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Jerrus
16-06-2008, 22:01
Since Demonic Gifts aren't Magic Items, does that meen that they are "visible"? As in you have to tell your opponent if he asks (like normal equipment).

And are Demonic Icons governed by the same "not Magic Items" rule as Demonic Gifts?

Lord Aries
16-06-2008, 22:25
Yes and Yes.

TheWarSmith
16-06-2008, 23:02
I'm not so sure about that one. I'd say no, then yes.

They're not magic items, but there's nothing saying that you have to reveal them. Yes, they're not "magic items", but they're not "mundane items" either. I believe they fall happily in the middle ground.

I mean, think about it, is there any reason you'd immediately know "hey, that funky daemon looks like he's hungry for souls", or "man, looks like that guy can re-roll 1 die per turn".

Some would be fairly obvious such as twin heads, winged, and many armed monstrosity, but others don't seem like they'd warrant immediately telling your opponent what they have. Especially the banners. That would suck if you had to immediately expose banners.

Lord Aries
17-06-2008, 00:29
Normally there is no rule against having to show your opponent anything... in fact you can roll dice in a little box and never show him what you rolled... it doesn't say you have to...

However there is this universal- Stop being a ******* ******* whorebag and use some common sense when it comes to sportsmanship.

There is no rule requiring you to show anything to your opponent, people do it as a common courtesy in the name of good sportsmanship.

druchii
17-06-2008, 01:20
Normally there is no rule against having to show your opponent anything... in fact you can roll dice in a little box and never show him what you rolled... it doesn't say you have to...

However there is this universal- Stop being a ******* ******* whorebag and use some common sense when it comes to sportsmanship.

There is no rule requiring you to show anything to your opponent, people do it as a common courtesy in the name of good sportsmanship.

There's sportsmanship
and then there's doing things just to do them.

You do NOT have to explain what a character is equipped with before the item is used. This is obviously the intent of the game and its designers because there are specific magic items (and spells?) which specifically require your opponent to reveal which unit has which magic items!

Calling someone names isn't a reason to do something, it's childish.

d

TheWarSmith
17-06-2008, 04:22
But part of the whole game is pondering "well, I don't know exactly what that guy has".

I'm not going to say whether it's a rule or not regarding exposind magical items, but it's certainly a common and massively accepted policy that if it's a special item, you don't have to reveal it.

I suppose you could argue that in the past, the only items that are typically allowed to be hidden are those that aren't chosen specifically from the unit entry(fanatics/etc. being exceptions). Now, daemon items are ALL listed IN the unit entry, so I dunno.

I will just use RAI. If it's something extremely obvious, then 1)I'll model it, and 2)you might be able to immediately know. But if I bought some internal skill that you'd never be able to know upon looking at my guy, I'm not going to reveal that until it take affect.

OldMaster
17-06-2008, 06:07
No, you should not reveal them if asked or in any other way, before it is used.
Bet that in the upcoming army books, things will "reveal magic items, runes, deamonic gifts and vampiric powers" as well as items which cancel al those.

MrBigMr
17-06-2008, 06:20
How does one "show" some of the gifts?
-Allure of Slaanesh. Boobs?
-Enrapturing gaze. Puppy eyes?
-Unnatural Swiftness. Doing the Matrix?

Weapons, armour, wings, etc. I can understand. But to tell the truth, there's nothing about the etherblade that would justify having to model it. The rules say "all attacks the daemon makes", not "all attacks done with the etherblade". So basicly it could also mean that the daemon's claws slice through matter (http://zebragirl.keenspot.com/images/entry20.jpg) rather than some arcane weapon.

It's once agains one of those things that'll split oppinions.

Zilverug
17-06-2008, 13:35
there's nothing about the etherblade that would justify having to model it. The rules say "all attacks the daemon makes", not "all attacks done with the etherblade". It's once agains one of those things that'll split oppinions.

Obsidian armour being armour (or not).
Etherblade being a blade (or not).

GW could have foreseen issues like these.
Really, they could have...

drugar
17-06-2008, 17:24
I would think that you do have to reveal demonic gifts, much like bloodline powers and the bretonnian equivalent (I forget the name off hand). Simply put, the only evidence we have that you don't need to reveal magic items is, there are items that force your opponent to reveal them (same goes for fanatics). If we decide that demonic gifts are close enough, then what else is close enough? Wood elf kindreds? Gnoblars on ogre characters? Great weapons and shields?

xragg
17-06-2008, 17:42
So its fair game to "hide" my altered? Only move him as if he had a movement of 5 until that opportune moment, then bam, charge 18" when you werent expecting it.

Loopstah
17-06-2008, 17:56
If you don't have to reveal Daemonic gifts then you also don't need to reveal:

Ogre Big Names
Brettonian Virtues
Vampire Powers
Wood Elf Kindreds
Lizardmen Spawnings

What's the consensus on those?

Oenghus
17-06-2008, 18:14
So its fair game to "hide" my altered? Only move him as if he had a movement of 5 until that opportune moment, then bam, charge 18" when you werent expecting it.

Sure thing. Any opponent who sees a wood elf character running around outside of a unit and doesn't expect an 18" charge (no matter how far you move the thing in preceding turns) needs to have his head examined anyway.

OldMaster
17-06-2008, 18:19
^ so true.

Long live the Alter kindred.

Lord Snerual
17-06-2008, 18:31
^ so true.

Long live the Alter kindred.

^ So true
Long live the Altr Kindred
Long live your answer

And no you don't have to reveal them. But then when you say you don't have to eveal spawnings nd stuff like that, MAYBE they don't, it is possible

MrBigMr
17-06-2008, 18:37
Sure thing. Any opponent who sees a wood elf character running around outside of a unit and doesn't expect an 18" charge (no matter how far you move the thing in preceding turns) needs to have his head examined anyway.
Alternative choice: the WE player is an idiot.
But it works as a deterrent really. When you don't follow any of the rules of engagements, your opponent doesn't know what to expect. It's a gamble, but sometimes works out.

Nurgling Chieftain
17-06-2008, 19:17
Sacred spawnings are supposed to be modeled. I'm dubious that upgrades which count against a model's magic item allowance but aren't magic items need to be modeled. Some of them, I'm not even sure how you'd model! A virtue? A name?

TheWarSmith
17-06-2008, 23:38
Whoa, back the upgrade train up. Spawnings must be announced/modelled. That'd be like me not telling you a unit is chosen. It says that in the books.

drugar
18-06-2008, 08:20
I think anything that isn't a magic item (or a fanatic/assassin in a unit) needs to be announced (if asked) and I'm curious if anyone can find any support in the rules that they don't (unless you want to start with the assumption that players don't have to reveal anything about their list, which is just absurd).

Otherwise, bloodlines, virtues, kindreds, big names, demonic gifts and icons etc. must be revealed (if asked, or you feel like it).

Loopstah
18-06-2008, 08:57
Whoa, back the upgrade train up. Spawnings must be announced/modelled. That'd be like me not telling you a unit is chosen. It says that in the books.

It doesn't say anywhere in the Lizardmen book that you have to model the Blessed Spawnings or that you have to tell your opponent what Blessed Spawnings you have.

DeathlessDraich
18-06-2008, 10:39
No, the rules do not directly state that Spawnings have to be announced or indeed anything including Standards etc but models do have to 'appear' to be correct to some extent.

Many Tournament rules specify WYSiWYG as far as possible which in the case of Spawnings would *suggest* that they have to be announced at the start since Spawnings do affecte appearance.

TheWarSmith
18-06-2008, 10:50
well, don't spawnings make saurus a different choice(special or rare)? If so, I would think you could ask to see the list and see which category it falls under.

Loopstah
18-06-2008, 11:16
well, don't spawnings make saurus a different choice(special or rare)? If so, I would think you could ask to see the list and see which category it falls under.

Yes they would, which would give it away that they had spawnings although not which.

But what about Lizardmen characters?
Which is more what I meant, as all the other items on the list are character specific.

The idea being that there are lots of other abilities/ gifts that affect a character and aren't magic items and gifts should be treated the same way.

If the people in your gaming group always say what virtues, vampiric powers etc... their characters have then you should do the same with gifts. If they don't say what Big Names, Spawnings, Kindred etc... their characters have then you wouldn't say what gifts you have as their aren't any rules about it.

drugar
18-06-2008, 17:33
So, wait, do some of you think I could surprise my opponent as soon as they contact a unit of dwarf warrior, oh, those are actually long beards! Or, would it be ok to not fill my opponent in on which units (of the same models) are skaven slaves and which ones are clan rats?

How are the unit and character upgrades such as gifts, bloodlines, virtues etc any different?

Godfiend
23-06-2008, 21:51
Wait... so if I paint my Saurus with purple scales because it looks cool, I can only take the spawning of Tepok? Can I even play them as normal Saurus?

I realize here it's really up to whatever my opponent and I agree on, but in a RAW, tournament-like environment, am I screwed because blue skin with blue scales is ugly?

And on topic, I'd say that you'd only have to reveal what is obvious. If I go with a blessed spawning that ISN'T Tepok, I'd reveal it as my opponent would have no clue what it is otherwise. If it's something like 2 heads, you'd have to reveal it. If it's regeneration, you'd have until the first save to hide it.

That makes the most logical sense to me. I bet RAW cares to argue, though.

drugar
24-06-2008, 06:27
As far as I know, there's nothing that says you necessarily have to model things like spawnings (it's just kinda cool if you do).

While your idea for gifts and icons is fairly reasonable, it is also unfortunately vague and up to interpretation (why I often prefer RAW over reason). What some people think is obvious may be different than what others think is.

GranFarfar
24-06-2008, 09:19
There are alot of questions regarding Deamonic gifts that need answearing.
When do you have to reveal them?
Are they weapons and armour? Can they be combined?

Ok... that was not alot, but I think some escapes my mind. I think it is clear that GW didn't foresee alot of the issues with introducing a new form of items section which earlier(6th edition) only existed to a limited extent. As it is right now the deamonic gifts is a little like the best from everything, without the drawbacks, and also if you ask me the gifts is what makes deamons overpowered. This last just being an oppinion regarding their power level.

Lord Aries
24-06-2008, 12:15
In most of the larger tournaments, people exchange lists before the game. We go over exactly what you have, and where it is. Its considered childish and unsportsmanlike to try and overly hide what you are taking. Some people make a list with magic items blacked out or whatever, but those people usually get bad sportsmanship. I know there are items to hide magic from you opponent and stuff like that in the game, but I've never seen a tournament game where people tried to do that. (I've only played in maybe 400 different tournaments in 10 states in the south-southwest part of the US- your area may be different)


I for one, think it makes the game better to just be upfront about what you got, and play. Sure if you have an assassin hiding in the unit, you would write that down ahead of time. If you take 2 units of NG and take fanatics in 1, and not the others, you had better write that down after deployment which is which, because its horrible sportsmanship otherwise.


To some degree, trying to hide things like that, makes you a *********... I know its written into the game in a small way, but it doesn't mean that you should go crazy with it. If your gaming group doesn't already practice full disclosure, then try it, and see if the game isn't more fun when you aren't constantly thinking... man that guy might be cheating me, or lying to me.

Lijacote
24-06-2008, 12:50
In most of the larger tournaments, people exchange lists before the game. We go over exactly what you have, and where it is. Its considered childish and unsportsmanlike to try and overly hide what you are taking. Some people make a list with magic items blacked out or whatever, but those people usually get bad sportsmanship. I know there are items to hide magic from you opponent and stuff like that in the game, but I've never seen a tournament game where people tried to do that. (I've only played in maybe 400 different tournaments in 10 states in the south-southwest part of the US- your area may be different)


I for one, think it makes the game better to just be upfront about what you got, and play. Sure if you have an assassin hiding in the unit, you would write that down ahead of time. If you take 2 units of NG and take fanatics in 1, and not the others, you had better write that down after deployment which is which, because its horrible sportsmanship otherwise.


To some degree, trying to hide things like that, makes you a *********... I know its written into the game in a small way, but it doesn't mean that you should go crazy with it. If your gaming group doesn't already practice full disclosure, then try it, and see if the game isn't more fun when you aren't constantly thinking... man that guy might be cheating me, or lying to me.

You'll notice that that's only your opinion, and the whole "people who hide things are stars" is an opinion too. And it's not cheating to have secrets. If I were a goblin, I wouldn't tell anyone about my Brimstone Bauble.

MrBigMr
24-06-2008, 13:09
If you have spells to reveal stuff, then it's safe to assume they're also hidden.

Around here people simply state the mundane gear of a units and what they are when deploying them. So "6 Chaos Chosen Knights with spears" or "20 Skinks with short bows." With characters, it's usually "Thane with great weapon and shield" etc. Magical items and such are not stated, as neither are gifts, magical banners or anything like that.

I don't remember anyone ever saying it's not right and demanding to know everything. It's not chess. It's good to get to know your enemy, know what his army can have and what he usually takes. If someone claims that to be cheating or bad sportmanship, they're just being naive. It's like poker. Half the game is keeping a face and reading your opponent at the same time.

But it also comes down to how people play. I laughed when I read the WHFB rulebook FAQ and it said charging with a unit (and failing) just to get it out of the way of another unit is cheating. People around here have doing that for years with no one ever claimed it to be cheating. It's a viable tactic, nothing wrong with that.

BloodiedSword
24-06-2008, 14:43
If your gaming group doesn't already practice full disclosure, then try it, and see if the game isn't more fun when you aren't constantly thinking... man that guy might be cheating me, or lying to me.

Generally the strategy involved is deeper and much more interesting when you need to deal not only with what you know for a fact your opponent has (e.g. a unit of 20 Bloodletters with full command) but also what he may or may not have (what upgrades does the Herald in that unit have?).

This is the way the majority of people do it, and it is the way that the GW developers intended it to be done (judging by the items costing around 20+pts whose only purpose is "reveal all magic items/upgrades in the unit" or "reveal all hidden information about this unit").

In the majority of cases, I find this method a lot more fun than the "reveal everything" approach. The exception is when I end up facing narrow minded paranoids who insist that because I do not reveal my entire list to them beforehand, I must be trying to cheat them.

In those cases the game is usually spoiled more by my opponent's insistence that I must be trying to cheat them than the loss of strategic depth.

drugar
24-06-2008, 16:40
I definitely think someone insisting that I'm cheating if I don't reveal my magic items at the start of the game (assuming this is not in the tournament rules) would make me want to mark them down on sports.

I have played with revealing and without and I'll admit, there is little difference. When you reveal magic items the game is more cold and calculated (which I'm not saying is bad, it's great to know you won't have any surprises when you kill that goblin shaman) but when you don't reveal them the game becomes a little more intense. You can bluff, acting like a unit or character may have something it really doesn't (I'm not saying doing something illegal, just move it in an overly bold way) plus whenever you make a decision, you must weigh in the possibility that you will be facing something much nastier than you had expected.

Godfiend
24-06-2008, 16:47
Isn't the whole cheating with hidden items debate nullified if you bring 2 lists? Bring one list to show your opponent, with magic items and anything else that you agree should be hidden covered up, and another list with everything revealed - both for your benefit and to share after the match.

Simple, really.

captain sarcasmo
25-06-2008, 20:17
this is generaly a sportsmanship question it depends on your attitude to the game. i have played a few people at tournements and they would reveal things like this and others wouldnt. its generaly your choice. theyres no rules saying you do or dont have to reveal them.