PDA

View Full Version : problem with balanced empire vs demons



PeG
15-06-2008, 13:09
I am looking at a few games with empire against among others demons and am looking for any advice on how to handle them with a balanced empire list.

It seems like a list with several warmachines, cannons and maybe a hellblaster together with pistoliers and some other shooting units would do rather ok but my opponents usually have strong opinions about fielding this type of list. I guess it would be fine against demons and maybe also against vampires but less fun against other armies.

Also bringing large units to avoid outnumber and autobreak seems like it might be a good ide but winning by static CR will probably fail due to that demons will generate a lot of CR from kills.

Any suggestions for how to deal with the demons? A single thirster can rip my entire army appart if I dont shoot it and challenging it with the speculum is not that easy since he can fly. They also carry a lot of dispel dice so magic doesnt seem like a good option.

theunwantedbeing
15-06-2008, 13:15
Take your normal army.
Artillery firing at the greater daemons/bloodcrushers and such.

Handguns will mow down bloodcrushers with relative ease.
Fully ranked unit's with support charges from detachments will wreck daemons.

Throw in a couple of warrior priests and some unit's will get hatred (great on things like knights) which mean's you will even more easily shred his troops.

Only plaguebearer's are particularly difficult to shift but even they wont last that long when being flanked and rear charged by fully ranked unit's.

A balanced empire army should have little trouble with most daemonic lists.

Lexmechanic
26-06-2008, 01:16
Lore of Light is quite nice against daemons.
Spells 1 , 4 , 5 and 6 are particularly useful and relatively easy to cast.
with good positioning ( steed of shadows perhaps ) you could potentially flare all his units in the whole army with d6 str 6, even in close combat.

IŽd take 2-3 warmachines, preferably cannons, to take down any greater demons and other nasty buggers. Tarpit-units like unbreakable flagellants followed by a flank charge by vanilla knights could be useful. Also demons stuck in flagellants are left vulnerable to further cleansing flares.

Fight fire with fire. They take a big nastie, you take one. Steam roll them down with a tank. Just mind the greater demon bashing it open.

Marwynn
26-06-2008, 04:52
I suggest going for Crossbows instead of Handguns. The extra 6" will count for much more, especially since the majority of the units you face won't have armour saves. And really, even if they do have AS the extra 6" can account for a turn of extra shooting.

Take Helstorms and 2 Great Cannon. You can flatten an undead block with every shot or even destroy most of the Daemon core units with a Helstorm.

Don't be too sure about the CR issue, if you can negate his rank bonus (if any) and if you rely on solid troops (Swordsmen, Great Swords and a core unit of Flagellants) you should do fine. Remember the Icon of Magnus on your Warrior Priest with the Great Swords.

Oh, and try out the Griffon Banner on your BSB.

minionboy
26-06-2008, 06:28
I suggest going for Crossbows instead of Handguns. The extra 6" will count for much more, especially since the majority of the units you face won't have armour saves. And really, even if they do have AS the extra 6" can account for a turn of extra shooting.

Take Helstorms and 2 Great Cannon. You can flatten an undead block with every shot or even destroy most of the Daemon core units with a Helstorm.

Don't be too sure about the CR issue, if you can negate his rank bonus (if any) and if you rely on solid troops (Swordsmen, Great Swords and a core unit of Flagellants) you should do fine. Remember the Icon of Magnus on your Warrior Priest with the Great Swords.

Oh, and try out the Griffon Banner on your BSB.

Okay, I play empire and I think this guy got confused about Daemons. The extra 6" is nice, but not needed against armies that will be advancing at you full speed... like daemons. You're far better off with the Str 4, also you should give your marksman champions hochlands or the grenade launchers.

Helstorms aren't a great idea for a couple reasons. First, the enemy is on large bases, so less fit under the template, second, daemons run smaller armies, so if you don't hit, you're still unlikely to scatter onto anything. Get 2 Helblasters, don't bother with a Stank.

Greatswords are like handing the enemy points, bloodletters will walk through them without noticing. Get Swordsmen, they are just as difficult to kill and way cheaper. I'd recommend units of 25 with detachments of 9 halberdiers.

I usually say don't bother with mages, if you're fighting against mono-khorne they'll take the banner which prevents you from casting Lore of Light (1,2,3 = miscast) as well as one other lore having -3 to casting; if not mono-khorne, they may still take the banner and also have their own casters to lock you down. Instead, take a few Warrior Priests and be sure to get someone with the Speculum for dealing with greater daemons.

just my 2 cents.

Vandur Last
26-06-2008, 06:39
[QUOTE=Lexmechanic;2730064]Lore of Light is quite nice against daemons.
Spells 1 , 4 , 5 and 6 are particularly useful and relatively easy to cast.
with good positioning ( steed of shadows perhaps ) you could potentially flare all his units in the whole army with d6 str 6, even in close combat.
[QUOTE]


For added nastyness cast Hammer of Sigmar on the caster of your Light spells.

You could end up with every Deamon within 12" suffering D6 S6 hits, with a re-roll of any failed wound rolls. Plus re-rolls on magic missiles.

After the first time youll find that your Priests spells will draw out a few more dispel dice than they used to:p

Embalmed
26-06-2008, 07:05
Okay, I play empire and I think this guy got confused about Daemons. The extra 6" is nice, but not needed against armies that will be advancing at you full speed... like daemons. You're far better off with the Str 4, also you should give your marksman champions hochlands or the grenade launchers.


I would still go with crossbows, the only difference is Handguns have AP and crossbows have +6" range and even though the daemon player will be closing in you'll probably get to fire at close range more with crossbows.

Yeah helblaster will be good vs his fast flakers (Bloodhounds, seekers and Fiends).

It really depends on what type of list he plays though, daemons can play very differently a Tzeench list requires very different lists to defeat compared to a Khorne one.

Marwynn
26-06-2008, 07:15
Okay, I play empire and I think this guy got confused about Daemons. The extra 6" is nice, but not needed against armies that will be advancing at you full speed... like daemons. You're far better off with the Str 4, also you should give your marksman champions hochlands or the grenade launchers.


It's not so much the 6" range as the extra 3" short range. The entire list isn't made up of Bloodlettersl Horrors, Furies and so on are all good targets. I value the extra 6" on my S3 longbows when facing daemons. I have no idea what use you'll find for handgunners in most lists unless you face a lot of Bloodcrushers.

You do know that Crossbows are S4 right?


Helstorms aren't a great idea for a couple reasons. First, the enemy is on large bases, so less fit under the template, second, daemons run smaller armies, so if you don't hit, you're still unlikely to scatter onto anything. Get 2 Helblasters, don't bother with a Stank.

S5 vs T3 mainly. And the fact that they run smaller armies, smaller than HEs even, means that each wound counts for more. And you don't have to worry about their range to your warmachine per se.

Go with the warmachine you feel like using the most. I prefer the Helstorms.

You'll appreciate it against say Horrors. I know they're 25mm x 25mm, but it's easier to land a shot on them than to get the Helblaster in range.



Greatswords are like handing the enemy points, bloodletters will walk through them without noticing. Get Swordsmen, they are just as difficult to kill and way cheaper. I'd recommend units of 25 with detachments of 9 halberdiers.

It's the Stubborn that I like. I am not advocating nothing but GS's, but a solid unit of 20 can hold. Take it as you will.



I usually say don't bother with mages, if you're fighting against mono-khorne they'll take the banner which prevents you from casting Lore of Light (1,2,3 = miscast) as well as one other lore having -3 to casting; if not mono-khorne, they may still take the banner and also have their own casters to lock you down. Instead, take a few Warrior Priests and be sure to get someone with the Speculum for dealing with greater daemons.

just my 2 cents.

Oh and there's a debate about the VHS right now, about whether certain Gifts count as being swapped and so on. Just be prepared for some confusion.

sulla
26-06-2008, 08:07
The unwantedbeing's advise is most like what I would say to you. Furthermore, I would prioritise my shooting/magic vs the greater daemons and special/rare choices first. Daemon core infantry is not very good without a herald and even with a herald, it will struggle to make 'it's points back' unless you feed it good value like mages etc. Take the uber plaguebeared + herald tarpit unit... you could tarpit the tarpit with your own much cheaper unit of flaggelants while smashing lower toughness daemon core with a priest and his knights...

Frankly
26-06-2008, 10:35
Marwynn, I think your right on the money.

Crossbow units at the very least lets you shoot first turn. Against L.Armoured or no armour at all, their range makes them the clear winners over H.gunners.

The only reason why I take H.Gunners is for the H.Rifle upgrade. H.Rifles in mass amounts + cannons sniping mage characters is my way of dealing with magic users, but thats the only reason I'd take guns over Xbows.

Again Helstorms have the ability to deal with hordes at range, its a solid standard choice against most opponents and espciels good at dealing with fear causing unit to sap away any outnumbers and/or rank and file advantages.

Sulla's got the right idea as well, shot at his speed first and then his support. Because, points for points empires have some (... if not the best )valued infantry units points can buy, work on your basic unit + detachment tactics and you'll have the advantages before you get into combat.

logan054
26-06-2008, 12:50
I dont think i would suggest lore of light unless you know the daemon player hasnt got the great standard of sundering, to be honest a balanced empire list should be fine against daemons, remember you will have a heavy numbers bonus against them, only real issue will be fear against detachments.

I guess of your really bothered by things like a bloodthirster then van horstmens speculum is great idea, combine that with a wizard lore of fire or arch lector and your well away.

Marwynn
26-06-2008, 16:08
Well the choice is either the Great Standard of Sundering, which is a sheer pain, or that -2 Ld one that I keep forgetting the name of.

I'd figure most Daemon players would find room for that instead of the off chance that they'll face a magically inclined army. And again, yay Stubborn and Unbreakable Empire troops.

ZeroTwentythree
26-06-2008, 16:23
I'm not sure greatswords are a waste either, largely because of the stubborn as well. Also, saying that the bloodletters will walk all over them is fine, but I'm not certain it's guaranteed that they will always be fighting bloodletters.

Rather than the grenade launcher or HLR, I'd probably just spend the points on more handgunners/crossbow or artillery or something else. By the time you upgrade the champ and buy his weapon, I don't think it's worth it. Take a good look at the points and what they will actually do. :/

logan054
26-06-2008, 16:33
sorry but most daemon units will walk all over them, has to be said that stubborn is all well and good until your numbers start to drop, maybe a warrior priest will protect them? erm, doubt it, i used to pick them off with chaos warriors, a bloodletter is going to have easy time taking him out before the great swords strike.

minionboy
26-06-2008, 17:48
Wow, logan054 and I agreeing on something, I never thought I'd have seen the day!

Frankly though, Bloodletters would wreck Greatswords, Daemonettes would wreck them and Plague Bearers would be too tough to cut through.

Having Handgunners is going to give you a bigger edge over khorne (which seems to be the flavor of the month), plus the Grenade Launcher can reliably put a wound on the BT, which can't be said for xbows. I guess xbow vs handgun comes down to your personal preference, but that's nothing new for Empire.

When it comes to magic, unless you know you're facing a magic strong army, I say that using Warrior Priests for characters would probably be much more effective than mages. The only advantage you'd have with mages are dispel scrolls, but they may not be needed as much against non-tzeentch armies.

Helstorms are just too inaccurate to use against non-horde armies, a Helblaster is still S5, plus the -3 armor which will be nice against those heavily armored BT's and Juggers.

_Lucian_
26-06-2008, 19:13
I can swear by my GS, the key to beating deamons with a standard empire army isnt expecting to win 1v1 fights. GS are the only unit (~bar frenzied flagellants who are far from reliable) capable of holding up even blood crushers at a unit size below 10, (with the all important armour of meteroic and icon of magnus char in it). At 10 points a pop they are cheap as chips (my other armies are all elven or damn expensive MSU) and have a respectable 4+, which means they can hold out for those 2 turns till the detachments or knights turn up..... Dont knock the GS, they dont kill things.... but they dont run away... (well less often)

Marwynn
26-06-2008, 19:47
Helstorms are always inaccurate. The point isn't their scatter, the problem is convincing your opponent to come within 24" of your Helblaster without having done something about it first. Oh like I dunno, Furies? I know, being ensconced in your line it'll be tough to not be in range.

This all boils down to preference in Shooters and Warmachines, a classic Empire debate. I prefer Helstorms above Helblasters and Crossbows over Handgunners though I still take Handgunners when I have the points to do so.

If the Daemon lists you face are Khornate then by all means go with the Helblaster units and Handgunners and put holes into those Bloodcrushers and Bloodletters. I plonk down S5 pie-plates against Horrors, Flamers, and Plaguebearers and I have an easier time deploying as I only need LoS and not the actual range.

superduperkoopatrooper
26-06-2008, 19:54
My advice would be to perhaps use some detachments to get in the way of the daemon infantry advance. If they've taken a super unit with herald and assuming they're maybe bloodletters or bearers, they won't reach you until turn three, then you just angle a mini unit of halberdiers or archers away from your main line and they'll be totally stuck without support. Remember any khorne units with hatred have to pursue or overrun against anything.

On the crossbow vs handgunner debate - I always take crossbows over handguns. I leave armour piercing attacks to pistoliers and outriders.

Not sure a tank will be all that great as everything has a ward against its hits. Also tzeentch magic and khorne heroes will hurt it a lot.

Lastly, from my limited experience, any daemon unit of remotely reasonable size will last at least a couple of rounds in combat even if losing badly. So don't commit pricey units like knights until you absolutely have to as they'll get stuck against most things. Hold up their expensive tarpits with cheap things and kill off the support with the rest of your army. Then throw everything at the surviving blocks. In an ideal world :)

_Lucian_
26-06-2008, 20:00
Word of caution dont use archers to deflect as they are skirmishers so rank upto the charger, defeating the entire purpose.

minionboy
26-06-2008, 20:17
If you're using GS with a character to hold up enemies for your knights, it seems silly to spend 10 points per model when you can spend 6 on swordsmen and get the job done just as well. Since you can afford to rank up swordsmen, they'll be cheaper with typically higher combat res (ranks and outnumber).

I don't think that Daemons are an army you'll have a hard time convincing to come within 24" of your Helblasters since they're typically a VERY combat oriented army, plus even tzeentch spells are 24" range (iirc), so no matter what god you're facing, they will be closing that 24" gap with you.

_Lucian_
26-06-2008, 20:29
Ah yes, but you can expect swordsmen to crumble as easily as GS to blood crushers, losing combat by 2-5 CR, reducing a LD9 to 4-7. Stubborn is worth its weight in gold for a static CR army like empire

Frankly
26-06-2008, 20:33
sorry but most daemon units will walk all over them, has to be said that stubborn is all well and good until your numbers start to drop, maybe a warrior priest will protect them? erm, doubt it, i used to pick them off with chaos warriors, a bloodletter is going to have easy time taking him out before the great swords strike.

I think your missing the point of taking GS's, they're a tarpit, they're there so players like you WILL charge into them with your Blood thirster ... if the great cannons and ranged attacks fail.

GS's are perfect for soaking up that unit that will/can support charge your battle line and ruin your day.

So what if GS's unit numbers drop ... cool ... just as long as I get to hold up that heavy hitting enemy unit long even to have a nil effect on the rest of the game. If my GS's can this do for my armylist, they've done their job.

logan054
26-06-2008, 21:25
why would you charge a stubborn unit with a bloodthirster? its never going to kill enough in a single round by itself to actually get outnumber, that bloodthirster is going to be using its terror on your handguns/cannons or taking out those steam tanks.

GS are great at soaking up things that dont cause fear and thus cause the stubborn to be pretty useless, also blood crushers vs GS? why would you charge GS with bloodcrushers in the first place? dont know about you but i would rather either charge them with flesh hounds, slaanesh stuff or beasts of nurgle. even if a unit of bloodcrushers did charge them what if it has a herald? thats 6 strength 6, 8 strength 5 plus the heralds 3, all with hatred, as i said, i doubt anyone would waste bloodcrushers on greatswords, i think empire knights or characters are a more tempting target with all those KB attacks.

GS are great, just not against this army.