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ImperiusDominatus
12-06-2008, 15:31
Hey there,

So after my Empire suffered yet another massacre at the hands of my friend's Wood Elves, I decided to come here in the hope that maybe you guys could help me out. There's a rather large skill margin between us, seeing as how my friend has been playing WE's for the past few years and I only have around 15 games under my belt, but I still think it's odd that I've yet to get anything better than a solid loss.

He usually runs a Noble on a Great Stag in a unit of Wild Riders, 2 units of Glade Guard, Wardancers and some Dryads (our normal games are 1000pts).

Most of the games involve the Noble and Wild Riders chewing through my knights whilst my block of Swordsmen gets ganged up on by Wardancers and Dryads. I usually have 2 units of crossbowmen, but shooting becomes largely useless since I can't see his units when they're hiding in the woods and the crossbowmen quickly become pincushions for the Glade Guard.

So, I guess my question here is, how do Empire players effectively deal with Wood Elves, and pretty much all MSU armies in general?

Or, less eloquently, how do I not suck?

Bumble the Great
12-06-2008, 15:42
Magic missles are you friend good sir
Empire wizards are very cheap take lore of fire for some good MM's and let rip those dryads will suddenly think twice about coming out in the open the same for the wild riders and wardancers give it a go! Do it..............Do it

Limenix
12-06-2008, 15:43
Ok.
Forget about Knights.They will never get a clear charge and will slowly get shot to pieces.
Get your own gunline but use non-BS weapons like cannons,mortars and the rocket
launcher thingy.Forest's cover are of no use for him now.
Go Magic heavy.If he can't tree sing the forests he will have a big problem.
Take solid blocks of infantry to guard the artillery.This way they won't panic easily
from enemy shooting.
Finaly don't chase him,let him come to you...and suffer.

Grey Seer Skretch
12-06-2008, 15:52
Ok, his weaknesses are as follows
1.) he has no rank bonuses on anything ever at all ever. Have you contemplated (god I hate myself for saying this) the griffon standard? Get a BSB into that unit of swordsmen and then laugh as he just can't get over the huge combat res your generating.
2.) Cheap wizards with heaps of magic missiles will make you smile and him weep. You don't have to roll to hit, your usually looking at strength 3-4, and he's got about as much armour as a shaved squirrel.
3.) He will alwas, if he knows how to play his army, be able to out-manouver you, so don't try to beat him on this front (a pain in a game thats all about movement, i know, but there it is). Let him come to you as the man said, but don't let him pick his targets! If you keep finding the same units getting walloped by the same opponents, try to stop him pulling the same tricks on you each time. If you have a cannon, maybe place it in such a way that if he breaks through your line or sneaks around a flank, theres a cannon there with grapeshot loaded?

What exactly are you using in your 1k list, that we might advise you better?

OldMaster
12-06-2008, 20:08
Yeah, shoot him to bits with war machines and form a distance.
surely you'll get in trouble with some pesky Waywatchers.... they are almost impossible to hit with normal bullets, but mortars do not care about to hit modifiers :D

Condottiere
13-06-2008, 08:13
Sounds a lot like urban warfare. You have to blast him out of cover (magic and warmachines), prevent him from isolating your units and picking them off and then maybe sending in mopping up forces.

Xzazzarai
13-06-2008, 09:00
No armour and T3, that's a HUGE weakness you gotta exploit. Anything can hurt a Wood Elf - anything. Long-drawn combats are a nightmare for them. They rely on breaking the enemy in the first round, if they don't, they better prepare to take som losses.

So, shoot him with everything you got, and keep your army tight together. Don't let him gang up on one unit.

EDIT: Get his fastest troops down asap. Without them, he will have a Really hard time!

xragg
13-06-2008, 12:31
Unless he is using a treeman or treekin, dont use cannons. Wizards are a good choice for all his units, but remember wild riders and wardancers have MR1. WE can overcome static CR by merely charging your unit on all sides, as most WE players will. Besides the unit with a nice CR, you have to protect its flanks with detachments and/or flagellents.

Maybe something like this:

142 Warrior Priest, Dawn Armor, Talisman of Prot, hvy armor, shield
150 Bright Wizard, Rod of Power, Ring of Volans, lvl2
150 Bright Wizard, Power Stone, Doomfire Ring, lvl2

293 Spearmen x23, full command, shields
--detachment: Halberdiers x9
--detachment: Huntsmen x9
150 Flagellants x15

110 Hellblaster Volley

The hellblaster and flagellants protect your flanks. I gave the archers the huntsmen upgrade so they can skirmish and better support your spearmen. Basic plan is to magic/volley down any quick moving flankers like wild riders, glade riders, wardancers, and dryads. Leave the glade guard for last. The GG will still hurt, but they wont break you like the rest will.

Krusty
13-06-2008, 16:27
might want to add a few more artillery to that...

Gaftra
13-06-2008, 16:40
as a wood lf player heres what i fear from empire.
flanks guarded by hell blasters to tear me apart as i run across the board
solid ranked troops kept close together to prevent me from singling a unit out to roll through.
anything that can resist my initial charge.
almost any kind of magic missile will pick up a unit of dryads, if you can get off magic or other with decent str (5) on a unit of wild riders you will cripple him since they have to count on a 6 ward.
against wood elves the trick is to make sure you have clear los with your war machines and work your way down from the fastest moving targets to the slowest.

ImperiusDominatus
14-06-2008, 01:26
Ah, thanks for the replies!

From the sound of it, my biggest problem was my list. I usually take a couple units of knights, a single block of Swordsmen with no warmachines or magic. I'll make a new list with a fire wizard, a mortar and a helblaster and see how I go.

But this really helps guys, thanks.

MonkeyLord
14-06-2008, 02:41
Well, I play Dark Elves, myself... and we have a very good Wood Elf player in my gaming group,and for the first handful of games, he used to be the only guy who could consistently beat me almost every time I played him. Drove me absolutely bonkers, as I wasn't used to losing so regularly. After about 3 games of this butchery, I eventually wised up...

The Wood Elves are a guerilla army... They fight by different rules than most others, and win using strategies that conventional armies aren't really used to. Now, why was I losing? Because I was chasing him around the board, trying to force him to fight me... all the while, we would wear me down, shoot up my units, and eventually weaken me to the point where his heavy hitters (Wardancers, Treeman) would deliver the knock out blow. Classic divide and conquer. Classic guerilla tactics.

The trick to turning the tables is refusing to play the game on his terms. He *wanted* me to chase him around the board. So I switched tactics: I would deploy in a hedgehog in one corner of my deployment zone. I put my warmacines (repeater bolt throwers) and crossbowmen on a hill so they could see over my troops, and I place all my fighty units around the base so that they could easily support one another.

If the WE player advances his archers within range of my troops, my RBT would chew them up. On many occasions, failed panic tests would keep those archers out of action for a significant part of the game.

If his Treemen came out into the open, I would fire everything I had at him... and if he tried to approach my line, my Cold One Knights w/ my general would simply charge out and kill him.

The Wardancers often had nothing left to do, because unless they got into close combat, they were worthless. And when they're staring at a unit of Cold One Knights, a Manticore, or a Cold One Chariot across the way, suddenly, leaving the woods and crossing that open field becomes a suicidal prospect. But if he wants to win the game, he *has* to.

So, the bottom line is that instead of playing his game, I'm forcing him to play mine. "No, I'm not coming into those woods after you. If you're gonna fight, if you don't want to sit on your hands for 6 turns and wait for a draw, you're going to have to come to *me*, *******!"

Ever since I started using this tactic, or variations of it, I've not lost a single game to Wood Elves.

Most of the advice in this thread is very sound: Get more ranged war machines. Put him in a situation where if he wants to fire at your units, he's going to have to advance to a point within their killzone.

Magic Missiles = Great. anything that doesn't require that you roll to hit will be a tremendous boon.

But most importantly, don't go chasing him around the board. Doing so only plays to the strengths of the wood elves. Instead, force him to do what he's NOT good at: frontal assaults, and enduring withering fire.

The Red Scourge
14-06-2008, 10:41
Ever since I started using this tactic, or variations of it, I've not lost a single game to Wood Elves.

And he hasn't started using Lore of Life against you yet? Please tell him to. It sounds like your nagarythe peacocks needs a stern talking to with a good whacking stick ;)

Chicago Slim
14-06-2008, 10:57
It's not entirely your list-- it's partly the size of the game, which is a bit small.

The Fire Mage should work out for you (magic missiles will rock his Dryads, and his Wild Riders), but also consider the Lore of Life, especially if he's fond of hiding in woods: if you get Master of Wood, you'll obliterate him! And even the 1 spell, Mistress of the Marsh, will help slow him down, so you can take more time shooting him.

Remember, too, that you can bring up to 3 heroes in 1000 points... If a little magic is good, maybe a lot of magic is better...

ImperiusDominatus
14-06-2008, 12:09
Another reason why I find it hard to beat him, I think, is because of the terrain.
In our 1000pt games we play on a 4x4 table as my friend absolutely refuses to play on anything else (he says it's the standard table for Games Workshop) and the majority of the table is taken up by forest.

When I said that he stays in the forest, it's not that he stays still and waits for me, more that he moves up the entire board without leaving the forest. This is why shooting is largely ineffective for me, since he can usually get into charge range of me without ever having to come into LOS. Of coarse, to get past this, I'll be using mortars over cannons.

Also, I think I'll give the Lore of Life a go... Wouldn't it be great if you could burn down forests with the Lore of Fire? :p

The Red Scourge
14-06-2008, 16:14
Another reason why I find it hard to beat him, I think, is because of the terrain.
In our 1000pt games we play on a 4x4 table as my friend absolutely refuses to play on anything else (he says it's the standard table for Games Workshop) and the majority of the table is taken up by forest...

...Also, I think I'll give the Lore of Life a go... Wouldn't it be great if you could burn down forests with the Lore of Fire? :p

It is a fairly standard size. Add another 2x4 per 1000 pts.

And use less terrain. And try to not let him have more than 1 forest for a table that size (maybe just the one his army brings). And do observe the rule, that there can be no terrain within 12" of the battlefield center.

If he insists on being a bad sport, then use 3 wizards w. Lore of Life/Fire and lots of dispelling/power (depending on your opponents magic attitude). Mortars (No to hit and a big template can take a chunk of skirmishers and elves are good targets for mortars). A throng of handgunners (you might only hit on 6s, but 1 in 6 will hit and likely kill). And then a nice big stank to keep parked for when he arrives and you mow him down(or a rocket battery for more templates and less points).

So you start out by blasting away with your mortars (and steamcannon). Your wizards does their best to keep the forests a dangerous place (and keep them in their place), and now you force him to come to you in the open. You've got the better range, firepower, numbers, probably magic too, and the only thing he has left is movement and no place to hide.

...and should he call you a bad sport and a gunliner, you just ask him to cut down some of those trees to make it an even game :angel:

Krusty
14-06-2008, 16:38
well if there is any substantial amount of dryads or a treeman, lore of fire mage is a must

The Red Scourge
14-06-2008, 17:41
well if there is any substantial amount of dryads or a treeman, lore of fire mage is a must

Lore of Fire will only come to good use against treemen and treekin. Also most Lore of Fire spells require LOS so will be hard pressed in a crowded battlefield, and as Lore of Fire spells only have S4 they won't do that much damage against the treekin and treemen. Lore of Life on the other hand has a lot of S5/6 hits that doesn't need LOS along with maximum casting number of 8+, which will be easy to use with Lvl 2 wizards. Indeed I believe that the Lore of Life is the perfect anti wood elf lore, as well as a good lore for wood elves themselves.

MonkeyLord
19-06-2008, 00:42
And he hasn't started using Lore of Life against you yet? Please tell him to. It sounds like your nagarythe peacocks needs a stern talking to with a good whacking stick ;)

Absolutely not! I've got a good thing going here! :D

EDIT: LOL, actually, as I recall, he did exactly that. That Rain Lord spell irks me to no end. ;) But for the most part, he's been been largely unable to do much else with that lore.

Grey Seer Skretch
19-06-2008, 07:19
Another reason why I find it hard to beat him, I think, is because of the terrain.
In our 1000pt games we play on a 4x4 table as my friend absolutely refuses to play on anything else (he says it's the standard table for Games Workshop) and the majority of the table is taken up by forest.

When I said that he stays in the forest, it's not that he stays still and waits for me, more that he moves up the entire board without leaving the forest. This is why shooting is largely ineffective for me, since he can usually get into charge range of me without ever having to come into LOS. Of coarse, to get past this, I'll be using mortars over cannons.

Also, I think I'll give the Lore of Life a go... Wouldn't it be great if you could burn down forests with the Lore of Fire? :p


Eh? I don't know if we're a bit peculiar then, but we always play 6X4 down here, thats kind of the standard size suggested in the rulebook. In terms of terrain, the houserule we always use is each player places 1 wood, no more no less, then obviously the welf player gets their free wood. 3 bits of woodland of a reasonable size is perfectly adequate for the welf player in my experience, if he's pushing you to put a lot more on the table he's having a bit of a giraffe as it's HUGELY beneficial for him and will slant the game heavily in his favour. Remember that fantasy is not like 40k, although a few well chosen bits of scenery in nice places will make the game much more interesting, the board absolutely should not be crammed with it!

Incidentally, to those players who have mentioned the hellblaster, as you have to roll to hit with each shot these days, I can't really see how they're useful against welfs, considering your probably looking at -1 for skirmishers, probably another -1 for long range, at least initially, and possibly further modifiers for cover... Am I missing something?

Now, organ guns, ratling guns, warpfire throwers, those are the kiddies you should be really scared of as a welf player...

The Red Scourge
19-06-2008, 20:14
LOL, actually, as I recall, he did exactly that. That Rain Lord spell irks me to no end. ;) But for the most part, he's been been largely unable to do much else with that lore.

Sad. I would have expected master of stone could have wreaked havoc among those bolt throwers, and then you should be outgunned :p