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Shinguuji
15-06-2008, 07:43
I know this has been posted a lot of times, and its borderline lockable, but I just want to get this off my chest

So many people, no matter what GW does, the first thing they do is to rant against space marines. A great example is the huge killpoint thread in 5th ed. rumours, someone just mentioned that they created killpoints so that more people will buy space marines. Also, I noticed that most of these ranters play light/dark elves in space, which ironically, is the second most popular race.

When they nerfed rending, people whine that its to nerf elf clowns so that marines will win(ignoring the assault cannon totally), when they nerf DA, people whine that GW is giving marines too much attention by giving them a codex, when GW publishes the BA codex, people whine why their's cannot be published in white dwarf, when GW finally made a model for the elf vehicle, people whine that GW took so long to build their elf vehicle while marines are getting MK2, when GW makes killpoints, people whine that its to boost marines, the fact that elves are also a small elite army that gives few kill points whizzing past their heads.

Seriously, I'm sick of the whining, marines do get more attention because they're the face of 40k, and the only other ORIGINAL contender is tyranids, if marines were unbalanced, then whine all you want, but some people pick every single rumour they hear and attribute it to GW supporting space marines, irrationally and rabidly

Pika_power
15-06-2008, 07:52
Uh, few people play dark elves in space.

Denise
15-06-2008, 07:56
I don't really think you can blame the whole "whining issue" on the eldar players. Whining and progress go hand in hand.

Shinguuji
15-06-2008, 07:57
Uh, few people play dark elves in space.

Oh, my mistake, I was directing that at light elves.

Torga_DW
15-06-2008, 08:11
So you're whining about people whining? oh....kay.... :rolleyes:

Ravenous
15-06-2008, 08:18
Do you really blame people for making a statement when something is obviously wrong?

Blood angels get a Chapter Approved list, but Kroot mercs and lost and the damned can go F- themselves? That's not whining, thats asking for equal support.

You should go work at an insurance company and call everyone trying to make a claim a bunch of whiners. Im sure that will go over well.

Getifa Ubazza
15-06-2008, 08:22
To be honest. GW do give Marines way more attention than the rest. I understand that Marines are the face of 40k. Although some on here do go on abit much about it, they do have a point. I just find it hard to listen after the 100th post. In saying that, i find it hard to hear anyone on a forum. Im much better at reading what they say, But thats not the point.

One thing that seems to be brought up alot, when it comes to Marines, is the money they make for GW. All i would say is, look at Wood Elves. They were very unpopular, got a really good set of rules and mini's and got really popular. My point is, if GW support a line properly, it will sell. Then all the Marine hate would go away, as they would be just another cool 40k army.

One think i really hate though, is when you go to a club. The guy asks what you play and you say Marines, his automatic reaction is to roll his eye's. That burns me.

When i play, i play a person, not an army. Im quite happy to play against Marines all the time. As long as the person im playing against is nice.

I played 2 games once. One against an anal Eldar player and one against a kid with Marines. I enjoyed the game against the kid so much more. It was a pity, as it was the only game i ever played against Eldar and it left me with a bad taste in my mouth, which i must admit, soured me to Eldar for a little while.

Shinguuji
15-06-2008, 08:26
Do you really blame people for making a statement when something is obviously wrong?

Blood angels get a Chapter Approved list, but Kroot mercs and lost and the damned can go F- themselves? That's not whining, thats asking for equal support.

You should go work at an insurance company and call everyone trying to make a claim a bunch of whiners. Im sure that will go over well.

You only single out space marines. BA got downgraded from a codex to chapter approved, if BA got a codex, you would whine too, if BA got dropped, you would whine that they should drop DA and SW because elves did not get their craftworlds, its ridiculous how people can pick up the smallest things to blame marines on.

In WHFB, chaos got an armybook in WD, but why does no one whine that GW does not do the same for chaos dwarves? Why does no one whine that GW only supports chaos

Insurance companies do not accept every single claim of everyone who whines, if I can disprove them all, then I am a good employee, logical failure on your part as usual.

edit:changed 'squats' to chaos dwarves, too much confusion in fantasy and 40k races.

Chaplain Mortez
15-06-2008, 08:26
Seriously, I'm sick of the whining, marines do get more attention because they're the face of 40k, and the only other ORIGINAL contender is tyranids, if marines were unbalanced, then whine all you want, but some people pick every single rumour they hear and attribute it to GW supporting space marines, irrationally and rabidly

Zerg = Tyranids = Alien = Starship Troopers. I wouldn't call them original to 40k. I think that all of the races are unique and create a fantastic sci-fi storyline.

Orks were the 2nd. highest-sold army back in second edition (after marines, of course), but then they went for over a decade with a book that didn't even have a weapons table in it, while marines got two dark angels books, blood angels, space wolves, blood angels update, black templar, Armageddon (which had two marine armies to one ork army), Index Astartes I and II, a new book with 4th, another one with 5th., and I'm still missing a few somewhere...

Oh! And Dark Eldar still haven't seen a new book since the first one was released. Just updates.

Inquisition and Necrons were two great armies that have been kind of forgotten about it seems...still no alien hunters.

Should I bring up Imperial Guard, which are supposedly the most numerous of human armies but have become grossly overpriced and got the short end of the stick with many of the rules changes over the years?

I think marines probably get more models and literature updates than the rest of 40k combined...

Don't forget Lost and the Damned.

Chaos are marines, too. Three books to Dark Eldar's one in the past decade.

Dunno. I don't get what all this ranting against marines is. I must have missed something?

Condottiere
15-06-2008, 08:34
Seriously, I'm sick of the whining, marines do get more attention because they're the face of 40k, and the only other ORIGINAL contender is tyranids,
I thought Space Marines were a rip-off of Starship Troopers and Imperial Marines.

Shinguuji
15-06-2008, 08:38
I thought Space Marines were a rip-off of Starship Troopers and Imperial Marines.

I'm talking about 1st ed. I think the box was only SM and 'nids.

You're right on the count that its ripped off a sci-fi book, so you can say that 'nids are the only original ones around(dunno if they've been copid from 'aliens' or not). Using a fantasy race is stretching it too far though. Orks are cool though, they're funny.

Poseidal
15-06-2008, 08:42
I thought Space Marines were a rip-off of Starship Troopers and Imperial Marines.

And Sardaukar.

Ravenous
15-06-2008, 08:47
You only single out space marines. BA got downgraded from a codex to chapter approved, if BA got a codex, you would whine too, if BA got dropped, you would whine that they should drop DA and SW because elves did not get their craftworlds, its ridiculous how people can pick up the smallest things to blame marines on.

In WHFB, chaos got an armybook in WD, but why does no one whine that GW does not do the same for squats? Why does no one whine that GW only supports chaos

Insurance companies do not accept every single claim of everyone who whines, if I can disprove them all, then I am a good employee, logical failure on your part as usual.

:eyebrows:Yes, I singled out blood angels, I didnt use them as you did in your example, clearly Im at fault for using an example of a clear case of favouritism.

As for fantasy example, the game is fairly equally supported (short of the chaos dwarves who should get an update eventually) when it comes to the races it doesnt have the ultra poster boy marines like in 40k.

People should get pissed when GW decides that they shouldnt support their armies, even more so when they call them 'appendix' or 'apocalypse' only forces and yet will totally support blood angels, dark angels, black templar, space wolves because they are based on the marine template?

And you say my logic fails. You are essentially arguing that marines SHOULD be the only majorly supported army because why? Are you truely that blind that you cannot see an unfair situation right in front of your face?

Oh and carry on saying that its my logic that fails using the tired rebutal of: marines sell well so it makes sense business wise.. etc etc. You're telling everyone who is asking for equallity to shut up and take it.

So yeah I guess by your pathetic convaluted logic I do fail.

Shinguuji
15-06-2008, 08:56
And you say my logic fails. You are essentially arguing that marines SHOULD be the only majorly supported army because why? Are you truely that blind that you cannot see an unfair situation right in front of your face?

Oh and carry on saying that its my logic that fails using the tired rebutal of: marines sell well so it makes sense business wise.. etc etc. You're telling everyone who is asking for equallity to shut up and take it.

So yeah I guess by your pathetic convaluted logic I do fail.

I never said anything about business sense. I simply said marines are supported because they're the face of 40k. Strong reading skills *slow clap*

My point is that everything, from elf transports to killpoints, you guys have to turn it into a rant about marines. What do you mean by unfair? So anything GW does to marines is unfair? Even to nerf them by publishing codexes?

It is clear that arguing with you is a waste of time. Run along now.

Fay_Redd
15-06-2008, 09:11
I too do not like the Space Marine hate, they are GW's biggest sellers so it makes sense that they should get the most attention. and besides, the attention they are giving them ATM (look to bugmans bar thread) is bloody amazing. And my friend this sites nickname where i hail from is whineseer, hence the whining. also side note. how do i go about making a project log?

lanrak
15-06-2008, 09:35
Hi,
I would just like topoint out that no player 'Hates' space marines or the poeple that play them.

Most gamers object to GW totaly messing up the meta game by supporting one army over all others because they are the easiest to turn a quick profit from.

But as it has been said before , GW is a minatures company first and formost now.
So if you are a gamer, you are much better dumping GW and looking else where for a company that puts game play issues over corperate marketing requirments.

The look in players eyes when you tell them you play marines is not 'hate' but a soul grinding sadness as the corperate machine kills the spirit of the 40k game.

WH 40k , 10th ed. 'Space Marine Crusade'.
All chapters of the Space marines have a codex, vs one codex 'Advisaries'.

Aurellis
15-06-2008, 09:45
I understand what you're saying and the Space Marines should deserve a nice place in the limelight but not to the detriment of the other races.

Yes, release chapter variants.
Yes, release random new models from time to time.
Yes, use them as the 'face' of 40k

No one minds these things but when other armies could use the resources that Space Marines have to make them a better model line and game mechanics then the SM should go on the backburner for at least 1 release slot.

I'm a Salamanders player primarily in 40k and I understand the concerns of other games because they are right to express these.

Overt_Spy
15-06-2008, 10:11
Shinguuji takes his toy soldiers damn seriously.

I like baseball.

Edit:

also side note. how do i go about making a project log?

Do you mean one on here? If so, just go to the appropriate project log sub forum, general, sci-fi, fantasy, or terrain. Start your topic and post about your project. Sorry if I mis-interpreted your request, don't know of any other kind of project log..

the nightbringer
15-06-2008, 10:17
I not a great fan of marines, but the money GW makes from them helps to release other minitures for more then just SM. Without them making money GW wouldn't get as much money for other armies. So I don't love them but I see GW needs them.

lain2k3
15-06-2008, 10:35
Tau sell just as well as marines do worldwide, better in some areas.
Eldar and nids are also pretty popular in comparison.

It would be nice if they would spread some of the love, but I too am sick of people going "OH GAWD MARINES ARE SEW **** LOLOLZ THEY SUK" every time anything happens.

Blame the guys who made their fluff incredibly badass.

Damien 1427
15-06-2008, 10:51
They sell well because GW push them. So GW push them, and then they sell well. It'd be the same with any other race, but Beakies have always been rather... Well, special.

People dislike them because they get that much attention, to the detriment of other armies. Dark Eldar and Ork players have had it pretty bloody bad, whilst the Beakies have had numerous sublists, updates, subsublists, optional extras and shiny bits.

I don't mind that they get attention. But I'd rather every race had an up-to-date book on the shelves before GW started to write a full-blown codex for every chapter going.

uchu no okami
15-06-2008, 11:07
GW is a listed company, which means it can literally die on a rumour.
If models sell or don't sell... well that's something they can look at.
But if shareholders "sell" (like they were urged too by analysts quite recently)... they are GONE. Or taken over by someone who will say "screw quality, let's make a quick buck and break-up what's left".
Space marines are a barometer. Not the only one, but a damned big one.
If space marines stop selling... all of us will be minus one of the best producers of wargame models the world has ever seen. I'm old enough to remember what wargame models were about before GW upped the quality and product alignment... and I don't ever want to go back to that place.
To some extent, it's trickle-down love. I wish it weren't so, but let's not all pee in our soup in the meantime.

susu.exp
15-06-2008, 13:41
I'm talking about 1st ed. I think the box was only SM and 'nids.

1st Ed. had no box. The RT rulebook had Orks and Marines on the Cover, 2nd Ed. had a box with Orks and Marines on the cover and as models inside.
The first RT release was Marines, the second one Orks, the third Squats(!), then came Eldar and Guard.
The first glimpse of what was to become Tyranids was Space Hulk, released in 89. At that point RT had been going for 2 years and had the ranges mentioned above in support.

Corrupt
15-06-2008, 13:45
The reason people whine at marines is the excess attention they receive comparative to other armies. As people have already pointed out , DE have had 1 Codex, Orks have their second. Guard are only on their third one if you count Catachans and thats mediocre at best. Meanwhile marines had 3rd ed, SW, BA, DA, plus two new variants in Armageddon, 4th Ed, DA, BT, a WD list for BA and judging by stuff in the new WD about "illustrations for the forthcoming Codex:Space Marines"

Noone minds them being the most played and pushed army. But it is overly excessive comapred to some of the cooler more quirky races out their. Lets face it Marines are nothing special or cool. They're simply the best people ever, with the best training and the best kit. Heavy support is tanks and troops with heavy weapons. Fast attack is simple marines on bikes and jump packs. There's no cavalry, crazy weapons, randomness. They're rather bland considering the push they get

reds8n
15-06-2008, 14:28
The first glimpse of what was to become Tyranids was Space Hulk, released in 89. At that point RT had been going for 2 years and had the ranges mentioned above in support.

Not quite. Both Tyranid warriors, genestealers and Zoats were all in the 1st edition rule book.


...... ahh.... Zoatibix :D......

Shinguuji
15-06-2008, 15:46
The exact thing I'm saying is that people whine about every single action GW makes and blames them on marines, as proven in this thread, downgrading BA from a codex to chapter approved can provoke a reaction against marines. ANY action GW takes, and people will start pointing at marines - foaming at the mouth, from downgrading rending to elf transports, i'm tired of it and it doesn't make sense

any rational person who thinks marines have too much attention, the nerf bat swung by 5th ed, the 5th ed. marine codex, the DA and BA list would be welcome. Unfortunately, not everyone is rational.

Also, I picked out elf players because its my personal observation that they're the most vocal over this, which is ironic because they're 2nd biggest army played. not all eldar(yes, eldar, not elf) players are like that, in fact, most aren't like that, but unfortunately, the irrational ones who rant plays elves

If anything, marines are getting the bad sort of attention - nerfing, so yeah, I don't want that sort of attention, give it to the elves, they'll be happy for the attention, for a start, GW can publish the space elves codex in chapter approved, so they can't say marines are the only ones getting it

IJW
15-06-2008, 16:40
Tau sell just as well as marines do worldwide, better in some areas.
Eldar and nids are also pretty popular in comparison.
Given that several posters with ties to GW HQ have told us in the past that Marines are THE best-selling line, I'll take that with a pinch of salt. The figure I remember hearing was 40%. Not 40% of 40k sales, but 40% of all GW sales...

That said, I've not found the threads. :(

Corrupt
15-06-2008, 17:11
any rational person who thinks marines have too much attention, the nerf bat swung by 5th ed, the 5th ed. marine codex, the DA and BA list would be welcome. Unfortunately, not everyone is rational.

If anything, marines are getting the bad sort of attention - nerfing, so yeah,

The point is is there reeeeally a need for a DA BT and BA codex in addition to Vanilla marine codex (which has traits for making most marine armies in there anyways)

Negative attention is still attention and if you examine the codices each nerf is counterbalanced by some buffs. The point is people are sick to death of power armoured armies being pushed so much. They dont care that its a nerf or a buff, they dont care that there are yet more power armour models for them to buy.

People want armies other than marines to receive a look at. The cries arnt that marines are overpowered! That's why the nerfs as you call them dont shut people up. The cry is marines are done to death, we want some variety. We want new, Guard and most of all some goddamned dark eldar updates.

The problem is they push marines far far too much and we're sick of playing "cram as much ap2 and power weapons into 1500pts hammer"

And why do you insist on calling them Space Elves. It's just flame baiting...

Damien 1427
15-06-2008, 17:23
Given that several posters with ties to GW HQ have told us in the past that Marines are THE best-selling line, I'll take that with a pinch of salt. The figure I remember hearing was 40%. Not 40% of 40k sales, but 40% of all GW sales...

That said, I've not found the threads. :(

It's not far off the mark. Beakies are worth more to the company, last time I heard the figures, than all of WHFB combined. That doesn't factor in their EEEVIL cousins either.

The Guy
15-06-2008, 17:29
I wouldn't exactly say that each new codex of marines nerfs them.
Here I have the third ed and 4th ed ones. And the only really noticeable difference is command squads are changed, techmarines are their own unit, and traits. Also with a few points cost changes.
As corrupt said, people are sick of all the attention they get. I'm sick that necrons have the same stats as them [really shows originality there]. There's much cooler armies then space marines, imperial guard for a start. In my mind they pay homage to all their soldiers of the present day. Even up to the point where not many people care about them or that Gordon Brown just changing his underwear comes top in the news over it.

Dark eldar, the biggy. Most of their models are downright terrible. The only exception really are incubi and drazhar Whereas SM have got updates tac marines, a space wolf one [two actually], dark angels one, and loads of black templar uprgades.
Dark angels [which IMO aren't really unique enough to warrant their own codex] have practically got their own standalone model range.

Yes, space marines have a good model range, yes they are interseting. But there's a difference between enjoying something, and being [I]made to enjoy something because GW are too halfarsed to focus on anything else.

Lame Duck
15-06-2008, 17:30
They sell well because GW push them. So GW push them, and then they sell well. It'd be the same with any other race, but Beakies have always been rather... Well, special.

While that is true in part, you can't deny that if all the races got the same amount of attention, SM would still sell the best. They have the most universal appeal.

But I do agree with everthing else you said.

lanrak
15-06-2008, 17:37
Hi all.
Well lets see , back in RT and 2nd ed , marines were popular. But so were Orks , IG(+Squats,), Eldar, Nids...

When 3rd ed came out specificaly aimed at a wider (read younger ) demographic.

GW pimped the Imperial side of things and the SMs in particular.

Because super men in super armour with super equipment that had mainly (cheaper )plastic models became suprisingly popular.
And GW didnt redress the balance of popularity by supporting the other races equaly.

And from a buisnes pint of view , just selling masses of one product line is more efficient than selling a fewer amount of a wider product range.

But the fact the meta game has gone down the tubes in the process , only appears to upset a few gamers , aparently.(But hey who needs 'gamers' when GW has lots of kiddies , right?)

RevenantX
15-06-2008, 17:37
Because they are elves....IN SPACE!

Now, I don't mean to be overly critical of you Corrupt, because that it a sweet avatar you've got and I'd like to imagine that it's Thundercracker, the decepticon who was always thrid banana to Starscream; but part of your argument kind of stuck in my craw.

It is not 'we' who want Dark Eldar updates, it may be you, but it is not the 'we'. 'We' want space marines, and we're getting them. Look, I own a gaming store, and we are HUGE in warhammer and 40K; big local gaming crowds, etc. And let me tell you, Space Marines sell and push the game forward, we have a pretty diverse group of players and armies, but almost every player who owns a second army, has a space marine army as one of them. They have a lot of great miniatures, great kits, paint up very well and have the ability (which few armies enjoy) to build various types of effective army lists. But that's okay too, I'm alright with having an army with a easy learning curve. Not every army is for every player (ask me about my abandoned Sisters army sometime) and every play style...except marines; there's something for just about anyone in there if you like the look, and it's hard to hate.

Vaktathi
15-06-2008, 17:51
A great example is the huge killpoint thread in 5th ed. rumours, someone just mentioned that they created killpoints so that more people will buy space marines. Also, I noticed that most of these ranters play light/dark elves in space, which ironically, is the second most popular race. Look at how kill points affect an Imperial Guard army and you will see why its broken. Take an IG army with 19 kill points and a Marine army with 8 (not exactly an uncommon occurance) and the Marine army auto-wins unless it is wiped off the board to a man.




When they nerfed rending, people whine that its to nerf elf clowns so that marines will win(ignoring the assault cannon totally) If you are relying on assault cannon spam to win, well then its your own fault. pretty much everyone will agree that the Assault Cannon got an over-buff from its terrible 3E version. It lost its chance to jam, gained a shot and gained Rending. the first two should have been sufficient. As is, currently its a better anti-AV14 weapon than a Lascannon. With the new rending rules, it will be far better balanced. Also, Harlies generally play a much greater role in an Eldar army than a couple assault cannons in an SM army unless its going AC spam, which nobody wants to play against.


when they nerf DA, people whine that GW is giving marines too much attention by giving them a codex Did they nerf DA? They may have nerfed one build, but their army as a whole got stronger.


when GW publishes the BA codex, people whine why their's cannot be published in white dwarf Again, mainly because GW axed every other WD list, and basically every other list that doesn't have its own book.


when GW finally made a model for the elf vehicle, people whine that GW took so long to build their elf vehicle while marines are getting MK2, when GW makes killpoints, people whine that its to boost marines, the fact that elves are also a small elite army that gives few kill points whizzing past their heads. You really seem to have it in for Eldar. While I'll admit that the elves don't have it bad at all (in fact currently they are probably the best book next to Orks), its not just Eldar players that feel that Marines get oversupported next to other armies.




Seriously, I'm sick of the whining You are going to whine because you are sick of whining?


marines do get more attention because they're the face of 40k, and the only other ORIGINAL contender is tyranids You do realize that the Imperial Guard (it was the Imperial Army back then) Orks and Eldar were all also in 40k at the start in RT, and Marines were in fact just slightly stronger Guardsmen that were still T3 with a 4+ save (with armor modifiers, meaning a lasgun had them saving on a 5+)


if marines were unbalanced Some people would argue their current codex is pretty unbalanced. When you can fit in 80 Ld10 ATSKNF marines with 26 BS4 heavy weapons (more than most IG armies) with 12 of them infiltrating or tank hunting in a 2000pt army with no real drawback, then yeah, something may be wrong.


but some people pick every single rumour they hear and attribute it to GW supporting space marines, irrationally and rabidly I'll agree with this statement, however attempting to just pass off the amazing support that Marines get compared to other races, especially considering the number of different marine armies, isn't something to be done lightly either.

Shinguuji
15-06-2008, 17:53
*Good points*

Nice points you made there.

I only have a few counter points. Lets say they don't bring out the nerf bat, and marines still use their 4th edition codex, can you see people whining over how GW doesn't update marines because they want them to stay over-powering?

My rationale for saying that is that some people start foaming at the mouth the moment GW does ANYTHING (even not doing anything, will make them whine), not just marines, the infamous killpoints for one, I even remember that when they released the wave serpent, people were whining that marines got MKII of their tanks before eldar got their waveserpent (or was it the falcon?).

It gets to the point, where anything GW does can be linked to boosting marines abilties, sales, etc.

When the DA codex was released, people were whining how the nerf on DA does not affect all marines, and how marines are still super, so now they get their shiny new codex, and they whine that marines get too much attention

also, keep in mind that there has been no codex release for any imperium faction for a year already.

the BA fiasco is ridiculous. I really hope they publish the eldar codex in white dwarf, in bare-bones format, and make it available as a free download.

I too want to see new armies, like IG, I'm waiting for them to release the greatcoat guardsmen, while I quickly paint up my new tyranids, but that, however, is not my point. My point is that a vocal minority, which is sadly growing, starts foaming at the mouth and pointing at marines the moment GW does anything at all, and that is annoying, to say the least

people call marines smurfs, so I just felt like calling eldar elves, but okay, I made the mistake of stooping down to their level, so I'll call them eldar only when talking to the normal rational people

RevenantX
15-06-2008, 18:03
Besides, I don't know why everyone is freaking out about Kill Points. It's the win condition for ONE mission set (Annihilation) in the new rule book...and until we get some FAQs (which they've promised us on July 11-12 with the new book) we don't even know really how they'll interact with Combat Squads, platoons, Zoanthropes, whatever. Everyone should relax on that one.

I don't think DA got nerfed at all, it's a pretty balanced list.

Shinguuji
15-06-2008, 18:04
Look at how kill points affect an Imperial Guard army ...

If you are relying on assault cannon spam to win, ....

Again, mainly because GW axed every other WD list...

You really seem to have it in for Eldar...

Some people would argue their current codex is pretty unbalanced....

I'll agree with this statement, however attempting to just pass off the amazing support that Marines get compared to other races, especially considering the number of different marine armies, isn't something to be done lightly either.

You made pretty good points but....

Well, Killpoints benefits armies like eldar too, so why blame the marines? I don't like killpoints too, but that's not the point of my post

the assault cannon was an EXAMPLE. people also rely on harlequins to win.

GW DOWNGRADED BA to a white dwarf list. I'd rather it come out as a codex, like I said, if any other armies want a white dwarf list, I'd say, give it to them, and take away their codex. its not a new list, its a DOWNGRADE

Marines need a new codex because of all the traits make them unbalanced, marines do not need a new codex because they're oversupported, so what's GW to do? either way, people will whine. maybe GW should downgrade everything to white dwarf?

my point ultimately is that i find the way people blame marines for every and anything extremely annoying to say the least

yes, i'm whining about whining, but the whining i'm whining about is very annoying and irrational, so i want to get it off my chest.

I don't hate eldar or anything. only that the most vocal about marines seems to be people who play eldar.

Shinguuji
15-06-2008, 18:09
Hi all.
Well lets see , back in RT and 2nd ed , marines were popular. But so were Orks , IG(+Squats,), Eldar, Nids...

When 3rd ed came out specificaly aimed at a wider (read younger ) demographic.

GW pimped the Imperial side of things and the SMs in particular.

Because super men in super armour with super equipment that had mainly (cheaper )plastic models became suprisingly popular.
And GW didnt redress the balance of popularity by supporting the other races equaly.

And from a buisnes pint of view , just selling masses of one product line is more efficient than selling a fewer amount of a wider product range.

But the fact the meta game has gone down the tubes in the process , only appears to upset a few gamers , aparently.(But hey who needs 'gamers' when GW has lots of kiddies , right?)

While I'm tempted to reply to this with words like 'neckbeard', 'profit', 'newblood' and 'bankrupt', how biased GW are to SM is not the point of my post, my point was to point out how people irrationally blame marines for everything

Corrupt
15-06-2008, 18:13
My rationale for saying that is that some people start foaming at the mouth the moment GW does ANYTHING

Agreed on this point. I remember the outcry about ASF elves which i play (which used to be near enough the weakest race) I can see what you mean about the excess whining etc. I merely wanted to clarify the (valid) reasons for the marine hating as opposed to complainging Eldar/Guard/Orks/Skaven/Empire/ Whoever else. I agree GW get a lot of whining no matter what they do and they're in a sticky position. I just think some(but by no means all) of the complaints about over pushing marines are justified and wanted to play devils advocate

Vaktathi
15-06-2008, 18:41
also, keep in mind that there has been no codex release for any imperium faction for a year already. And the first 3 for 5E are all Imperial books. SM, SW, IG.


the BA fiasco is ridiculous. I really hope they publish the eldar codex in white dwarf, in bare-bones format, and make it available as a free download. I don't see how the BA codex was a fiasco or how it was barebones or anything else.



Well, Killpoints benefits armies like eldar too, so why blame the marines? I don't like killpoints too, but that's not the point of my post I wouldn't blame marines per se, and it does benefit other armies. However Marine armies will generally give up the least number of kill points. Eldar armies have the drawback that their transports also give killpoints, making the average Eldar army larger in that regard than an average Marine army, and my Imperial Guard army (which will have exactly 3 scoring units in 5E) has a total of 19 kill points to my Chaos Marines 5-8.




GW DOWNGRADED BA to a white dwarf list. I don't see why its a downgrade. Just because its in WD rather than a pamphlet of a "book" shouldn't make much difference. Their list isn't bad at all. It may not be as good as the Eldar or Orks books, but most armies aren't.



I'd rather it come out as a codex, like I said, if any other armies want a white dwarf list, I'd say, give it to them, and take away their codex. its not a new list, its a DOWNGRADE Again, *how* is it a downgrade? Just because its available free without a $22 book? The WD list is has just as many pages as their old codex, but its free and isn't referencing the basic Marine book for everything. The Blood Angles WD list was far and away more detailed and expansive than the recent Warriors of Chaos list for example (which was 5 pages of crap army list and no characters compared with 26 pages of pics, fluff, characters, special rules and army list)



Marines need a new codex because of all the traits make them unbalanced, marines do not need a new codex because they're oversupported, so what's GW to do? either way, people will whine. I'll agree there that its sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, but at the same time Marines certainly aren't seeing a nerf with their new codex and are getting more new goodies than any other army I can think of.



my point ultimately is that i find the way people blame marines for every and anything extremely annoying to say the least I don't think they necessarily blame marines for everything, but you can't deny that its frustrating for some armies (lets say Orks) to go almost 10 years before an update, while in the meantime 8 different Marine books come out in the same timespan (Space Wolves, Chaos 3.5, Chaos 4/5e, Vanilla marines 4E, Daemonhunters, BA, DA, Black Templars) and then the first two books of 5E are both Marine lists. Granted SW's need a list very bad, but it can be very frustrating to see two SM lists before anything else.




I don't hate eldar or anything. only that the most vocal about marines seems to be people who play eldar. in my *very* subjective opinion, "elf" players always seem to be the most natty, no matter what game system you are playing (I say this with a box of Dire Avengers, a falcon and a Wave Serpent on my desk:p). That said, such feelings are *by no means* restricted Eldar players. Even as an SM player of sorts (Chaos) I think that Marines for the most part could be consolidated into Loyalist (vanilla list, BA sublist,DA sublist, BT sublist, Space Wolves sublist), Chaos (renegade sublist, Legions sublists) and Daemonhunters codex's. You'd get 2 really big marine books with a some large sublists, and one Grey Knights list which would probably actually be folded into a single INQ book, so 3 books with large variations within them instead of 7 different SM books as we have now.

Shinguuji
15-06-2008, 18:57
*snip

Yeah, so it evens up?

BA was a fiasco because people whined about it. It's not that its good or bad, a simple update managed to get whined about, so I hope those people gets their army published as a WD list.

Marines needs transports too. A simple rhino gives away a VP, and is far easier to kill than a waveserpent. If anything eldar gives away even lesser VP than marines generally.

marines get their nerf from removing traits, min/maxing and combat squads. you said it yourself.

Some ranting is justified, some is not. I think for things like killpoints, the BA codex, etc, it just blows my mind how people can link it to being a plot to make marines powerful.

Also, despite all the nerfing RECENTLY, people still whine.

Yeah, some eldar players do talk weird. In one post, they'll say how marines are so overpowered, and in the next, they'll say how they can crush marines by turn 3, sometimes they even do it in the same post. also, I get the impression some of them wants eldar to be the face of 40k, which would be terrible.

Bloodknight
15-06-2008, 19:10
I think one of the reasons why GW pushes SM is that they are just no work. You take the basic, rather simple and bland SM armour model, attach a few bits and bobs...*kaching* new unit. You can let the newbies do that without risking them to ruin it. The development of those minis just does not take as much time and money as the more interesting figures GW sell.


downgrading BA from a codex to chapter approved
Well, their "Codex" was pretty much a Chaper Approved article stapled in cardboard - not much of a difference, if you ask me. I am inclined to believe that the WD list does not have less pages than the Codex had....and frankly, most SM variants could do with a WD article (note I said SM variants, because other codices seemingly get no variants at all).

I think the "SM sell, so they need the most attention" is false reasoning. If everything got the same support, it would sell. I assume that the WFB armies do not have such a lopsided sales statistic as 40K (although the actual figures itself are obviously higher for 40K, because it just sells more).


As for the whining: I think that at least the DE players don't really whine. While we want a new codex, I think all we can expect is a big nerf and beautiful models. I also assume that they will become quite popular if their models become in 40K what the Dark Elves are in WFB: some of the best GW produce.

carlisimo
15-06-2008, 20:29
As an Eldar player, I was full of Space Marine hate until the newest Eldar codex and all the releases that came with it. I finally feel happy as an Eldar player and don't mind new marine releases now that they've basically done the Eldar justice.

Goose
15-06-2008, 20:49
I thought Space Marines were a rip-off of Starship Troopers and Imperial Marines.

I thought they were a rip off of Buzz Lightyear. Only I'm pretty sure 40k came before that.

Anyways...

I'm here to voice my reasons for marine hate. I don't think I've posted a message ranting about marines, yet I hate them too.

Not just because they get a lot of attention, but because everyone loves them, and I think they are incredibiliy lame.

Marines don't look threatening to me. They look like Buzz lightyear with a gun and a helmet. They come in silly colors too. Yellow, red, blue, and even purple. If your going to be comitting genocide, bombing planets up, and fighting a war, at least try and look brutal. Not like some cheesey action figure.

Then this army appears everywhere like an infestation with people that love them. I'm waging a personal war aganist Marines.

Yet I'd hate it if they got rid of Marines. Because I love killing them.

I don't really voice my marine hate (besides now, I also just have to let it out.), because I think its stupid. I'm more fed up with my dislike of marine fluff then I am of imbalances or what not. Everyone has their own personal tastes. I'd rather not dwindle in my dislikes, but work with my likes.

Anyone else like me? They just don't find marines cool at all?

Also, don't even compare the BA codex to the Warriors of Chaos book. Thats just a joke comparison. The Warriors of Chaos book will only have a lifespan until November. You can still use the old book if you anyways. I'm pretty sure the BA book is supposed to last a lot longer then the warriors book. Which is why it is bigger.

TheDarkDuke
15-06-2008, 23:41
As I am from Canada I think of SM much like the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Toronto Maple Leafs + Largest fan base
Toronto Maple Leafs + Most hated by Hockey fans
Toronto Maple Leafs = Not most popular team
However:
Toronto Maple Leafs = Most profitable team

and in the 40k world of GW

Space Marine + Largest fan base
Space Marine + Most hated by 40k fans
Space Marine = Not the most popular army
However:
Space Marine = Most profitable army

PS: I am not a Leaf fan... I need to ensure no one thinks that! lol.

RevenantX
16-06-2008, 03:30
Go Red Wings! YEAAAAAAAAAAAH!

vladsimpaler
16-06-2008, 03:40
In my eyes, the biggest problems with Space Marines has to be the fact that they always have these abilities that circumvent the rules, i.e. Power of the Machine Spirit, and supposedly that other ability that lets them fall back from combat.

Also, the fact that they're around the most.
Yes, you can say, "Oh, well they're the most profitable, therefore more of their stuff should be made!"
But...doesn't every army have that potential to be really profitable? I wish that GW would try this, but alas, I am not GW.

The other nasty thing, at least an indirect thing, are the main consumers of all thing SM-kids. No, I don't hate kids, as I'm a kid too. I don't play SM, though. But onto what I was going to say.

Most kids that I know who play the game buy the codex and a couple other things, then quit because they don't really like it; it's too _____, etc. And, from what I've seen, adults often pay way more than kids. You don't think so? Forgeworld could argue with that.

What I think GW doesn't realize is that Space Marines, at least from what I see, are really suffocating the rest of the armies, and in some cases, alienating them. I don't like that a single bit.

Occulto
16-06-2008, 04:01
I think the "SM sell, so they need the most attention" is false reasoning. If everything got the same support, it would sell. I assume that the WFB armies do not have such a lopsided sales statistic as 40K (although the actual figures itself are obviously higher for 40K, because it just sells more).

I don't think they would.

With SM, 50 models = a full army so it's relatively cheap (compared to horde armies). You can paint it to an acceptable tabletop standard in an entire weekend (undercoat, ink, pick out a few colours and add decals). As an added bonus, it's almost like a Lego kit where bits and pieces can be interchanged throughout the range. It's not just a good training army for game play, but all aspects of modelling. Even learning to greenstuff is relatively easy with SM.

All the other armies share some of these qualities (ie Orks are easy to convert) but generally have a downside for a new player (ie Orks are horde so much more expensive to collect). SM are the complete package and they're recommended accordingly, not just by GW, but by the majority of players. Just read threads where someone says: "I'm new, what should I start out with?"

WHFB don't have a comparable army that offers the complete deal.

Brucopeloso
16-06-2008, 08:41
The point is is there reeeeally a need for a DA BT and BA codex in addition to Vanilla marine codex (which has traits for making most marine armies in there anyways)

Negative attention is still attention and if you examine the codices each nerf is counterbalanced by some buffs. The point is people are sick to death of power armoured armies being pushed so much. They dont care that its a nerf or a buff, they dont care that there are yet more power armour models for them to buy.

People want armies other than marines to receive a look at. The cries arnt that marines are overpowered! That's why the nerfs as you call them dont shut people up. The cry is marines are done to death, we want some variety. We want new, Guard and most of all some goddamned dark eldar updates.

The problem is they push marines far far too much and we're sick of playing "cram as much ap2 and power weapons into 1500pts hammer"

And why do you insist on calling them Space Elves. It's just flame baiting...


Completely agree! Most of the people complaining about marines do not hate marines per se but are just a tad tired of waiting years for an update to their armies. Sometimes even a WD dex BA style would go a long way to satisfy people.

battle captain corpus
16-06-2008, 10:05
www.bolterandchainsword.com is my answer :D hahahhahaha!

TimLeeson
16-06-2008, 10:30
I was a bit shocked at how many human books there were compared to to Xenos (9 human, 6 alien.. I think) when I got propery into this hobby recently, but I never saw any need to hate the marines or anything, they aint my cuppa tea personally but I just say each to their own, people can like what they like :) I say the best way to do something about it is to just sculpt your own armies and try and restore the balance, thats what I do anyway...but my main critisism of 40k is more that its all just humanoids except for nids...

Plastic Rat
16-06-2008, 12:37
but my main critisism of 40k is more that its all just humanoids except for nids...

The biggest problem with creating any race is that people need to 'connect' with it somehow. Making something humanoid is one of the easiest ways because we share something immediately. We 'connect' with Tyranids I'm guessing on a subconscious level because of the aliens movies which were very popular as well as the concept of multi-limbed bugs.

GW could bring out a race of 'gas' based aliens.. but in the end, we'd just have mobile and intelligent farts roaming around the battlefield. Or slime/gelatinous cube type things. ...nothing to identify with. Nothing to connect to.

Try and come up with a race that isn't a humanoid but also has it's own 'shtick' that isn't campy or silly. Something people can get behind and connect to. Don't know about you, but I struggle.

TimLeeson
16-06-2008, 12:41
I dont care if I emotionally identify, as long as I like the "look" or "backround" of them - but I understand people like things for different reasons. Personally im happy with my scary plant creatures and giant bio-mechanical squids - but from a sales perspective then yeah I can understand that truly alien things might not sell very well (which is why I DIY) :)

Richter Kless
16-06-2008, 21:59
GW needs Marines like a human needs air.

Without the Marines, armies like the Dark Eldar would not be able to exist in their current state.

And itīs not just the fanatical pushing that makes the Marines popular, itīs their concept.
Marines are like the Spartans of 300: big, bulky, manlyness that is ready to face an enemy of far superior numbers.
This archetype has always appealed to people, hence it is often used in fiction and film. (Rambo, the Lord of the Rings, 300, etc)
Space Elves or the Space Church will never have as much appeal to the main audience, no matter how much you push them.

Starchild
17-06-2008, 05:49
Just for the record, I think Space Marines are incredibly cool. I've played the game since it first came out in the late 80's. Honestly, sci-fi doesn't get much better than gothic superhumans in power armour.

But there are things that bother me about them-- not how they are portrayed in the books, but rather what happens in actual games.

I put at least a small part of this blame on Halo. Why? In multiplayer Halo games, the contestants fight over generic maps that have little or nothing to do with the campaign. Too, it becomes quite chaotic when Master Chiefs (where did they all come from??? :wtf:) pick up and use human and Covenant weapons willy nilly. That's OK for mindless bashing and capture the flag. But that's not OK if someone wanted to reenact the Spartan vs. Covenant battles, for example.

And that's not OK for a hobby wargame, which should have meaning and purpose. I think many youngsters pick up 40k and bring their Halo (or Halo-equivalent) experience, choosing Space Marines as the army they can most readily identify with. There's nothing inherently wrong with Space Marines. I just think they don't get a fair representation on the tabletop, except from the most dedicated players. A hobby requires a lot of time and effort, after all. Most youngsters don't have the patience for it, and it shows. :(

BrainFireBob
17-06-2008, 06:01
Hi,
I would just like topoint out that no player 'Hates' space marines or the poeple that play them.


Patently false. Pay close attention to the anti-Marine posts, don't just shrug off those who support an anti-Marine position you share, but are "a bit extreme."

Some of those people are not exaggerating. They're irrational.

BrainFireBob
17-06-2008, 06:12
Given that several posters with ties to GW HQ have told us in the past that Marines are THE best-selling line, I'll take that with a pinch of salt. The figure I remember hearing was 40%. Not 40% of 40k sales, but 40% of all GW sales...

That said, I've not found the threads. :(

Most of them are in Other GW

EDIT:

Allright, time for the honesty, since the post that implied this was ignored.

"We," the fanbase, want Marines most.

People think that if Marines are done less often, they will get their codex more quickly.

What it really is, when you talk about the actual hate, is childish envy and spite- "I want what they get, I *deserve* it."

It's totally irrational, and not worth wasting time on.

There's also the counter-culture haters, too, in honesty- since Marines are popular, they hate them, because this makes them more insightful/mature/cool. These are the people who believe like gospel that if a movie or music is popular, it must be terrible. Because group opinion determines their personal opinion, more than it does for any other group of people.

Kahadras
17-06-2008, 06:32
Part of the problem is the fact that Marines are probably the easiest army to collect and paint. For people getting into the hobby this is great as it keeps costs down and allows them to have an easy starting point to improve their painting skills from.

Without Marine I would expect most new players would start with Tau. Again they feature primeraly plastic models, are fairly easy to paint and are again fairly cheap to collect (going tank and Crisis suit heavy). Then we would have people ranting on about how Tau were over represented as GW push it as their primary army to get people into the hobby.

Kahadras

TheOverlord
17-06-2008, 07:08
Eh, I don't hate Space Marines. I hate 'Loyalist' Marines :) Chaos ftw.

Anyway, I don't like them loyalist from two standpoints, fluffwise and of course, tabletop wise.

I just don't like their Universal Special Rules, and we all know that isn't so Universal at all, is it?

Koryphaus
17-06-2008, 07:41
It was pretty dumb putting ATSKNF in the Unversal Special Rules section, but think about it - BA, DA, SW, BT, Loyalist Vanilla Marines, Grey Knights, Deathwatch (not to mention Afriel Strain Abhuman IG.

That's 1/2 the playable armies in the game, so 1/2 the armies will use it, or at least may include elements that will use it, so it is a fairly broadly applied special rule.

My guess is that's so everyone can see what the rule is and aren't caught by surprise when they play space marines for the 1st time..

tankworks
17-06-2008, 07:50
I don't give a rats ass but I LOVE reading these down and dirty in your face stab in the back trench-warfare type posts!

Irennicus
17-06-2008, 09:04
Maybe they are necessary for GW to do well as a company. I guess I'll buy that since I'm not looking at their bottom line.

However, their best-selling army is one that I could never assemble for that reason alone. I want to play the game with as many people as possible, but I'm not fond of mirror matches. The amount of SM vs. SM matches I see is staggering. When I'm walking through a store with players, I check out the non-SM armies first every time.

Even if they are cool, they've saturated the environment. What makes them cool is now the norm. If they represented 15% of the armies played they'd be much more striking.

TheOverlord
17-06-2008, 09:27
I really don't think that is an excuse for it being a USR, but then it is a logical explanation. Just makes me seethe even more than now I learn they have even more special rules under their belt >< As though ATSKNF wasn't good enough for them.

uchu no okami
17-06-2008, 10:41
Without Marine I would expect most new players would start with Tau. Then we would have people ranting on about how Tau were over represented as GW push it as their primary army to get people into the hobby.

In so much as "if it weren't space marines it would be someone else"... I totally agree. And yeah it might have been the Tau, except they weren't there at the start.

People "get" what an elf or a dwarf is. There are external frames of reference for these.
But the 40k universe is an original creation, albeit with massive borrowings from Dune, Starship Troopers, Alien... etc. Something in its presentation almost demands a central image. The tactical space marine is the signature image of the 40k universe. Like a key riff in a guitar solo.

There is a lovely but naive notion that Tom, Dick and Harry must all get equal share of everything - because that's what we were taught should happen when we learnt fairness as kids - but that's not how the world goes, even by default.

Anyhow GW isn't going to listen to "na ni na ni na nah I don't like your space marines na in na ni na nah".
They'll listen to what people think is cool.

Richter Kless
17-06-2008, 11:36
And we must also remember that most of the fanbase does love Space Marines, even the īveteransī.

When the new Space Marine codex hits the shelf, you can bet that a huge amount of warseer users will buy it and some nice new models with it.

This whole idea that the fanbase doesnīt want so much Space Marine goodness, is a false one, because we do want it.

The Song of Spears
17-06-2008, 16:17
And we must also remember that most of the fanbase does love Space Marines, even the īveteransī.

When the new Space Marine codex hits the shelf, you can bet that a huge amount of warseer users will buy it and some nice new models with it.

This whole idea that the fanbase doesnīt want so much Space Marine goodness, is a false one, because we do want it.

Are you kidding? The Marines dex is going to be so cool that there will be utterly NO reason to collect chaos anymore.

No really, I am serious. Thanks to "counts as," and pre-heresy fluff and the fact that the chaos dex sucks the big one, my IW just got a better dex via the new imperial one :wtf:

I for one can't wait for the new marines codex.

Richter Kless
17-06-2008, 20:41
Are you kidding? The Marines dex is going to be so cool that there will be utterly NO reason to collect chaos anymore.

No really, I am serious. Thanks to "counts as," and pre-heresy fluff and the fact that the chaos dex sucks the big one, my IW just got a better dex via the new imperial one :wtf:

I for one can't wait for the new marines codex.

You know what, thatīs a pretty frickin brilliant idea.

I was pretty pleased with the new Chaos Codex (īt was my first codex ever), but now that I see what the loyalists are getting, Iīm feeling a little bit īleft outī

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
17-06-2008, 21:32
Are you kidding? The Marines dex is going to be so cool that there will be utterly NO reason to collect chaos anymore.

No really, I am serious. Thanks to "counts as," and pre-heresy fluff and the fact that the chaos dex sucks the big one, my IW just got a better dex via the new imperial one :wtf:

I for one can't wait for the new marines codex.


No ****. After reading the SM rumors I'm considering where my true allegiance lies. Chaos is cool and all, but the new SM codex just sounds much, much better than the current Chaos codex. Which sucks a lot, especially compared to the last one. *Ahem*

Anyway, isn't it true that orks and eldar used to be the most popular races and thus sold the most models? I've only played for a year and a half so I wasn't around, but apparently this was before the space marines became awesome.

Annnnd, I think GW focuses on marines because THEY SELL. And without those sales we wouldn't have new orc codices or purty new possessed models.

The Song of Spears
17-06-2008, 21:33
You know what, thatīs a pretty frickin brilliant idea.

I was pretty pleased with the new Chaos Codex (īt was my first codex ever), but now that I see what the loyalists are getting, Iīm feeling a little bit īleft outī

HA!

And finally the realization of my arguments against the chaos dex come to light.

The chaos dex is functional, and it has mildly chaosy junk in it. But after looking at the Eldar/Orks and now Imperial Marines codexes = the chaos dex sucks bad, real bad.

If GW wanted to cop out with chaos, they should have released a chaos codex with no units, just rules to 'chaosify' other applicable armies.

But just you wait. Everyone will see just how horrible the chaos codex is once the new Imperial Marines dex is out.

- You don't know what you have lost until everyone else has it.

Grand Master Raziel
17-06-2008, 21:46
Oh, please. Codex: Chaos Space Marines is probably the strongest dex in the system right now. It's just not as broken as the 3.5 abomination used to be. Feel free to use any dex you want to in order to play your army, but I seriously doubt your army is going to get any stronger or any Chaosier by using Codex: Space Marines 5.0 than by using Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
17-06-2008, 21:52
Oh, please. Codex: Chaos Space Marines is probably the strongest dex in the system right now. It's just not as broken as the 3.5 abomination used to be. Feel free to use any dex you want to in order to play your army, but I seriously doubt your army is going to get any stronger or any Chaosier by using Codex: Space Marines 5.0 than by using Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Don't be silly. Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, and Tau all have better books. Tau even have an armory, and Nids can still customize their units. Oooooh!

Damien 1427
17-06-2008, 21:57
Feel free to use any dex you want to in order to play your army, but I seriously doubt your army is going to get any stronger or any Chaosier by using Codex: Space Marines 5.0 than by using Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Well, the Loyalist book will probably be about as "Chaotic". What I didn't like about it, and the Daemon book, was that they just felt... unChaotic. They're solid lists and all, but just feel so very, very... soulless? Especially compared to the Ork list, which I think is one of the finest ever produced.

But I think we should cut this line of discussion short. This forum has beat that particular horse to fine powder.

The Song of Spears
17-06-2008, 22:03
Oh, please. Codex: Chaos Space Marines is probably the strongest dex in the system right now. It's just not as broken as the 3.5 abomination used to be. Feel free to use any dex you want to in order to play your army, but I seriously doubt your army is going to get any stronger or any Chaosier by using Codex: Space Marines 5.0 than by using Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Hahahahah!!! :D You have got to be kidding!? You don't actually play 40k do you ;)

Seriously though, for what is supposed to be the most diverse, psychic and chaotic army in the entirety of the game, the chaos dex falls far short of being anything more than marginally effective at using. The new orks dex with custom rules, and the new SM dex that has separate rules for chapters goes to show that people who support the loss of separate legion/cult rules were not vindicated, it goes to show the GW was lazy and decided to save the best effort for SM.

To blame the loss of options on balance is just ridiculous. Especially when GW is adding just that to the SM codex = more options/legion specific rules/ FOC manipulations.

EmperorEternalXIX
17-06-2008, 22:29
I don't really think you can blame the whole "whining issue" on the eldar players. Whining and progress go hand in hand. Actually I find Eldar and Tyranids are the whiniest players I encounter.

All that aside whether you disagree with his assessment of "whining" in general or not, the OP is absolutely right. It seems like almost everyone on this board puts all the heat on the marines for EVERYTHING in the game.

I remember when I first joined up all I heard was assault cannon, assault cannon, assault cannon. I even have a friend who calls it "the donkey cannon" just because he read it here and rarely has even faced an army with more than one or two ACs.

The "infamous" 9 assault cannon army has never even been seen or fielded by anyone I know, be it in my group of friends or at either of the local gaming clubs or tournaments.

The complaints about rending were always directed against SMs even though you have people throwing 40 dice per squad for genestealers like it's going out of style. The argument is genestealers NEED rending, and so it is okay. Why is the rending that you DON'T get a cover save against, and also have to suffer through tons of other hits simultaneously, ok...but the Assault Cannon (which is avoidable due to cover and is always maxed out at 4 shots) needs to desperately be nerfed? The range? Pfft.

While on the subject, aside from rending the Assault Cannon is not mountable on a lot of things. The Eldar routinely field masses of longer range Str6 shots and no one bats an eye. The Necron Destroyer carries a 3-shot Str6 AP4 weapon on a jetbike body with natural T5 and a 3+ save, and no one bats an eye.

The Space Marines, as of right now, have no unit with anything above T4 and for all that griping about the Power Fist instakilling ICs, we are actually the most prominent victims of that currently -- only one character in the DA and BA dexes is immune to instant death, and in the standard SM book the Adamantine Mantle has a 0-1 limit.

The Power Fist Sergeant debate has always been hilarious since it always focuses solely on the SM and never seems to mind that Khornate Aspiring Champion with 5 attacks on the charge at WS5, or that sort of thing.

Of the other armies in the game it's been my experience that Space Marines can field a modest-at-best amount of special weapons and we are the home of some of the most overpriced stuff in the game. The Land Raider costs more than a monolith, does less than a drop pod, and has less firepower than a predator. The land speeder is defensively and speed-wise identical to the Dark Eldar's Raider, but they cost significantly less and do not transport troops or carry any highly valuable Lance or AP2 weapons. A squad of Terminators is 215 points at the cheapest (BA) and never can be above 5 man while Chaos can not only get more of them, cheaper...but they can also give them an Icon and give them insane benefits. A Command Squad/Honor Guard of 5 marines can get as ridiculous as 250 points depending on gear. The Techmarine is pretty much completely and utterly worthless and is almost of no help to fix vehicles either (unless you are will to spend 200ish points on him).

I like the space marines and I feel like they are pretty balanced out in the grand scheme of things. We all know nidzilla and mech eldar are the tops of the lists for competitive play, so I don't know why all of the community has to kid itself into thinking the Space Marines are such giant Imba's...

RevenantX
17-06-2008, 23:07
Actually, a Blood Angel Terminator Squad costs 200pts, and comes with a free Death Company dude. Chaos Terminators are cheaper because they come equipped differently; I'm pretty sure that Chaos Termies have to pay for their Power Fists.

But I agree, most of the lists people were whining about don't ever appear in real games. We have one player and our local store who is a Las/Plas, 2 Asscans a squad kinda guy, and he hasn't won a game in months.

Vaktathi
17-06-2008, 23:14
Oh, please. Codex: Chaos Space Marines is probably the strongest dex in the system right now. It's just not as broken as the 3.5 abomination used to be. Feel free to use any dex you want to in order to play your army, but I seriously doubt your army is going to get any stronger or any Chaosier by using Codex: Space Marines 5.0 than by using Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

I don't believe the Chaos codex is the strongest codex out right now by any means. I think the Ork and Eldar codex's are pretty far ahead of it, and comments about the previous codex aside, I think the new Space Marines codex is going to be far better. Just by taking the Salamanders chapter master for example, all thunder hammers count as mastercrafted, and all meltas, flamers and heavy flamers are TL just by having him in the army (or on the field, I'd have to re-read the page).



Why is the rending that you DON'T get a cover save against, and also have to suffer through tons of other hits simultaneously, ok...but the Assault Cannon (which is avoidable due to cover and is always maxed out at 4 shots) needs to desperately be nerfed? The range? Pfft. It's a ranged anti-infantry weapon is better at killing tanks than a Lascannon, and everything that can take it can move (or Deep Strike!) and shoot with it. Lets face it, removing the jam drawback and adding the extra shot would have been plenty to make it a beast and likely still the most used terminator weapon. Rending was Overkill. Genestealers need to get into close combat and are *expensive* with no ranged attack ability at all and must footslog (albeit quickly) to get to grips with their foe. The Assault cannon is effective against just about everything, even when it shouldn't be.


The Eldar routinely field masses of longer range Str6 shots and no one bats an eye. They don't have rending and don't have AP4 generally, and are usually on BS3 platforms.


The Necron Destroyer carries a 3-shot Str6 AP4 weapon on a jetbike body with natural T5 and a 3+ save, and no one bats an eye. Actually they do, but they also cost 50pts each.


The Power Fist Sergeant debate has always been hilarious since it always focuses solely on the SM and never seems to mind that Khornate Aspiring Champion with 5 attacks on the charge at WS5, or that sort of thing. Can that Khorne squad pack a lascannon *and* a powerfist? That Khorne squad has nothing other than its CC ability. Also, I don't know about you, but I wouldn't take such a unit with a powerfist, its a good waste of I5, with a power weapon it is much more effective against more normal unit s.

That said, I don't think that powerfist sergeants were a big deal, they didn't seem that bad to me.



The land speeder is defensively and speed-wise identical to the Dark Eldar's Raider, but they cost significantly less and do not transport troops or carry any highly valuable Lance or AP2 weapons A rending assault cannon, multimelta, and heavy bolter just don't do it for you?


A squad of Terminators is 215 points at the cheapest (BA) and never can be above 5 man while Chaos can not only get more of them, cheaper...but they can also give them an Icon and give them insane benefits. The Icon bearer can be torrent of fire'd (and 5th Ed will make them less likely to stay around) and the Chaos termi's don't come with powerfists. Once you add in the Powerfist, they are the same cost. In fact, any weapons upgrade brings them up to the cost of their SM equivalents.


The Techmarine is pretty much completely and utterly worthless and is almost of no help to fix vehicles either (unless you are will to spend 200ish points on him). And this is different from equivalent units like the Techpriest how?



so I don't know why all of the community has to kid itself into thinking the Space Marines are such giant Imba's... They *can* be just as bad as those Mech Eldar or Nidzilla if built correctly (6 dev squads, 80 marines, universal Ld10...) but I'll agree for the most part that the majority of marine armies aren't on that level. The big issue at hand is however, the fact that they seemingly take attention and effort away from other armies causing them to be used less often causing them to divert more attention away etc....

lain2k3
17-06-2008, 23:23
2 DP w/Lash are the two most powerful units in 40k right now. Chaos marines get Ld 10, and extra attack, and better wargear options and bigger squad sizes (optional) for one extra point over the cost of a space marine. The current SM codex is very bland, I'm hoping the new one spices things up a bit, but I have no doubt that Chaos will remain a more powerful list.

Vaktathi
17-06-2008, 23:38
2 DP w/Lash are the two most powerful units in 40k right now. I don't think anyone will deny that, they are pretty sillu.


Chaos marines get Ld 10 and extra attack However normal marines get ATSKNF, and will be getting the grenades and BP, as well as the ability to split into smaller units so one can sit in the back with a heavy weapon while the powerfist and flamer advance. A fair trade off I would say.


and better wargear Such as?


and bigger squad sizes (optional) for one extra point over the cost of a space marine. Actually they cost the same now (unless SM's are going down to 14pts?) but I have yet to see a CSM squad taken that was larger than 10, although I may give it a try here soon.


The current SM codex is very bland Ask the Chaos players what they think of the current codex in terms of "blandness" compared with the SM codex (not necessarily power) and I think you'll see things differently :p


I'm hoping the new one spices things up a bit How so? What exactly is so bland about the SM list as is, especially with all those traits?


but I have no doubt that Chaos will remain a more powerful list.
Looking at the leaks and rumors, I think you will be very surprised, the new SM's look to be absolutely fearsome.

The_Outsider
17-06-2008, 23:45
I don't blames marines, peronally I blame tau.

lain2k3
17-06-2008, 23:47
My better wargear options statement was regarding the different marks of the various gods. They basically have the same options as DA/BA veteran Sergeants and then some.

The Larger unit size will benefit Chaos in 5th, especially for those who think Kill Points is a sign of the apocalypse as some people do on this forum.

I suppose I do see the CSM codex as more interesting just because I haven't been using it for 4-5 years now. Ive tried all the traits and all that, and when it comes down to it, everything in the book is just a space marine with extra wounds or infiltrate.

The only things I think will really change the power level of marines will be Combat tactics (which you won't be able to use if you take a special character) and the sternguard veterans. Those guys are disgusting. (And will probably cost 30 points each, too) The land raider Redeemer has the potential to absolutely broken, but GW has done a good job keeping marines in the "easy to use, hard to abuse" category.

Richter Kless
18-06-2008, 00:21
HA!

And finally the realization of my arguments against the chaos dex come to light.

The chaos dex is functional, and it has mildly chaosy junk in it. But after looking at the Eldar/Orks and now Imperial Marines codexes = the chaos dex sucks bad, real bad.

If GW wanted to cop out with chaos, they should have released a chaos codex with no units, just rules to 'chaosify' other applicable armies.

But just you wait. Everyone will see just how horrible the chaos codex is once the new Imperial Marines dex is out.

- You don't know what you have lost until everyone else has it.

Guess Iīll start praying for the Legion Codex, if it ever comes out.

Please GW (or ForgeWorld for that matter), for the love of Khorne and all that is unholy, give us the Traitor Legions. They are Space Marines too. Arenīt they just as awesome as regular Marines?

AllisterCaine
18-06-2008, 07:34
I understand completely and yes those people should shut up, but the only way you can get those people to shut up is not to pay them any attention. Now they have the perfect opportunity to express their views and whine.

Royal Tiger
18-06-2008, 12:47
I like this, when the new Chaos Codex came out a large majority of people whinned that it felt more like Codex space marines....with spikes, and NOW people actually do want to use Codex space marines.....with spikes

theres just no pleasing some people

Richter Kless
18-06-2008, 14:42
I like this, when the new Chaos Codex came out a large majority of people whinned that it felt more like Codex space marines....with spikes, and NOW people actually do want to use Codex space marines.....with spikes

theres just no pleasing some people

Thatīt not the point. The point is that the Loyalists are getting what the Traitors lost.

The Space Marine codex is going to be his huge tome, filled with variant lists, FoC changes and plenty of character.
The Chaos Space Marine codex has none of this and thatīs frustrates everyone.

Dropsik
18-06-2008, 16:01
well i used this forum mainly for information about rumors so i didnt post here anything yet, but this topic struck me badly.
we should realise that whole 40k fluff, base, history and indeed whole universe is based on space marines. its based on their wars, their evolution, their conquest etc. each other army plays only one role - adversary. so, yes, i would be glad if my marines where overpowered.
i bet i can show you two disadvantages of any unit or wepon in codex sm. compared to any other codex.
you say we have ATSKNF? well why we dont have well be back? or imune to instant kill rule like demons or nids?
you say we have the advantage of spliting in two squads: one with flamer and fist, while the other is sitting back and enjoying his heavy weapon?
well its quite expensive, because you have to take two squads instead of one. you could used the points from squad with fist and flamer (obviously you meant rhino transported) for some other juicy unit. oh, and did i tell its very expensive?
you said the chaos players are disapointed of their codex and thats true. without legions chaos is incomplete and i think it wil be repaired. remember that chaos is one of the three main adversaries in 40k (other are orks and nids) and they always had the very best stuff, units and rules. they will be back.
traits were something that was painful but necessary. when you were scribing your roster for a tournament game you tried to take as much anti marine stuff as possible. now its more balanced. many chapters died because of traits (raven guard, salamanders, white scars), but for my opinion it was necessary, there were too many marines. in my opinion traits werent the option to make your marines even more overpowered but it was a icing on the cake for those who lost theirs chapters. with the 5 ed. codex and the dissaperance of traits: they will be only chapter of legends.
the BA codex was a downgrade. look at the DA full codex and compare. some petty fluff section, few pictures and army list. wheres the fluff? wheres the painting section? wheres the eavy metal showcase? wheres tactics?
sorry for my englisch, i hope you did understand what i was wrote.