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lanrak
15-06-2008, 18:18
Hi.
@Harry.
'I chatted about all kinds of stuff to all kinds of people and the one thing we all agreed on is there are a whole lot of folks out there who seem to assume that if GW are not doing it exactly the way that they would do it (if they were ... sculpting it / marketting it / writting it, in charge of it, etc, etc) then GW is wrong because they must be right.'

So in your, and thier oppinoin ,GW were right to NOT issue any FAQs for the Ork Codex , that was released 4 years after 4th ed made the 3rd ed codex praticaly unusable?(How many years between codexs?)

And obviously the gamers on the Dakka forums were WRONG to post up a list of FAQs for this new error riden codex.

And lets face it a multimillion pound multinational company would never just 'nick' a fan based solution of a popular website.
Because they are far too 'great' to 'stoop' to taking information from 'lowly' gamers ...

Except when the gamers embarrace GW by doing thier game support for them perhaps?

I love the asthetics of the GW products.But the 40k rules sets , codexes, game play and game suport are just sub par. Compared to similar products.

The studio staff are human , they make mistakes .So why not just admit it and put them right in a timely fashion?
(Like they used to do.)

Art is subjective , there is no wrong way!Just differing oppinions.

Instructions (rules) are objective , there ARE wrong ways of writing them .

When developers think rules are 'artistic interpritations' rather than finite instructions .

Some gamers may object, objectivley!:D

TTFN
Lanrak.

Harry
15-06-2008, 20:02
Sorry mate I haven't got any more for you than I had on the other thread...

"The games designers/developers try and write the best rules and background they can to try and ensure that the work that gets done is as good as it can be.

Not because they care about a return for the share holders but because they care. Period.

The same is true of all the artists, sculptors, writers, hobby team, etc.

If anyone thinks there are bigger critics on this site or amongst the GW management than exist in the studio itself they are wrong.

As with most creative people they remain the biggest critics of their own work".

Do they make mistakes? ... Yes.
Are some of them 'howlers'? ... Yes.
Should they be picked up by a proof reader, sombody, anybody? Hell, yes!!!
Should they do something about it when it happens? ... Yes.
Are they? Yes, as it happens, they are doing the FAQ's

Is any of this spoiling my enjoyment of the hobby? Nope. It really isn't. I'm sorry but it isn't.

I just work out what they meant to say :D and crack on playing games and painting toy soldiers. (Just like I always did).

lanrak
15-06-2008, 20:54
Hi Harry.
You are obviously more tolerant of the mistakes in the GW games related publications than I am.

The way I assemble my models and paint them is up to me, and to eveyrone else .
The only justification of a craft hobby is the desire to create.
And the GW studio artists are a pure inspiration!(Yes they are bloody brilliant IMO.)

But if my interpritation of a rule is differnt to others...it means we waste time trying to resovle the issue.
It has been known for up to 8 interpitations of the same GW written rule to be argued at lenght...:rolleyes:

This is a preventable waste of gaming time!
So it is detrimental to the gameing part of the hobby.

Why is it other companies can produce well defined and intuative rule sets striaght off?

And GW is still bumbeling and bodgeing thier CORE games 20+ years later.

And only post FAQs on GWs web site AFTER fan based web sites do a grand job of sorting out the mess.

Game development is VERY difficult. I understand that.
Thats why we pay people to do this hard work for us.
So as we pay good money for these books , dont you think we deserve better quality?

And given the oportunity , you asked them. And thier responce to a valid question was 'everyone a critic'?

No offence meant to you, but that sounds like the GW staff just 'blowing smoke .....' as they say...

Art Is Resistance
15-06-2008, 21:00
So,

YET ANOTHER thread hijacked by the GW hate mob! This was a nice thread to say what a good day some of us had - why ruin it with yet more bile?

Oh, I forgot - this is the internet.

lanrak
15-06-2008, 21:16
Hi.
Just to be clear I DO NOT HATE GW.
I just object to GW publishing games related books with such lack luster quality.

And the fact that if any one asks them why the dont try to improve tha clarity , definition.
They are told 'we do our best, but we can not please everyone.'

Well why not get some one to proof read, 'blind test ' etc.
Then at least the HOWLINGLY obvious mistakes would not jump out the page at you , 10 minutes after paying for the book!

Which can annoy some customers, surprisingly:eek:.

If every model you bought from GW was 'miscast' and you kept exchanging them, and paying each time for the priveledge, with NO dicernable inmprovment .
How long before you got fed up!

Thats how annoying poor rules are to gamers, just as bad as 'miscasts' are to a painter.(Yes you can Green stuff and re sculpt your self , but why should you!)

If some gamers have a valid objective complaint about the quality of the game rules /support .Why not accept that GW have a problem , and that ignoring it doesnt help any one.

I did say the GW staff artists were inspiring and 'bloody brilliant.'

Hardly 'GW hating' is it?

Harry
15-06-2008, 21:50
@lanrak
I don't know what you want me to say. Nor do I know why everytime I post someone seems to pick a fight with me.

Nothing you have to say has anything to do with this thread.

I am sorry your not happy. If the rules bother you this much ... if other rules sets are so much better ... I guess you just go play those games ...

Me, I teach children with emotional and behavioural difficulties who have been physically and sometimes sexually abused. I just can't get that upset about a spelling mistake or a poorly written rule. I can't. It just doesn't matter to me.

Given that it certainly does not spoil my enjoyment of the hobby.

This is just something I do for a hobby ... you know ... to relax ... for fun.

So how about you leave me to be happy, I'll leave you to be unhappy.
Go start your own thread about being unhappy and I'll stay here being happy.

This was a good day for Games Workshop.
Thats all this thread is about.

lanrak
15-06-2008, 22:18
Hi Harry.
No I dont want to pick a fight with anyone.
Yes I do currently prefer to play other games than GWs 40k/WH.

And I AM glad you had a nice day at GW towers, I realy am.

And the artists that work for GW are very gifted.IMO.

But I have to work hard for my money as do others.And when people pay good money for rules and codexes they may expect better quality than GW currently publish.

So pointing out the quality problems with the 40k rule set/ game play, and hopeful of having them adressed, doesnt make people unresonable GW haters, does it?

Ignoring problems doesnt make them go away, it just perpetuates them.

So ,I shall wish you well ,leave you happy with GWs current offerings.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-06-2008, 22:34
Hi Harry.
No I dont want to pick a fight with anyone.
Yes I do currently prefer to play other games than GWs 40k/WH.

And I AM glad you had a nice day at GW towers, I realy am.

And the artists that work for GW are very gifted.IMO.

But I have to work hard for my money as do others.And when people pay good money for rules and codexes they may expect better quality than GW currently publish.

So pointing out the quality problems with the 40k rule set/ game play, and hopeful of having them adressed, doesnt make people unresonable GW haters, does it?

Ignoring problems doesnt make them go away, it just perpetuates them.

So ,I shall wish you well ,leave you happy with GWs current offerings.

TTFN
Lanrak.

I ldon't mean to be rude, but perhaps the reason people didn't ask about the topics you mentioned is that the attendees simply don't perceieve the problems to be as drastic as you feel?

Also you do sometimes come across as actively seeking fault in GW and its products.

Harry
15-06-2008, 22:52
So pointing out the quality problems with the 40k rule set/ game play, and hopeful of having them adressed, doesnt make people unresonable GW haters, does it?
I didn't call you anything.

Pointing out problems isn't unreasonable. Pointing it out repeatedly in a thread which has nothing to do with it is a little bit unreasonable I think. If you need to get this stuff off your chest it miigh be more friendly to start your own threads.

If you REALLY want to get it addressed why not try writting to the games developers at GW (instead of directing it at me! :D)

lanrak
15-06-2008, 23:08
Hi MDG.
I have only critisised some of GW PLC buisness decisions.(Which appear to have alienated some customers .)
And I have tried to objectily critique the methods that GW use to develop thier games of 40k and WH.

I am a gamer first and foremost.
When GW made it obvious thier rules were just a starting point - frame of reference, then we as gamers were happy to be creative and have fun.(RT -3rd ed WH.)One rules book , ( with all thier lists as a starting point )and that it, matey , go be creative.:D

But NOT when GW infer/ imply they are fully functional wargames suitable for ballanced competative play.
And then write lots of seperate composition lists to a marketing deadline, with marketing requirment put before game play requirments.
(And promoting tournaments for crying out loud.)

Its this shift in corperate marketing style, that I object to.
Not the studio staff , or the stores staff etc.

Perhaps because I have seen how well defined rules can be,(from other sources,) GWs efforts seem worse to me than other folks on this forum?

Harry,
I apologise it was 'Art is Resistance', that accused me of being a GW hater.I was merey trying to defend my POV.

Sorry if I derailed this thread, but the quality of GW games, and the suport there of , could be concidered an important subject to raise in the GW games development studio?And as it was an open day with any gamers going that wanted to? I thought some gamers may have asked some questions about this subject.

Any way,
Have fun
TTFN
Lanrak.

ThousandPlateaus
15-06-2008, 23:13
I am sorry you're not happy. If the rules bother you this much ... if other rules sets are so much better ... I guess you just go play those games ...

This is just something I do for a hobby ... you know ... to relax ... for fun.

So how about you leave me to be happy, I'll leave you to be unhappy.
Go start your own thread about being unhappy and I'll stay here being happy.


Permission to sig, please, Harry!

kroq'gar
16-06-2008, 04:37
Those of you who attended, i'm guessing they were tightlipped about upcoming releases?


Lanrak. Those errors in GW have always been there- i remember the first set of rules i got for christmas when i was ten. The bestiary book had only half the pages it was suppost to, and those it did have were all printed twice. one of my first models, a Kroxigor, came without an arm. Typo's and misspellings were throughout WD and other GW texts. As for vague, or easy to misenterprate rules- those are as much a part of this hobby as orcs.

The games are for fun. You were once upon a time meant to play with friends, and agree on how to intepret the rules (adding a little control the game mechanism that to be honest miss). I had fun attempting my first conversion and had a very unique book GW were only too happy to swap.

All i know is its been over a decade, and although i still enjoy the game every bit as much, the constant bashing of anything GW release has shifted them towards spoonfeeding every bit of information.

Nazguire
16-06-2008, 05:30
Whine whine, whinge whinge, complain complain. That's all I see on Other GW Discussion these days. I come onto a thread started by Harry to talk about the good time he had at this Open Studio Day and posters with nothing better to do post off-topic about GW and their faults.

I always like to take a look at these posters when they go on about how wrong GW is sometimes. Because if they applied their logic of 'I'm right, ergo, GW is wrong' to all the worlds problems, poverty wouldn't be a problem.

/rant off.


Glad you had a good day Harry, it's good to know that the Games Development/Sculptors/painters etc still have a great love for their job/hobby :)

Harry
16-06-2008, 07:19
I have been thinking about this over night.

There's this Docter, a surgeon, he's one of the best at what he does, he saves hundreds of lives. One day he makes a mistake and sombody dies. Do I want to see him binned, slagged off in the press? Did he want it to happen? Did he do it on purpose? Was he doing his best to save that person? Has he learned from his mistake to avoid making the same mistakes again? Do I want him there, doing what he does, saving lives?

I think you know where I am going with this. :D

Do the writers try and get it wrong on purpose? Were they doing their best to get it right? Will they try and avoid the same mistakes again? Do I want to see them binned? taken out back for a good kickin? Slagged off on the internet?

You get my point?

Along side the 'veteran' studio staff are a lot of young guys. Young but very talented guys. They don't arrive fully formed. They have to learn their craft. It simply isnt possible for the experienced guys to write everything any more than it is possible for Jes to sculpt everything. They have to let the new guys 'give it a bash' sometime. I think given their starting point of some of these guys and the how steep the learning curve seems to be things look pretty good for the future.

You may have gathered, I am not a tournament player, never really understood the drive for balance. (I was very happy being creative back with 2nd edition 40K and 3rd edition fantasy) But theres a whole bunch of people who enjoy competative play. GW are merely trying to meet that need with balanced rules. Should they not try and produce fully functional wargames suitable for competative play? That has to be their goal. (Those of us not interested in balance can still bend the rules all out of shape to have fun). But I imagine that balance is considerably more difficult to achieve when you have 15 fantasy armies and when they are constrained by everything that has gone before which they must retain to avoid upsetting/ailienating existing players. If you stack all the army books on top of the rule book it is a lot fatter than any other set of rules currently available. I imagine trying to achieve balance etc is a bit more tricky than with other 'slimmer' systems. I imagine it would be a lot easier to start from scratch and write a new wargame than it is to write a revised version with so much in place already.

I guess I am saying it is a difficult thing they do and it is easy to sling abuse from the cheap seats. I think folks should "Walk a mile in another mans moccasins" before being so critical.
It's OK to be disappointed, even upset, to question how some things get missed but how that translates into so much venom towards Games Workshop and individual writers / scultors / etc. on this forum is quite beyond me.


Permission to sig, please, Harry!
Don't think you need my permission but ... knock yourself out.


Those of you who attended, i'm guessing they were tightlipped about upcoming releases?
As always they were talking freely about stuff within the next three months and hinting at what is to come in the next six months but very little beyond that. I was quite suprised to see the kroxigor in the cabinet as he is a bit futher away but I guess they like to throw things like that in there evry once in a while just for the fun of it.

I am confident I could have squeezed a whole bunch of rumours out of people but to be honest it just wasn't that sort of day. When you get such unbridled access to these guys it seems a bit 'naff' to stand there and pump them for rumours. It was just nice to chat about the hobby and the design process and to talk to them about their work.

One of the biggest treats for me was meeting Kev Adams there (who had popped in to chat to his old mates). I got to sit their and watch him sculpt a goblin. How cool is that. I got to chat with John Blanche and look through his sketch books. I got to sit and paint and have a play with the new inks with Razza and the other eavy metal guys. I got to a proper look at the wonderful models of Dave Andrews and the rest of the hobby team. I got to play some fun games. TBH there was just not enough time in the day for rumours. I could have done any of the above for hours and not got bored.

It was just a great, old fashioned, hobby day.

Halelel
16-06-2008, 07:35
Very well written Harry, I agree completely!

There's more to this hobby than tournaments, rumors, and what not.

These people are......people, they make mistakes, they enjoy chatting with enthusiasts, sitting down for a drink or two, etc. etc.

Although I want to secretly sneak into their studios at night one day and post some of my ideas on their "idea board". We'd have some pretty crazy fantasy armies developed, haha.

Whitehorn
16-06-2008, 08:12
But if my interpritation of a rule is differnt to others...it means we waste time trying to resovle the issue.
It has been known for up to 8 interpitations of the same GW written rule to be argued at lenght...:rolleyes:

This is a preventable waste of gaming time!
So it is detrimental to the gameing part of the hobby.

This is hilarious. You know its a game right?

I just don't understand how people can get their knickers in such a twist.

They even state if in doubt, roll a bloody D6 and continue having fun. You're only a victim of rule lawyering if you let yourself. Make a call, continue playing, worry about the actual rule later (or not at all!).

Klam
16-06-2008, 09:06
"They even state if in doubt, roll a bloody D6 and continue having fun. You're only a victim of rule lawyering if you let yourself. Make a call, continue playing, worry about the actual rule later (or not at all!)."

Made my day actually but some players tend to forget it :)

Templar Ben
16-06-2008, 11:43
There's this Docter, a surgeon, he's one of the best at what he does, he saves hundreds of lives. One day he makes a mistake and sombody dies. Do I want to see him binned, slagged off in the press? Did he want it to happen? Did he do it on purpose? Was he doing his best to save that person? Has he learned from his mistake to avoid making the same mistakes again? Do I want him there, doing what he does, saving lives?

I think you know where I am going with this. :D

Do the writers try and get it wrong on purpose? Were they doing their best to get it right? Will they try and avoid the same mistakes again? Do I want to see them binned? taken out back for a good kickin? Slagged off on the internet?

You get my point?

To make your analogy more correct, what if the surgeon decided that there was more money to be made on patient A and didn't really address patient B for years knowing there were very clear problems? The entire nursing staff told him the problems were there and they saw them everyday and even had some ideas on how to fix them but wanted to have the expert do it.

This is not a case where the developers get 100's of things right and one small thing slips through. This is a case more often where you have a computer program 90% working since we are talking about logic systems.


Along side the 'veteran' studio staff are a lot of young guys. Young but very talented guys. They don't arrive fully formed. They have to learn their craft. It simply isnt possible for the experienced guys to write everything any more than it is possible for Jes to sculpt everything. They have to let the new guys 'give it a bash' sometime. I think given their starting point of some of these guys and the how steep the learning curve seems to be things look pretty good for the future.

To use your earlier scenario, would the surgeon take an intern and hand him the scalpel and just walk away? Are these new guys coming in with training in logic and math theory? If so the learning curve should not be that steep, after all it isn't surgery. ;)


I guess I am saying it is a difficult thing they do and it is easy to sling abuse from the cheap seats. I think folks should "Walk a mile in another mans moccasins" before being so critical.
It's OK to be disappointed, even upset, to question how some things get missed but how that translates into so much venom towards Games Workshop and individual writers / scultors / etc. on this forum is quite beyond me.


Again, you are forgetting that many of us have to design complex solutions to actual business requirements. If we mess up and forget that a customer would take a "two lash army" it is not something that will make someone mad. It will instead cost our company millions. Obviously to some, this is viewed as no big deal since there are not millions at stake but I (and others) don't view it as a company putting out a clearly broken product and telling the customer to fix it if they want it to work.


This is hilarious. You know its a game right?

I just don't understand how people can get their knickers in such a twist.

They even state if in doubt, roll a bloody D6 and continue having fun. You're only a victim of rule lawyering if you let yourself. Make a call, continue playing, worry about the actual rule later (or not at all!).

Lanrak isn't discussing how some can claim, "It says I may rapid fire not that I must." This is about actual holes in the rules. Some are made by the rules and others are made by the FAQ.

Perhaps it is clearly that people that want a game that is a true test of generals should look elsewhere but that doesn't have to be the case.

Jedi152
16-06-2008, 11:58
(Note that this post is about FAQ's, not errata. Errata due to proofreading errors can and should be fixed ASAP).

The main problem is that today, it's all about serious spoonfed powergaming. Society is very competitive nowadays, and it reflects in the people playing the game. Whether it's for a tournament or just 'for fun', all people seem to care about is exploiting every possible rules loophole and nook and cranny to win as soundly as possible, and this leads to people wanting more and more watertight rules. People are also obsessed with being spoonfed rules, and desparately wanting to know what lists are 'official'.

The majority of FAQs are to plug these holes to stop people exploiting the rules and ruining the game for everyone else, or to stop people getting lost and confused because the rules aren't perfect.

These games are designed for fun, not for this serious gaming. Take me and my old gaming group. We designed lists based on the feel and background of the army, and using what models we liked the look of and loved to paint. If we noticed that the rules didn't cover a certain area, we used common sense. If that didn't prevail we rolled a dice. The games were played with the spirit for which they are intended. We had fun.

When GW are having to FAQ stuff like people being able to ride two mounts, people are getting the wrong end of the game.

BrianC
16-06-2008, 12:25
To use your earlier scenario, would the surgeon take an intern and hand him the scalpel and just walk away? Are these new guys coming in with training in logic and math theory? If so the learning curve should not be that steep, after all it isn't surgery. ;)I can sort of answer this one as I spent a while chatting to one of the "new" guys and I was quite curious about their induction. They have the GW design ethos drummed into them and have their work closely reviewed while allowing them freedom to work to the models and the brief. The closest analogy I can come up with would be a car mechanic getting a new apprentice to work buy themselves on an old junker (although its more a case of stay away from the Ferraris) with weekly reviews on progress.

Just to expand on what MDG said, I'm a firm believer in that there is a lot GW could be doing better (although rules do not bother me at all as I'm in the position were my group will just change them if we disagree with RAW), as it is with the vast majority of companies, but Saturday was neither the time or the place to have a debate with them about it. It would have been very churlish to get on your soap box and start orating on where GW is going wrong and what they need to do to fix it at what was meant to be a fun day, especially as it was put on gratis. Forums aside, opinions should be sought not offered.

dancingmonkey
16-06-2008, 12:37
I'm getting a bit confused about the hobby these days.
Maybe I'm wrong, and a bit weird, but here's my take on it.

I've been doing this for 13 years now. Constant, never had a "down time" where I have decided to put my toys away to play with beer and girls (I do that in my spare time ;)) I worked for GW for three years, and met lots of nice people, some of whom I still hook up with for beer and games.

I love painting. I'm fairly good, wona couple of low key comps, never entered Golden Deamon as I am just not that good. I paint everything to the highest possible standard, so my armies tend to be small, and largely unpainted.

However, I do also play. I have played 40k since 2nd, fantasy since 4th, Epic, Necro, BFG, BB, Mordeheim and so on. I also play PP and R's games. I play Zombie, Munchkin, Magic and anything else that crosses my path. But you know what the one consistent thing regarding them all is? I do them to have fun

I am not a tourney player, I have played in one tourney, (again, a small, low key event) it was a WM one. I cam third. Which was nice, but the whole day gave me a massive headache, not because of the people I played, not because at times WM can be more broken than a very very broken thing, not because if you take your eye of the ball for one second you lose (I lost the first game because I forgot my feat prevented special attacks!) but because I had to concentrate waaaay too hard on four games and play them in a very hurried timescale.

It wasn't that fun, pure and simple.

So I don't do tourneys.

Many of you who have played me know that if I can,I will roll a one. It just seems I offended the dice gods a while ago, and I can't make it up to them. If I got so uptight about the game that victory was actually of any concern, I would have had a heart attack by now. BB, I need a 2+ to dodge with a re-eoll, double ones. Epic, my guard need a 2+ to do anything, I fail three out of five activations. LOTR I managed to roll about 27 ones in a row!

A game with a core element of chance is just too random to get angry about.
GW are not the best in the world, but they ain't the worst either.
My buying from them has dropped, but more due to having waaaay to many models and not a lot (or any!) income atm.

I'm with Harry and co. The old days of house rules and silliness were great. We have lost sight ofthe point of thei hobby and turned it into a mock sport...

let it go folks, just grab some buddies and some dice, chuckle at the sill typos and what not (Black Guard lay down thier lies....) if a rule is so clearly badly written, make another one! Its what we used to do...

Sorry if the above makes no sense, or doesn't fit your world view, but seriously. We shunt thiny little plastic men around and chuck dice... how seriously do we really need to take it...

Peace...

Jon.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
16-06-2008, 12:40
I think the biggest problem people have with GW and related matters is sorting their own personal opinion from fact.

For example, Lanrak is of an opinion that GW produces shoddy rules and even worse books. Seeing as his is a minority voice, it would seem this is indeed just opinion, and not fact.

Templar Ben is of an opinion that GW are only out for money, and don't care about the end product as long as the money comes in. Again, this is a minority voice presented as absolute irrefutable fact.

Not a good place to be gentlemen.

ThousandPlateaus
16-06-2008, 12:47
I couldn't agree more with 152 and this situation seems to arise more from players in the US, where, as I understand it, games are much more difficult to come by due to the scattered demographic that GW has there, and those games tend to be either 'pick up and play' in stores, or tournaments.

In those instances I can understand where frustration arises with what might not be a water-tight rules set as those situations depend heavily on simply abiding by the rules and nothing more. However, this is pretty much the antithesis of the company ethos of GW, which is first and foremost a miniatures company who have designed games so that 'hobbyists' can utilise those miniatures; the games are simply a facilitator for people to have *fun* with. Admittedly, this is easier in the UK where gamers have much more regular contact with a) GW stores, and b) each other, either through a network of gamers that have grown and developed together, or gaming clubs formed of others who have simultaneously grown with the hobby and the company.

To complain about your perception of a 'shoddy product' when you are actively searching for a comprehensive, well-crafted, mathematically balanced Wargame is to completely misunderstand the position of GW and, frankly, silly and futile. If you desire a Wargame of that type there are plenty of others out there, even some made by GW, but you won't find that in either WHFB or 40k. What you will find in those two games is an incredibly well developed environment, supported by beautifully sculpted miniatures with endless scope for conversion, painting, narrative, thematics and good, honest, fun. Personally, that's more than enough to satisfy me, as it has done for the last sixteen years.

Jedi152
16-06-2008, 12:58
Me too! Thanks for that TS, that describes this situation perfectly, far better than i managed to!

mav1971
16-06-2008, 14:12
I'm pretty happy with the figures and they have got better over the years.

When I mail order something whether by phone or internet and they mess it up. I like it because I usually get something for free.

As for the rules. Are they perfect? No! But any game where you have so many rules their is always going to be people who try to find the loophole in the wording. And you know who you are!

The way some people talk so negatively about GW, I don't know why you keep buying stuff from them or play any of their games.

Heres an example for you. I used to work at an appliance store. I heard a customer yelling very loudly saying this was the fourth time something was wrong with her order. And I'm thinking, why are you still shopping here? Theres at least another dozen appliance stores in the city.

If you complain to GW about your problems and they don't fix them, go somewhere else. So if enough customers do that, they start losing money and realize they have to do something different or they go out of business.

Ward.
16-06-2008, 14:59
To make your analogy more correct, what if the surgeon decided that there was more money to be made on patient A and didn't really address patient B for years knowing there were very clear problems? The entire nursing staff told him the problems were there and they saw them everyday and even had some ideas on how to fix them but wanted to have the expert do it.

This is not a case where the developers get 100's of things right and one small thing slips through. This is a case more often where you have a computer program 90% working since we are talking about logic systems.


To make your analogy more correct, it would be closer to a surgeon inspecting a patient and noticing some work he did earlier not working the way he intended, it still does its job though. So instead of fixing it he focuses on something that needs his attention.


On that note can anyone actually think of a rule misinterpretation or a poorly outlined one that actually makes the game impossible to play? just curious.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
16-06-2008, 15:24
I can't.

We do run into situations not completely covered by the rules from time to time though, but it's usually a matter of what trumps what. I'm trying to think of an example, but I can't right now!

Chainsofsigil
16-06-2008, 15:42
Templar Ben is of an opinion that GW are only out for money, and don't care about the end product as long as the money comes in. Again, this is a minority voice presented as absolute irrefutable fact.

Not a good place to be gentlemen.

When a member of the design team says that "the rules are just the icing on the cake", and with Tom Kirby going on about giving men their "fix" of miniatures, I think it's pretty clear that they are only out for the money.

Lets face it MDG, your even parodying the flavour of the week style GW are hyping up and launching new armies in your signiture.

Codex: Daemons is another great example. "Soz those aren't Bloodletters anymore their Generic Lesser Daemons with a Bland Stateline, buy the new book plz". The sad thing is there are people out there who treat Codex's as holy tomes, and who genuinely won't just use the old Codex: Chaos Daemon stats like I will be doing.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
16-06-2008, 15:59
Yes. Thats right.

Having played Dark Elves for 5 years now, I have no right whatsoever to be even slightly excited about new rules and models coming my way to offer me a different way to play. None whatsoever.

And if you want to use the old rules, just make sure your opponent knows what he is up against beforehand, and i see no problem.

Your taking some pretty vague statements in your post and applying decidely definite definitions of what was meant by them....

IJW
16-06-2008, 16:08
On that note can anyone actually think of a rule misinterpretation or a poorly outlined one that actually makes the game impossible to play?
The obvious suspect would be the lack of rules for determining casualties for ordnance blasts, but apart from that it's often wilful attempts to break things, such as the 'impossible to charge' formation.

Plastic Rat
16-06-2008, 16:24
I think the biggest problem people have with GW and related matters is sorting their own personal opinion from fact.

For example, Lanrak is of an opinion that GW produces shoddy rules and even worse books. Seeing as his is a minority voice, it would seem this is indeed just opinion, and not fact.

Templar Ben is of an opinion that GW are only out for money, and don't care about the end product as long as the money comes in. Again, this is a minority voice presented as absolute irrefutable fact.

Not a good place to be gentlemen.

How does 'minority' opinion in one thread on Warseer make it any less fact that the counterargument that's being stated?

I remember many threads where more people have chimed in with the same opinions as Templar Ben and Lanrak. The GW apologists will still continue their argument regardless of how many voices of dissent they face, or the logic inherent in the arguments.

If 'minority' means so much to you about whether something is just opinion or not, let me add my voice to the minority.

GW rules are years behind the times. They're raving on about 'True Line Of Sight' like it's the best thing since Marilyn Monroe stood on a hot air vent. True line of sight has been around for ages. Have a look sometime at other games outside of 40k in the rest of the industry. Heck, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Rogue Trader use True Line of Sight?

What about reaction mechanics? Nearly every other game out there has SOMETHING for you to do on your opponent's turn. Or simply uses integrated turns. For crying in a bucket, Epic, by the SAME company and designers has simpler rules and bucket loads more depth. Go check it out sometime. Aeronautica Imperialis, simple rules, awesome depth, tactics and immersion and you can't just tell a buddy to roll your armor saves for you while you nip downstairs for a smoke.

Give Epic, Warmachine, Aeronautica Imperialis, Flames of War and Blood Bowl a try and then come back and tell me 40k has well written rules, and do it with a straight face.

As for FAQs and codices, I second everything Templar Ben and Lanrak have said.

So there we go, more 'opinion' to the 'minority' voice.

DISCLAIMER: I'd like to note however that I'm very happy to hear about the changes to White Dwarf and about the attitudes towards it from the design team. Seems somebody cares.

Additionally, I love the fluff in this game. I'll list the models and Mr Abnett as the biggest reasons I still spend money on this game currently. The art is also awesome by the way.

So, just give me a game with depth that I can use my toy soldiers in and I'll also be singing GWs praises with the rest of the choir.

Chainsofsigil
16-06-2008, 16:24
Yes. Thats right.

Having played Dark Elves for 5 years now, I have no right whatsoever to be even slightly excited about new rules and models coming my way to offer me a different way to play. None whatsoever.

And if you want to use the old rules, just make sure your opponent knows what he is up against beforehand, and i see no problem.

Your taking some pretty vague statements in your post and applying decidely definite definitions of what was meant by them....

Oops :cries:, alot of your past sig's were sarcastic so I assumed this one was too.

But I shouldn't have to use old rules, and risk getting dodgy looks from my opponent in doing so, because there was no reason for blandifying all the time-honoured Chaos daemons into one statline, other then making me buy the bleeding new Codex: Daemons!

I also read that officially your not allowed to ally and mix Chaos Marines with Daemons (can anyone confirm this please), and the sad thing is some people with both Codex's won't mix them, because they obey whatever the seemingly omnipotent Games developers say.

Brimstone
16-06-2008, 16:32
Nothing new seems to be arising from this thread just the same recycled arguements so I think it's best to kill it before someone gets carried away.

Thread Closed

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