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Grontik
14-06-2008, 21:03
Ok so I searched through the forums and wasn't able to find a clear cut answer to this so I am reaching out to the fine folks here in hopes that you can help. The situation is essentially clipping but involves the pivot of a chariot which is not as clearly defined as I would like. The (c) is the chariot facing to the left and is about a quarter of an inch from the front of the (G) Greatswords unit with (K) Karl Franz and (W) Warrior Priest facing up.

cccc <--
cccc
KWGGG
GGGGG ^
GGGGG

The chariot declares a charge as it has a tiny corner of my unit in LOS. What the argument is how to line up the combatants ... as I see it the chariot would have pivoted until it came into contact with the unit, the free wheel maneuver to bring the units together then slide the chariot over to bring as many models into contact. (Chariot now facing down and GS facing up)
This would have brought the chariot into combat with Karl, the WP, and two greatswords.
Unfortunately my friend lined them up in the middle (WP and 3 greatswords) and then cited a few examples within the rulebook like Fleeing, Monsters, and chariots to argue the point that a pivot doesn't technically contact my unit. His argument was that the pivot would take the chariot through the front of my unit and then it would back up a little to line up with my troops which would then line up so Karl would not be involved in the combat. I just let him have it to keep the game going but it seemed like a real stretch to me so here I am. Thanks in advance for any feedback ....

theunwantedbeing
14-06-2008, 21:26
Move the chariot forwards into some free space.
Pivot it about it's centre (as thats what a pivot is, and it's free movement) so that the chariot now faces the front of the unit, or rather across the front of the unit so that you clip model W when you move forwards and your alignment put's your corner in contact with the end models corner.

This is 100% legal and allows you to avoid model K completely(at least untill his movement phase that is)

Grontik
14-06-2008, 21:41
Well maybe my diagram isn't the best as in the game the chariot is too close to the unit (his flank is 1/4 inch from the front of my unit and his front is about 1/4 inch from Karl's left). The arrows I crudely put in there are just for the direction the units are moving ... so based on that I'm not following you. If he moves forward any he will then pivot right into Karl's left flank possibly but I do appreciate the feedback ...

theunwantedbeing
14-06-2008, 21:50
Hmmm

Okay a diagram...flipped over for ease of drawing it.

cccc
cccc -->

GGGKW

The chariot moves to the right say....5"
So it looks like this

__________cccc
__________cccc -->

GGGWK

The chariot then pivots clockwise back towards the unit about 160-180 degree's.

__________cccc
__________cccc <--

GGGWK

It wont be facing quite straight but I cant really draw angles on here....
The chariot then moves forwards the contact the unit, at a point touching model W, so that the free wheel it get's to align it to the unit causes it's far front corner(the one not currently touching W) to contact the corner of the end model G.

_cc
_cc
_cc
_cc
GGGWK

So you end out like that, not touching model K at all, but still maximising the models in base contact.

I hope that's a bit clearer.

Urgat
14-06-2008, 22:24
then slide the chariot over to bring as many models into contact.

You don't slide. You have to make contact with as many models as possible, but only if the movement allows you to. There's no sliding or anything. It's crazy the amount of people who think sliding is a legal move.

Really, I doubt Theunwantedbeing's way is legal, going back and forth like that. The charriot just charges the little piece of unit it sees, and when it makes contact, it wheels to be in front of it, from the corner that made contact, and that's pretty much it. Well that's how I see it.

theunwantedbeing
14-06-2008, 22:42
It's perfectly legal.
Infact its nessecary to maximise in that instance as otherwise the chariot will only contact model K.

You are forced to maximise and that is the only way to maximise legally.

Condottiere
14-06-2008, 23:06
I have never come across this situation. I think within reason, terrain and other obstacles permitting, you usually take the shortest way between the starting point and the desired destination.

Having said that, I'll have to admit if you pivot once at a slight angle, you probably could pick at which point your chariot could intercept the displayed unit.

Peegore
14-06-2008, 23:08
Backing up what theunwantedbeing says regarding sliding, the Warhammer 7th ed errata, in it's last few pages, shows diagrams of ' the ideal we should aspire to ', and the diagrams 1 and 1a do show that irrespective of the point of contact of unit 'a' on unit 'b', maximising models is what should ideally happen.

Quote from errata "The best solution is to slide sidways the chargers... in order to bring more models into the fight... This is not technically allowed in the letter of the rules, but if both players agree to it, the game will benefit in realism and fun"

So even by their own admission, it isn't necessarily technically allowed, but requires a gentlemanly agreement. If my opponent was to be that pedantic about maximising models in combat then i'd probably not be wanting to play him again...

Grontik
14-06-2008, 23:49
Wait a sec ... I understand what you are saying as a literal interpretation of the rules even though I think that is pretty lame. Charging past a unit to then turn around and go back the way you came seems to be dyametrically opposed to the whole charging thing but I'll lave that for another argument.
I guess it is relevant now but the chariot had two units it could have charged as I had a knight unit engaged in combat just to the up and left of the Greatswords unit and facing the chariot. It would not be able to pull off the move you are suggesting so what then? Thanks again for the help in this ...

>
KK <-
KK cccc
KK cccc
KK KWGGG^

EvC
15-06-2008, 00:12
Well your units should have been more than one inch away from them in the first place. If you had done this, the chariot should have been able to pivot fully so that it can tactically charge your unit and avoid contact with whichever corner he doesn't want to face.

But assuming a situation exactly as described, the rules are vague. They basically just say to move the chariot wherever you think is necessary without worrying about pivots knocking any pesky terrain or units. Whether you choose to apply this to charging or other complex movement (For example, imagine a forest right up against the flank of the chariot: would you let it slide its entire movement away, or would you make it pivot and take hits from touching the forest?) is really up to you.

Urgat
15-06-2008, 01:57
Backing up what theunwantedbeing says regarding sliding, the Warhammer 7th ed errata, in it's last few pages, shows diagrams of ' the ideal we should aspire to ', and the diagrams 1 and 1a do show that irrespective of the point of contact of unit 'a' on unit 'b', maximising models is what should ideally happen.

Quote from errata "The best solution is to slide sidways the chargers... in order to bring more models into the fight... This is not technically allowed in the letter of the rules, but if both players agree to it, the game will benefit in realism and fun"

So even by their own admission, it isn't necessarily technically allowed, but requires a gentlemanly agreement. If my opponent was to be that pedantic about maximising models in combat then i'd probably not be wanting to play him again...

Thing is, I've seen people abuse that sliding thing to pull units from behind covers, hence why I object strongly to that, now. Why should I slide out of my cover because a stupid couple of light cav can't align because I'm behind a building? If I'm behind that building, it's because I want to be there; no nasty trick of sacrifying a couple minis to make me moonwalk out of my cover is "gentlemanly", if you ask me.

Makaber
15-06-2008, 02:16
How did the chariot get 1/4th of an inch away from the greatswords in the first place? By the rules, shouldn't it be 1 inch away unless it charges?

marv335
15-06-2008, 10:35
How did the chariot get 1/4th of an inch away from the greatswords in the first place? By the rules, shouldn't it be 1 inch away unless it charges?
Since the chariot is charging, the question is "how did the greatswords get within 1/4" of the chariot?"

DeathlessDraich
15-06-2008, 15:54
Well your units should have been more than one inch away from them in the first place. .


How did the chariot get 1/4th of an inch away from the greatswords in the first place? By the rules, shouldn't it be 1 inch away unless it charges?


Since the chariot is charging, the question is "how did the greatswords get within 1/4" of the chariot?"

The unit within 1" of the chariot *charged in the previous round* and can therefore be within 1" of any enemy unit.

On the original question:

1) The charge can be successfully completed - no one I think will dispute that.
Therefore maximising models is necessary and is the only problem.

2) The chariot is required to pivot "about its[model's] centre" when it *moves*.

3) The chariot pivots "on the spot" when it charges. What that actually means is anybody's guess but it seems flexible enough to choose a "spot" anywhere on the chariot model.
Therefore pivot it from the back corner closest to the enemy and then move straight ahead - enabling marginally greater maximisation in this case.

This *will not* bring it into contact with Karl i.e. no maximisation. Clipping occurs.

Clipping can be avoided but even the mechanism to prevent it in the rules Appendix, will not prevent clipping due to terrain.
It is part of the tactics in Warhammer to create clipping sometimes. In multiple charges - the chariot in the corner is a classic case

It is always best to discuss these situations with your opponent *before* charge declarations or better still before the game starts.

Grontik
15-06-2008, 16:03
The greatswords had broken a unit and moved their pursuit distance. In this case I think my friend moved the GS's (not trying to shift the blame but he sometimes does that if on his side of the table) and it probably should have been 1" away. We're playing an 8,000 point battle though so it does get a little crowded and spacing can make things difficult. I will go and set up the scenario again but I would think that a chariot would still pivot into a unit even if 1" away but then again if we had made certain of the 1" spacing then he probably would not have had the opportunity to even charge.

On the sliding thing ... clipping will happen even with the best of intentions but there are limits to how it should play out. I'm not condoning sliding but there are times when it can be used to keep things a little bit neat and only if you are both cool with it. Again thanks for the help in this ....

theunwantedbeing
15-06-2008, 16:05
You pivot around the centre of the model...not any chosen point.

xragg
15-06-2008, 16:44
The rules support theunwantedbeing's interpretation. If there is room to pull off the manoeuvring, move the chariot past the unit, pivot the chariot almost 180 degrees, then complete the charge. A chariot has 2 options when charging.


1. Pivot immediately, then move in a straight line towards its target. This would cause the chariot to clip the greatswords in this scenario due to barely no room to even pivot.

2. Move directly foward, pivot a different direction, then complete the move in a straight line. As stated, if there was room, this would bring more models into contact then the first option and would be the way the chariot has to charge if able in this situation.

Pivoting, at least for a chariot, is clearly described as around the center of the model in the first paragraph governing moving chariots. Although the second paragraph does use the phrase "on the spot", which is equivalent to the term "immediately", especially since turning/pivoting has already been defined.

Lord_Byron
16-06-2008, 07:55
Thing is, I've seen people abuse that sliding thing to pull units from behind covers, hence why I object strongly to that, now. Why should I slide out of my cover because a stupid couple of light cav can't align because I'm behind a building? If I'm behind that building, it's because I want to be there; no nasty trick of sacrifying a couple minis to make me moonwalk out of my cover is "gentlemanly", if you ask me.

You would slide the charger not the chargee. It would be impossible to pull a unit out of cover. If the charger cannot slide completely in because of terrain, they would slide as far as they could, thus maximizing the amount of models in contact allowable by the terrain you are using for cover.

Gazak Blacktoof
16-06-2008, 10:08
It is part of the tactics in Warhammer to create clipping sometimes. In multiple charges - the chariot in the corner is a classic case.

No its not, clipping is EVIL and should be avoid wherever possible.

Sometimes it happens by accident but doing it by design it just plain wrong.

I agree with theunwantedbeing. By quirks of the rules the chariot can be moved in the rather erratic manner described to plant itself in combat away from karl franz. If the chariot were instead a ranked unit and unable to perform such a silly manoeuvre (or if there were units/ terrain preventing the chariot from doing so) then the unit would be slid across to maximize the number of models fighting. When sliding the unit you should probably aim to contact karl franz unless for some reason this reduces the number of models fighting.

EDIT: Its fairer to contact franz even with the erratic move.

Grontik
16-06-2008, 12:55
So let me sum this up to make sure I got it ...

1) Choosing to clip is Evil. Clipping that is the result of pursuing or some other wacky circumstances should be avoided but can happen.
2) In this case where the chariot could not have possibly moved forward enough to perform a 180 pivot (from it's center) and would have to pivot into the unit (thereby clipping) to charge it, the players should resolve the outcome in a friendly manner.
3) Pivot rules suck. What is the ruling in the case of what EVC brought up ... "(For example, imagine a forest right up against the flank of the chariot: would you let it slide its entire movement away, or would you make it pivot and take hits from touching the forest?)" ?
4) In my mind, if you choose to clip then you should abide by the appendixes and that means some sliding. In this case I wasn't trying to get Karl into combat so much as trying to reconcile allowing him to clip and then having his chariot pivot through the air to rest in the center of my unit.

I appreciate all the feedback and it will help in future games as we can discuss how we want to work it out. Thanks ...