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Wolfden
13-06-2008, 16:11
Do enemy units still take a fear test (if they choose not to flee) if they are targeted by the Siren Song item? I look forward to your comments.

neXus6
13-06-2008, 16:24
By my reading I'm pretty sure the Siren rule just says "declare a charge" there is no quantifier that they ignore things while making that charge so I would assume so.

Wolfmother
13-06-2008, 16:25
i assume so but it would be a terror check as you can only take it on a gd of slanesh iirc

Akuma
13-06-2008, 16:45
You can take it on a herald ...

OldMaster
13-06-2008, 17:48
i assume so but it would be a terror check as you can only take it on a gd of slanesh iirc

Terror check? :\

:|


Of course they get to check and if they fail and the US of the deamons is greater, they will flee as normal.

Akuma
13-06-2008, 17:54
"US of the deamons is greater, they will flee as normal."

If you fail a terror check you dont have to have lower US - you just run

:\ :I

decker_cky
13-06-2008, 18:00
And if you fail a fear check to charge fear causers, US doesn't matter either, you just stand around peeing your pants.

OldMaster
13-06-2008, 18:23
"US of the deamons is greater, they will flee as normal."

If you fail a terror check you dont have to have lower US - you just run

:\ :I

I'm sorry, I confused it with Siren Standart XD
I messed up the whole thread, sorry.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
14-06-2008, 10:38
Yeah, but that really doesn't make a lot of sense as it would effectively NERF the very point of the Gift - ie, getting the enemy to either FLEE...or be into close-combat with you.

If any unit that is NOT immune to Psychology is targeted by it...and fails a Fear/Terror check to charge them, that unit just sits there and cannot do its charge.

Essentially...other than making that one unit not move for that turn...you have "wasted" your 25-pt item.

That seems a bit much to me.


What I suspect is that units under the effect of the Siren Song "gain" Immunit to Psychology as they make their charge/flee move due to the Gift....and regain their normal status (non-immune, etc.) after the move is resolved (either the Charge or the Flee) as the Daemon has "stopped singing" at that point and the unit affected is no longer under the mind-affecting compulsion.


Thoughts ?

EvC
14-06-2008, 11:45
You must declare a charge or flee. To declare a charge, you must pass the appropriate psychology test. If you fail a terror test, you're fleeing anyway, and the gift has done its job. If you fail the fear test and so cannot declare the charge, then you must take the other choice and flee, and so the gift has done its job again.

Lord Aries
14-06-2008, 13:04
Nothing says, if you can't do 1, you have to do the other. Unbreakable units CANNOT FLEE for any reason. Its in the unbreakable rule, that they never flee ever. So if you use it on them, they don't have to do anything because they can choose flee... and then not have to flee due to their rules.


If you charge, fail fear, and sit there... its done.

This item is already very broken, don't think you guys need to be making up rules to make it worse.

Finnigan2004
14-06-2008, 13:10
Regardless of how broken some members might personally think the gift is; if the main rule book clearly states clearly that an unbreakable unit can not flee, then they can not choose that as a reaction.

Tuch
14-06-2008, 13:39
As much as I hate to say it, as I truly love Siren Song, a FAQ saying it does not affect units that are Immune to Psychology sure would clear up the problems with it. :(

neXus6
14-06-2008, 13:40
I don't feel this item is broken at all. There is a lot of discussion about how exactly the power works but it is certainly not broken.

I agree with the view that when used on unbreakable troops they must charge. Aside from the fact that most unbreakable units are such because they are frothing mad so it would be characterful for them to charge. :p

EvC
14-06-2008, 14:03
Nothing says, if you can't do 1, you have to do the other.

Basic logic says so. If your boss tells you to either (a) give him a 1000 page report by the end of the day, or (b) hand in your resignation, then you will have to do (b) even if (a) is utterly impossible. Similarly, if a unit must either (c) declare a charge or (d) flee, if it is unable to do (c) because it has failed a fear test then it must do (d); if it unable to to do (d) (Perhaps due to being unbreakable), then it must do (c).


Unbreakable units CANNOT FLEE for any reason. Its in the unbreakable rule, that they never flee ever. So if you use it on them, they don't have to do anything because they can choose flee... and then not have to flee due to their rules.

If they can't flee, they must charge. Simple logic.


If you charge, fail fear, and sit there... its done.

If you fail to declare a charge due to fear, that leaves only one option, which you must take: flee. At least an unbreakable unit will not be able to fail a fear test to charge...


This item is already very broken, don't think you guys need to be making up rules to make it worse.

Not making up rules- clarfiying them so we know exactly what not to do when we face them. The item is clearly broken, however, you are certainly right. If the logical conclusion was something that weakened it, I'd happily post it.

The silly thing is that when the Daemons FAQ is released, it'll probably pull out a completely different answer out of thin air, that has no basic in logic or background. So to be honest, it doesn't really matter how it's played now, we're all probably going to have to change our ways in a couple of months!

DeathlessDraich
14-06-2008, 15:28
By my reading I'm pretty sure the Siren rule just says "declare a charge" there is no quantifier that they ignore things while making that charge so I would assume so.

Siren song is too porrly worded to even begin a discussion.
It needs more than an FAQ - it needs an errata.

Until then it's best to discuss an acceptable interpretation beforehand with your opponent


Yeah, but that really doesn't make a lot of sense as it would effectively NERF the very point of the Gift - ie, getting the enemy to either FLEE...or be into close-combat with you.

If any unit that is NOT immune to Psychology is targeted by it...and fails a Fear/Terror check to charge them, that unit just sits there and cannot do its charge.

Essentially...other than making that one unit not move for that turn...you have "wasted" your 25-pt item.

That seems a bit much to me.


What I suspect is that units under the effect of the Siren Song "gain" Immunit to Psychology as they make their charge/flee move due to the Gift....and regain their normal status (non-immune, etc.) after the move is resolved (either the Charge or the Flee) as the Daemon has "stopped singing" at that point and the unit affected is no longer under the mind-affecting compulsion.


Thoughts ?

Unfortunately simply adding that the nominated unit gains ItP still doesn't solve some other problems of Siren song.

These phrases in Siren song have to be replaced (clarification using the same terms will be insufficient):

1) "must be able to charge"
2) "according to the normal Warhammer rules"

and this phrase has to be modified accordingly

"declare a charge against the Daemon or the unit he is with"

Basically the core of the SS rules will have to be ripped out and replaced.

So far I've used this interpretation (doesnt mean GW will adopt the same :p):

A) Nominate 1 enemy unit
B) Measure the distance this unit will move in order to charge the bearer or the unit he is with
C) If this unit is outside the correct charging distance, another unit [closer] can be nominated
D) If the unit is within the right distance, it must declare a charge or elect to flee directly away from the bearer.
E) Ignore all psychology associated with charging but apply all terrain effects, charging bonuses and unique charging rules (barring psychology effects) of the nominated unit if any.
F) Units that cannot declare charges e.g. warmachines, have to flee.
Units that cannot move e.g. some Monsters, Casket of Souls, Anvil of Doom, Oathstoned unit etc will be unaffected by this effect.

Terrokhan
18-06-2008, 07:29
I think you have miss understood its usage. Being ABLE to charge doesnt mean they have to be within range, they can still 'charge' but just not reach the target. Isnt this the way GW wanted this single use gift to be used? Atleast, i would prefer it to work this way :)

drugar
18-06-2008, 08:36
Basic logic says so. If your boss tells you to either (a) give him a 1000 page report by the end of the day, or (b) hand in your resignation, then you will have to do (b) even if (a) is utterly impossible. Similarly, if a unit must either (c) declare a charge or (d) flee, if it is unable to do (c) because it has failed a fear test then it must do (d); if it unable to to do (d) (Perhaps due to being unbreakable), then it must do (c).

Wait, if I fail a fear test from having declared a charge, at what point did I not declare the charge? Does it say I have to have successfully charged?


If you fail the fear test and so cannot declare the charge, then you must take the other choice and flee, and so the gift has done its job again.

The gift does not say if you try one of the choices and it just doesn't work out for you, take the other. So, call it clarification if you must, but when you're adding material that isn't there, that may be stretching the boundaries of clarification.

Lord of Skulls
18-06-2008, 09:45
Wait, if I fail a fear test from having declared a charge, at what point did I not declare the charge? Does it say I have to have successfully charged?
According to the BRB, if your fail your Fear test, you are not allowed to declare the charge. (Under Charging Fear causing enemies, last line.)

The gift does not say if you try one of the choices and it just doesn't work out for you, take the other. So, call it clarification if you must, but when you're adding material that isn't there, that may be stretching the boundaries of clarification.
Yes it does. It says "must declare a charge or flee". This clearly means that you have to do one of the two... If your fail your fear test you are not allowed to declare the charge, and therefore have to take the other option, and flee.

drugar
18-06-2008, 17:23
Fair enough, but it also says if the unit intends to declare the charge and fails, it must remain stationary in the movement phase.

Although I suppose army book rules override stuff in the BRB, so it would probably be the case that a unit failing a fear test against a unit using sirens call would have to flee (although I plan to look up the exact wording of sirens call before I feel confident with that conclusion).

Fulgrim's-Chosen
18-06-2008, 19:43
yeah, that's the only thing I'm wondering about too - the Big Red Book implies (well, states clearly !) that a unit that fails a Fear test to charge an enemy unit must "remain stationary" - ie, not charge / not move -etc.

This is why I think units don't have to test when charging via Siren Song - they are being mind-affected from the start - why would it be logical to think they are in the right state of mind to be "scared" from the Daemons visage, aura, etc. if he WANTS to pull them in via his song ?

I don't think you can assume that if you choose charge....go through all the steps for that like Fear Test, etc. - and fail....that you then go BACK and say "well, cause you failed...you now must Flee, instead" - ie, choosing the entirely separate option than they originally chose.



In short, I think those who are saying you have to take the Fear Test - can't have it both ways. IE -if you are for the Fear Test, then you must also be for, per the rulebook, them staying put if they fail it (making the Siren Song rather erratic and random in the way it works, since many times the unit failing the test would just sit there anyways, and you don't get them to come at you so you can destroy them, OR have them fleeing away - all that would result is they would lose a turn of moving for your 25-pts 1-use item).

OR...you are for no Fear Test, etc. - but they can either Charge you or Flee, per the wording of the Gift, without having to roll for Psych/Fear/etc. on the charge.


I don't see how people can combine the two effects so that Siren Song becomes even STRONGER (and I am a Daemon player ! - fwiw) !

Mozzamanx
18-06-2008, 19:50
Another question regarding Siren, does the charge have to be a successful charge in terms of range? As in, could you use it at 20", and make them move forward half charge range, or does it have to connect to make it work?

Cos if it can be a failed charge, then it is perfect for busting open gunlines...

Loopstah
18-06-2008, 20:45
Another question regarding Siren, does the charge have to be a successful charge in terms of range? As in, could you use it at 20", and make them move forward half charge range, or does it have to connect to make it work?

Cos if it can be a failed charge, then it is perfect for busting open gunlines...

You aren't allowed by the rules to purposefully declare a charge you can't complete.

So if you were obviously out of charge range you would not be able to charge as per the normal rules.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
18-06-2008, 21:50
yeah, that's the only thing I'm wondering about too - the Big Red Book implies (well, states clearly !) that a unit that fails a Fear test to charge an enemy unit must "remain stationary" - ie, not charge / not move -etc.

This is why I think units don't have to test when charging via Siren Song - they are being mind-affected from the start - why would it be logical to think they are in the right state of mind to be "scared" from the Daemons visage, aura, etc. if he WANTS to pull them in via his song ?

I don't think you can assume that if you choose charge....go through all the steps for that like Fear Test, etc. - and fail....that you then go BACK and say "well, cause you failed...you now must Flee, instead" - ie, choosing the entirely separate option than they originally chose.



In short, I think those who are saying you have to take the Fear Test - can't have it both ways. IE -if you are for the Fear Test, then you must also be for, per the rulebook, them staying put if they fail it (making the Siren Song rather erratic and random in the way it works, since many times the unit failing the test would just sit there anyways, and you don't get them to come at you so you can destroy them, OR have them fleeing away - all that would result is they would lose a turn of moving for your 25-pts 1-use item).

OR...you are for no Fear Test, etc. - but they can either Charge you or Flee, per the wording of the Gift, without having to roll for Psych/Fear/etc. on the charge.


I don't see how people can combine the two effects so that Siren Song becomes even STRONGER (and I am a Daemon player ! - fwiw) !

Fulgrim's-Chosen
18-06-2008, 21:52
* * * Sorry about that - I had hit the post button - left to do some errands, came back - and it was still on my "create message" screen, so I assumed it had not correctly put it up - forgive the double post ! * * * :angel:

Fulgrim's-Chosen
18-06-2008, 21:55
Loopstah - I think there is room to argue that though, and hopefully the FAQ will clarify/explain. You are right that you are not (a player) allowed to NORMALLY declare a charge you "know" you cannot complete - but nothing in Siren Song is "normal" !!!

You are being Mind-Affected by the supernatural compulsion to rush towards the creature that is "Singing" - I don't see that as anything close to a "normal charge decision" on the part of the controlling player.

So it's quite possible that, when the FAQ is out in a few weeks, GW will say that failed charges CAN result - - and the wording in the Siren Song about "be able to charge according to the rules" - is meant to prohibit you from using it on Warmachine Crews - or the actual "immobile" Warmachine itself, or similiar creatures/units/objects that don't normally have the ability to move. It also means that the unit you are using it on has to have LOS to you and you must be in their actual charge arc. Nothing in the wording of Siren Song NECCESSARILY implies that they must also be able to reach you, if they charge at you.

Loopstah
18-06-2008, 22:20
Loopstah - I think there is room to argue that though, and hopefully the FAQ will clarify/explain. You are right that you are not (a player) allowed to NORMALLY declare a charge you "know" you cannot complete - but nothing in Siren Song is "normal" !!!

Except the way the unit affected must be able to charge "according to the normal Warhammer rules".

The normal rules state you can't declare a charge if you are obviously out of range.


You are being Mind-Affected by the supernatural compulsion to rush towards the creature that is "Singing" - I don't see that as anything close to a "normal charge decision" on the part of the controlling player.

The fluff doesn't matter one bit. The Siren Song works within the rules of the game, not the rules of the fluff.

The unit you target with the Siren Song must be able to charge following the normal charging rules. That is how the rules of the gift are written.

If the unit can not charge following the normal rules because:
a) it has no line of sight
b) it is obviously out of range
then you can't use the Siren Song on that unit as it can not legaly declare a charge.

So you couldn't use the Siren Song to make a unit of dwarven quarrellers charge a daemon 20" away.
If the daemon looked like it was 6" away then you could, if it turned out the daemon was 6.5" away then the charge would fail, but as you aren't allowed to measure before charging that's allowable.

The question should be: When do you draw the line between obviously out of charge range and might be in charge range?

EvC
19-06-2008, 01:05
I dunno, as has been said it's so badly written it needs an errata (or to simply be deleted from the book). I've only had it used against me once, on Black Knights to make them charge a Keeper, so I also declared a charge with my Black Coach. turned out the Knights were just out of charge range- but the Coach had to go in still, by the rules. So the Siren Song managed to screw me up without even working correctly. Utter crap.



This is why I think units don't have to test when charging via Siren Song - they are being mind-affected from the start - why would it be logical to think they are in the right state of mind to be "scared" from the Daemons visage, aura, etc. if he WANTS to pull them in via his song ?

This I'd certainly agree with, except that there's precedent with Beastmen, who can go unruly and have to charge nearby enemies- but if they cause fear, the Beastmen still have to take the test, despite being so eager to get into combat. Similarly the Keeper would probably give the same effect- but who knows?