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Peegore
13-06-2008, 23:48
I've posted this new thread, because a question, like the one I'm about to ask, was posted quite a while ago, but went off on a tangent.

So, a unit of 5 vanilla cavalry, riders Initiative 4, mounts initiative 3, charge a vanilla enemy unit.

Little rule book P34 states "Troops who have charged that turn automatically strike first" . "Otherwise...order of I..." And an example is sited where a unit of Boar Riders charges an elf spearman unit, and the "Orcs strike first because they charged"

All this is fine so far. The cavalry model is striking first ( rider and mount ).

THE question I pose to you is: can I freely choose to roll to hit with the mounts BEFORE the riders? RAW suggests I can if I want. Nowhere is there a reference to charging 'mounts and riders' striking in initiative order. The rule goes no further than to say the 'troops strike first' with no further caveats. Which would ultimately lead me to think then I have the choice of what portion of the model strikes first.


Please bear in mind, I'd prefer this thread not go off on a tangent like the other one with multiple charges examples etc :). It's one unit of cavalry charging one bog standard, no special rules, infantry unit.

BTW I appreciate in general this will make very little difference to the outcome of many combat situations, but it was quite a heated debate! Sort of me saying what I thought it IS, with my opponent arguing what it should be. If that makes any sense!

theunwantedbeing
13-06-2008, 23:51
Initiutive order.
The mounts go second if their initiutive is less.

Vandur Last
13-06-2008, 23:59
Initiutive order.
The mounts go second if their initiutive is less.

Incorrect sir, it doesnt say this in the rules. Models that charged strike first, you may make whatever attacks they have in whatever order.
Another example would be a charging Saurus Hero with a sword of Might (+1S) and that Shield that gives an extra attack at base stength. The model has two types of attack and may make them in whatever order he wishes. At no point do the rules indicate that you should refer to the Initiative characteristic.

Same for the mount and rider the OP spoke of. The I characteristic is irrelevant since the rules never cause you to refer to it.

Peegore
14-06-2008, 00:03
Is there any FAQ or direct portion of text that can be used as a reference of this? Obviously I'm not saying you are wrong T.U.B., ( I've been enlightened by many of your replies here in the rules section! ), but it's useful mid game to be able to wave something around in black and white point to it shouting "look, here is the answer. Let's move on..." or something lto that effect, maybe less dramatically :)

Edit- Vandur posted as I was writing this. What he is saying pretty much sums up my point of view last night when debating this issue...

theunwantedbeing
14-06-2008, 00:12
Models fight in initituive order.
Rider with in4 goes before a mount with in3...charging or not.

Page 32 and 34

Lordmonkey
14-06-2008, 04:26
I believe that, since both rider and mount "Strike First", they will both strike simultaneously. This would mean that you could roll for your steeds before you roll for the riders, but it all happens at the same time.

Mercules
14-06-2008, 04:53
Models fight in initituive order.
Rider with in4 goes before a mount with in3...charging or not.

Page 32 and 34

Except a Rider and Mount is ONE MODEL. Now what?

Nurgling Chieftain
14-06-2008, 08:34
Except a Rider and Mount is ONE MODEL. Now what?...Now the horse can use its rider's lance! :evilgrin: (That was sarcasm. Don't take it seriously. ...It saddens me that I have to write this disclaimer, but I know what'll happen if I don't. I'm actually kind of curious if it's going to happen anyway.)

The "who strikes first" rules use the terms troops and combatants, not models. The horse and rider strike separately, as they have different profiles.

Urgat
14-06-2008, 10:54
Okay, so what's the difference if you make your mount hit first anyway?

The Red Scourge
14-06-2008, 11:08
...Now the horse can use its rider's lance! :evilgrin:

Wow! This really opens up a new world of nastiness with dragons and magical lances ;)

But seriously. We have the I stat to determine who strikes first and dice off on ties. If you really really really want your riders to strike after the mount, just equip them with great weapons :cool:

Grogugluk
14-06-2008, 11:09
Ya I had the same question as Urgat

I was trying to think of any situiation where this would matter.


Its not like you ever have attacks in fantasy that you don't get to make. if models were in front of you when combat started you get to attack if your alive on your turn.

Nurgling Chieftain
14-06-2008, 19:00
Traditionally, this comes up when a unit champion you're attacking isn't in a challenge. The charger wants to attack with the riders first, allocate one attack to the champion, and if he doesn't die, allocate one horse attack to him afterwards. It's a slight advantage over simply allocating two attacks to the unit champion, because the horse might get to attack someone else.

Peegore
14-06-2008, 20:46
I was thinking of, say, a mage in the front rank corner of an enemy unit. If he's in a unit of harder, better armoured troops, then I may want to see if the, say, 2 mounts in Base to Base with him can take him out with their weaker Strength attacks, thus reserving all the riders stronger attacks for the tougher enemy. If the horses don't kill him, do I finish him off with the riders or do I go for Rank 'n file. This decision is not purely for CR. It's also thinking of the subsequent turns I may have to continue to fight in and who will ( or won't )still be facing my unit in the following turns of combat.

Nothing more complicated than trying to efficiently manage the different WS and S attacks in my charging unit, and ensuring when the combat is finished for the round I have killed what I want to kill. It may be cosmetic to a degree, but for some people, like me, It can help me focus more on the job at hand :)

And if I'm honest, I'm embarrased to say this :o, I'm one of those people who like to throw for the mounts first, to ' get my bad dice rolls out of the way' ( cos the odd time I have nominated riders first, they always roll really badly... ). I know some of you must think like this. Hopefully;)

Well, we all have our quirks I suppose...

Lord Aries
14-06-2008, 20:55
I would say that you can choose to have the attacks come in any order you want, since they both "strike first" they both count as Initiative (*) where *=I go first you foolz.

505
15-06-2008, 00:16
Wow! This really opens up a new world of nastiness with dragons and magical lances ;)



mmmm stardragon with starlance S10 here we go :D (sighs I can wish right)

anyways what I always do when I charge,assuming I have 5 knights, is (telling my opponent what I am doing) I grab 5 red dice, 4 white dice, and a black dice. the red are the horses the white are the knights and the black is the attack that I direct at his champion (unless there is no champion then its another white) and I roll them all at the same time. I find it speeds thinghs up for the first round

Condottiere
15-06-2008, 00:18
So, a unit of 5 vanilla cavalry, riders Initiative 4, mounts initiative 3, charge a vanilla enemy unit.

Little rule book P34 states "Troops who have charged that turn automatically strike first" . "Otherwise...order of I..." And an example is sited where a unit of Boar Riders charges an elf spearman unit, and the "Orcs strike first because they charged"

All this is fine so far. The cavalry model is striking first ( rider and mount ).

You do realize if the Spear unit in question is High Elven, it is they who strike first?

;)

Peegore
15-06-2008, 00:26
@505: regarding several colours of dice... I thought of that today as well. I think that is what I may do in future I suppose. It doesn't necessarily resolve the initial question, but It'll look pretty ;)

@Condottieri: It wasn't until I saw the 'wink' smiley that I actually thought you were being serious :). But yeah, thats why I said 'vanilla' infantry. I only wish it were the High Elves I was facing, then the whole situation would be a comfortable moot point!

Vandur Last
15-06-2008, 01:16
I
And if I'm honest, I'm embarrased to say this :o, I'm one of those people who like to throw for the mounts first, to ' get my bad dice rolls out of the way' ( cos the odd time I have nominated riders first, they always roll really badly... ). I know some of you must think like this. Hopefully;)

Well, we all have our quirks I suppose...

Strange, in my experience its best to roll for mounts last, that way thier 6 WS3 S3 attacks will cause more damage than all the WS4 S6 attacks of thier riders. or thats how it usually works around here anyway... :P

Tarax
15-06-2008, 12:40
I don't really understand the question. So far you have given no wrong answers, nor any problem which was caused by this rule.

When you charge you get to strike before the enemy (special rules aside). All of your models can fight against any model they are in base-to-base contact with. As the charging player you can decide which models (including any mounts) will fight which models of the enemy, as long as they are in base-to-base contact.
When faced with different models, like a champion or other character, you can attack them only with the models they are in contact with.

Basically the rules are simplified where you roll batches of dice instead of one-by-one. This speeds up play. However, if you want to and have the time, you can roll one dice after the other. With every single dice you state which model is fighting which.

Also, if you don't want to use different coloured dice to state how many attacks are directed at which models, you can roll the dice in small batches, each using a different kind of attack, like: first steeds against troopers, second champion against troopers, third trooper against champion, etc.

DeathlessDraich
15-06-2008, 18:18
Okay, so what's the difference if you make your mount hit first anyway?


Ya I had the same question as Urgat

I was trying to think of any situiation where this would matter.
.

The problem occurs when overunning or pursuit into fresh enemy in an unresolved combat.
See below **


I was thinking of, say, a mage in the front rank corner of an enemy unit. If he's in a unit of harder, better armoured troops, then I may want to see if the, say, 2 mounts in Base to Base with him can take him out with their weaker Strength attacks, thus reserving all the riders stronger attacks for the tougher enemy. If the horses don't kill him, do I finish him off with the riders or do I go for Rank 'n file.

This cannot be done.
A *model's* attacks must be allocated i.e. a player will have to specify how it will allocate the mount/steed's attacks *and* the riders' *before* resolving their attacks even if their Initiatives differ. - pg 32

On the original question:

1) No problem if if it is not a multiple unit combat.

2) It is *not the model* that strikes in Initiative order but combatants - pg 34. Whether 'combatants' mean the model only; or could mean parts of a model has to be assumed.

**3) However, the section on Pursuit into Fresh enemy uses the term *model* and this causes problems. e.g. Boar Boyz pursuing into enemy (A) in an unresolved combat with Wolf Riders
2 ways of resolving this:
i) Roll off to see whether Boar Boyz or Wolf Riders strike first. Resolve mounts attacks, then riders and then move on to the next unit.
ii) Roll off to see whether Boars or Wolves go first and roll of again to see whether Orcs or Gobbos go after all the Wolves and Boars have finished.

DeathlessDraich
15-06-2008, 18:18
Okay, so what's the difference if you make your mount hit first anyway?


Ya I had the same question as Urgat

I was trying to think of any situiation where this would matter.
.

The problem occurs when overunning or pursuit into fresh enemy in an unresolved combat.
See below **


I was thinking of, say, a mage in the front rank corner of an enemy unit. If he's in a unit of harder, better armoured troops, then I may want to see if the, say, 2 mounts in Base to Base with him can take him out with their weaker Strength attacks, thus reserving all the riders stronger attacks for the tougher enemy. If the horses don't kill him, do I finish him off with the riders or do I go for Rank 'n file.

This cannot be done.
A *model's* attacks must be allocated i.e. a player will have to specify how it will allocate the mount/steed's attacks *and* the riders' *before* resolving their attacks even if their Initiatives differ. - pg 32

On the original question:

1) No problem if if it is not a multiple unit combat.

2) It is *not the model* that strikes in Initiative order but combatants - pg 34. Whether 'combatants' mean the model only; or could mean parts of a model has to be assumed.

**3) However, the section on Pursuit into Fresh enemy uses the term *model* and this causes problems. e.g. Boar Boyz pursuing into enemy (A) in an unresolved combat with Wolf Riders
2 ways of resolving this:
i) Roll off to see whether Boar Boyz or Wolf Riders strike first. Resolve mounts attacks, then riders and then move on to the next unit.
ii) Roll off to see whether Boars or Wolves go first and roll of again to see whether Orcs or Gobbos go next.

Why not dice roll to decide since this has to be done again?:D