Still effective mind you, but not as effective as they were.

Gazak Blacktoof
12-06-2008, 16:39
I'd also like to add that black knights can only be raised one at a time. A lot of people go on and on...

Except when using a corpse cart.


Boar boyz are frankly rubbish for their points. They were ok at 18 last edition but still nothing too amazing even then.

One big problem with the boar boyz is their weapon skill of three, its a bit poor for heavy cavalry and means they regularly bounce off units.

Toughness 4 might be nice for resisting ranged fire but they have a worse save than other cavalry and animosity means that they often end up enduring an additional turn of fire whilst they squabble.

Urgat
12-06-2008, 17:00
Black Knights cannot march without a Vampire nearby. Vampires themselves are quite expensive. Thus, Black Knights have this disability compensated for. Black Knights do not come with barding. This is extra, and then slows them down by an inch (check the FAW if you don't believe me)

Boarboyz have the *possibility* of a 20" move each and every turn, and when the Waaagh! is called, they can outcharge pretty much every cavalry in the game (barring Seekers of Slaanesh). Their mounts are their lances on the charge, effectively. Give them spears, and each one is kicking out more damage than a Knight (1S5 and 1S4).

But I know you'll ignore this plea for some kind of reason.


Considering that VC armies are chokefull of vampires, I don't see your first point as being very convincing. As for the second, I rarely see boar boyz with ranks, so unless you put the general in it (which is a bigger constraint that having a vampire around to march), the only thing you may achieve with the waaagh is to destroy your own unit. The 6 remains the same as for a normal animosity test.
The point of such unit is to charge. The 1 on the animosity roll is way more lethal than the meager benefit of the 6 (which often makes my guys move 1" forward, I know, blame my luck, but still, big difference).
But yeah, the tusk charge is nice, and thank god they lost the -1to Ld with the previous edition...

I don't care if black knights are costed right or not, they certainly didn't do very impressively when I played them last time, but are you really saying boar boyz are worth their price? Honestly?

Dominatrix
12-06-2008, 17:18
The truth lies somewhere in the middle. On one hand comparing unit costs across different armies can lead to wrong conclusions sometimes. On the other hand the 7th edition O&G book clearly was not written with the same logic as the rest of the 7th edition armies.

So no you can't compare boar boyz to black knights it just isn't that easy but let us also say that if the O&G book was written now it would have been a hell of a lot different (by that I mean more powerful).

Braad
12-06-2008, 18:29
I think the main problem is, that they are totally out of line compared to savage boar boyz. They are about the same price, but have double the attacks... Okay, they can be baited, but that still means they are about to chop up something... And it gives them itp.

And indeed, I too heard about the plan to increase the point cost of all cavalry. They decided on this just before making the O&G book. They also decided to skip it right after...
I don't understand that GW does not put an errata on this kind of stuff when so many players complain.

pcgamer72
12-06-2008, 18:34
Now Savage Boar Boyz I am actually a fan on (Note: I am not an O&G player.)

I believe it's 115 points for a unit of 5 with spears. You've got an inexpensive unit that dishes out 10 S5 and 10 S4 attacks. Pretty brutal I think.

Admiral Samuel Eden
12-06-2008, 18:38
Points (you could argue) for one thing against another is an unfair match when going between army books. For instance, bretonnian knights are a point less than empire inner circle and look at all their advantages, the truth is that an army that focus's on cavalry gets a better deal and things like this go across the board. You get expensive cavalry but you get some things stupidly cheap which IMO balances things out. Black Knights are better than Boar Boyz for points, but black knights are something that is quite important in the army. You can't really judge one book against another without looking at all the points costs and comparing them. It'll balance out one way or another.

monkeymatt
12-06-2008, 18:38
GW was never fair about these things.
They should have a universal point/cost table so that there would be some balance.
My biggest complaint are Dragon Princes.
For only 30Pts they are too powerfull.

They might be cheap point cost but if you want a decent amount of them your going to fork out a foutune...GW have used them to gain lot's of profit by having them low points but high price...They are strength 3 Toughness 3 which is lame(I can't remember what strength is for(I'm a newbie))plus 2 attacks isn't that good and only 1 wound(Does haveing Dragon armour on it's own give you a 4+ AS?)

truthsayer
12-06-2008, 18:43
Bottom line: you got hosed.

Unfortunately this is true. My Orc and Gobbo army has only goblin cavalry due to the god-awful pricing of boar boyz.

I dont even know why they give the option of upgrading boar boyz to big uns, they should just be big uns anyway. From a fluff standpoint and the fact that a charging non big un boar boy gets strength 4. Oh come off it!

Gazak Blacktoof
12-06-2008, 18:47
Black Knights are better than Boar Boyz for points, but black knights are something that is quite important in the army.

I don't think boar boyz are less important to greenskins than black knights are to vampire counts.

Vampire counts are an army almost exclusively based around hordes of shambling undead and of course vampires. Black knights don't define the army.

Points costing for theme is only appropriate if that theme supports an imbalance in points costs away from the norm of other armies, ie there's something crucial to the way that type of troop is normally used that is missing from the army, and so the troops need to be reduced in cost to help balance them so they aren't rubbish.

Storak
12-06-2008, 18:49
Units are priced within the means of their own army list.

And yes, I'm afraid there is a logic to this, no matter how much you may protest.

Black Knights cannot march without a Vampire nearby. Vampires themselves are quite expensive. Thus, Black Knights have this disability compensated for. Black Knights do not come with barding. This is extra, and then slows them down by an inch (check the FAW if you don't believe me)

Boarboyz have the *possibility* of a 20" move each and every turn, and when the Waaagh! is called, they can outcharge pretty much every cavalry in the game (barring Seekers of Slaanesh). Their mounts are their lances on the charge, effectively. Give them spears, and each one is kicking out more damage than a Knight (1S5 and 1S4).

But I know you'll ignore this plea for some kind of reason.

this is total nonsense, not reason.

the potential average gain of 3.5" on a waagh is counter"balanced" by a possible 3.5 wounds, and potentially a wipe out. baiscally you are paying one orc for every inch!

the d6 inch bonus move on a roll of 6 on animosity is counter"balanced" by the loss of 14 inch (14!!!) when a 1 is rolled!

this 10.5 net loss for boarboys in movement over 6 turns, combined with the extra inch of movement (8 inch) of the black knights and a certain march during the first turn, actually most often will COMPENSATE the lack of march moves for the knights.

the knights have heavy armor. so they share the 3+ save with the orcs. the barding (again) is an additional OPTION.

a comparison with undead isn t easy. but the advantages of the black knights over boarboys are so blatantly obvious, that you can t really fail to see them!

PS: the Knights have one S6 (lance!) and one S3 attack.

pcgamer72
12-06-2008, 18:53
They might be cheap point cost but if you want a decent amount of them your going to fork out a foutune...GW have used them to gain lot's of profit by having them low points but high price...They are strength 3 Toughness 3 which is lame(I can't remember what strength is for(I'm a newbie))plus 2 attacks isn't that good and only 1 wound(Does haveing Dragon armour on it's own give you a 4+ AS?)

Well, I'm not sure of exactly what all you're saying/asking, but Dragon princes have Lances, so they are Strength 5 on the charge. The only other cav with 2 attacks are Chosen Chaos, Grail Knights, and Blood Knights... so I'd say 2 attacks is pretty good. And they have a 2+ armor save, how it gets there for them I'm not sure but usually cavalry have:

Heavy Armor (5+)
Shield (6+)
Mounted (6+)
Barded (6+)

Which all comes out to a 2+ save.

Shimmergloom
12-06-2008, 18:56
Boarboyz have the *possibility* of a 20" move each and every turn, and when the Waaagh! is called, they can outcharge pretty much every cavalry in the game (barring Seekers of Slaanesh). Their mounts are their lances on the charge, effectively. Give them spears, and each one is kicking out more damage than a Knight (1S5 and 1S4).


I wish people would read the army books before making patently false statements like this. The only thing calling the Waaagh! does to a boar boy unit is make them lose D6 models, 17% of the time.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
12-06-2008, 19:00
Yes, because they actually have a rule preventing them gaining the D6" movement from both animosity and Waagh!

That'd be the rule printed in invisible ink you can only see through tears of indeterminate rage....

Lord_Byron
12-06-2008, 19:06
I don't agree that the boar boyz ability to move extra inches on the charge/Waaagh! is balanced by their high points cost. It is balanced by the fact that they are prone to squabble in every turn and can literally tear themselves apart if they squabble on the Waaagh!. Of course, you can put a black orc in the unit to tear them apart instead...

In my opinion they are overpriced because Matt Ward wanted orcs and goblins generals to focus on infantry units. It's orcish.

Unfortunately, in my experience, animosity in it's current incarnation is a serious detriment to forces comprised mostly of large block of orcs and goblins, as much for the well show em 6 result as the squabble 1 result. But that is a discussion very well covered in many other threads...

So to stay on topic. I agree that boarboyz are overpriced compared to every other cavalry piece out there. Even worse is the big un upgrade which is so prohibitively expensive I never have and never will use it myself, nor have I seen any of the other orc players around here use it either.

Better believe I still bring my savage orc boar boyz though. ;)

Grogugluk
12-06-2008, 21:04
I think we can all agree that regular orc boar boyz are complete rubbish.


I think if you want to compare the O+G cavalry you need to talk about savage orc boar boyz which are just way better than the normal ones.


Granted I'm sure dragon princes are better than them but they are not that bad of an option for a calvary. They get a 4+save w/ 6+ ward as well as 4 toughness for I think 25 points. With the spear.


Now the new Flesh hounds... those things are super awesome. My favorite "calvary" I've used. Went to 2 units in my list and can't go back I like them so much.

OldMaster
12-06-2008, 21:54
Rumours exist Chaos Knights would pwn more then Blood Knghts, yet be cheaper.
Still, Chaos Knights never heve been cheap :\

Urgat
12-06-2008, 21:56
Yes, because they actually have a rule preventing them gaining the D6" movement from both animosity and Waagh!

That'd be the rule printed in invisible ink you can only see through tears of indeterminate rage....


You're being dense on purpose. What he means is that the only difference between the regular animosity test and the waaagh is that you risk losing your whole unit (possibility which is as high as your potential 20" a turn) on a 1 if you declare a waaagh. So compared to normal, calling the waaagh is actually a malus.

Gobbo Lord
12-06-2008, 21:58
Yes, because they actually have a rule preventing them gaining the D6" movement from both animosity and Waagh!

That'd be the rule printed in invisible ink you can only see through tears of indeterminate rage....

Mad Doc, im sorry but you are so wrong. Boar Boyz are in danger during a waaagh and recieve no bonus from its effects.

During a Waagh the Boar Boyz have the same chance of the extra d6 movement that they do any other turn. They have no ranks, due to a rank of 5 costing 110 points meaning no one in their right mind would have this. 110 points for +1 combat resolution when you can give them a war banner for 25 does not make good army building sense. Because of this they get no +1 to the animosity roll for ranks. They also dont have the general in as he is best put in the rank and file. So they dont automatically get it.

So the boar boyz still need a 6, even during the waaagh to gain the extra movement, unlike rank and file which find themselves surging forward on a 3+, or 2+ if they have a fighter character with them. However if you roll a one during the waaagh you take d6 WOUNDS with no armour save allowed, bye bye small unit of expensive boar boyz for no increased chance of moving forward you make the chance of staying still even more deadly.

So no they do not have a rule stating they can not gain the d6 movement on the waaagh but the way the waaagh works just makes it even more risky for these troops. Show me someone who takes a unit of boar boyz with 3 ranks and a big boss so they get the extra d6 movement on a 2+ and ill show you someone who is going to lose the game.

theunwantedbeing
12-06-2008, 21:59
Your troops are balanced internally...rather than in a direct comparison with everything else.

txamil
12-06-2008, 22:51
Your troops are balanced internally...rather than in a direct comparison with everything else.

That's not the definition of balanced, at least how it's being used int he thread. You know this.

Mercules
12-06-2008, 23:16
That's not the definition of balanced, at least how it's being used int he thread. You know this.

Shall we instead say that ARMIES are of comparative balance to each other and part of that is the internal balance in the army?

O&G have great Light Cavalry. They have so-so Heavy Cavalry. Instead they have numerous excellent chariots some 2-1 and bolt throwers 2-1.

Lets compare all the books to Ogre's cavalry. Oops... Ogres have no(official) cavalry. They must be cheated. Every one has infinitely better cavalry. :rolleyes:

decker_cky
12-06-2008, 23:16
Your troops are balanced internally...rather than in a direct comparison with everything else.

Well....the real problem is that boar boyz AREN'T balanced internally. They should probably have gotten a points drop rather than a points increase, particularly with animosity actually getting worse (positive result is more common but not as good, or even sometimes bad, and the old quell animosity was far better than the new one, particularly for boar boyz).

I honestly feel that in hindsight, boar boyz at 16 pts would be fine, because of animosity, the competition for special slots, etc... Savage boar boyz are costed fine, but the normal ones are a big waste.

Gazak Blacktoof
12-06-2008, 23:21
Your troops are balanced internally...rather than in a direct comparison with everything else.

If that were the case you'd see armies include boar boyz but you don't, because they're pants. They aren't balanced with other elements of the list or balanced against other armies.

Boar boyz are crappy when viewed from every possible angle and through any number of pairs of rose tinted glasses.

EDIT: I'm not sure if I'd go so far as to say they need reducing to 16 points but 18 certainly wasn't a bargain price for them last edition.

Storak
12-06-2008, 23:23
I think we can all agree that regular orc boar boyz are complete rubbish.

well, it looks like some people don t.

both Mad Doc and theunwantedbeing believe that they are well balanced.

Storak
12-06-2008, 23:26
Yes, because they actually have a rule preventing them gaining the D6" movement from both animosity and Waagh!

That'd be the rule printed in invisible ink you can only see through tears of indeterminate rage....

again: waaagh will WIPE OUT a 150 points unit of 5 boar boys in 1 out of 18 cases.

the D6 move does NOT compensate this risk!

Storak
12-06-2008, 23:29
Your troops are balanced internally...rather than in a direct comparison with everything else.

i am looking forward to your explanation of the "internal" balance of orc boar boys in the O&G army

and i am very interested in an explanation of the different values in the O&G and the vampire army as well.

BRING IT ON!

Storak
12-06-2008, 23:33
EDIT: I'm not sure if I'd go so far as to say they need reducing to 16 points but 18 certainly wasn't a bargain price for them last edition.

Boar boys would need some massive changes. a nice and rather new idea would be a reduced price but a 10+ lower number limit on the unit...

Gobbo Lord
12-06-2008, 23:40
With next years plastic cavalry for all armies release (well done GW for ending one army at a time releases), The cynic in me says Boar Boyz will be FAQ altered somehow like Dark Elves were a while back. But not before. Maybe GW will have to look back over the book when they realise no-one is buying the new Boar Boyz as much as other cavalry releases as they have no place in the army at the moment.

Edit: Storak you cant mulitple post like that. All of that would have fit one post. A mod will change it.

fubukii
12-06-2008, 23:51
i disagree while expensive i think boar boys of the savage orc kind are very good


savge orc big un boar boys get like 25 str 5 attacks on the charge? i mean wow seriously that is some insane hitting power. they may be a little pricey, but they get a save vs cannons and bolt throwers, although they are less survivable vs handguns.

Gobbo Lord
13-06-2008, 00:01
Savage Boar Boyz are fine yes. For 1 point less than regular boar boyz you get immune to psychology, frenzy and a ward save. They cost more when you equip them with spears and shields but are all round better.

However the topic is about regular Boar Boyz and their insane cost both within the army and comparativly to other armies.

decker_cky
13-06-2008, 02:24
Why? The topic changed since the reason is that boar boyz were badly conceived in their current incarnation. Nothing to do with black knights in the least. Black knights are about right.

Shimmergloom
13-06-2008, 04:09
Your troops are balanced internally...rather than in a direct comparison with everything else.

More complete fantasy. They are not balanced internally.

goblins are not balanced to night goblins and goblins with shields are not balanced to orcs with shields and savage big'uns are not balanced to orc big'uns and boar boyz are not balanced to savage boar boyz and black orcs are not balanced with anything and stone and river trolls are not balanced with each other nor are they balanced to regular trolls and wolf chariots are not balanced with orc chariots and orc characters are not balanced with savage orc characters and savage orc shamans are not balanced with orc shamans and great cave squigs(no matter which of the 3 rulesets you use) are not balanced with gigantic spiders.

The only thing balanced internally spider riders vs wolf riders, basic orcs vs savage orcs.

Also, good grief people. Please read the actual army book before spouting off nonsense such as orcs getting 2 for 1 chariots(they don't) or savages having 25 S5 attacks. They don't. Savage boar boyz are S4 on the charge. The boars are S5 on the charge. Nogg's banner does not work on the boars, so to get 25 S5 attacks on the charge you need either savages 13 wide, or savage big'uns 5 wide which are 33pts each +15pt standard upgrade + w/nogg's banner for 25pts more.

And a unit of 5 calvary is very, very fragile, especially this one which is 33pts each and costs a total of 205pts, but will still fall like weeds to average crossbow/WE bow and gunfire.

sephiroth87
13-06-2008, 04:30
The Savage boars are pretty balanced. The regular boars work pretty well if you take a warboss (non black orc). In a fast moving orc army, this unit actually works pretty well. However, the savage boars are just hands down better. I'm not sure that a points drop below their old 6th edition price would have made them that much better. Instead, a special rule that differentiated them from the savages would have made it work well and given players a tough choice when deciding. Do they want the uncontrollable heavy hitter unit or the less hitty, but reliable unit?

I would have preferred them to be the exact opposite in temperament from the savage boars, with the ability to reroll squabble tests.

Kerill
13-06-2008, 04:33
Savages can get 25 S5 attacks- 5 savage boar boys, big un upgrade, spears, nogs banner= 25 attacks on the charge.

Normal board boyz are overpriced, no doubt about it, but savage ones aren't, so ou have a unit to fulfil the medium cavalry role that isn't too costly, what's the problem?

It seems lately all the board has been filled with O&Gs suck threads, they still seem to be doing pretty well in tourneys (in no small part to a certain screaming sword). And as for complaining about animosity and randomness- DON'T PLAY O&G THEN!

O&Gs have a huge range of units to choose from and several different play-styles (they can basically go anything heavy- war machines, magic, troops, cavalry) and are about on par with empire for options.

Cavalry may be a little undercosted/overcosted in some cases but generally I think only brets are brokenly undercosted for their abilities.

Mercules
13-06-2008, 05:33
Also, good grief people. Please read the actual army book before spouting off nonsense such as orcs getting 2 for 1 chariots(they don't)

So you don't get 2 wolf chariots for one slot? Did that change in 7th?

kylek2235
13-06-2008, 05:56
Yep, changed for 7th.

Boar Boyz being the way they are was part of a change in philosophy. Nothing More. When 6th edition wrapped up, the issue was that Heavy Cavalry ruled the roost and people were forsaking infantry all together (Think all Mounted Empire, Brets, Dark Elves, Mortal Chaos, High Elves that everyone took). Not just Matt, but Allesio and Gav stated that Cav was going to increase in points across the board. Well, they started to do that, but then decided the better way to increase infantry was to start giving them special rules and dropping points values. Orcs & Goblins were just on the wrong end of the stick.

As for whether or not Boar Boyz are any good, The possibility of wiping out my own unit by declaring a WAAAGH is just too good for me to justify their point costs.

kroq'gar
13-06-2008, 06:13
Please read the actual army book before spouting off nonsense such as orcs getting 2 for 1 chariots(they don't) or savages having 25 S5 attacks. They don't. Savage boar boyz are S4 on the charge. The boars are S5 on the charge. Nogg's banner does not work on the boars, so to get 25 S5 attacks on the charge you need either savages 13 wide, or savage big'uns 5 wide which are 33pts each +15pt standard upgrade + w/nogg's banner for 25pts more.


Actually... frenzy now effects the boars, so savage boarboyz have two st 5 from the boar, and 2 st 4 on the charge.

Chariots are no longer 2 for 1, but you can still field 8 in a 2000 point list- they are now counted as mounts for the characters and no longer bought as normal.

Night goblins are balanced to goblins- they are cowardly but havea 5+save in combat vs the goblins base of 6+. Night goblin bowmen are cowardly but cheaper, thanks to no armour and the ability to swap their shields.

Savage orcs get less save and are bated vs orcs not baitable & higher armour, but panicing and one less attack.

Savage orc cavalry are devestating without an upgrade, and murderous when upgraded to biguns vs R&F.

Orc cavalry costs more due to high toughness, st5 mounts, and the fact they wanted less cavalry in a supposedly footslogging army. Also, dont foget the Waaaagh can add to their chargerange for free- so if you've managed to get them up one flank and facing inwards, they can ride over things not expecting it.

The Clairvoyant
13-06-2008, 06:55
Nope, there isn't much in the way of an explanation. When 7th Edition was released, it was rumored that the points for cavalry was going to be increasing across all books as they were released. Well, they were true to their word when the O&G book came out, but the remainder of the books have not seen such a point increase.


This, and some other posts in this thread refer to cavalry poits costs going up, but according to the OnG players, it only happened to them.

As the OP refers to Black Knights, maybe it should be pointed out that they went from 23 to 24 pts unbarded and from 25 to 28 pts barded.
Maybe my accountant brain isn't quite working at the moment, but i'm fairly sure that that is an increase.


There are certainly a lot of threads and posts about regarding the greenskins.
If i remember rightly, orc players get one of the most diverse army selections around. They have shooting, they have tough combat troops, they have hordey troops, they have cavalry, they have chariots, they have monsters and they get war machines. And of course those nasty black orc characters.
Yet still people will complain about selection and make cross-army comparisons.

My advice to is stop making these "all-comers", "competitive" "tournament" armies and just have a game with a mate and have fun. I haven't won a game for about 2 years, but i don't care because i have fun with my army.
Maybe its time you did the same. :)

Maarten K
13-06-2008, 08:07
GW builds the army listst is such a way that players are guided (forced?) to play in a certain style. OnG are guided to play with big blocks of infantry, brettonians with big buses of cavalry, high elves with many elite infantry units etc. Many choices that do not support that particular style of play are either nerfed ruleswise or overcosted, thus guiding the players along into the desired style of play.

Condottiere
13-06-2008, 10:01
GW builds the army listst is such a way that players are guided (forced?) to play in a certain style. OnG are guided to play with big blocks of infantry, brettonians with big buses of cavalry, high elves with many elite infantry units etc. Many choices that do not support that particular style of play are either nerfed ruleswise or overcosted, thus guiding the players along into the desired style of play.

Hey, that's information is only permitted to be known to the Sacred Inner Circle of Game Designers.

You would destroy the bliss of the rest of humanity by revealing such explosive knowledge.:skull:

Gazak Blacktoof
13-06-2008, 10:05
It seems lately all the board has been filled with O&Gs suck threads, they still seem to be doing pretty well in tourneys (in no small part to a certain screaming sword).


I believe that was shown to be a load of tosh in the thread in tactics sub-forum.

EDIT


As the OP refers to Black Knights, maybe it should be pointed out that they went from 23 to 24 pts unbarded and from 25 to 28 pts barded.

Maybe my accountant brain isn't quite working at the moment, but i'm fairly sure that that is an increase.


They also now beneift from ethereal movement. Worth at least one point per model surely? Everybody always took barding for 2 points. I guess it went up in price because it was a no-brainer.

Maarten K
13-06-2008, 10:37
Hey, that's information is only permitted to be known to the Sacred Inner Circle of Game Designers.

You would destroy the bliss of the rest of humanity by revealing such explosive knowledge.:skull:

:D I will report to the inquisition for due penance....

point is though that these discussions are kind of mute. Yes, in every list there are certain units that are overcosted/underpowered, they are there for fluff reasons or for use against specific types of enemies.

Most wargames are troubled by balance issues like these. the price/effectiveness of cavalry vs infantry vs ranged units. The greater variety of units a system contains, the more imballanced some units will be, There's nothing to be done about it, but waiting for the next edition when there will undoubtebly be another unit that has become overcosted/underpowered.

best thing is to pick a unit either because you like it (looks or use, or preferably both) or for (cost)effectivenes, and not worry about the why.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
13-06-2008, 10:40
again: waaagh will WIPE OUT a 150 points unit of 5 boar boys in 1 out of 18 cases.

the D6 move does NOT compensate this risk!

So you bung your General or a Hero in them. Kicks up their kill ratio, and gets them a bonus on that D6.

But no, lets remain all doom and gloom.

GW hate Orcs and Goblins the most. Except for Orc and Goblin players, and the book is actually a thinly veiled form of suicide cult, designed to drive the players to despair and a long drop off a cliff....

God I hate this website sometimes.

Lordsaradain
13-06-2008, 10:42
People, people! The Orc and Goblin codex IS inferior to the other new 7th Ed codexes. While all armies have received a major buff from 6th to 7th(barring prehaps Empire, their buff was not that major), Orcs and Goblins were actually nerfed in the 7th Ed. Orcs and Goblins can be great fun to play, but they aren't an army that WAAC:y players can rely on.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
13-06-2008, 10:44
GOOD.

Stuff Tournaments. Stuff WAAC. The minority should not have their way!

Urgat
13-06-2008, 10:48
Also, dont foget the Waaaagh can add to their chargerange for free- so if you've managed to get them up one flank and facing inwards, they can ride over things not expecting it.

Right. I wonder why I even bother posting.

The Clairvoyant
13-06-2008, 10:58
GOOD.

Stuff Tournaments. Stuff WAAC. The minority should not have their way!

Thank you!
All i ever read on here is about tournaments and i'm sure that most players of the game don't play tournaments.

Gobbo Lord
13-06-2008, 10:58
GW hate Orcs and Goblins the most. Except for Orc and Goblin players, and the book is actually a thinly veiled form of suicide cult, designed to drive the players to despair and a long drop off a cliff....

Another rant. Yes. But although the thread has turned its attention mainly to Boar Boyz it is about Cavalry points costs compared to other Cavalry units. Clearly Some are overcosted when comparing their abilities to other Cavalry units. Not by a bit but by a long shot.

I have no problem (well niggles) with the orc army and have played them since fourth edition. I just made a thread about two points giving, Ethereal Movement, Fear, Immune to Psychology, lances, the ablity to be raised (albeit slowly). Although they can not march without a vampire within six every vampire army has many vampires. It is not just the characters, Blood Knights, Vargulfs, Black Coaches all apply this radius rule also. So the chances of them not marching is very small indeed.To counter this they crumble due to combat res.

To equip a spear on a normal infantry man is 1 point. So to get all of those extra abilities for the price of 2 spears, And there is no chance they wont move on average one turn out of six. You could easily compare them to Empire Knights just as well although the comparison to Boar Boyz makes the point more clearly.

I made the thread because

1: I had a unit of 12 Boar Boyz with a Big Boss painted up for last edition. They were expensive but had two ranks, looked good and were fieldable. They are now a unit of 6 with full command and the Big Boss has joined some Rank and File (Only when army theme dictates no Black Orcs). The other 5 were sold on Ebay as they were gathering dust.
2: They were the unit i compared to the other armies Cavalry because they are the unit i know. I dont have all the army books and was generally shocked when i read the Vampire Counts book. It also happens they are the best example of the topic i wished to raise. Rumours of Chaos Knights being cheeper than Blood Knights but superior in combat and movement im sure will only fuel this discussion.

Not to talk trash about my favourite army. To make a point about unit points cost discrepencies between army books. Books being internally balanced is a joke, someone (sorry cant remember who) got it right when they said if that was right youd see more armies with Boar Boyz in.

W0lf
13-06-2008, 11:00
Boar boys suck.

Its a fact get over it. Every army book has non-competitive options. It sucks that they might be a unit you want but meh, **** happens.

Have you tried discussing the cost with opponents?

Im a power-gamer and so are my group but im 99% sure we would all agree to drop boar boyz by 2/3 pts a model. Not much but hardly shabby.

Even if you took 20 of them you'd only save 40-60 pts. Thats hardly game-breaking.

- This post was brought to you in reference of point 5 of my sig.

Gobbo Lord
13-06-2008, 11:05
Right. I wonder why I even bother posting.

Dont worry Urgat, no matter how many times you tell people that Boar Boyz gain no advantages from the waaagh rule and it in fact endangers them more than helps them when it is called. There will always be someone who says, but they get an extra d6 when the waaagh is called. This is due to people not actually knowing how the rule works and just thinking all units gain a bonus.

And putting your higher leadership General in a fast moving unit therefore seperating him from your awfull leadership rank and file is not smart. Especially in an army comprised mainly of low leadership Rank and file.

Gazak Blacktoof
13-06-2008, 11:16
@Clairvoyant and MDG

Eh? I don't play in tournaments. I do know which units work and which units don't though. Its presumptuous to assume that anybody that wants to start adjusting points costs or rules is some sort of net-listing-cheese-monger that eats kittens.

Adjusting the cost of boar boyz wont suddenly make the list brilliant it will make boar boyz useful again though. There's nothing WAAC about wanting to use the models you've got to make more interesting lists.

+++++++

@ W0lf

I've already started testing them at 18 points a model and will do so for the entirety* of the summer during a small might empires style campaign.

*Assuming they aren't then massively too cheap or expensive.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
13-06-2008, 11:20
And theres the difference.

If your not playing in Tournaments, and instead playing with friends, raise the issue with them. Then do a bit of playtesting in your own group until everyone is more or less happy with the adjusted points. Biggedybiggedybong, problem solved.

Shimmergloom
13-06-2008, 12:30
Then why don't Dark Elf players do the same thing? Why didn't HE players before their new book do that?

Why don't Mortals players all just talk to their gaming groups and make up new rules for Daemon Princes and just allow the 3 army books to be mixed and maxed as they see fit?

The answer is because that is no solution. And that we pay GW to balance their own rules and books, not expect us to do it for them.

And your point about putting your general in the boar boy unit is lunacy as a solution.

Why don't vamp player just put a vampire in their unit to always solve the march issue? Your very first post is trying to justify the black knight point cost because they can't march without a vamp nearby and then you try and justify the orc boar boy cost by saying, 'Just put your general in the unit!'.

!?!?

The_Dragon_Rising
13-06-2008, 12:39
A thread on overpriced cavalry and nobody mentions saurus cavalry. Sure boar boyz aren't good but saurus IIRC cost a lot more and compared to a unit of 5 savage boar boyz have a lot less attacks.

snyggejygge
13-06-2008, 12:42
Actually they have the exact same number of attacks...

Gazak Blacktoof
13-06-2008, 13:25
And theres the difference.

"And there's the difference"?

What are you on about?:confused:

I (and the rest of my group) think they're a poor unit so we're trying something out. Do I think that just because my group doesn't mind messing about with the rules that other people should be subjected to having a duff choice? No.

Are people that don't create house rules not allowed to think boar boyz are crappy?

Storak
13-06-2008, 13:26
Actually... frenzy now effects the boars, so savage boarboyz have two st 5 from the boar, and 2 st 4 on the charge.

a rule that will benefit all other frency mounted troops as well.


Chariots are no longer 2 for 1, but you can still field 8 in a 2000 point list- they are now counted as mounts for the characters and no longer bought as normal.

you can, if you don t think that having your characters in your low leadership is a good idea. you can, if you are not worried about animosity at all. you can, if you don t think you will need a pair of boltthrowers.


Night goblins are balanced to goblins- they are cowardly but havea 5+save in combat vs the goblins base of 6+. Night goblin bowmen are cowardly but cheaper, thanks to no armour and the ability to swap their shields.

that is, why you see that many common goblins on foot on the battlefield these days?!?


Savage orcs get less save and are bated vs orcs not baitable & higher armour, but panicing and one less attack.

yes, this is a part that works indeed.


Savage orc cavalry are devestating without an upgrade, and murderous when upgraded to biguns vs R&F.

they are FRENZY. many players consider it a DISADVANTAGE!


Orc cavalry costs more due to high toughness, st5 mounts, and the fact they wanted less cavalry in a supposedly footslogging army.

funny one. the Black Knights are T4 as well.
and as we all agree that savage orc boar boys are much better, they don t really get "less" cavalry. they just get more UNPREDICTABLE cavalry.

the combination of freny and animosity is horrible. most players want to have some control over the movement of their units!


Also, dont foget the Waaaagh can add to their chargerange for free- so if you've managed to get them up one flank and facing inwards, they can ride over things not expecting it.

and again: WAAAGH is HORRIBLE for boar boys!

Storak
13-06-2008, 13:44
This, and some other posts in this thread refer to cavalry poits costs going up, but according to the OnG players, it only happened to them.

4 points! they went up by 4 points! i am looking forward to more examples of the cavalry price increase!
and new animosity makes live HARDER for them!


As the OP refers to Black Knights, maybe it should be pointed out that they went from 23 to 24 pts unbarded and from 25 to 28 pts barded.
Maybe my accountant brain isn't quite working at the moment, but i'm fairly sure that that is an increase.

1 point for etheral movement? sounds like a bargain, not an increase!



There are certainly a lot of threads and posts about regarding the greenskins.
If i remember rightly, orc players get one of the most diverse army selections around. They have shooting, they have tough combat troops, they have hordey troops, they have cavalry, they have chariots, they have monsters and they get war machines. And of course those nasty black orc characters.
Yet still people will complain about selection and make cross-army comparisons.

they became more random this edition. and most players don t consider them to be competetive.
but i am really happy that they are so much more diverse than empire, for example....


My advice to is stop making these "all-comers", "competitive" "tournament" armies and just have a game with a mate and have fun. I haven't won a game for about 2 years, but i don't care because i have fun with my army.
Maybe its time you did the same. :)

yes, i could just have fun with my broken army. or GW could fix it by writing a simple errata. funny, but i chose option 2!

---------------------

didn t someone want to point out the DIFFERENCE of the roles of the Knights and the boar boys in their armies?

i am still waiting!

(the major problem is: while there have been quite some complains about the new vampire army, they didn t seem to focus on their black knights. think about it..)

Mad Doc Grotsnik
13-06-2008, 13:52
"And there's the difference"?

What are you on about?:confused:

I (and the rest of my group) think they're a poor unit so we're trying something out. Do I think that just because my group doesn't mind messing about with the rules that other people should be subjected to having a duff choice? No.

Are people that don't create house rules not allowed to think boar boyz are crappy?

Actually, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. If you find something crappy, change it. Thats my attitude.

Shimmergloom
13-06-2008, 15:02
You are impossible. You think it's just so easy to get a group of people to agree that boar boyz should be cheaper, when you can't even get the people in this thread to agree that boar boyz are crap!

I had a dragonrune orc on a 50mm base that I made scenic and was counting it as a warboss and 3 normal orcs. But I could not get all my opponents to agree to this. Many did, many would not.

So I eventually had to just take him off the base and stick him in a chariot to avoid the issue.

So how do you expect this to be a solution, 'oh just work it out amongst yourselves and not hold GW responsible for charging you $22 for a glorified catalog.'

Kerill
13-06-2008, 15:30
I believe that was shown to be a load of tosh in the thread in tactics sub-forum.

EDIT




They also now beneift from ethereal movement. Worth at least one point per model surely? Everybody always took barding for 2 points. I guess it went up in price because it was a no-brainer.

Ahh great to be presented evidence that it's a load of old tosh. Oh wait, you didn't did you?

Normal boar boyz are overcosted I agree, but I don't buy into this whole "O&G are the worst army in warhammer boohooohooo:cries::cries:" nonsense that has appeared on the forums the last two or three weeks. They aren't "top tier" but they are hardly unplayable and are hardly sucking on the teat of pure crapness that ogres, dogs of war, dark elves (well for a little bit longer) beasts of chaos and warriors of chaos are.

At the end of the day they are O&G when luck is your way they are night on unstoppable, when against you you are shafted. They are a fun army that is in no way unplayable.

Anyway since we are talking about cavalry fairness:
Saurus cavalry are overpriced
Boar Boyz are overpriced
Non chosen, non khorne knights are overpriced (although better in the WD list)
Questing knights are overcosted (due to the change in rules)
TK Heavy horsemen are overcosted
Cold one knights are overcosted
Warhawk riders are overcosted

Undercosted:
Knights of the realm
Knights Errant
Dragon princes (by 2 points I'd say)
Grail Knights
Pegasus Knights

Shimmergloom
13-06-2008, 16:59
They aren't "top tier" but they are hardly unplayable and are hardly sucking on the teat of pure crapness that ogres, dogs of war, dark elves (well for a little bit longer) beasts of chaos and warriors of chaos are.

Dark elves are getting a book in 6 weeks that will put them above O&G, with 27pt cold one knights with 2 attack lizards, just 5pts more than a boar boy. Mortals get one in about 3-4 months that will put them above both. DoW don't have a book so are not even relevant to the discussion.

Which leaves beasts and ogres who are on par with greenskins at the bottom of the barrel.

As for saurus cav, they have more attacks than a boar boy, better mounts, cause fear and are cold blooded. They are overcosted, but still far superior to boar boyz and lizzies get a new book next Febuary which given the current trend, will make them much better than they are currently. They are certain to get 2 attacks per cold one as the DE cold ones are going to get.

Malorian
13-06-2008, 17:10
Undercosted:
Knights of the realm
Knights Errant
Dragon princes (by 2 points I'd say)
Grail Knights
Pegasus Knights

Oh oh, my Bret-hater senses are tingling...

innerwolf
13-06-2008, 17:15
Dark elves are getting a book in 6 weeks that will put them above O&G, with 27pt cold one knights with 2 attack lizards, just 5pts more than a boar boy. Mortals get one in about 3-4 months that will put them above both. DoW don't have a book so are not even relevant to the discussion.

Which leaves beasts and ogres who are on par with greenskins at the bottom of the barrel.

As for saurus cav, they have more attacks than a boar boy, better mounts, cause fear and are cold blooded. They are overcosted, but still far superior to boar boyz and lizzies get a new book next Febuary which given the current trend, will make them much better than they are currently. They are certain to get 2 attacks per cold one as the DE cold ones are going to get.


It has been confirmed by Dark Alliance in Druchii.net that cold ones won't gain +1 attack. Maybe this change your oppinion about this issue.
Cold one knights will be good,but not amazing.
Saurus cavalry,as it stands, is one of the worst cavalries for their price. Stupidity,3+ save for 35 points.
Biggun orc boys are 30, same save, not stupid, and nearly the same attacks on the charge(1+1 strenght 5 attacks instead of 2 strenght 5 attacks and 1 strenght 4 attack). They stay 5 points cheaper for the lack of fear and 1 strenght 4 attack. More than reasonable.
They won't get 2 attacks cold ones, by the way.

Shimmergloom
13-06-2008, 17:29
They also have animosity which is SO MUCH WORSE than stupidity with cold blooded rules.

So for 5pts saurus get +1S4 attack, fear, cold blooded and the ability to take spawnings.

For 5pts less the big'uns boar boyz get animosity, less attacks and the 17% chance to lose D6 models when you declare a waaagh!

Malorian
13-06-2008, 17:34
They also have animosity which is SO MUCH WORSE than stupidity with cold blooded rules.

So for 5pts saurus get +1S4 attack, fear, cold blooded and the ability to take spawnings.

For 5pts less the big'uns boar boyz get animosity, less attacks and the 17% chance to lose D6 models when you declare a waaagh!

Saurus cav can't take spawnings.

I don't think you've ever felt the pain of your expensive cav moving up for some reason and having nothing you can do about it. At least when you move forward you can move again and can charge.

You might lose models 17% of the time, but you have to keep in mind that atleast 17% of the time they are getting extra movement. The two cancel out in the long run. Just part of being orcs ;)

YTY
13-06-2008, 17:38
Yes, some cavalry points costs are really odd...

For example, glade riders and black knights.
The same points cost.

Glade riders have:
-fast cavalry and 1 higher M
-better I and WS
-longbows

Black knights have:
-ethereal movement
-1 more S and T
-3+ save compared to 6+
-ITP and fear
-lance (S6 in charge!)
-KB and magical attacks

GR are core and that makes up for some of the difference, but still...
Glade riders should be like 20pts. and Black knight like 26.

Malorian
13-06-2008, 17:40
Yet a unit of 5 glade guard will beat a unit of 5 black knights every time (cause you just can't catch em and they just keep shooting you).

This cross-army comparisions just don't work. The points are based on how good they are and how they work within the army.

Shimmergloom
13-06-2008, 17:42
Saurus cav can't take spawnings.

I don't think you've ever felt the pain of your expensive cav moving up for some reason and having nothing you can do about it. At least when you move forward you can move again and can charge.

You might lose models 17% of the time, but you have to keep in mind that atleast 17% of the time they are getting extra movement. The two cancel out in the long run. Just part of being orcs ;)

Uh, yes you do feel that pain. Because like you said 17% of the time they will move up and I cannot stop them.

so if there's an eagle sitting off to their left, they suddenly have to start moving toward it instead of the knight unit that I wanted them to charge. Wheeling out of the charge arc that I originally had them in. You people need to stop pretending that this extra move is always a good thing. IT IS NOT.

As it stands 17% of the time they will fail animosity. There is absolutely nothing I can do to stop them from rolling a 1. All I can do is increase the chances that during a 1, I take D6 S5 hits on my 22-30pt per model unit.

At least with lizards they can decrease that 11.4% chance of failing stupidity by having a character in the unit or general near or in the unit.

Gobbo Lord
13-06-2008, 17:43
You might lose models 17% of the time, but you have to keep in mind that atleast 17% of the time they are getting extra movement. The two cancel out in the long run. Just part of being orcs

How does gaining d6 movement on average one turn a game, cancel out losing 14 inches of movement on average one turn a game!? Are people reading the whole thread or just the last three or four posts and adding their own already discussed 2 cents.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
13-06-2008, 17:45
Easy. Because being Cavalry, they aren't depending on moving 6 turns in a game.

An if they are, you are doing something pretty wrong.

Malorian
13-06-2008, 17:45
If D6 takes your target out of the charge arc then you weren't placed right in the first place.

And I'd much rather have my cav not move from anamosity than move forward from stupidity. All it does is put you in range of more ranged weapons and charges.

Shimmergloom
13-06-2008, 17:47
No, cross army comparisons DO WORK when you are comparing 2 units in different armies that fullfill the same role.

glade guard and black knights do not fullfill the same role, which is that of medium-heavy cav.

boar boyz(both types), empire knights, silver helms, black knights, knights of the realm, cold ones, saurus cav and wild riders, etc fullfill the same roles.

Glade guard are more comparable to other fast-light cav units.

Super cav units such as dragon princes, inner circle, grail knights, chaos knights(both types), juggernaught crushers or whatever they are called, vamp knights and savage big'uns are in another category altogether.

Malorian
13-06-2008, 17:48
How does gaining d6 movement on average one turn a game, cancel out losing 14 inches of movement on average one turn a game!? Are people reading the whole thread or just the last three or four posts and adding their own already discussed 2 cents.

Because it only matters once. It's not like you are lining up a charge every turn.

If it happens the first turn it's no big deal because you should be in charge range your self.

You will probably be charging turn two so there is a 1/6 chance you will move forward and a 1/6 chance you won't (even). After that you are in combat, overrunning, or dead.

Gobbo Lord
13-06-2008, 17:51
No they shouldnt, but as cavalry it is annoying when they squabble when they should charge, or as Shimmergloom says you line up a charge and roll a six, your unit wheeling to face and move towards the nearest enemy. Which is a unit of scouts it can see in a forest, losing line of sight to what you wanted to charge. (experience). You can be placed perfectly but if you roll a six and wheel five and move forward 1 to face the scouts there is nothing you can do.

The comparison with the Glade Gaurd and Black Knights is another good example of crazy Cavalry points costs. Clearly the Black Knights should be more expensive but they are the same price. Although the Wood Elves will be redone towards the end of 7th edition and the problem may be addressed and they are two different forms of Cavary. Fast Cavalry pays a lot of points for its movement bonus' which may go a small way to explaining this.

Shimmergloom
13-06-2008, 17:52
If D6 takes your target out of the charge arc then you weren't placed right in the first place.

And I'd much rather have my cav not move from anamosity than move forward from stupidity. All it does is put you in range of more ranged weapons and charges.

Both accomplish the same things. They keep you from being able to charge what you want to charge and give the enemy another round of shooting at you.

You're only going to move up 3.5 inches from failing stupidity(which is far less likely than failing animosity even at your basic 7 cold blooded leadership). Nothing that worries about ranges is going to be affected by this. Not bolt throwers, stone throwers, cannons, etc. And not WE or HE bowmen with their 30 inch ranges( if they even bother to shoot at you). Those are the things that are going to target your saurus cav, not regular bowmen or skinks or a repeater crossbow.

and at least you got to move. You move 0 from a failed animosity roll. You just sit there as a sitting duck for a turn.

Shimmergloom
13-06-2008, 17:54
Because it only matters once. It's not like you are lining up a charge every turn.

If it happens the first turn it's no big deal because you should be in charge range your self.

You will probably be charging turn two so there is a 1/6 chance you will move forward and a 1/6 chance you won't (even). After that you are in combat, overrunning, or dead.

no it only matters once on average. In reality it matters many more times than once.

On average you will fail a stupidity test with saurus cav less than one time a game. And yet you are still using this as a basis for them being worse than orc boar boyz.

Gazak Blacktoof
13-06-2008, 18:20
Actually, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. If you find something crappy, change it. Thats my attitude.

Perhaps I did but the rest of your posts in this thread seemed to come across as either "boar boyz are fine" or "suck it up". Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick.


Ahh great to be presented evidence that it's a load of old tosh. Oh wait, you didn't did you?


Go and find the thread if you want.


You've not put forward any evidence that boar boyz are great or that orcs are a fantasticly powerful army in the tournament scene (or elsewhere) so I don't see why I should be doing all the leg work when you were the one making the claim.

Once there's something to disprove I'll see what I can dig up.

Mercules
13-06-2008, 18:21
Glade guard are more comparable to other fast-light cav units.

Actually they are very comparable to archers because they are foot troops. You mean Glade Riders.

And yes YTY is comparing Apples to Grapes.

WEs do not have medium cavalry much less heavy. Closest thing is Wild Riders of Kurnos with their 5+ AS and 5+/6+ ward save, and it is really not very close. They don't wheel except on the charge and can outmaneuver most Heavy Cavalry but not outfight them.

Urgat
13-06-2008, 18:32
Easy. Because being Cavalry, they aren't depending on moving 6 turns in a game.

Because being cavalry, they don't depend on getting the charge? Coz that's what that 1 means.
Though to be honest, I don't care about the 1 result, it's always been there, I know how to avoid it being too bad. But that 6, can't do anything against it, besides always being closest to the target I wanna charge. And THAT goes against my ways of preventing a catastrophe if I roll a 1.

Malorian
13-06-2008, 18:35
Saurus cav will fail stupidity 11% of the time.
Boar boyz will roll a 1 for anamosity 17% of the time.

Not a huge difference.

However, 17% of the time the boarboyz get exta movement
and 0% of the time saurus cav will get extra movement.

That is a huge difference.

If you put a hero in a unit of saurus cav or keep them near the general you can decrease the change of failing stupidity.

If you run boyboyz up the flank you can basically eliminate the 'baiting' of your units.

Orcs are a horde army that need fast units (boarboyz) to take away ranks.

Lizardmen are an elite army that need fast units (saurus cav) to keep the enemy cav at bay.

Both are fine and the right points for their role.

W0lf
13-06-2008, 18:45
I think saurus cavalry suck thou.

3+ save heavy cavalry for their cost???

DEEEEEEEAD. What a points sink.

Oh and shimmergloom your right. Changing rules to make things fairer amongst agreeing adults is le. we shoud totally leave people unhappy when their are easy solution!!!

Gobbo Lord
13-06-2008, 19:13
If D6 takes your target out of the charge arc then you weren't placed right in the first place.

There seems to be a common misconception that the result of a 6 on the animosity table results in the unit moving forward d6 inches. This is not the case. The unit moves d6 inches towards the nearest enemy unit it can see. Obviously this can be as bad if not worse than standing still. Units can wheel out of charge arcs and in front of freindly units in an attempt to close the gap between them and the nearest enemy unit.

You can be placed fine for a charge into a unit of, say, saurus warriors. With some skink skirmishers also in your line of sight off to the extreme left or right of your unit but also physically closer to you than the Saurus. You roll a six and must manuvre the unit d6 inches to face and move towards the skinks (which could well be wthin a wooded area. Screwing up your charge arc and leaving the Saurus' out of line of sight for the declare charges phase of movement.


Changing rules to make things fairer amongst agreeing adults is LE. we shoud totally leave people unhappy when their are easy solution!!!

This statement means you are aware that parts of the game are unfair and need to be altered "between agreeing adults" to make them so. This is what the whole thread is about. Unfairness in points costs for Cavalry across all books, with emphasis on Boar Riders because they are the best comparitive example.

minionboy
13-06-2008, 19:24
I think saurus cavalry suck thou.

Have you played against Saurus Cavalry much? They're not as armored as other Heavy Cavalry (in most cases only by 1 point of armor), but they have 2 attacks each, cause fear, T4, can take the banner to get -1 to be shot at, oh and their mounts are Str 4 too!

I clever opponent wont let you shoot at his Saurus Cavalry much, anyone that runs them in the front of the army deserves for them to get shot up.

That is a whole lot that most other Cavalry doesn't get. It's kind of silly to be obssessed with one slight weakness to ignore a fat pile of benefits.

Storak
13-06-2008, 20:05
Easy. Because being Cavalry, they aren't depending on moving 6 turns in a game.

An if they are, you are doing something pretty wrong.

i must be playing a different game....

in the WHFB that i am playing, getting the charge IS important for cavalry. if you want flank charges
if you need flank charges you have to move multiple times. if you need combined charges (and yes, boar boys need them..) several units might need to pass a test.

overrunning is nice, but it is slightly optimistic to assume that you overrun in 4 or 5 turns..

in the WHFB that i am playing, making random moves and wheels of 1d6 inch makes a difference.

-----------------

i don t think that it makes lots of sense to compare the orc boars to a dark elf unit, when we don t know the full rules and costs.
but my wish for the dark elf players are OPTIONS to handle the stupidity randomness.

a major problem with 7th edition orcs is a lack of such options.

Kerill
14-06-2008, 02:42
Oh oh, my Bret-hater senses are tingling...

...Bows his head in shame ;) I do think they are undercosted for all their special rules though, even more so in 7th with ranking 5 wide. Questing knights being overcosted though.





Go and find the thread if you want.


You've not put forward any evidence that boar boyz are great or that orcs are a fantasticly powerful army in the tournament scene (or elsewhere) so I don't see why I should be doing all the leg work when you were the one making the claim.

Once there's something to disprove I'll see what I can dig up.

I don't recall at any point claiming that orcs were a fantastically powerful army I think you need to re-read posts. They have however been doing pretty well in the Australian scene it seems, here's a link for your crippled legs to follow

http://www.irresistibleforce.net/Articles/tabid/67/Default.aspx

As for me saying that boar boyz are great, the only thing I've said in this thread earlier was:

"Savages can get 25 S5 attacks- 5 savage boar boys, big un upgrade, spears, nogs banner= 25 attacks on the charge.

Normal board boyz are overpriced, no doubt about it, but savage ones aren't, so you have a unit to fulfil the medium cavalry role that isn't too costly, what's the problem?"

So did I say that boar boyz are great? No it seems I said there is no doubt they are overpriced but that savage ones are fine and fulfill a similar role. Since you are happy to disprove things, perhaps you can find where I said that boar boyz are tremendously wonderful bags of porcine joy not at all undercosted. If you can find where I said that I will consider myself "disproved". Or you could read people's posts before flaming them.

I still don't believe O&G are that underpowered though Gazak, but if you feel like flaming that then please do it via pm. Before you do though note that I said that they aren't "that underpowered" not "they are the most powerful army in warhammer"

as for new books coming out, that's the way it happens. DOW are a legitimate army, HOC and BOC even before the split were weaker than O&G or at best on par with them all the way through 6th and 7th
edition.

Finally calling a waagh miht be potentially dangerous for boar riders/savage riders but being given the chance to outcharge any cavaly unit in the game is still a massive advantage.

Gobbo Lord
14-06-2008, 08:22
Finally calling a waagh miht be potentially dangerous for boar riders/savage riders but being given the chance to outcharge any cavaly unit in the game is still a massive advantage.

You have the exact same chance of out charging any other cavalry unit during a Waaagh as you do any other turn of the game.

I think everyone is agreed, normal Boar Boyz are overpriced awfull troops. Why they are releasing them in plastic next year is beyond me. I wont be buying them as i already have a unit of six metal ones that dont see the light of day anymore.

Savage Orc Boar Boyz are much more powerfull and itp, but frenzied and animosity make for one hell of an uncontrollable unit.

As to orcs being underpowered i feel i must make my posistion clear on this. Though tournament averages (see thread on are orcs competative) is way below average (i believe it was 59 where as the expected average was 100, dont ask me how it worked). I agree with Mad Doc in that I play games with friends who have balanced armies with a bit of everything and who are fun to battle. However I would not dream of changing points costs etc as this leads to everyone doing so which begs the question, why play with the printed rules sets at all if we are changing things to our whim?

Although i am not a tournament player i do notice when certain units outperform others, in this case Savage Orc Boar Boyz over regular Boar Boyz. And so i use the more effective unit at the task (I may not play tournaments but i still enjoy winning). And when i read other army books and see units far superior in many many ways to similar units of mine only costing 2 points more i do question it. It does not mean i hate the army, in fact its the oppostie, i love them.

I think some people have misconceptions about key areas in the greenskin book. The biggest i have noticed due to this thread i have mentioned already, in that a result of 6 on the animosity chart, or even calling a waaagh (though you have the control here) does not result in adding a d6 move forward, it results in a d6 move towards the nearest enemy. People need to understand that this is not a great thing if you have lined up a charge to someone else further away than the nearest unit or end up in front of one of your own rank and file units at an awkward angle. I wish people would read this before posting things like, "but you get an extra d6 on the charge if you roll a six" as it is not always true, and the chances of it dont increase with small one rank units of boar boyz during the Waaagh AT ALL.

I dont think the army is underpowered, that depends on the player and how you use them. You can have bad luck with your dice and this is the army that will punish you the most for this stroke of misfortune. I do feel the army books have gone in a certain direction now and that Orcs and Goblins and the Empire have missed out on this. I only have to compare the thickness of the orc army book to the Deamons or Vampire Counts to see they have a lot more content. Intrestingly, i have all three Orc and goblin Books and each one is thinner than the last whilst being more expensive. There is a lot more background to the Greenskins than what we got in our book most of which, i swear to god, and have checked, was copied and pasted from the fourth edition book with certain paragraphs taken out and the odd line or two added here or there. This is why i think a lot of Greenskin players are angry. The book is shoddy compared to other 7th edition releases, no one can argue that it isnt because the proof is out there for all to see. Im not talking about rules, but content. We got a cut and pasted rehash of old material with lots of buy this now pictures whilst other books have decent histories and interesting reads.

I am not saying orcs are rubbish, i hate them, why dont they have a better book, just pointing out that their book is lacking in certain areas (the history of waaagh Grimgor is what?, two paragraphs long, when there is a perfectly good article on his history on the website which is infinently better. Mat Ward had already copied and pasted all the other information why couldnt he do the same for Grimgor). But i was pointing out what i saw to be an unjust points comparison between my troops and another same editions forces.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
14-06-2008, 08:56
Well I haven't used my common boar boyz in the 7ed yet, I have 14 normal ones and curently I'm building next to that unit a unit from 5 Pig'unz, later in the summer I will try an orc heavy army( black orcs, big'uns, normal boyz etc) so then I will try them out. I think they can perform good but you need to be carefull with them, but I will use them on the flanks and try to get off flank charges.

On the other hand I have in my standard mixed army a unit from 5 savage pig'uns and those are great 165pts for 20s5 attacks, those even rampage trough a fully ranked unit. And I use sometimes a unit from 9savage boar boyz with a warboss, that unit just minches everything in its way.

But I think that the standard boar boyz should be cheaper, in 6ed I found that 18pts was good, and when the 7ed rulebook came out the savages where undercosted 18pts for 4attacks was to cheap so I find that savage boar boyz are now rightly priced and that normal boar boyz should have stayed 18pts

Greetz
G

Gazak Blacktoof
14-06-2008, 09:20
"It seems lately all the board has been filled with O&Gs suck threads, they still seem to be doing pretty well in tourneys"

What I was reacting to was this assertion.

You then wanted me to show that they hadn't been doing well. Apparently I needed evidence when you didn't.

I'll take a look at the link you provided.

EDIT: There hasn't been any flaming at all in this thread that I can see.


Had a brief look at your link. You do know Andrew is one of the best players in Australia don't you?

Take a look at this thread for something more general.

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144748&page=5

If you listen to the recent episode of Podhammer (22) you can hear about his tactics with orcs and goblins. I seem to remember he mentions using a minimum sized savage orc boar unit but common boar boyz seem to get completely overlooked. Is it the same in his tournament lists?

His tactics seem to revolve around attempting to mitigate animosity as much as possible. Its a shame that this seems to be the best tactic available to greenskins when its their defining attribute.

The problem with only savage orc boar boyz being good is that some of us don't have savage oar boyz, last edition we used normal boar boyz, now (as you've said) they're rubbish. Why is that an acceptable situation?

Shimmergloom
14-06-2008, 09:55
That's a pretty funny link to try and prove that greenskins are doing great at tourneys.

The wyvern build has been agreed upon by most as being the only consistent greenskin build. Because you put all your hopes into 1 model to win the game for you.

No boar boyz at all, which 1st what this thread is about.

I think any army can do well if you just take a bunch of powered up characters and monsters and depend on them to win the game for you.

innerwolf
14-06-2008, 14:59
I arrive a bit late, but about the comparison between saurus cavalry and boar boyz, I have to add that keeping the general near the cold ones unit won't help a bit if we aren't talking about the big fat slann sitting in a rank and file unit in the back of the table. Saurus scar veterans and saurus oldblood (heroes and lords) have leadership 8.
I have the feeling some people haven't read the LM armybook before talking about them....

Mad Doc Grotsnik
14-06-2008, 15:10
Ld8, and roll 3D6, picking the lowest two, for Stupidity....

My Dark Elves have Ld9 and roll 2D6, yet never have a problem with Stupidity, once you factor it in.

Kahadras
14-06-2008, 15:46
To the OP. At the end of the day you always get units that are overcosted but recently I think GW have lost the plot slightly with cavalry. Cavalry creep seems to be appearing with the latest armies books (HE and Undead to be precise) and I'm interested to see how the new Cold One Knights turn out.

Kahadras

innerwolf
14-06-2008, 15:53
Ld8, and roll 3D6, picking the lowest two, for Stupidity....

My Dark Elves have Ld9 and roll 2D6, yet never have a problem with Stupidity, once you factor it in.

I wasn't saying stupidity is a huge problem for them; I was pointing that adding a character don't change anything for them, whereas having the general into boar boyz fully solves their problem.

PD. Why don't people add an Orc Big Boss to the unit? You get +1 to the Waagh roll and a lot more punch( more if mounted in an Ironback boar), and it could even be the BSB.

Shimmergloom
14-06-2008, 16:26
I wasn't saying stupidity is a huge problem for them; I was pointing that adding a character don't change anything for them, whereas having the general into boar boyz fully solves their problem.

PD. Why don't people add an Orc Big Boss to the unit? You get +1 to the Waagh roll and a lot more punch( more if mounted in an Ironback boar), and it could even be the BSB.

No it doesn't solve anything. You can only call the waaagh! once during the game. For 5 more turns they suffer just as much from rolling a 1 than ever. Moreso if your general is a black orc.

And then adding +1 to the waaagh! roll does nothing to stop a 1. A 1 still equals D6 dead orcs.

And the ironback boar is not suited for a big boss, it's too costly for a big boss and just right for a warlord.

And you need your bsb to carry Mork's banner. Period.

It should also be added that a unit of less than 5 models that suffer from animosity do not take the test and therefore can't Waaagh! The general's unit is exempt from this, but find a big boss in a unit with less than 5 models, which is pretty easy considering boar boyz of all types die like weeds to shooting and you can't even get the waaagh! with them.

which is probably more of a blessing.

Kerill
14-06-2008, 17:54
I'm sure Andrew is a good player but as a good player who wanted to win tournaments he chose O&G as did quite a few people in tournaments it seemed, most with wyvern, some without, but all with shaggas sword as far as I can see. He also states that he thinks that the waagh is awesome. These points show that O&G can be very competitive, even if it leans towards a certain lord setup. I'm sure the other tournament players in Oz aren't idiots either so the fact that Andrew is a great player doesn't mean the other players aren't.

The wyvern warboss is 440 points, a lot less than other win or lose models like greater daemons and star dragons (less than a quarter of your army). The warboar boss on boar is only 270 and has killing blow to boot. Apart from the black orc warboss and the screaming sword it seems their other units varied quite a bit suggesting that there are a lot of viable choices for orcs and goblins in their list.

Not having savage orc boar models, just boar riders would suck a bit but its probably the most straightforward "counts as" in the game, just let your opponent know.

kylek2235
14-06-2008, 20:28
Wow, pretty much everyone agrees that Boar Boyz are not cost effective for serious tournament play (Mad Doc being the dissenter for in house games), yet this thread continues like bad rash...

How the focus shifted to Orcs and Goblins being the worst army and whether or not Saurus Cav are worse than Boar Boyz, I'm not sure, but I think the O&G tournament tier status has been rehashed to death at this point.

No one's going to change there opinion, so for love of all that is Green, let this thread die!

logan054
14-06-2008, 22:05
Your troops are balanced internally...rather than in a direct comparison with everything else.

Ahh that explains the 40pts difference in a unit of marauders and Empire swordsmen the ;)

I have to say i agree on boar boyz being a total waste of points, while i agree that you cannot do a direct comparison of units from other books i can certainly get a rough idea of what a unit should be paying be costing.

If the chaos list is anything to go by then clearly Cavalry is going down in price, i guess the other factor is the real lack of Core cavalry in alot of armies (which is something i didnt realize till recently).

kroq'gar
15-06-2008, 03:39
They are orcs... if you want something serious play another army. Animosity is as much as part of them as green skin and oral based currency.

Tourny's mean didly... they are where people play to win with the hardest army they can construct. In an average joe vs joe game, played in the correct spirit (as far as grown men playing with plastic toys can go) a regiment of boars in the flank and some foot boyz to the front will send almost anything packing. Sure, the wights with the regen banner and something else absurd will beat them, but hey.... call the waaaambulance.

They are harder to use than some of their peers, but ultimately they can still do their role (hehe... terrible pun). Remember this little fact though- a vanilla boarboy dies to same to a shot as a big un, and costs less whilst at it. If you use savage big uns then some non savage boars riding shotgun are worth their weight in gold.

They are a little expensive but still viable. Saurus cav may be overcosted but that didnt stop me buying and fielding an effective army with 15 cav.

Heretic Burner
15-06-2008, 04:10
There is absolutely no reason at all O&G should be hampered with substandard rules simply because they are seen as an army for "fun". Nowhere in any of the rule books does it state that the game is balanced at a certain points level except for armies primarily painted green. O&G cavalry are clearly an abysmal mess, vastly underperforming for their points cost compared to other cavalry options in the game. Obviously the simplest solution is to adjust the points cost, the better solution to adjust the rules, the worst solution would be GW's response and simply do nothing.

Having the biggest disadvantage in the game one would expect O&G cavalry to be granted a substantial advantage(s) to make up for this deficiency. Clearly this is not the case. To no surprise with units such as this O&G are the very worst performing army statistically in the game. Perhaps the thread would be best served without a direct comparison of the unjust point cost of cavalry rather the unjust effectiveness of cavalry where the absolute putrid mess that is O&G cavalry can be elevated to where they need to be.

Kerill
15-06-2008, 07:55
There is absolutely no reason at all O&G should be hampered with substandard rules simply because they are seen as an army for "fun". Nowhere in any of the rule books does it state that the game is balanced at a certain points level except for armies primarily painted green. O&G cavalry are clearly an abysmal mess, vastly underperforming for their points cost compared to other cavalry options in the game. Obviously the simplest solution is to adjust the points cost, the better solution to adjust the rules, the worst solution would be GW's response and simply do nothing.

Having the biggest disadvantage in the game one would expect O&G cavalry to be granted a substantial advantage(s) to make up for this deficiency. Clearly this is not the case. To no surprise with units such as this O&G are the very worst performing army statistically in the game. Perhaps the thread would be best served without a direct comparison of the unjust point cost of cavalry rather the unjust effectiveness of cavalry where the absolute putrid mess that is O&G cavalry can be elevated to where they need to be.

Look, I'm not trying to annoy the O&G players but I simply can't agree that O&G cavalry suck. Wolf riders and spider riders are both tremendous units of light cavalry. O&G have no true heavy cavalry (and never have, 3+ save was the best they could ever get without the standard of shielding). They have two units of medium cavalry, one of which is overpriced by 2 points, the other is pointed correctly and is perhaps the hardest hitting medium cavalry in the game. Yes frenzy is a double edged sword, that's why you have to learn to plan when you have a frenzied unit, sticking in the front of the main battle line is indeed asking for it to be baited, by screening it or facing it appropriately if you don't want to screen it (facing it the opposite direction for example) until you want to use it. Yes you still might roll animosity, but thats part of the O&G playstyle. Orcs are a very useful and powerful unit for their points. Orcs aren't a cavalry army (unless its a wolf rider army), they are an infantry army. Still the fact that you can get a unit of medium cavalry which hits very hard for 115 points (statistically likely to break a unit of Ws3/4, T3, 4+ save infantry from the front on the charge- give me another cavalry unit that can do that for the price, on the charge and in subsequent rounds they kill more than a unit of 5 vanilla dragon princes, a unit we can agree are slightly underpriced). Am I saying Savage boyz are the best- no, they have weaknesses (less armour, easier to bait) and strengths (immune to psychology, ward save). But they are fair for their points and can do very well.

In my last tournament I crushed everything in battle except O&G who I lost to twice. I'm not whining because they are overpowered or because I lost to them, I love playing O&G because there is so much more tension in games against them with so many wacky but occasionally incredibly powerful things to deal with. Nothing is guaranteed against or with them- who would have thought a single fanatic would wipe out all 6 of my chosen knights of Khorne, certainly not me, but that's the way it goes, and it all adds to the excitement of playing against O&G. I would say if you did a poll (and there have been in the past) O&G would be most people's favourite army to play against. I imagine they would be both incredibly fun and sometimes frustrating to play with as well, and that's cool. They are the worst army at sticking to their general's battle plan but also one of the hardest armies to have a solid battle plan against.

Lord_Byron
15-06-2008, 09:51
Look, I'm not trying to annoy the O&G players but I simply can't agree that O&G cavalry suck. Wolf riders and spider riders are both tremendous units of light cavalry.

Animosity and abyssmal leadership makes these units less than tremendous. You need to bring multiple units to insure that the job will get done, which isn't so bad because they are cheap enough to do so with, but they really start tripping each other up and are very very vulnerable to cascading panic checks. I'm not complaining about them. But they sure aren't tremendous.

I think the reason why every thread which involves orcs, devolves into 'orcs are weak' discussions is that orcs are weak. So very weak that it is impossible to talk about orc tactics or units without addressing their overwhelming failings.

I've had alot of experience with them and can play them pretty competitively. But it's a damn shame that an army with so much variety and so many different tactical possibilities is just wasted because they are pigeonholed into very few viable/competitive builds.

Kahadras
15-06-2008, 14:53
I think the reason why every thread which involves orcs, devolves into 'orcs are weak' discussions is that orcs are weak

Personaly I feel the reason that threads involved with Orcs devolve down into 'Orcs are weak' discussions is that fact that some people seem to feel the need to devolve the thread down into an 'Orcs are weak' discussion. Yes Black Knight are better than Boar Boyz and we can probably find other examples of this imbalance when regarding cavalry. IMHO GW have gone rather overboard in both the HE and VC armies books when it comes to heavy cavalry.

Kahadras

Heretic Burner
15-06-2008, 18:12
Posters certainly can't be at fault for mentioning how weak orcs are, that blame falls squarely on the shoulders of GW for producing such a wretched book in the first place. The obscenely overpriced O&G cavalry is a symptom of a much larger problem, sure, but if those symptoms apply over and over again in such a wide number and variety of threads then it simply can't be discarded as an isolated incident.

As Lord_Byron has pointed out, the current state of O&G balance has left them so crippled that it simply has to be addressed before discussions can proceed. It sets the stage, the tone, the perspective of what is to follow in any analysis of tactics, units, and advice.

It is refreshing that so many greenskin players are able to provide a truthful statement about them to those unfamiliar with how truly dire the army is currently. I'm not sure GW will be around long enough before they get around to actually fixing the army but until then no player should be unaware with what they are getting into when they consider playing O&G.

Kahadras
15-06-2008, 19:02
Posters certainly can't be at fault for mentioning how weak orcs are

Indeed but it shouldn't become a reason to drag the topic off course. OK it's fine to metion that O&G Boar boyz are overcosted and you agree with the OP. What the thread doesn't need is a rant about how GW have ruined the Orcs, how crippled their armies book is, how they suck in tournaments, how much animosity blows etc etc.

Kahadras

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
15-06-2008, 21:10
well - to the contrary to popular belief i hae to say ork boar boys are priced correctly.

it is just other cavalry who is underpriced. all of them

Lord_Byron
16-06-2008, 01:55
well - to the contrary to popular belief i hae to say ork boar boys are priced correctly.

it is just other cavalry who is underpriced. all of them

Well said.

kroq'gar
16-06-2008, 03:16
the current state of O&G balance has left them so crippled that it simply has to be addressed before discussions can proceed. It sets the stage, the tone, the perspective of what is to follow in any analysis of tactics, units, and advice.


Saurus infantry are overcosted- my army is now useless and i cant possibley win.

I cant help but feel your missing the point of the orcs- randam mayhem. They are without a doubt the funnest army to play against. If they cant cut the mustard at a tourney (though i've seen much in this thread to the contrary), then perhaps they are better suited to friendly games, where they excell at adding entertainment. I love to fight orcs.

Winning isnt everything, its the playing of the game.

Voodoo Boyz
16-06-2008, 03:27
Saurus Cav are probably too expensive, but the fact that you can give them the one Banner that once per game gives them a D6" movement during the magic phase, no chance to dispel or react to the charge, makes them worth their hefty points cost.

Boar Boyz on the other hand, they're too expensive and unreliable for what they do.

The notion that "oh just have them cost less points in friendly games" is ridiculous BTW. It does not address tournament playing, or playing new people you're meeting at your local shop or in new stores or venues you're playing in.

Urgat
16-06-2008, 10:31
Saurus Cav are probably too expensive, but the fact that you can give them the one Banner that once per game gives them a D6" movement during the magic phase, no chance to dispel or react to the charge, makes them worth their hefty points cost.

The waaagh banner does more or less the same, you know.

Conotor
16-06-2008, 11:14
Attending a local game club for the first time last night i had my first look at the new vampire counts and deamons book. I was shocked to say the least.

Boar Boyz statistically can not move one turn in the game and one turn will move towards the nearest enemy by d6, not compensating for the loss of a 14 inch move. What is going on, 7th edition army book authors seem to be pricing units at their whim. if anyone can defend this or offer reasoning please go ahead.

I have never palyed against boar boyz. Don't they have a "boar tusk charge" thing?

Also, boar boys are supported by AMAZING orc shooting (fanatics and squigs), which allows them to break units easier.

Finally, crumbling hurts cavalry units more then breaking.

Bloodbale
16-06-2008, 11:30
Yea, for me ye can`t say that something is too cheap or too expensive, if yer not lookin` at tha whole army. If ye use saurus cav wisely and help them with skinks and salamander, points are not a problem. One unit is exp, another cheap. Everything okay. There are some mistakes in point costs, but this what ye sometimes sayin` is goin` too far!

Voodoo Boyz
16-06-2008, 21:17
The waaagh banner does more or less the same, you know.

No, no it does not.

It adds D6" to your charge move.

The banner for LM lets you move D6" in the Magic Phase, which means you can use it after you've marched 14" about 1" away from a units flank during the movement phase, and then they don't get a reaction from this move.

Plus you cause Fear, are WS4, S5 on the charge with 10 Attacks, plus 5 WS3 S4 attacks from your mounts.

There is a very big difference.

Heretic Burner
16-06-2008, 22:26
Saurus infantry are overcosted- my army is now useless and i cant possibley win.

There is certainly no evidence whatsoever that LM are a particularly weak army. There is however tremendous statistical evidence indicating O&G are the very weakest army in the game.



I cant help but feel your missing the point of the orcs- randam mayhem.

I certainly hope that isn't the point of the orcs. I should hope the point of the orcs is the same as the point of every other army in the game - to be an enjoyable army to collect within the context of the hobby from gaming, painting, modelling, etc.



They are without a doubt the funnest army to play against.


Nonsense. There is nothing that makes O&G particularly more fun to play against than any other army. There are certainly many things that make it less fun such as the lengthy setup, long cumpulsory phase, and dreadful balance. There is simply nothing to indicate that O&G are more fun than any other army in the game.



If they cant cut the mustard at a tourney (though i've seen much in this thread to the contrary), then perhaps they are better suited to friendly games, where they excell at adding entertainment. I love to fight orcs.


I'm sure many tournament players love to fight orcs too picking up very easy to collect battle points. If they can't cut the mustard in a tourney they should simply be altered so that they can indeed compete. Everyone benefits, perhaps most of all GW. As there is absolutely no difference in rules between "friendly" games and "tourney" games O&G are no more suited for "friendly" games either.



Winning isnt everything, its the playing of the game.

Yes and the current game is absolutely dreadfully poor. It would certainly be a lot closer to the ideal if O&G were a competitive army and balanced within the rules of the game. As it stands they simply aren't and ghastly boar boyz are a major reason for this.

Shimmergloom
16-06-2008, 23:24
If winning isn't important at all and O&G are the funnest army to play(they are fun from a background standpoint, not a rules standpoint) and that's all that should be important, then explain why EVERYONE doesn't play O&G?

Evidently, if you don't play O&G, then you are a power gamer who only cares about winning and not having fun. If you do play O&G, you shouldn't care about winning and only about having fun.

So yeah, that's utter nonsense.

Kerill
17-06-2008, 04:23
There is certainly no evidence whatsoever that LM are a particularly weak army. There is however tremendous statistical evidence indicating O&G are the very weakest army in the game.



I certainly hope that isn't the point of the orcs. I should hope the point of the orcs is the same as the point of every other army in the game - to be an enjoyable army to collect within the context of the hobby from gaming, painting, modelling, etc.



Nonsense. There is nothing that makes O&G particularly more fun to play against than any other army. There are certainly many things that make it less fun such as the lengthy setup, long cumpulsory phase, and dreadful balance. There is simply nothing to indicate that O&G are more fun than any other army in the game.



I'm sure many tournament players love to fight orcs too picking up very easy to collect battle points. If they can't cut the mustard in a tourney they should simply be altered so that they can indeed compete. Everyone benefits, perhaps most of all GW. As there is absolutely no difference in rules between "friendly" games and "tourney" games O&G are no more suited for "friendly" games either.



Yes and the current game is absolutely dreadfully poor. It would certainly be a lot closer to the ideal if O&G were a competitive army and balanced within the rules of the game. As it stands they simply aren't and ghastly boar boyz are a major reason for this.

Where is this tremendous statistical evidence then? O&G ARE a fun army to play against, there have been many polls for "what army do you like to play against" in the history of both portent and warseer and O&G have always been number 1.

O&G Are more suited for friendly games. Animosity can potentially help you or hurt you, but the latter is more likely. In a tournament where you have to win every game therefore, O&G aren't well suited unless you do things to mitigate animosity.In friendly games where you don't have to win every game it balances out much better


If winning isn't important at all and O&G are the funnest army to play(they are fun from a background standpoint, not a rules standpoint) and that's all that should be important, then explain why EVERYONE doesn't play O&G?

Evidently, if you don't play O&G, then you are a power gamer who only cares about winning and not having fun. If you do play O&G, you shouldn't care about winning and only about having fun.

So yeah, that's utter nonsense.

They are the funnest army to play against, whether they are fun to play with or not depends on the player- can you accept the random nature of O&G? If not, collect something else. Another reason to not collect O&G is the sheer cost of the army- they and skaven are the most expensive armies to collect.

And as for this:

"Evidently, if you don't play O&G, then you are a power gamer who only cares about winning and not having fun. If you do play O&G, you shouldn't care about winning and only about having fun."

Why do you feel obliged to claim that people said something that they didn't. No one made this statement except you, I agree its utter nonsense, so why are you having nonsense discussions with yourself on an internet forum?

I agree O&G are a weak army, certainly NOT the weakest though. I agree boar boyz are overcosted BUT savage ones aren't. I agree that O&G seldom come top in tournies BUT they can still place damn high regardless, and winning a tourney is difficult for O&G due to animosity BUT it doesn't have such a huge effect in friendly games where if you win 3 games today and lose 2 games tomorrow is fun for everyone but in a tournament means you have no chance of winning.

Shimmergloom
17-06-2008, 04:37
Why do you feel obliged to claim that people said something that they didn't. No one made this statement except you, I agree its utter nonsense, so why are you having nonsense discussions with yourself on an internet forum?


lol. I guess I imagined these statements.


They are orcs... if you want something serious play another army. Animosity is as much as part of them as green skin and oral based currency.

Tourny's mean didly... they are where people play to win with the hardest army they can construct.



I cant help but feel your missing the point of the orcs- randam mayhem. They are without a doubt the funnest army to play against. If they cant cut the mustard at a tourney (though i've seen much in this thread to the contrary), then perhaps they are better suited to friendly games, where they excell at adding entertainment. I love to fight orcs.

Winning isnt everything, its the playing of the game.

Kerill
17-06-2008, 04:51
Don't see this:

"Evidently, if you don't play O&G, then you are a power gamer who only cares about winning and not having fun."

Do you?

And even the not caring about winning all references I can see are to tournaments, and I gave an example earlier of them doing very well at tournaments.

Ah well, tell you what, you must be right, I'm leaving this thread to die a sad death.

sephiroth87
17-06-2008, 05:59
Hmmm....

I left for a day and what did I see when I got back...

The orc hater brigade comes on en masse (all three or four of you) and write profuse amounts of hate about the book.

A few people think the army book is a little weak, but still playable. Little do they know that they're going to get pounced on by people who might possibly need a hug (or therapy).

The orc hater brigade trots out the old chestnuts (amid frothing at the mouth fueled by no sleep and too much yoo hoo):

1. study done by random guy of tournaments

2. waaagh giving a one in six chance of killing some stuff

3. the always present random enemy unit that's sitting just by your entire army, just waiting for you to roll a 6 for the squabble test and wheel D6 inches, sending your entire army into disarray and collapsing whatever plan you had because you wouldn't apparently have the foresight to just whack the thing with a doom diver.

4. Boar Boyz. As a funny aside, one of my friends used to spend 200 points on a brick. Literally, a brick. He would handicap himself 200 points and tell everyone that his unit was the brick. "What does it do?" they would ask. He would tell them "nothing," and play them. If you really want to see what "useless" is, play the brick for a few games. The boar boyz won't look so bad by comparison. They're an overcosted unit that still hits pretty hard if you can get them into a flank. And if you bought regular boar boyz and want to make them savage orcs, paint warpaint on. When an opponent asks, show them war paint. No one will ever care.

5. Yes, I know that you ALWAYS roll ones and you've actually never had to move your army because you've never rolled any higher than a one for any squabble test EVER (Heretic Burner actually rolled a negative four on a squabble roll a few years ago), but I hear there's a (whispers) player in New Zealand who passed a squabble test one time and managed to charge something. Unfortunately, though, he was playing orcs and goblins. God saw that the orcs were actually going to charge something, then caused a giant earthquake that destroyed the store, caught the kid's hair on fire, and shook the game store until the dice tipped off the table and landed on a one.

The regular orc haters should form a support group or something...

kroq'gar
17-06-2008, 12:20
No, no it does not.

It adds D6" to your charge move.

There is a very big difference.

Yeah... my opponent once combined this with calling the waaagh (an ability everyoneone slagging orcs never seems to mention when they say how bad animosity is) to mix waaaghing over a hill with charging for a total 17 inches with a unit of blackorcs...into my innocent knights. BTW the charge potential for that combo is 20 inches.



There is certainly no evidence whatsoever that LM are a particularly weak army. There is however tremendous statistical evidence indicating O&G are the very weakest army in the game..

what an utter abhomination... the commical race is the weakest.... Quell annimosity, 5 st 6 ws 8 attacks, with a 1+ armour and 5+ ward seems a pretty respecatble lord to me.

How about a ws 6, t5 lord with 5 attacks, that 6+ward sure makes him better with a rune fang than my ws 5, 3 attack empire general.



I certainly hope that isn't the point of the orcs. I should hope the point of the orcs is the same as the point of every other army in the game - to be an enjoyable army to collect within the context of the hobby from gaming, painting, modelling, etc...

And what of the narrative world that IS warhammer? would you like regiments of diciplined orcs to march forth against the diciplined skaven, or how about the diciplined undead fighting the diciplined dwarves. How about some dwarf and skaven cavalry? Be thankful you got anything at all.


Nonsense. There is nothing that makes O&G particularly more fun to play against than any other army. There are certainly many things that make it less fun such as the lengthy setup, long cumpulsory phase, and dreadful balance. There is simply nothing to indicate that O&G are more fun than any other army in the game.

Try playing against them. Fleeing goblins are sweet, whilst giants stuffing elf lords down their pants is hillerious.


I'm sure many tournament players love to fight orcs too picking up very easy to collect battle points. If they can't cut the mustard in a tourney they should simply be altered so that they can indeed compete. Everyone benefits, perhaps most of all GW. As there is absolutely no difference in rules between "friendly" games and "tourney" games O&G are no more suited for "friendly" games either.

Not the rules, the mentality behind the game. My friend decided rolling double 6 for my generals ld10 terror test and clipping the corner of his regiment was stupid, so allowed the unit to stay in the interest of a full, fun and complete game. Say the same of any tourney.


Yes and the current game is absolutely dreadfully poor. It would certainly be a lot closer to the ideal if O&G were a competitive army and balanced within the rules of the game. As it stands they simply aren't and ghastly boar boyz are a major reason for this.

My skaven have no cavalry. infact, the army i run has no jezzails, no moulder, no eshin, no warplightning cannons, no clan pestilence.

They have the ability to outnumber the opponent 4 to one, and believe me, a unit of cavalry could exploit that to the absolute bug&ery.

If you want to blame losing on boarboyz, then you picked the wrong army. Try brettonians.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-06-2008, 12:35
I play Savage Orcs. I cannot control my army the way you normally do.

They might get led off over the hills and far away. They might decide the enemy are so far, and their mate is so neat, cut out the middle man and just have a quick punch up to pass the time it takes the enemy to get closer.

I've even gone so far as to mount my Lord on a Wyvern, just for giggles.

Do I expect to win every game? Absolutely not. Do I expect to enjoy every game? You better believe it.

The SkaerKrow
17-06-2008, 13:06
For a little over 100 points you can get a Cavalry unit that puts out five Strength 5 attacks and five Strength 4 attacks on the charge, has Toughness 4 and a 3+ Save...

Why are we unhappy about this? Boar Boyz aren't Knights. Don't expect them to do what Knights do.

Shimmergloom
17-06-2008, 17:05
Yeah... my opponent once combined this with calling the waaagh (an ability everyoneone slagging orcs never seems to mention when they say how bad animosity is) to mix waaaghing over a hill with charging for a total 17 inches with a unit of blackorcs...into my innocent knights. BTW the charge potential for that combo is 20 inches.

And black orcs pay through the nose for the ability to get an extra 3 inches on average and the banner is a magic item that's not guaranteed to work. That's enough said about that.

You know things that always work? ASF, Hatred, ItP armies, unbreakable armies, Fear causing armies.





what an utter abhomination... the commical race is the weakest.... Quell annimosity, 5 st 6 ws 8 attacks, with a 1+ armour and 5+ ward seems a pretty respecatble lord to me.

How about a ws 6, t5 lord with 5 attacks, that 6+ward sure makes him better with a rune fang than my ws 5, 3 attack empire general.

Yeah I wish my black orc had those stats too, but he doesn't.

Quell animosity means he'll kill members of his own unit. He has 4 S5 attacks, not 5 S6 attacks. He's not WS8, he's WS7. He can't get a 1+ armor save and can only get up to 2+ if he pays 24pts for a boar. And he's 145pts. You empire general is 80pts. They are not comparable in the slightest.

Stop making things up.





And what of the narrative world that IS warhammer? would you like regiments of diciplined orcs to march forth against the diciplined skaven, or how about the diciplined undead fighting the diciplined dwarves. How about some dwarf and skaven cavalry? Be thankful you got anything at all.

Skaven are disiplined. They move where you want them to move when you want them to move. Orcs and goblins will not do what you want them to do 33% of the time.





Not the rules, the mentality behind the game. My friend decided rolling double 6 for my generals ld10 terror test and clipping the corner of his regiment was stupid, so allowed the unit to stay in the interest of a full, fun and complete game. Say the same of any tourney.


What your friend allows is not applicable to the rules, nor relevant to the discussion of whether boar boyz are overpriced. Some guy out there probably lets boar boyz cost 10pts, that doesn't mean they are balanced for everyone else.



My skaven have no cavalry. infact, the army i run has no jezzails, no moulder, no eshin, no warplightning cannons, no clan pestilence.

Again not relevant to the relative power of the skaven list. Or anyone else's.


For a little over 100 points you can get a Cavalry unit that puts out five Strength 5 attacks and five Strength 4 attacks on the charge, has Toughness 4 and a 3+ Save...

They are also WS3 and can't be controlled 33% of the time. And with just 5 models will panic on their ld7 very easily.

People are complaining because black knights are only 2pts more and have killing blow, magical attacks, unbreakable, cause fear and lances, with S4 instead of S3 and higher inititiative, higher movement and No animosity.

People are complaining because for 1pt more an empire knight has a 1+ armor save, higher WS, I and LD and no animosity and are core. And their inner circle are only 3pts for +1S, while big'uns are +8pts for +1S and +1WS. So WS which every elf player on this forum claims is a worthless stat, is worth 5pts per model? The T4 of an orc does not equate for the bonuses that empire knights are getting.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-06-2008, 18:49
So, if the army is so woefully underpowered, and your need to win so all consuming, why not sell up and buy a different force?

Heretic Burner
17-06-2008, 22:48
Yeah... my opponent once combined this with calling the waaagh (an ability everyoneone slagging orcs never seems to mention when they say how bad animosity is) to mix waaaghing over a hill with charging for a total 17 inches with a unit of blackorcs...into my innocent knights. BTW the charge potential for that combo is 20 inches.

No sympathy here. With quite possibly one of the most ideal armies in the entire game of disrupting O&G movement there is absolutely no reason at all for this to occur. After all, as the opponent you get to determine if this move is at all possible by placement of your units - the O&G player has absolutely not control over it whatsoever. Your mistake, and a very poor one at that.



what an utter abhomination... the commical race is the weakest.... Quell annimosity, 5 st 6 ws 8 attacks, with a 1+ armour and 5+ ward seems a pretty respecatble lord to me.

All WH armies have their lighter side, I surely hope you aren't suggesting that because O&G happen to have fluff that depicts that side that they should somehow be weaker than every other army in the game. As for that character, I really don't know the point of listing it. It certainly isn't particularly impressive, nor does it actually help make the O&G list anywhere near being balanced. Quite frankly I don't know the reason of this paragraph.



How about a ws 6, t5 lord with 5 attacks, that 6+ward sure makes him better with a rune fang than my ws 5, 3 attack empire general.

In a typical 2K game I would take an Empire lord with 1s across the board in an Empire army over an O&G lord with 10's across the board in an O&G army and fully expect to win the vast majority of time. Empire absolutely wrecks the greenskins because of the tools it can deploy to take advantage of animosity - it isn't even close. And yes "your" Empire general is every bit as effective as "my" Empire general - I have an even larger collection of Empire than O&G.



And what of the narrative world that IS warhammer? would you like regiments of diciplined orcs to march forth against the diciplined skaven, or how about the diciplined undead fighting the diciplined dwarves. How about some dwarf and skaven cavalry? Be thankful you got anything at all.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Skaven can bring a monstrous 10 leadership making them one of the most disciplined armies in the game. Undead are rock steady because of their undead rule. Dwarves as well. As for dwarf and skaven cavalry - both possible through DOW. Quite frankly I simply don't understand your point. I would certainly be a lot more thankful not being burdened with the dreadful 7th edition book. The 6th edition book was far better balanced, more competitive, better written, and didn't contain a massive chunk devoted to nothing but advertising.



Try playing against them. Fleeing goblins are sweet, whilst giants stuffing elf lords down their pants is hillerious.

Giants are a DOW unit - thus just as fun in any other army that can take them (and considerably less fun that the more options available to Chaos). I simply don't see what makes fleeing goblins particularly more fun than fleeing swordsmen or fleeing saurus or, well, fleeing anything. Perhaps you could explain.



Not the rules, the mentality behind the game. My friend decided rolling double 6 for my generals ld10 terror test and clipping the corner of his regiment was stupid, so allowed the unit to stay in the interest of a full, fun and complete game. Say the same of any tourney.

I'm not sure what your opint is. Your idea of fun is to discard the rulebook and make up your own rules? Is that what it takes to make O&G competitive? Otherwise this simply has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the competitive nature of O&G within the WH rules and I am quite frankly baffled why you would even make this statement.



My skaven have no cavalry. infact, the army i run has no jezzails, no moulder, no eshin, no warplightning cannons, no clan pestilence.

:confused:



They have the ability to outnumber the opponent 4 to one, and believe me, a unit of cavalry could exploit that to the absolute bug&ery.

Again I don't see the point of this. It would be nice to have a VC magic phase too, have a first striking army, and give your units the blessing. It makes no sense.



If you want to blame losing on boarboyz, then you picked the wrong army. Try brettonians.

Yes I can take a vastly more powerful army and have an easier go of things. In fact I could trounce O&G with relative ease with my Empire army (almost guaranteed if I bring along a unit of huntsmen). That certainly doesn't make my O&G army any better balanced, more enjoyable, or a better fit within GW's own vision of a balanced game.

Shamfrit
17-06-2008, 23:59
You know things that always work? ASF, Hatred, ItP armies, unbreakable armies, Fear causing armies.

So does jumping off a very large cliff, try it sometime? :p


Yeah I wish my black orc had those stats too, but he doesn't.

Quell animosity means he'll kill members of his own unit. He has 4 S5 attacks, not 5 S6 attacks. He's not WS8, he's WS7. He can't get a 1+ armor save and can only get up to 2+ if he pays 24pts for a boar. And he's 145pts. You empire general is 80pts. They are not comparable in the slightest.

No, he will NOT Kill Members of his own unit. If you're rolling that many ones, go and get a Statistics Degree and come back with a reasonable argument for assaulting somebody elses freedom of choice because your opinion is 'Shimmergloom' about the whole afair.


Stop making things up.

Oh the irony.


Skaven are disiplined. They move where you want them to move when you want them to move.

This is OFFICIALLY the Lollest thing I've read on Warseer since I joined, congratulations.


Again not relevant to the relative power of the skaven list. Or anyone else's.

Ah, so yuo play Skaven too? Try playing them without the Standardised SAD list and get back to me with that, cheers.


The T4 of an orc does not equate for the bonuses that empire knights are getting.

No, not at all, it just makes all rank and file non-elite troops (whom you should be flanking anyway) wound on a 5+, giving you your 3+ save as normal with no trouble. Makes them relatively kicky within the context of the Army list and makes them an assured Flank charge, as apposed to a Frenzied one.


Your entire Argument Shimmergloom, Urgat, and the others like you, is based on 'I ROLLED A ONE, MY GAME IS OVER!'

Perhaps you need to rethink that ideal :rolleyes:

Shimmergloom
18-06-2008, 00:29
What in the hell are you talking about?

He was completely wrong 100% about the stats of a black orc.

He had ws8. They are ws7. He had 5 attacks. They have 4. He had S6, they are S5. He had 1+ armor saves, they can't get them unless they take a boar and enchanted shield, but again, that's not a standard stat. He said Quell animosity is great. He was wrong. Killing your own troops is not great.

And you need the statistical degree. You only have to roll a 1, once to kill your own troops. And statistically that will happen once a game. With D6 S5 hits, you will again Statistically roll 3.5 out of 6 or a 3 or 4 rounding up or down.


No, he will NOT Kill Members of his own unit.

3 S5 hits on T4 troops will kill 2 orcs, big'uns or savages. That = killing your own troops!

And you don't even DARE put him in a unit of boar boyz of any type.

You have the nerve to say I'm being unreasonable when he's just making up stats out of nowhere and you are just pretending that D6 S5 hits doesn't kill his own troops?

Shamfrit
18-06-2008, 00:44
I 'only have to roll a double one' on a casting of a spell to Miscast, what exactly do you want me to do about it?

Nothing.

In the same why that you can't do anything about the untimely event of rolling a 1 during a Waaagh!!, it happened to me earlier and I lost three Wolf Riders - it didn't cost me the game in any way shape or form, losing my general to my opponent's Vampire Lord, that lost me the game - Animosity has never been responsible for my losing, there are other lacking arounds that I can flag for that.

There is a very real difference between lack of knowledge and flat-lining an argument with persistant and negative comments, you've made it very clear in other threads that you think Orcs and Goblins 'suck,' and that things are over costed and bad - we know. There is no need to continue this, you've shown no willing to give up ground, regardless of the amount of evidence or mathhammer or nerd gaming psychology set down before you.

As for Quell Animosity - I only take two Black Orc Warbosses. One is on a Boar accompanying my Troll Hammer unit (my general, believe it or not, surrounded either side by flankers and goblins) and the other is my BSB who is also on a boar in a large unit of Goblins or my Block of Boars - the best way to get around Quell Animosity is to completely and utterly pretend that it doesn't exist. Don't rely on it, don't count it, don't abide by it -

On a final note, a Black Orc Warboss is Strength 6 when using Choppas, so - he wasn't 100% incorrect, merely lacking the bigger picture. And when using 2 Choppas, they have 5 attacks...so, if you can't assume Armed To Da Teef let's not go accusing knowledge or lack of.

Prince Facestab
18-06-2008, 01:15
It looks like you can get those stats for a blorc if you give him Martog's best basha and the kicking boots, in addition to the boar and enchanted shield. It probably would have been better mention that he was talking about a funky equipment loadout instead of the base stats, but this does appear to be what he was talking about.

Shimmergloom
18-06-2008, 01:34
On a final note, a Black Orc Warboss is Strength 6 when using Choppas, so - he wasn't 100% incorrect, merely lacking the bigger picture. And when using 2 Choppas, they have 5 attacks...so, if you can't assume Armed To DA Teef let's not go accusing knowledge or lack of.

No he is still incorrect because he said he had WS8, which you cannot have with 2 choppas. The S6 lasts one round. And you also cannot have a 1+ armor save if you are using 2 choppas. You cannot use 2 choppas while mounted. So he continues to be incorrect.

And if he's just using a black orc tooled up with magic items, then he should not have been comparing it to an 80pt empire general with no items.

That general can take a 30pt item and take away my base stats.

And if it's ok for you guys to go on and on about how great the new books are and how balanced all this crap is, then I will continue to say they are not.

So how about you stop telling me and everyone else stop claiming that boar boyz are great and all these new books with heaps of special rules are balanced?

Cause guess what. I GET IT. You think GW can do no wrong.

Prince Facestab
18-06-2008, 01:49
And if he's just using a black orc tooled up with magic items, then he should not have been comparing it to an 80pt empire general with no items.

He wasn't. He said that the blorc was respectable. His comparison was between a savage orc warboss with... uh, the orc version of runefang to an empire general with runefang.

Empire general with runefang isn't exactly an optimal choice, though. Still, this is what he was talking about, and it didn't take me too much reading to figure that out.

In any case, apparently people on one side of the argument understands that the other doesn't think O&G are good (but with stronger language), and the people on the other side of the argument understand that their opposition things that O&G are fine (once again, with stronger language). Are we going to go ahead and have another 10 pages of trying to get in the last word anyway?

pcgamer72
18-06-2008, 03:13
Can we make bets on who is the last poster standing?

Voodoo Boyz
18-06-2008, 03:22
Skaven are disiplined. They move where you want them to move when you want them to move.
This is OFFICIALLY the Lollest thing I've read on Warseer since I joined, congratulations.

Actually, he's quite right. Skaven's cheap disposable troops (as well as their normal ones) do in fact move where you want them to move when you want them to move. They suffer no random chance to not work the way you want them to that turn (assuming they're not fleeing because of normal psych tests, etc). There is no "uh oh, rolled a 1 or a 6 this turn, my unit can't do what I was planning now!".

And their cheap disposable troops can regularly and easily get LD10, unlike say Goblins.



Ah, so yuo play Skaven too? Try playing them without the Standardised SAD list and get back to me with that, cheers.


Well see there's the problem.

I like Skaven, I want to be competitive.

Boom, I can construct a pretty damn reliable skaven army, lots of shooting (good shooting no less), solid, reliable, dependable damage dealing magic, tons of troops, etc.

Now if I wanted to have a Zany Crazy Skaven army that randomly did things that were sometimes bad for my army, I could build that list. But as you said the "Standardized list" is "standard" for a reason, many people play it because it works and is reliable.

Orcs & Goblins do not have the luxury of building a list that can perform nearly as reliably as Skaven can.

That's why they're "underpowered" in many peoples eyes.

kroq'gar
18-06-2008, 04:05
Orcs & Goblins do not have the luxury of building a list that can perform nearly as reliably as Skaven can.

That's why they're "underpowered" in many peoples eyes.

Because they cant construct the SAD army?!? (probably one of the most hated build by any player whos faced it?).

I was talking about a tooled out BO stats. And van host spectrum will only work on absolutely niave players. Empire general challanges. Accept with champion. Trump generals unit with 5 st 6 ws 8 attacks. Or any other of the highly respectable lord builds available. You have powerful leaders, and cheap mediocre soldiers. By that they are better than most hoarde armies, with st & t 4 in the first round of combat.

Many orc players are fine and have learnt to deal with it. If because you cant construct a 'powergamer' list, and your animosity can be used against you & you feel your army is obviously terrible, then perhaps you picked the wrong list. Dont go blaming GW for making the list you picked terrible (an ill behaved rabble acting like an ill behaved rabble, what a terrible army).

O & G have always been random and unpredictable. If you want your 'diciplined' skaven blocks, then play them (dont come running to me when banner of the lady negates their rank bonus and the generals ld drops to its base of 7, or a flank charge from fast cav sends your clanrats running with a ld of 5. Or your slaves with a ld 2. But wait... oh my, thats right, they are diciplined, ws & t 4, ld 8 dwarves.)

And yes, my idea of a fun battle can involve changing rules slightly, or restarting a battle if turn 1 the entire opponents army panics off the board. Dragon armour isnt a problem when i play, because we applied independant thought to the situation. Sometimes, its fun to throw something in there (like a trebuchet having a bs 1 st 1 stand and shoot reaction from the kid in the wheelbarrow, was hilerious when he killed a tunneler).

GW come up with rules YOU interpret them, after all, your the one playing.

vesp
18-06-2008, 08:02
O&G suffer far more from random dice rolls than most other armies. Even if it's just for animosity (but also for any leadership tests).

That's what he meant.

Voodoo Boyz
18-06-2008, 09:42
Because they cant construct the SAD army?!? (probably one of the most hated build by any player whos faced it?).


No, not because of the SAD build, but because you can still make a very reliable, potent, army - with very little chance of random destruction.

Warlord, 3 Engineers, 2 units of Jezzails, 1-2 WLC's, maybe a Giant, 2 Tunnelling teams, and then 4-5 sets of Clanrats + Slaves.

That's not SAD, it's got plenty of shooting, but not SAD. In fact it has 8-10 big blocks of infantry to fight you with (though granted only the shooting effectively causes wounds, the rest of it wins through static CR).

That's my point. Skaven can be built reliably, Orcs can't.

Shamfrit
18-06-2008, 11:22
I do very much believe Games Workshop can do wrong. Casually glance over to the Lizardmen 7th Edition Release date and see how it's placed rather nicely before Skaven, and how the Skaven list is struggling (all by no means the worst of course) where the lizardman army list is comparatively (how I dispise that word) is doing relatively well still.

Skaven might move where you want them too, yes, this is fine. But, having said that, they never ******* stay there - it's virtually impossible to win a one on one fight against Undead with anything other than Plague Monks, Censer Bearers or the like against anything that causes fear because of auto-breaking, just because of that extra one skeleton. Trying to get the flank charge in across the board is difficult, because as someone's already stated, the Warlord's range is 12", the gaming board is considerably larger than that - fear tests cripple the checkerboard plan as much as any other. Not to mention, that if the Warlord dies the Leadership of a Skaven army tumbles. If a Black Orc Warboss dies, the leadership of an Orc & Goblin army is actually almost the same.

I am more doom and gloom about the Skaven list at the moment to the point where I've stopped playing them for a while to get my wits about me - but this ideal that the Greenskin Army Book got a raw deal is alien to me. The last three games against Vampire Counts, despite the odd fear test failing leaving my Snotlings to valiantly charge on their own (hilariously good fun I might add) or my General finally being forced half movement forwards because I rolled a Double 6 for the troll's stupidity test and I mean, it had to happen at one point, and the next turn they Waaagh!!'d forwards straight to their deaths still resulted in two hefty massacres, and one massacre for the Vampire Counts player. Dealing with the downsides is part of being a Greenskin Boss, you kick 'em 'ard, you kick 'em fast, and if they don't do what you tell them to do? Kick bloody 'arda!

Change your plans, have back ups, mould your idea as you go along, have multiple units because this is a horde army after all, no matter how many war machines and Black Orc Elite Units you have, by all means, complain about the Boar Boys - since so few people use them, what's the issue here anyway? Oh, noes! Games Workshop wasted a sheet of paper on something that's completely and utterly nerfed our entire army book and it's now unplayable!

I'm with Mad Doc, sometimes I DO despise this place, damnit for being so addictive!

Shimmergloom
18-06-2008, 12:44
O & G have always been random and unpredictable. If you want your 'diciplined' skaven blocks, then play them (dont come running to me when banner of the lady negates their rank bonus and the generals Ld drops to its base of 7, or a flank charge from fast cav sends your clanrats running with a Ld of 5. Or your slaves with a ld 2. But wait... oh my, thats right, they are diciplined, WS & t 4, ld 8 dwarves.)

These things hurt EVERYONE. All your non-stubborn/super elite infantry. Not even clan dwarf infantry with ld9 can stand charges by bret knights that negate ranks.

I'm going to flee my goblins if at all possible from fast cav flanking charges just as quickly as you'll flee your clanrats. Ld6/5, LD2, neither can hold up when they have lost their ranks and been flanked.

Which brings us back to the whole point of this thread. Orc boar boyz is overcosted and pales in comparison to any other cav. And you just proved it for us, by pointing out how other cav have superpowered rules, with 0 or nearly 0 negatives attached and low points costs that can make mincemeat of your army.

Gobbo Lord
18-06-2008, 12:47
Ok everyone, i started this thread with cavalry comparisons in mind and though i used Boar Boyz as the example i think it has slipped slightly off topic.

I am in agreement the Orc book was bad, especially compared to more recent efforts. But i still play them, and still win, and still lose. I just dont use Boar Boyz (Or Goblins) as they really are bettered by similar troops in the list.

The comparisons between Boar Boyz, Black Knights, Saurus Cavalry, Cold One Riders, Empire Knights etc is all very good and what the intention of the topic was. To highlight points inconsistencies between these troops. Which are glaringly obvious considering the small point differences with massive ability and stat line diffrences.

Rikkjourd
18-06-2008, 20:33
This thread makes my head hurt...

but Im still going to support those who say that the O&G book is a little bit on the weak side, and boar boyz are total utter crap compared to most other things in the list, especially when concentrating on the special choices, AND in other lists.

sephiroth87
18-06-2008, 22:05
The idea that an orc and goblin army can't be reliable is simply absurd. I get on here every time someone says it and show them, the haters start pitching a fit about how I'm end running around animosity or not being fluffy, which has nothing to do with making a reliable army.

A 2250 point orc list that's fairly reliable:

Orc hero in chariot

Goblin shaman in chariot with dispel scroll

Black orc warboss with a 1+ armor save (boar, enchanted shield, heavy armor, 5+ ward save), and rerollable akkrit axe or martog's basha

Black orc BSB with Mork's totem, heavy armor, and boar

2 orc units of 25 orcs each with choppa, shield, banner, musician. Both black orc characters go in these two units.

unit of 20 goblins with 1-2 fanatics, protecting a flank and using general's leadership 9.

2 units of 5 wolves with spears, musician

unit of 5 spiders with musician

unit of 15 black orcs with Waaagh banner, musician

Unit of 8-10 savage orcs with standard, musician, war banner or banner of butchery. Run them 6 wide.

Boar Chariot

2 spear chukkas

Giant or single Troll depending on how many points you have left

Doom Diver

With this setup, you make 7 animosity tests, with 5 of them being able to stop. The goblins are usually only throwing out fanatics, so a squabble really doesn't hurt that much. The wolves and spiders hurt when they squabble, but that's why you run 3 of them and keep them 6'' apart, so that if they flee or get destroyed, no one panics. The 2 orc units and the boars never stop to squabble, and during a waaagh!, the warboss's unit doesn't roll and neither do the black orcs. The BSB's unit goes on a 2+, which is fairly dependable. The only real issue is with the savage orcs when calling the waaagh, which is why you run a lot of them. Most orc players don't front the money for more boar boyz, which is the wrong thing to do. Rolling a 1 on 5 big'uns during the waaagh is a lot more detrimental than if you took 10 regular ones. And the little ones already hit hard enough to break infantry units from the front.

Chariots, doom diver, spear chukkas, black orcs, regular orcs, and giant won't stop to squabble. That's pretty good, I'd say.

I'll go ahead and say what these people don't: The orcs are not the best army.

They are playable if you play well and build a list that's light on squabbling and heavy on the aggressive units that get a good charge (black orcs with waaagh banner, chariots, giants, single trolls, savage boars), and furthermore if you can learn to adopt a simple strategy. Put your squabbling infantry in the middle, about 3'' apart from each other, with moderately fast units with leadership issues between them that can move around your crazy battle line if the orcs move funny (chariots, trolls). Put your fast stuff with no leadership issues (giant, boars, bigboss in boar chariot) farther out on a flank. Use the slow, solid leadership (because your general and BSB are in the middle) infantry/chariots to pressure your opponent, use goblin cavalry to bait, flee, and march block, and use your immune to psych/high leadership fast units to either hang back for a good moment to charge or go up a flank and bust through a weak spot.

Orcs will demolish opponents who think they suck, and they can hang with good lists as long as the opponent doesn't load up on cannons. They do not have a power build, which is only a shame for people with no imagination. But they are not the unplayable mess that overly negative people think them to be.

Any opponent that wants to come to Tennessee and play my orc list is welcome to come and completely destroy it. So far, that's the only proof I'm taking, because I keep winning with them.

Shimmergloom
18-06-2008, 22:29
I notice you have 0 goblins or boar boyz or big'uns in the army. And your shaman is in a chariot, not a unit of greenskins.

I guess you got the memo that these are the main complaints, that those are all overpriced. Which is also the point of this thread. Boar boyz are overpriced. You have 0 boar boyz. And orc magic is horrible because of animosity. Thanks for backing us up, with a list that has no boar boyz.

Be sure to cut/paste this list into complaints about goblins and big'uns and greenskin magic.

sephiroth87
18-06-2008, 22:37
I never said I use them. People complain about how the list is totally terrible and the orc and goblin list is a failure. I give them a list that works. They complain about how I didn't use the bad parts.

Show me an empire tournament list and tell me how many Helstorm rocket batteries it has...


Orcs & Goblins do not have the luxury of building a list that can perform nearly as reliably as Skaven can.

That's why they're "underpowered" in many peoples eyes.

Heretic Burner
18-06-2008, 23:01
I cannot fathom how we're supposed to believe that army listed is somehow "reliable". Like any O&G other army it suffers from low leadership, disrupted lines because of multiple animosity tests, and random movement. This particular army has the added bonus of troops with frenzy, random giant attacks, a dismal number of heroes providing leadership to infantry units, and (perhaps most mind boggling of all) the thought that a minimum sized night goblin unit will reliably hold a flank!

I'll go ahead and say you won't: The orcs are statistically the very worst army in the game.

Your list certainly doesn't address any of the problems with the book.

Your list is not reliable, it remains more unreliable than any other army in the game.

Your list is certainly is not one that will demolish anyone that thinks they suck.

I'm afraid you haven't addressed any of the problems brought up in this thread by posting this list. Most importantly this list does aboslutely nothing, nil, nadda to give boar boyz correctly.

Quite frankly I don't see why you'd even suggest this list as being some sort of solution to, well, anything really. It simply isn't.

kroq'gar
19-06-2008, 02:27
I notice you have 0 goblins or boar boyz or big'uns in the army. And your shaman is in a chariot, not a unit of greenskins.

I guess you got the memo that these are the main complaints, that those are all overpriced. Which is also the point of this thread. Boar boyz are overpriced. You have 0 boar boyz. And orc magic is horrible because of animosity. Thanks for backing us up, with a list that has no boar boyz.

Be sure to cut/paste this list into complaints about goblins and big'uns and greenskin magic.

You missed the boat. you just got given one of many orc builds that arnt subject to widespread disorder.


And yes, this threads gone a little off topic.

Orc boarboyz may be expensive, but combined with the cheap and excellent wolf riders, they go to work.

If a base boarboys not to good, try a base empire knight with a gw. 1 st 4 that goes last. one st 3 attack. 2+ save. t3. With a lance he hits as hard ad your MOUNT.

Upgrade them to bigunz or to make them savage. End of issue.

sephiroth87
19-06-2008, 02:31
I cannot fathom how we're supposed to believe that army listed is somehow "reliable". Like any O&G other army it suffers from low leadership, disrupted lines because of multiple animosity tests, and random movement. This particular army has the added bonus of troops with frenzy, random giant attacks, a dismal number of heroes providing leadership to infantry units, and (perhaps most mind boggling of all) the thought that a minimum sized night goblin unit will reliably hold a flank!

I'll go ahead and say you won't: The orcs are statistically the very worst army in the game.

Your list certainly doesn't address any of the problems with the book.

Your list is not reliable, it remains more unreliable than any other army in the game.

Your list is certainly is not one that will demolish anyone that thinks they suck.

I'm afraid you haven't addressed any of the problems brought up in this thread by posting this list. Most importantly this list does aboslutely nothing, nil, nadda to give boar boyz correctly.

Quite frankly I don't see why you'd even suggest this list as being some sort of solution to, well, anything really. It simply isn't.

Come play me, then. I always invite you anytime. Usually you ignore me at this point or start to snipe at someone else. I'd even be willing to drive a bit and even buy the beer afterward.

So far you always talk about things like you know, but I have yet to see you do anything other than snipe at people, throw out fallacious either/or arguments, talk a lot of theoryhammer about what you're dead-set sure that doesn't work, and not play. What's the last big tournament you went to? What's the last tournament list you took? How well did you do? I trust your opinion about army lists about as much as I'd trust Michael Jackson with my kids.

As for my list, I play it every week. It's the same list that I'm taking to the Hillbilly Invitational, the big indie tournament in the southeast U.S. As I said, come play sometime, any list, you can take whatever godawfully heinous netlist you can find. I'll let you sleep on my couch.

Deal?

Shimmergloom
19-06-2008, 03:05
Upgrade them to bigunz or to make them savage. End of issue.

yes, just go out and buy more models because your current models suck. Go give GW hundreds of more dollars.

Do the same for your daemon princes, silver helms, all your chaos armies that now have useless units that you can't use, zombies, etc. etc.

pcgamer72
19-06-2008, 03:16
For whatever it matters, the Necronomicon was this past weekend and there were 2 OnG players in the top 10 (one finished 2nd Overall). I thought I'd just throw that into the fire for y'all! :)

@Sephiroth- Are you going to be at the Hillbilly on Friday, because I would love to play a game against your list for fun, if you want. I'll be bringing Wood Elves.

Kerill
19-06-2008, 04:30
yes, just go out and buy more models because your current models suck. Go give GW hundreds of more dollars.

Do the same for your daemon princes, silver helms, all your chaos armies that now have useless units that you can't use, zombies, etc. etc.

How would you need to spend money on upgrading boar boyz to big uns or using them as savage boys? Paint a couple of tattoos on them if your opponent is really anal. But let's be honest shimmergloom whatever anyone suggests you will disagree with. Sephiroth put up a list which mitigates the effect of animosity, but you will still complain. On the daemon thread you said that O&G have no chance against daemons and I gave you an army that would do very well against any daemon army and almost any other army in the game and I'm not even an O&G player.

Anyway, as regards the thread, another option for armies that have "sub-standard cavalry" is to use DOW cavalry rules to represent your models. DOW heavy cavalry without barding (to keep the save at just 3+, although you could boost it with barding to get a 7" charge range instead) could be used to represent boar boyz quite well (yes shimmergloom, I know you won't like this idea, its just for anyone else on the thread), similar strength on the charge but cheaper and more reliable.

kroq'gar
19-06-2008, 07:31
Are there different models for big unz :P

Shimmergloom
19-06-2008, 13:38
1. using savages does not solve the problems with regular boar boyz at all.

2. using DoW heavy cav does not solve the problems with regular boar boyz at all. It just exemplifies it, since you are using DoW units instead of your own units.

3. using orc boar models as savage orcs does not solve the problem, nor would most people want to use heavily armored orc models to represent savage orcs. Nor would they want to paint tatoos on their models that they had already painted up to be orcs.

4. His army list does not solve the animosity issue at all. His black orc characters are still going to kill his own troops and there's nothing he can do to stop it. All his animosity laden units will be uncontrollable 33% of the time. His savages still cannot be controlled and should be a huge target for every bowman and magic user in the game. His army is barely bigger than an elf army and about the size of many dwarf armies out there. Greenskins nearly outnumbered by dwarfs? Preposterous.

5. Big'uns of all types are still overpriced. Stick your head in the sand all you want and continue to chant 'GW is always right' over and over. It won't change the facts.

6. these suggestions just go to show you that even you understand that boar boyz and the greenskin list has major problems. You just think the problem should be ignored and we should continue to feed the machine, with no complaints, while new book after new book comes out with vastly reduced troop costs, overloaded with beneficial special rules.

Kerill
19-06-2008, 13:46
Shimmergloom, everyone has agreed FROM THE START that boar boyz were overcosted by a couple of points. They still aren't useless though (as compared to the brick), savage boyz are fine, use them or use DOW cavalry rules and counts as to use your models. Every army has units that suck, for boarboyz its not the end of the world since you have two other units that can do the same job.

It seems you are trying to mix two issues together:
1) Are boarboyz overcosted (yes, but its not that big a deal since other units can perform the same function and boar boyz aren't that integral to O&G anyway.
2) Are O&G the worst army that GW has ever released, so bad that they can never win a game against any opponent. Why the lord of creation must be hanging his head in shame at what happened in that army book, lets go to Nottingham and lynch some evil GW staff, the evil machine that deliberately destroyed my army and made it unplayable, oh my god I just can;t take it anymore!!!!....MENTAL BREAKDOWN...

Shimmergloom
19-06-2008, 14:51
It's ok Daemon princes aren't that intergral to the DoC/Mortal/beast army anyway.

It's ok All your chaos units(like furies, chaos knights, chariots, mounted marauders, etc) from the 3 chaos types were not integral anyway to any of the armies. Just put them in a box and forget about them.

It's ok your silver helms are not integral to the HE army anyway, just use dragon princes and store your helms on a shelf somewhere.

It's ok your white wolf knights that you collected, painted and themed in an ulric army are not that integral to an empire army anyway, just use regular knights instead. Break off the arms from your knights if you have to. Or go buy another box to put them in and spend more money on regular knights.

It's ok, your questing knights are not that important. Just use KoTR.

It's ok, your dwarf rangers were not that integral to your army anyway. Just go buy more miners instead.

It's ok, your chaos dwarfs are not integral to warhammer and the warhammer world anyway, just use them as dwarfs and the hobgoblins as goblins.

Ooops, turns out those hobgoblins as goblins really aren't integral to a orc and goblin army anyway, just throw them in a box somewhere and forget about them.

It's ok your khador...what? it's been faq'd and corrected? I guess it was important.

semersonp
19-06-2008, 15:07
i am an orc and goblin player...

i get in ~ 4 games a week...

my stock army sees savage orcs, pump wagons, squig hoppers, gobbos and giants running around like mad...

words cannot express the joy i receive from fielding this protean horde...

i have had games where animosity has crippled my forces until 1/2 way through the game at which point they waaagh!'d forward and won the day...

i have had games where my troops strode forward confidently, were about to waaagh! to certain victory

i have sent steam tanks bouncing off the table like so much crumpled tin thanks to a single thump from a giant's club... i have slain dragons with pump wagons and routed white lions with squigs... i have had a cannonball bounce off the head of my savage orc warboss on the final turn of the game thanks to his warpaint...

i have seen powerful big 'uns begin an avalanche of panic that cleared a table quarter of green... i have had squig hoppers roll the exact wrong amount of movement and block my entire line from advancing... i have had cavalry wiped out completely by animosity during a waaagh!...

in short - i have seen my greenskins snatch defeat from the jaws of victory as often as they have rallied to win while down impossible odds... but no matter what they do, they do it gloriously...

o+g generalship is like riding a cyclone... you have a titanically powerful force under your direction... not your control...

i win most games i play... be they at my local store, amongst friends or in tournaments... it is the diversity of the forces available to orcs and goblins that makes them so dangerous in my reckoning... adding to that the fact that most players consider us underpowered... they go into autopilot and ignore paltry units like pump wagons and squig herds... only to see them rout eternal guard or hold a flank for the game... then it is wondrous to see them throw magics and bolts at a 40 point unit while the rest of my army marches resolutely forward into combat at full force...

ah, the greenskins... some of the best battles i've seen have been orc + goblin v. orc + goblin... though the only 'true' tie i've seen involved a vampire force...

after six turns the only units remaining on the field were 2 black knights and a squig herd... true to form the herd failed their animosity at the top of six and received a charge in the flank by the knights who killed all but one of the buggers...

that squig then fled and thus exploded as squigs do... bouncing around in his death throes... killing the remaining knights... no units left on the board whatsoever...

that being said...

i field a unit of savage orc boar boys @ 2250... they always do something spectacular for or against me...

they are just like the rest of the army... unreliable, possessing a supremely powerful offense with a shoddy defense...

they are overpriced and that makes me sad... but they do pack a wallop (37 attacks w/ the banner of butchery... pure murder) or draw oodles of missle fire and magic...

as for the black knights/dragon princes comparison... yeah, we got the wet end of the hose on that one...

summary: make an orc and goblin army... ride the green wave!... and lets us as one petition games workshop to errata a spot of parity into our heavy cavalry...

:)

Heretic Burner
19-06-2008, 22:14
Come play me, then. I always invite you anytime. Usually you ignore me at this point or start to snipe at someone else. I'd even be willing to drive a bit and even buy the beer afterward.

I really should ignore you. It's absolutely absurd. Nobody is going to purchase plane tickets to take you up on this ridiculous "challenge". How quaint.



So far you always talk about things like you know, but I have yet to see you do anything other than snipe at people, throw out fallacious either/or arguments, talk a lot of theoryhammer about what you're dead-set sure that doesn't work, and not play. What's the last big tournament you went to? What's the last tournament list you took? How well did you do? I trust your opinion about army lists about as much as I'd trust Michael Jackson with my kids.

Yes I'm quite happy I don't include my personal bias in what I speak. It's absolutely essential for new and even older players to be able to look objectively at this situation. Which is why I use proven statistics. Unbiased statistics. No personal opinions. No "gut feelings". No truthiness. Just the facts.

I have always invited others to come up with a stronger scientific base to discuss this. It isn't like I'm alone in using these statistics to base the conclusions upon - GW themselves use them. I certainly wouldn't trust any opinion whatsoever, I trust facts.

I really don't see what else you expect me to do about it. I don't work for GW, not that I expect anyone will be working for them for much longer judging from their dismal financial situation. I don't design army books. I can merely help players find the truth for themselves.



As for my list, I play it every week. It's the same list that I'm taking to the Hillbilly Invitational, the big indie tournament in the southeast U.S. As I said, come play sometime, any list, you can take whatever godawfully heinous netlist you can find. I'll let you sleep on my couch.

Yes the Hillbilly Invitational...and you wonder why nobody takes you up on your absurd challenge? :angel:


Deal?

My rates start at 50,000 EUR a day. That might be enough to draw me to this Hillbilly Invitational. Deal? :rolleyes:

Heretic Burner
19-06-2008, 22:23
Shimmergloom, everyone has agreed FROM THE START that boar boyz were overcosted by a couple of points.

Sadly this simply isn't true at all. There are GW apologists who still believe that everything in the O&G is fantastic including the price of boar boyz.



They still aren't useless though (as compared to the brick), savage boyz are fine, use them or use DOW cavalry rules and counts as to use your models. Every army has units that suck, for boarboyz its not the end of the world since you have two other units that can do the same job.

Savage boyz most certainly are not fine. And if we're going down the counts-as road why not simply count the entire army as something else. Something that is far more effective?

There are no units in the O&G army book that "can do the same job" as boar boyz. None. That is not to say the job boar boyz do is essential, however it is unique. Chariots function differently from boar boyz. Wolf/spider riders function differently from boar boyz. They simply don't equate.

Though you are right about one thing, it certainly is better using DOW rules.



It seems you are trying to mix two issues together:
1) Are boarboyz overcosted (yes, but its not that big a deal since other units can perform the same function and boar boyz aren't that integral to O&G anyway.

Yes boar boyz are overcosted. Yes they are underperforming. No there simply is no way to just replace the function of one unit in the army with another. Are they integral? Of course not, no army should have a unit that must be integral. However it isn't acceptable either to have such a dreadful unit in the army book either, integral or not.



2) Are O&G the worst army that GW has ever released, so bad that they can never win a game against any opponent. Why the lord of creation must be hanging his head in shame at what happened in that army book, lets go to Nottingham and lynch some evil GW staff, the evil machine that deliberately destroyed my army and made it unplayable, oh my god I just can;t take it anymore!!!!....MENTAL BREAKDOWN...

From a balance perspective, this O&G book may very well be right up there as one of the worst ever released. The numbers are absolutely astonishing how poorly they perform in relation to other armies. Though one certainly doesn't have to go to all the trouble of going to Nottingham - if they continue to generate product as poor as the O&G book they'll be out of business soon enough.

sephiroth87
20-06-2008, 02:44
I really should ignore you. It's absolutely absurd. Nobody is going to purchase plane tickets to take you up on this ridiculous "challenge". How quaint.



Yes I'm quite happy I don't include my personal bias in what I speak. It's absolutely essential for new and even older players to be able to look objectively at this situation. Which is why I use proven statistics. Unbiased statistics. No personal opinions. No "gut feelings". No truthiness. Just the facts.

I have always invited others to come up with a stronger scientific base to discuss this. It isn't like I'm alone in using these statistics to base the conclusions upon - GW themselves use them. I certainly wouldn't trust any opinion whatsoever, I trust facts.

I really don't see what else you expect me to do about it. I don't work for GW, not that I expect anyone will be working for them for much longer judging from their dismal financial situation. I don't design army books. I can merely help players find the truth for themselves.



Yes the Hillbilly Invitational...and you wonder why nobody takes you up on your absurd challenge? :angel:



My rates start at 50,000 EUR a day. That might be enough to draw me to this Hillbilly Invitational. Deal? :rolleyes:

Yup. Figured. Didn't answer questions about what tournaments you've been to. Snipe, snipe, snipe. Obvious sarcasm and snobby use of the word "quaint," which so far tells me that you're full of BS.

What's the last tournament YOU won? When's the last time you placed in the top 10?

kroq'gar
20-06-2008, 03:05
@Heretic & shimmer

Orc boar boyz are in the same basket as many out there, yet those armies dont seem totalled.

Nice defeatist attitudes