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minionboy
12-06-2008, 17:23
So I'm wondering, what do you think is the most difficult army to use. I don't mean any special army lists, or any themes that are hard to use (Pure Khorne Daemons, Forest Spirits, etc.). So just using the normal list and not restricting any of your available options, what is the hardest army to use?

I'm putting my money on Skaven, Tomb Kings and Wood Elves. What does everyone else think?

Malorian
12-06-2008, 17:30
Well you have to define 'difficult'.

If you mean difficult as in needing a lot of tactics to win, then MSU WE or DE is at the top of the list.

If you mean difficult as in a lot of rules and special things to remember and do, then orcs are at the top of the list.

3lwap0
12-06-2008, 17:41
I've played a few armies, and Ogres are tough one to play well. Just my 2 credits though..

Dominatrix
12-06-2008, 17:41
Why do I have the feeling this will turn into a flamefest with people saying the other guys' armies are point and click and theirs alone requires you to be a tactical genius to play? :p

Anyway my opinion would be similar to Malorian's. MSU Ogres, DE (with their 6th edition rules at least) and WE. Lots of tactics required since you have to coordinate your moves and have a solid strategy.

minionboy
12-06-2008, 17:53
Well you have to define 'difficult'.

I mean difficult as difficult. Tactics, special rules, dealing with army weaknesses, etc. I'm not excluding anything, just the combination of all things that make an army difficult to use well.

Hopefully this doesn't turn into a flame fest. I play Empire, which clearly takes supreme tactical mastery to use.

pcgamer72
12-06-2008, 18:46
Ogres would seem like a good option, since their book is so bad, but I'm not sure about it. Right now, I don't think the army itself is incredibly complicated because its a lot like Brettonians... just really sucky.

fubukii
12-06-2008, 23:30
Id say certain armies take a little bit more experience to use.

Wood elves, Skaven, Dark elves, ogres, and tomb kings fall under this category.

I will admit though when skaven, ogres, and tomb kings are used right they can be very deadly indeed!

Condottiere
13-06-2008, 09:06
I find DoW requires a deft hand and a little bit of luck. That's from personal experience.

Bloodknight
13-06-2008, 09:17
Ditto, but I think that has to do with most of the choices being underpowered in the current environment. They haqve mostly mediocre stuff and pay a premium for it.

Tomb Kings are pretty hard to win with in the beginning, but once you get the hang of it, they are pretty good, unless the other guy shuts down your magic phase. Then they become weak and slow troops with hardly a chance of winning (seriously, I have had people load up on DD and taking 6 Scrolls vs my TK after losing to them badly once, and against that antimagic power, a TK army does not prevail, because they just block out all necessary incantations).

Eternus
13-06-2008, 09:37
I find I have the most trouble getting to grips with using is my Hordes of Chaos, which is mainly made up of 2 blocks of Marauders, 2 blocks of Warriors, a block of daemonettes, and some extra bits like characters, chariot etc.

I have been using them against a balanced Bretonnian force, and just seem to get out manouvered. I'm still learning how to get the best out of Slaaneshi magic as well.

The Red Scourge
13-06-2008, 09:52
Most difficult army?

Must be one you haven't built for yourself : )

W0lf
13-06-2008, 10:50
its important to distinguish between difficult to play and under-powered/weak.

I think ogres suffer from being generally sub-par as opposed to needing any real skill to play.


Skaven, Tomb Kings and Wood Elves.

Skaven are easy to play if you make use of SAD. Of course write a weak list and they become 'hard' to play.

Tomb kings are easy as pie to play. They just require a very specific way to be played. If you try messing around with tomb kings/chariots/infantry and mild magic you will struggle.

Wood elves MSU require lots of skill to play. No static and inability to deny rank bonus (im ignoring eternal guard for MSU) means they require alot of fore thought. Ive played at least 3 games with every race and as a wood elf player i can tell you hands down they require the most ability to play.

theunwantedbeing
13-06-2008, 11:00
Dark elves and Ogres.

Dark elves are just very unforgiving, and quite expensive with no real benefits.
Ogres suffer from being a small army that doesnt deal with panic very well.

They're the 2 most difficult armies to use.

Mozzamanx
13-06-2008, 11:12
Definitely Dark Elves.

An army of T3, 5+ Armour save troops who cost around 10pts a model, does not an army make.

snyggejygge
13-06-2008, 12:54
Dark Elves, Khorne armies & Ogres

SPYDER68
13-06-2008, 13:15
I find I have the most trouble getting to grips with using is my Hordes of Chaos, which is mainly made up of 2 blocks of Marauders, 2 blocks of Warriors, a block of daemonettes, and some extra bits like characters, chariot etc.

I have been using them against a balanced Bretonnian force, and just seem to get out manouvered. I'm still learning how to get the best out of Slaaneshi magic as well.

Only if hordes could still use daemons :(

Kerill
13-06-2008, 16:05
Tomb kings and ogres.

Andrew Luke
13-06-2008, 16:23
Tzeentch Daemons.

Oh, wait, you said *difficult* to play, my bad :D


Actually, I think Khorne Mortals lists are tough to play. You can only compete is ONE phase of the game. The tactics are fairly straight forward, but if a single thing goes wrong in any of the phases you have no say in, your fuct. Wood Elves on the other hand lack static combat res, but they have incredible movement, incredible shooting, and fairly solid magic potential. I'd classify them as different and tough to get used to, but by no means difficult to play once you've adjusted to not having ranks+standard.

AMP187
13-06-2008, 19:21
I would say Wood Elves, Skaven, Ogres, Tomb Kings and Dark Elves are by far the hardest armies in the game to play. They all require a hefty amount of experience with the army to play them well, and most of them have some glaring weaknesses that your opponent can exploit. They also are all very unforgiving of mistakes, as one bad move can ruin your whole game with each of these.

Xzazzarai
13-06-2008, 19:29
I'd allso say Dark Elves. Fragile like all elves, but don't excell in any phase of the game like WE and HE do.

Gilbo22
14-06-2008, 00:30
Id say skaven, woodelves or a complete night goblin army going up against high elves...

skank
14-06-2008, 12:29
Whaaaat!!!... Wood elves, hard to play?

Fast Cav= easy
Skirmishers=easy
360 stand and shoot, tough monsters= easy
Move through terrain... that moves= easy easy easy

Not hating WE but they are the easiest army i have used, including VC. Ogres are the toughest army i've played as you cannot win toe-to-toe but must flank and don't have manouverablity like WE.
Never played with DE.

winkypinky
14-06-2008, 16:01
An army can always be hard to play if you make a crappy list and is bad at guessing range.

Ps. Dark elves rules the movement phase.

SilentTempest
15-06-2008, 09:54
Whaaaat!!!... Wood elves, hard to play?

Fast Cav= easy
Skirmishers=easy
360 stand and shoot, tough monsters= easy
Move through terrain... that moves= easy easy easy

Not hating WE but they are the easiest army i have used, including VC. Ogres are the toughest army i've played as you cannot win toe-to-toe but must flank and don't have manouverablity like WE.
Never played with DE.

Thanks Skank. I was starting to think I was the only one that felt like this. I've only really played Wood Elves before, so it's hard to compare, but against my regular opponent (O&G) I've just found that I can basically move anywhere I want, run straight around his flanks, etc. I figure a lot of the nouse required in WFB is in the movement phase, but the WE movement phase is so easy with all the skirmishers and fast cav. Sure, it's essential that you get it right, but I don't exactly find that hard to do (and I'm not that great a player). It's gotten to the point where I'm looking for an army with less mobility so I can get a bit more of a challenge and actually have to think ahead.

(Having said all that, WE are very fragile, and because of the very specialised nature of their army (hit hard, hit fast, do NOT get bogged down) I imagine that the army their opponent plays has more effect on them than it does on someone who plays a more all-round army. By that I mean, for example, that I'm still trying to work out how to beat HE with my WE without totally tailoring a list. ASF is a tough nut for us to crack. Whereas, with a more all-round army like Empire, they don't rely on 1 thing (like the WE do with their mobility) to win, so they can adjust better.

Gah, I don't think I'm making any sense, but I'll leave it at that for now.

izikial
15-06-2008, 15:04
i dont think tk are hard to play as there very easy to play as. but as they are limited in how they play if you shut down magic(eather kill the herophant or dispel everything) then they are dead. and every army hase a way to do one of these things

FranticDaemon
15-06-2008, 17:10
I think ogres suffer from being generally sub-par as opposed to needing any real skill to play.

I have to disagree. As all MSU armies, ogres need to plan and sinchronise their movement, also their units are rather long (60-80mm) and unvieldy unlike WE skirmishing MSU armies, so you have to plan your movement even more carefully, and ogre magic is also probably the hardest magic to learn to to use properly (but if you do know how to use, it can be very effective), I think Ogres are one of most (if not the most) tactical armies in Warhammer, they are realy hard to learn and use, but then played correctly they can be deadly.

Rubberchrist
16-06-2008, 05:16
I'll have to agree that OK is absolutely NOT sub-par or underpowered as an army..... Some of their units are a tad goofy, but overall they are pretty horrifying when used correctly.

I have a buddy that plays them and pretty regularly beats the bejezus out of the people he plays... The thing is that nothing in the OK army can work on its own.

As far as Skaven go, I'll also agree they are really tough to learn to play once you put down the SAD list and start writing real army lists.

Once I stopped taking Grey Seer, 2 Engineers, 2 Ratlings, 1 WFT, 1 Lightning Cannon, and 12 Jezzails every game I lost the next 15 games... And now my lists are super scary and only have 10 Jezzails (There is no other way for us to reliably deal with large monsters).

Having 268 models on the table in a 2k game takes a lot of work to make function, but when it does, there are no amount of good rolls in the world going to save your opponent.

-R